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Utopia Talk / Movie Talk / Fear the Walking Dead (TV)(pt2)
Cherub Cow
Sun Sep 04 03:38:41
Thread 1:
Cherub Cow
Sun Sep 04 03:39:00
Finally watched the episode! (S2-E9: "Los Muertos")

[tw]: "they're getting a little casual about the zombie disguise... a few blood swipes w/ no concern about the zombies nearby approaching"

Def. It used to be that even if covered in blood they still had to act pretty dead and not be seen talking (little Sam would agree), but in that scene they were having a conversation in full view of a horde.. :/
..maybe like goldfish the dead forget that someone was talking so long as there's a few seconds of delay ;p

[tw]: "the shopping cart system didn't make much sense either... in many ways :p"

Yeah! Nick could have put those little cake things on top somewhere after making sure that they'd gotten everything that she wanted. Also no way that a former cartel member wouldn't just cut off Nick's hand and ask questions later :)

- they must have added budget for crane shots... in the opening scenes they had a pretty gratuitous one when Madison/Strand's group entered the hotel
- if the pharmacist was really bitten by a walker (as opposed to a dog or something) but is okay... immune? It can't be that he randomly found a cure?
- I'm not too judgemental of their getting drunk.. apocalypse or not, people can't be eternally hyper-vigilant.. but in an open area? loudly playing the piano? leaving the front door open? :/
..that scene *was* at least kind of like the "Shaun of the Dead" scene where all the zombies reach over the bar :D
- Ophelia just wandering somewhere? They really wanted to make it seem like she killed herself, but after the misdirection she'll probably have to be somewhere else.
- kind of neat ending in the church! I like their idea that "Los Muertos" represent the two deaths that surround life pre-birth/post-birth. Pretty rad to have that be a foundation of their new religion :D .. Nick seemed a little too troubled by that speech considering that he probably didn't understand any of it XD
the wanderer
Sun Sep 04 15:55:45
i don't understand it either :p

i think Travis' story up this week... they should have a map at the start to let us know where everyone is
Cherub Cow
Sun Sep 04 18:30:24
"i don't understand it either :p"

It did have some self-contradictory statements..
"From death we come and to death we deliver ourselves. They say the Lord created the world and that to Him we owe our lives. But this is not so. Life is a sigh between two deaths. And here life is running out. Our parents, our brothers, our friends, and our neighbors are leaving. Their time has come. The great pilgrimage of souls, the immense migration of the dead, has begun. But what about us? Not us. We were counted among the dead. We know death, and it will not take us. We won't leave. This world is for us. The faithful. The chosen ones. The survivors. We have died once and now no longer fear. The children of the resurrection. From death we come, and to death we deliver ourselves [line chanted]. But never will we leave."

Like it doesn't make sense when he says, "Our parents [etc.] are leaving," if he means that their parents have become walkers and that that's why they'll be leaving.. because where do they think that the walkers will go if they don't intend to kill them? But it makes sense if in that line he was talking about people who died before this zombie apocalypse because *they* don't get to come back to life. In that case all of the living peeps and the zombies "never ... leave," so they think that they've joined death and have become eternal (part of the infinite two deaths instead of the finite one life)... then, if Nick understood any of it, he might be weirded out by the quality of that eternal life, since being a walker forever would be pretty bad :p
the wanderer
Sun Sep 04 18:45:06
but i don't understand why they have the fence up if they believe they aren't meant to die :p
Cherub Cow
Sun Sep 04 18:49:29
I guess they're just posers :D
Cherub Cow
Mon Sep 05 15:51:18
@S2-E10: "Do Not Disturb"

Nice father/son camping trip ;D
Not sure how many times Chris has to show Travis that he's a casual murderer.
I do kind of like what the writers have been going for with them: Travis wanting to hold onto the past order (stopping somewhere and making roots) and Chris being fully into the new order (opportunistic nomads). If Travis can get Chris to show more restraint (like Chris seems to have done by not killing those three boys at the store), then in theory Chris might end up fitting in well with Rick's group — strategic murderers ;D

And that hotel manager was basically like that kid who held the door closed at that Orlando club shooting! :p ..
Not a bad episode! Fewer plot holes than usual ;D
the wanderer
Fri Sep 09 17:02:58
just got around to watching

Travis probably wishing he had never gone after Chris... but those other kids did paint a nice picture of the apocalypse (no cops, no jobs, no bills, etc :p)

i didn't really understand what was going on in the hotel with the keymaster & the guests who hated her (i mean i know why they hated her but not sure why they were still living in the hotel & needing the keys)
Cherub Cow
Sat Sep 10 02:14:41
Yeah! Like they had 2 months or however long it's been to climb balconies, go to other places, and stuff.. Seems odd that they'd seem so similar to their flash-back selves..
Cherub Cow
Mon Sep 12 23:35:41
@"Pablo and Jessica" (S2-E11)

Strand seems to be carrying the show :p
..nice sequence on the pier. Otherwise there just isn't much going on in this show...
the wanderer
Tue Sep 13 01:41:09
yeah, it's not as good as the other one
Cherub Cow
Tue Sep 13 18:24:48
Definitely :/ .. Was hoping that it was building to some kind of reversal of fortunes, but I'm doubting the writers. Plus if that takes 4 more episodes then I don't really care. The main WD show goes into interesting existential or political topics in their non-action episodes, but FWD just spends time on dumb family topics (Madison to Strand: "I raised her [to be self-reliant]". Madison to Alicia: "You raised yourself" -- okay so, you get that she's self-reliant because you didn't raise her?). They seem to be trying to make Madison a kind of diplomatic Rick as group leader, but she hasn't faced any significant opposition yet (reconciling a wedding party with the caterers is hardly significant).. To be seen
... And Alejandro, this person that Nick is helping, looks set up to be wasted as a cure, since he's more interested in being a messiah than a source for cure harvesting. I guess it would be fun if Jenner at the CDC turns out to be alive still in this FWD timeline (before CDC explodes) and hears about Alejandro only for Alejandro to die before he can help.. but that wouldn't fix the mundane episode-to-episode writing :/
Cherub Cow
Mon Sep 19 04:10:06
@"Pillar of Salt" (S2-E12)

- Nick really seems to like this faith stuff.. more of the show's weird factor.
- Maybe Alejandro isn't totally cured.. maybe like Alice from "28 Weeks Later" (the mother), he's partially infected and partially immune, so it makes him a little crazy sometimes.
- And Madison finding more cause to be stupid.
- But finally one of the characters experiences some threat! When Strand was stabbed I cared for a minute. This show needs to get moving..
the wanderer
Mon Sep 19 22:45:56
they made the zombies kinda meaningless with this just-grab-one-and-smear-yourself thing
Cherub Cow
Tue Sep 20 15:29:08
Yeah it's gotten too trendy. Even random colony peasants do it. :p
..I guess they're trying to get all of that stuff out of the way so that new dramas can happen (characters caught up with audience information about the zombies).. but that just goes back to their writers being boring and not making use of the information :/
the wanderer
Tue Sep 27 01:51:57
the new episode was decent

but not sure why they were obsessed with killing that kid instead of just leaving (there was an explanation but didn't make much sense)

was kinda hoping Alicia would push Madison over the balcony near the end after the 'your dad committed suicide & i like your brother more than you' speech...
Cherub Cow
Tue Sep 27 02:22:15
"the new episode was decent"

Definitely! They finally have some interesting conflicts in place. Chris' friends showing up at the gates [without Chris?] could be especially fun.

"but not sure why they were obsessed with killing that kid instead of just leaving (there was an explanation but didn't make much sense)"

Yeah that was very strange logic. It was basically, "we don't want to be left to turn into walkers — if it happens to one of us, we'll put that person out of their misery"... but the big mental flaw for Chris and his new friends was that they don't see the difference between dying immediately/soon of a walker bite and simply needing medical attention. Crazily short-term thinking. It's like that scene in "Canadian Bacon" where one of the soldiers stubbed his toe or something so he was immediately executed like a horse ;p

"was kinda hoping Alicia would push Madison over the balcony near the end after the 'your dad committed suicide & i like your brother more than you' speech..."

+1 .. they were playing some dark music so I was expecting someone to die there... I guess Alicia can at least be happy that Madison has decided to stop sheltering them with deception. Madison seems to get that for peeps to grow up they have to know even the volatile truths, though that means there's a backlog of lies to reveal..
the wanderer
Sun Oct 02 21:03:04
a double episode tonight
the wanderer
Sun Oct 02 22:02:17
the family gettin' their murder on

Ofelia doesn't seem important enough to have her own story line... but i guess possibly is going to merge w/ Depp's Trump supporters engagement
Cherub Cow
Mon Oct 03 01:13:13
Oh I thought it was going to be another week! Regular Walking Dead doesn't come back until October 23rd.. that leaves two weeks without zombies?? D:
..might not get to watch finale until tomorrow :/
Cherub Cow
Wed Oct 05 03:28:00
@"Wrath" (S2-E14)

Guess Chris found out way too quickly that being treated like a horse when you have an injury isn't so great ;p
..it seemed like the Chris flashbacks had a coat of Travis' imagination though (that saturated/overcast effect combined with the cutaways when Travis heard a new piece of news and squinted his eyes; like the camera going into Travis' mind more so than the actual reality?). So even though it was maybe pretty definitive that Chris was killed, that flashback wasn't necessarily from those two boys' report of the story. Like if the writers wanted, they could have Chris survive his leg injury and tell Travis that the other two were too scared to kill him or something. The boys' changing stories could even contribute to that..: in one version Chris goes through the windshield, but in another they "pulled him out," and after they seem to be telling the truth the visual flashback had Chris pulling *himself* out... blerg. Seems very likely that Chris *is* dead and that the flashback was supposed to be objective, but I think the writers gave themselves an out..

Madison yelling "that's enough!" through the door seemed pretty stupid.. like.. if you *really* want him to stop, then break a window! :p
..given her later speech, probably that's exactly the situation; she probably just sat there tapping because she wanted Travis to do it..

@"North" (S2-E15)

Kind of fun having them play with a "noble lie" situation. They directly said that the physician's lie might be okay simply because it got the group to behave (faith in a lie because of the power of a lie). Looks like they'll keep up the lies for the sake of faith, unless they have some fun plans for that :)

The cartel peeps flake again!! :p .. I know it was a big mass of zombies, but with so many armed peeps... just sit down on those steps and take your time! :D

"Depp's Trump supporters engagement"
lol :D .. it'll be great if that turns out to be the case .. like they think that it's their duty to protect the border or something :D

"the family gettin' their murder on"
Yeah!! :D
Even Alicia had a random stabbing. And Madison totally supports sociopathy as a rule. When she said that she'd been living like that for a while, I wonder if that was a justification for Kim Dickens' not having lots of range with this character ;D

Things improved these last few episodes! I'm trying to keep in mind that even the regular Walking Dead series didn't improve significantly until midway through season 2. These characters have finally started getting change and conflict in their histories. Madison&Travis' relationship could be particularly unhealthy :)

..wonder if Strand will really be leaving the show :(
Wed Oct 05 03:31:26
Strand is in season 3
Cherub Cow
Wed Oct 05 03:44:34
Cool! Was there a season 3 preview?
Wed Oct 05 08:46:29
Not that I saw, but Kirkman said Strand will be in the next season.
Cherub Cow
Wed Oct 05 11:50:05
Oh good. He's probably the best actor on the show..
the wanderer
Wed Oct 05 12:01:20
if Ofelia doesn't become a sex slave, then it's not realistic :p

pretty sure Chris is dead, unlikely they would think finally saying they killed him would pacify his dad... (plus *spoiler* he was on Talking Dead as mystery guest like most main characters who die :p)
Cherub Cow
Wed Oct 05 13:57:06
Aw :( .. my theory there may be over then. Did he mention that he had to pack up his apartment and move away like Emily Kinney did when her Beth character was killed?

"if Ofelia doesn't become a sex slave, then it's not realistic :p"
The way those border troops targeted Nick's gf, Luciana ("boys! we got a bleeder!" — because she was shot or because she happens to be female?), it made me wonder if they were doing some kind of "28 Days Later"-type "let's re-start the world with forced breeding" situation. They may be ultrasurvivalists who have plenty of weapons and resources but no generational sustainability..
the wanderer
Wed Oct 05 15:36:12
Robert Kirkman was there again too... but i don't really remember much of what Chris said but wasn't as sad as Emily's guilt trip :p
Cherub Cow
Wed Oct 05 15:42:15
Emily's guilt trip was amazing :D .. especially with the writer sitting in to listen to what he did to her XD
the wanderer
Sun Jun 04 18:56:55
new season starts tonight w/ an extended length episode
Cherub Cow
Mon Jun 05 00:45:10
Oh wow!! I knew it was out in June but didn't realize it was this early.
*looks for the episode*
Cherub Cow
Mon Jun 05 03:57:18
@S3-E1&E2: "Eye of the Beholder" and "The New Frontier"

That was actually.. good! :D
The writers clearly decided to do a quick shake-up. Travis was a big decision, and that made way for Madison to go full Rick Grimes. She basically said Rick's line from Walking Dead S5-E12:

[Rick, WD]: "We'll make it work. And if they can't make it? Then we'll just take this place"
[Madison, FWD]: "We're going to stay here. We're going to make it our home, even if we have to take it over."

— except Madison added in that stuff about this being fate and accepting that or whatever :p

..Also got a little bit more acting range out of Kim Dickens (Madison) in episode 2. She's usually the same tiny range of expressionless (I think that she thinks that she's being stoic, but it really seems to be near-total expressionlessness), but she actually had to react to the Travis news, so that forced her to step it up. But now right back to the thousand yard stare? ;)

The writing during that compound scene in the first episode seemed weird and choppy to me, but I guess it makes sense if we accept that the crazy brother had compartmentalized a lot of his bad decisions and had surrounded himself with fellow sociopaths. That doesn't quite heal all of the mistakes that Madison's crew was making during their escape, but okay. It also doesn't fix the way that one sociopath soldier was pulled through the vent, but the gore effect there was really kewl, so that's more than okay ;D

That crazy brother seemed more interested in Madison than in Felicia (Felicia probably being more similar in age to him), so it looks like some mother issues will have time to appear in his story. And will Ofelia turn out to be in this compound? Or maybe the person who shot the helicopter was the same one who caught her...

Anyways! This opener caught my interest! :D
Can they keep it going?? ;p
the wanderer
Mon Jun 05 09:31:07
i had a Sarah Connor sense for Madison (rather than Rick)
and i still don't really like her...

and you mean Alicia not Felicia i think... maybe Eyeball is a MILF guy... he certainly forgave her quick when giving her a ride

Nick seemed really upset about Travis %p i mean its not his real father but still...
Cherub Cow
Mon Jun 05 15:57:32
Yeah not much reaction from him.. maybe because they want to build up his scariness-cred?
An oops! Yeah, Alicia, not Felicia. I thought I checked that before posting ... guess they're not all memorable ;)
Tue Jun 06 00:28:00
Bye Felicia!
Cherub Cow
Wed Jun 14 02:49:31
@S3-E3: "TEOTWAWKI"/"The End of the World as We Know It"

Mother issues confirmed! XD
Troy (crazy brother) even had a blonde mother, so that worked out for Madison. Then Madison putting a napkin on his lap.. lulz.. she's going to mess with his head :D

Nick's little scuffle with Troy might also have revealed that Madison's group is probably closer to the sociopath side than the "good" side. Madison also mentioned that Travis was their [moral?] compass, so she might start doing progressively more messed up stuff in his absence. Makes me wonder if Madison's group will eventually become a villain for the Walking Dead peeps :p

The added info on the Jeremiah Otto compound peeps (namely that supply bunker) made them out to be ultra-survivalists, which is kewls. Nice to see this side of the post-apocalypse, because this sort of thing had only existed in half-measures on the main WD show. Still, they seem to be saying via those "Jesus" teens that the compound has hidden some weakness.. like that these peeps can't actually fight... Hopefully the writers were confining that to the teens, because the type of people who hoard weapons and apocalypse supplies would *probably* know how to fight, even if those peeps skipped teaching their children.

Daniel back! That's why no one can trust a show that kills characters off screen ;) ... maybe Dr. Exner from season 1 is still alive too? And Celia? ;)

[tw]: "i had a Sarah Connor sense for Madison (rather than Rick)
and i still don't really like her..."

I'm definitely getting that sense! And in this episode that weapons stockpile really spoke to her :D
the wanderer
Wed Jun 14 09:26:58
i couldn't even remember what happened to Daniel :p
i need a new memory

so you think Madison is trying to mess with Troy not trying to help him? i was assuming she was having compassion after the video... perhaps not

so maybe try to turn him into her puppet & take over the place
the wanderer
Wed Jun 14 09:30:01
i consulted the walking dead wookieepedia for a refresher

Cherub Cow
Thu Jun 15 02:34:28
"i couldn't even remember what happened to Daniel :p
i need a new memory"

I wasn't sure myself! I just went to the other thread for a refresher, though :p

"so you think Madison is trying to mess with Troy not trying to help him? i was assuming she was having compassion after the video... perhaps not"

Oh true! It's possible that she was helping. Jeremiah Otto did also have that line that resonated with her (the one about parents messing up their kids early but then spending their lives trying to fix their kids). The episode also showed via Alicia&"Jesus" kids that peeps like Troy have become necessary for survival, and via Nick they brought up that people would suspect the family if anything happened to Troy...

It could be like that Rick/Morgan thing where Rick wasn't admitting that peeps could change, but Morgan still thought that they could (that is, Madison having a similar internal curiosity going on)... She saw how things went with Chris (someone who was changing for the worse), but Chris rejected her help whereas Troy wants her presence..
So TLDR: maybe she's legit trying to be a positive influence while also getting the perks of having tabs on Troy's activities :D
the wanderer
Mon Jun 26 00:17:25
someone should've pointed out to Madison that Travis plummeted to his death elsewhere so the crash site really had no significance to her

one of these times team Clark or Troy is gonna hold a weapon to the others head and do it already

eww @ Raven
Cherub Cow
Mon Jun 26 20:53:42
"someone should've pointed out to Madison that Travis plummeted to his death elsewhere so the crash site really had no significance to her"
Maybe she was hoping for zombie Travis to visit ;)

Troy needed to step up on that one! Now Madison will be in charge of his unit! ;p ... though that was some generous story-writing that the big guy suddenly respected Madison and that she was fine and in front while everyone else's feet were bleeding...

Forgot to watch last week, so caught up this week:

S3-E4: "100"
They've managed to change Daniel's character into something more interesting by getting rid of his craziness and saying that he was trained by the CIA. Nice upgrade.

S3-E5: "Burning in Water, Drowning in Flame"
Kind of silly when peeps (here Alicia) lose the will to live in the apocalypse, but I guess it's a nice show that these peeps previously didn't actually have anything inside them worth living for. And now she's found something (base jumping) ;)

Always funny to me when peeps can sneak up within a few feet like the natives did at the crash site. Very convenient. That rivalry seems like a pretty comical story line, but it could be fun :p

And I guess Luciana was on a similar wall as the one that Ofelia passed? Could mean that they'll end up together, and for simplicity it could be that they'll be with the native group? Or is there a third group?
the wanderer
Tue Jun 27 20:18:13
I vaguely recall Ofelia being captured but don't think it was by native Americans...

they don't do a good job of making me remember what people are doing or where they are... but perhaps some fault is mine :p
Cherub Cow
Thu Jul 06 06:00:26
@S3-E6: "Red Dirt"

Peeps started to act pretty stupidly in this episode. Pretty clear that either the writers don't have any military knowledge or the militia peeps just have no clue how to manage a defense (maybe just the latter, since Troy's friend broke down "game over, man!" style when they got to the gates)... like, they should have had snipers/lookouts higher on the ridges after they knew about their new rivals (before the fires)... and Alicia's BF just handed her a loaded rifle for her first time on a range? :D

Madison's speech was pretty painful. I tried to pay more attention to the words than the delivery, because I guess we still have to accept Kim Dickens' monotone. She also didn't raise her voice for that speech, which makes me wonder if any of those peeps would have been able to hear her ;p

Still! Was cool to see Madison recognizing that Troy has become important to their survival. Seemed like she gave him the speech that Dexter's father gave Dexter about controlling his sociopathy constructively. Fingers crossed for zombie Travis making an appearance at some point ;)
the wanderer
Thu Jul 06 10:46:32
maybe they're going for a 'what if Shane had come out on top' group
Cherub Cow
Fri Jul 07 22:19:39
Seems like it :D
They also seem to be making a lot of statements on West Coast U.S. gun possession politics. Seems like kind of a non-issue in a zombie apocalypse.. like it's pretty funny that Nick didn't want to own a gun, given that zombies want to eat them and people have been actively shooting at them.
Cherub Cow
Sun Jul 09 03:02:40
Let's see if I actually remember to watch the show tonight ;D ... I keep forgetting until days after the episode has aired
Cherub Cow
Mon Jul 10 04:07:23
Oh wows.. didn't realize that this week was going to be a double-episode mid-season finale. That was a fast half-season at just 6 weeks for 8 episodes..

@S3-E7: "The Unveiling"

What a surprise: Ofelia is allowed to go near the mess tent for Otto's group even though she's *obviously* in a position to be a spy/traitor, and coincidentally half the camp gets sick or dies from poisoning — if *only* there was some way to have seen this coming :|

..amazing 'intelligence' happening there. And why? Because Madison vouched for Ofelia? Because Ofelia had some bruises? They should have put Ofelia in a confined room with no windows and no valuable information within sight, but instead they let her walk around with Madison, who wasn't even paying attention. And even before that they put Ofelia in the supply bunker?? "Oh hey, random person from an opposing camp, just stay here where you can count our supplies and munitions. This information couldn't possibly be useful for an enemy, could it?" ... terrible, terrible writing. Almost unbelievably terrible writing ("almost" because I haven't *completely* forgotten about season 1 and 2.. just partially forgotten ;D ..). Did the writers really think that audiences wouldn't suspect Ofelia? She wasn't even likeable/trustable *before* she spent a huge chunk of time away from the group..

..Did notice from this episode that it was *Otto* that found Ofelia in the desert before. After Ofelia and Otto's conversation (where they knew each other and she clearly did not appreciate his prior treatment of her) I went back to S2-E14 ("Wrath"), and sure enough, they even show Otto's face when he captures her in that scene. Guess I just never recognized him.. this show really has a lot of forgettable moments ;)

@S3-E8: "Children of Wrath"

..oh, they start the episode with scenes from that "Wrath" episode, so I wasted effort looking up the other episode ... The episode naming makes sense now ("Wrath" and "Children of Wrath"). A little message on how those brutal actions affect the keeeedz ;p

[Alicia]: "We're on the wrong side"
lol, wut? :D
The Native group clearly has a racial motive (as racially-motivated as Otto appears to be) where they've put themselves back into a narrative against a European invader, so I'm not sure how Alicia thinks that she could/should change "sides". Was that a joke about white guilt at Alicia's expense? ;D

Have to wonder if Walker would fully accept Otto's head and not want to attack the ranch anymore. Walker's stated motive previously was to reclaim ancestral land, so I'm not sure how resolving a *personal* matter (vengeance for Otto's killing of Walker's uncle, father, and another two) has changed that imperative. If anything it looks like a tactical failure for the Otto ranch, because the Natives just convinced Madison to kill one of her own with no exchange beyond a promise. If Walker has changed the rules just because Madison showed some admirable warrior spirit, that would also be ridiculous — if his former motive had any truth, she would still be a European invader in his eyes.

This episode also just highlighted that that song "Stand By Me" even sounds bad when it's re-mixed. Play some Slayer!! ;D
Cherub Cow
Mon Jul 10 04:40:12
*"if *only* there [were] some way to have seen this coming :|" (subjunctive!)

Oh, lol: Otto was shot in the forehead, but they're going to pretend that he killed himself?? lol... okay yeah, sure. If you scroll down to a comment by "Soylent Green" in this article ( http://www...s-how-awful-white-peopl-257771 ) there's a bunch of other pretty-valid complaints, like "A character literally just admitted to having plot armor." The article isn't worth reading, though, so don't bother :p

Season 3 started well enough, but there was so much garbage in this mid-season finale... I'm not sure that I'll continue watching when it picks up again. Then again, it premieres September 10th and will wrap up just before the normal Walking Dead show returns.. so maybe? :/
Mon Jul 10 23:29:45
West coast avengers!
the wanderer
Mon Jul 10 23:52:28
it was worth rewatching that old episode just to confirm they showed his face

I didn't hate it as much, but there were definitely issues :p

and I didn't quite get the ending... the body was in the casket right? where Madison went for the head... so what did the sons take that was wrapped up?
Cherub Cow
Tue Jul 11 01:40:16
[McKobb]: "West coast avengers!"

I'm still just hoping that this has all been an excuse to give Rick a new villain after Negan ;D

[tw]: "and I didn't quite get the ending... the body was in the casket right? where Madison went for the head... so what did the sons take that was wrapped up?"

They edited that so poorly.. I think their intention was that the sons wrapped up the body, put it into the casket for a funeral, then Madison opened the casket and took the head.. so maybe the sons wouldn't be aware of her deal?
the wanderer
Tue Jul 11 14:42:30
yeah, that's probably it... maybe that casket/barn area was supposed to have some meaning that I don't recall... or some other artistic reason to show things in weird order that I don't understand :p
Mon Sep 18 19:44:23
Wow. So American survivalists in the apocalypse are going to give over their guns to a bunch of Indians? I thought California was going to have a show comparable to the Georgia crew.
the wanderer
Sun Sep 24 21:51:31
show night...spoiler warning

what's it gonna take for someone to kill Troy!
the wanderer
Mon Oct 02 22:29:00
S3E13 was Sunday

our protagonists really seem to bring ruin wherever they go
Cherub Cow
Tue Oct 10 22:28:03
Finally caught up! I'd been an episode or 2 behind and didn't want to risk spoilers..

S3E09 — "Minotaur"

Umm…. Yeah that key handover scene made no sense.

[Madison]: "Give him the key, Jake."
[Alicia]: "What are you doing?"
[Madison]: "They’ll control the weapons. All of them. We’ll sweep the ranch for the rest."
[Jake]: "That makes us prisoners on our own land, Madison."
[Madison]: "Better than the alternative."

Umm, no it’s fucking not better. Option 1 is lock the weapons up with shared control, option 2 is apparently to give Walker personal access and do whatever he wants (which at that moment sounds like vengeance)... but Jake decides to hand over the key?? It’s a pretty hilarious narrative that they’re trying to invent: one where somehow it makes sense in the post-apocalypse for gun control to flourish. And they’ve tried to paint Troy as a gun-crazy lunatic who goes blood drunk when people try to take his weapons.

Kind of a bad attempt at being iconic with the imagery in the ending scene (Madison slowly de-cocking the lever and holstering, and Troy having to walk away). A bad attempt since Madison can’t act, and the dialogue had no gravity.

S3E10 — “The Diviner”

Why would camp leadership (Madison and Walker) go on the water search mission instead of sending scouts? Did they just Star Trek this?

[Madison]: "Do you have children? ... Talk to me when you have children."
Lol... Madison *would* say some dumb shit like that XD

...Alicia putting Nick’s pistol on the table was a little bit too much like a TV movie’s drug intervention moments. Like Nick is now addicted to free weaponry (marijuana!) and needs a lecture on how gun control (don’t smoke reefer!) is the smart choice for society and that he shouldn’t be hanging out with those delinquent friends of his that give him gateway firearms ("You could end up on heroin again!"). "Look at what [using firearms] has done to you! [Smoking cigarettes and looking cool and aloof on the couch!]" ... I did like that Walker’s dog metaphor got some energy in that scene with Alicia wanting to turn Nick away from Madison’s overbearing influence.

Okay... so Ofelia wanted to avoid being public because she feels bad about killing half the ranch’s population, but she thinks it’s okay to become one of the only armed deputies of the nation (in the nation's most public position)??

The biggest guy in the ranch makes a David and Goliath reference? The writers have no self-control, and they apparently don’t have any sense of their extended actor list. That is, they basically just gave a viking a Jewish line — they had a character say something that they themselves would say, not that the character would say.

And the ending scene... "No... put down your gun [the reefer]. We can solve our differences by banding together as a community!"
This is seriously becoming a made-for-TV-movie drug PSA... but like, guns instead. What a fucking joke.

S3E11 – "La Serpiente"

They made pretty quick work of the water situation... all of these happy situations make me hope for everything to fall apart for them ;p

S3E12 – "Brother's Keeper"

Well-directed intro to the episode. Where the hell did that come from?
...but then the writing was right back to shit with that Alicia/Nick conversation. She couldn’t even sell that line in her own tone: "You share the same self-destruction [with Troy]"
Wow that's very insightful for you to say — and also very out of character. Did you just read directly from the writer notes?
[FWD Writers]: "We want Alicia to say something about how Nick and Troy share the same kind of self-destruction... Hmm.. how about we have her say, 'You share the same self-destruction'? Got it!"

@Troy’s horde: finally, the "Reckoning" I've wanted too >:D

@Nick hitting Jake, causing him to fall into a pack of walkers: retard mode engaged! Or just more bad writing? Difficult to tell if the characters have no brains or just the writers.

That ranch defense was super sad. Everyone was just wearing t-shirts and apparently only had single magazines (the ones already loaded in their rifles). No one geared up? Even Coop, who apparently was supposed to be a tough character, just went out in slow motion while the actors apparently waited for a better set to be built. Did they blow the budget making those RVs move and didn't have anything left for extras and shot effects, or was this part of their continued (lame) attempt at minimizing the presence of firearms in the scenes where firearms obviously would have been playing a major part in any real sense? Or do we really pretend that the post-apocalypse could work with pacifist weaponry? How far do the writers need to take this experiment before seeing how stupid it is?

S3E13 – "This Land Is Your Land"

Nick still very casually forgetting that he can use the grenade launcher to move the horde somewhere else?
[Nick]: "Your brother’s dead because you brought a horde down on us."
Umm, no, I’m pretty sure that Jake died because you hit him in the back of the head instead of letting him kill his brother. You also probably could have pulled him backwards instead of pushing him off a ledge into some walkers. Basically you fucked up.

lol@Alicia’s paper math calculating [for dramatic effect] how long the bunker will have oxygen. "Hmm, according to the cubic feet of this room — which I had time to measure — and based on the average oxygen consumption of a grown adult in terms of cubic feet — which is data I have available — I calculate that x number of grown adults will deplete the air in this room within 2 hours!" Like.. why the paper BS and the time estimates? Why not just drop that garbage and say, "Hey, this is a sealed room; we'll run out of air if we don't fix this vent as quickly as possible"? Would that be too much like 2002's "Resident Evil" lab scene?

[Old Man]: "There's not enough ammunition to shoot us all."
Wait, what? There isn’t enough ammunition in the supply bunker at a hyper-survivalist’s ranch to shoot the 10 or so of you? Are you fucking kidding me? How the fuck did the ammunition disappear? Was it the four or so shots that were fired in the 2-minute ranch defense? The writers have gotten so desperate not to use firearms that they've just invented plot points.

lol@Alicia leaving the room hyperventilating after killing that old man. I’m pretty sure the air benefits that you just earned were burned immediately afterwards ;D

[Old Woman]: "They need you, [Millennial Idiot], because you’re [so incompetent that it’s endearing?]"
Thank you so much, random old woman actor who was trusted to carry this scene with nostalgia and grace but who someone never showed up on casting's radar and thus was comically irrelevant and just another useless notch on Alicia's "I'm growing up so good!" belt :|

Wow, euthanasia, then 9/11 references, then post-9/11 vet PTSD — all in about 5 minutes.. the writers on this show have gone full "made for TV movie" ... they’re just checking all the boxes and hoping something hits.
[Colbert]: "Emmy please!"

The suffocation death scene wasn’t too badly done (dead rising while Alicia was struggling to stay conscious), it’s just a shame that so much bad writing was necessary to make that 30 second idea possible.

S3E14 — "El Matadero"

Aw :( .. poor Ofelia.. that bite reveal scene almost made me forget how bad her script has been this season (the captivity story and going "Native"). She might be the only character left that matter[ed]. Pretty sure I don’t like any of the others anymore.
..Nevermind! Strand can still tell it like it is, apparently. :p
(Referring to his scene where he confronted Madison about supply waste). Also looks like he has some special item for some random Thunderdome person. I'm sure it's been revealed, but I don't care enough to obsess about it ;)

..Good line by Taqa ("Put an end to this, even if it does get us all killed.") That was a good perspective on not necessarily playing it smart but doing right by oneself for once.

...wow. Good scene with Ofelia and then Daniel.. :'(

This episode was almost like a throwback to the non-Ranch episodes that weren’t all garbage. Figures that they’d write a decent one just before next week's finale double episode ;p
the wanderer
Tue Oct 10 23:56:15
i'm gonna disagree with one of your few positive comments :p... what's up with Madison giving no warning to Daniel that she could turn any second & then he goes over there hugging her... easily could've got him killed
Cherub Cow
Thu Oct 12 23:58:21
True! There might have been a little too much left unsaid there. They seem to have not needed to say anything because they were in each other's heads, but a quick little, "Hey, she just died like, a minute ago," would have been helpful :D
Cherub Cow
Wed Oct 18 00:20:05
S3E15 – "Things Bad Begun"

[Proctor about Alicia]: "She’s pretty."

Lol.. she wishes anyways. Half of her screen time is her thinking about how pretty she thinks she looks in her scene. Imagine if that mental energy went into acting?

And this whole scenario seems like another Millenial’s ridiculous fantasy of relevance. Like Alicia is just going to be given a chance to be a surgeon’s assistant after splinting someone’s leg? Yeah, okay. And I guess watching Sponge Bob and Harry Potter is going to qualify other Millenials to become astronauts and lawyers — if only someone would notice them and skip them past all the training! "You’re really super qualified. Even more so than all of these people in the room who clearly can do a better job than you, because like.. [yadda yadda yadda, magic finger waving.]" I really get the feeling that children were chosen to field the writer’s table for this show... That and this show's major problem is that they want something to happen every 2 minutes, which means no development.

Troy’s death was kind of boring. They went for a shock moment like has been done in the regular Walking Dead, but it was just bleh. I get the writer's intention with paralleling Troy and Nick (I mean, they outright stated it via Alicia's bad line in S3E12), and so killing Troy was like Nick realizing that he was mortal and could be killed [by his mom if his mom would evaluate him as a person rather than a son], but I can't help but feel that the whole thing was just super lame. Kind of a waste to kill him when he was starting to blossom.

S3E16 — Sleigh Ride

oo, the proctors are like, totes bad guise. Our worst enemy! So much so our worst enemies that we have to just say that they're the worst rather than developing them into that over time. And now the leader can just arrive at the dam and start walking around even though he had spinal surgery earlier that same day? Millenial Alicia must be an incredible surgeon's assistant. Oh no, but it's also because the proctor leader is like an Eastern philosopher and knows the history of civilizations and stuff. He learned lots of cool stuff in-between cooking biker meth, so he can manage his pain really well :|

That ending was fucking awful. The Christmas dinner turned sour metaphor was awful. This show is garbage.
Cherub Cow
Wed Oct 18 00:22:27
lol. I do really enjoy complaining about how bad this show is, though XD
the wanderer
Wed Oct 18 09:12:05
& i enjoy reading :p

i'm still watching even though every time an episode comes along i'm disappointed i have to watch it

i'm hoping Troy is dead as he should've been many times before, not sure though... he was in the room with the C4 yet they decide to show a scene of him lying there intact with water slowing coming in

but at least our protagonists continue to destroy every place they go to
the wanderer
Mon Apr 16 22:54:06
== new season ==

i was guessing Morgan would get to the other show via the mystery trash helicopter, but was wrong...

this reporter lady doesn't seem the type to still be alive... especially given how she invites 2 armed strangers into her van
the wanderer
Thu May 03 17:12:51
last episode: a tragedy has struck... assuming you were able to care about these characters
Cherub Cow
Thu Apr 11 18:09:43
Hulu has FWD season 4, so I don't think I'm giving the show much revenue by watching via them compared to iTunes ;p ... This'll give me something to complain about :D

@S4E1: "What's Your Story?"

As if this show needed more signs of its hackishness, they've just cast Maggie Grace? :| ... the best thing she's done is die in "Lost" — it was a tremendous relief when they removed her from that show, so maybe they've given themselves room for improvement by supplying another character that needs to die.

..a little annoyed that the camera looks like a nice and new camera but seems to shoot in 640x480 resolution. Plus, filming with the sun behind the subject? Are you out of your fucking mind, "journalist"? ;D

And how long has the apocalypse been going on, but they *still* fall for obvious traps like the one at the end? (Alicia crawling on the ground, pretending to be injured.)

@S4E2: "Another Day in the Diamond"

Semi-interesting plot developing with the "Vulture" group. It doesn't speak well to Madison's track record that she thinks that she can make this new place work ;D

@S4E3: "Good Out Here"

..nice little reference with the peanut butter protein bars; Morgan and Michonne had a back-and-forth about those on WD.

..bad writing moment: Morgan drops his stick and just leaves it before running down the hill? That is probably one of the single most annoying writing decisions that persists: people dropping or leaving their weapons for shit reasons.

lol :D
I thought it was going to be Madison that died in this episode, but this was a treat :D .. they didn't do too much with his character towards the end, but this mixes things up since only three original cast peeps remain.
Cherub Cow
Thu Apr 11 21:48:27
@S4E4: "Buried"

Some weird line delivery here in the flashback...
Nick wants to help Charlie (spy girl) by getting her books and building a library in the stadium, but Lucy treats "books" like some kind of sick/immoral method of convincing Charlie of their group's goodness ("Not like *this*! [The horror!]"). Probably she could have toned down that reaction to clarify that it takes more than books to convert someone (So bad work by episode director Magnus Martens and actress Danay Garcia).

lol@"How do you know so much about cars?"
She basically just said that a *particular* car had bad gas mileage but a good gas tank size and that it can run on flat tires. That's it. But Alicia gave a look like, "Wow! A true expert!" lol... I need to keep track of these shit writers :D
This episode was written by Alex Delyle. It looks like shitty FWD episodes are all that she's written (she's behind this season). This show is populated by losers from all directions ;D

lol... Alicia drops her knife while getting on the water slide. Okay, how many times this season will someone drop a weapon, shit writers? XD
Wow... in the very next scene, the new person (Naomi) sets her knife down to make herself comfortable in an unsecured area :|
Surprise! She needed it, and that unsecured area still had walkers in it. Lol...

Ugh.. Maggie Grace's bad acting in her tiny scenes. Fucking stop her, someone. ;D

Naomi is Laura? Laura is Naomi?? Finkle is Einhorn?? Einhorn is Finkle?? D: D:
Cherub Cow
Fri Apr 12 01:03:54
@S4E5: "Laura"

[Opening scene: new guy leaves his gun behind]
It's like it's a point of practice for people to make this bad move over and over again. At least it didn't negatively affect him in this case :p

...aaand the show continues with its weird anti-gun stuff, lol...
[John Dorie]: "[Guns] cause more problems than they solve. Plus, they just attract more of the past, in my experience."

..okay, never mind; it sort of accepts guns at the end when it shows how effective they can be against a bunch of walkers :p

Actually a well-written episode. Ran out of complaints as things progressed. Props to writer Anna Fishko for this one. It also tapped into the plot written for Morgan in S4E1 (that episode by Andrew Chambliss, Scott Gimple, and Ian Goldberg), but that was just for the last couple of lines, so Fishko gets credit here.

[Morgan]: "There ain't no waiting, not in this world. Waiting — that's... that's how you lose people."
Cherub Cow
Sat Apr 13 20:23:44
@S4E6: "Just In Case"

@[6 minutes]...It really is a point of practice: Dorie hands over his guns because he's worried he'll use them in anger. How about instead you realize that you need them and just try to exercise some self control? :|

@[scene where they sleep at a motel]..always impressed when people think it's okay to fall asleep in situations like this without posting a guard..

@[24 minutes].. weird place to decide to have a moment (bunch of walkers a few feet away). I know it was a big loss for her and that she recognizes these people, but again, a little self control... Also weird that only one of those walkers was capable of going through or under the bunk beds in the group's eventual escape scene...

@[ending]..very interesting that they can watch a convoy rolling up on them and not feel the need to seek cover... idiots :|

lulz@ending. I guess Alicia realized that Laura betrayed them (she must be why the stadium fell) but hilarious judgment taking a shot at her like that. "Suicidal imbecile" (APC) comes to mind :D

Richard Naing (writer of "The Autopsy of Jane Doe" — a good concept movie) wrote this episode, and despite the mistakes above, I do at least have to give him credit for the themes of second chances, redemption, and realizing that you may not be the horrible person that you think that you are ;D .. but I don't understand how so many of the show writers can have so little of a clue when it comes to how people would behave in these tense standoffs. Alicia, Strand, and Luciana were just standing out in the open — three shooters — while truckloads of gunmen get out and surround them. How was that a good idea? And when Alicia swings around and fires, no one else shoots? Not a chance. Even if people realized that she missed, they'd be startled into making bad decisions themselves, so Alicia's group would have been riddled with bullets...

Anyways, figures that a decent character would pay for the bad writing. Hopefully it's not his end :/
Cherub Cow
Mon Apr 15 01:25:23
@S4E7: "The Wrong Side of Where You Are Now"

Oh okay, *now* they've taken cover :p ... how they *got* to cover after that brazen move was of course left off screen :|

@[2 minutes] Now this is ridiculous.. Alicia's group have all lined up on one van, yet somehow a larger group isn't out-maneuvering them?

@[3:50] Yes! Execute Charlie!! >:D >:D >:D

@[37 minutes] They just sit there in the car instead of driving away from the dead? :/ ...how did that make sense to anyone?
Cherub Cow
Mon Apr 15 14:18:12
@S4E8: "No One's Gone"

@[6:45 minutes] Noice! They've just clearly shown Alicia's group as villains. This was part of their trajectory on the show (always making bad decisions and hurting people recklessly), but they just showed it from an outsider's perspective with Alicia staring at them with malevolence. So now hopefully Morgan's group kills Alicia's group and it becomes a new show :D

@[16:20] Here we go again. Yes! Execute Charlie!! >:D

Dammit... not villains anymore? :( :(

@[39:00] Madison pulling a Dr. Malcolm.


I suppose the fun thing about no one having favorite characters is that the writers don't really mind cleaning house :D
Cherub Cow
Tue Apr 16 14:10:13
@S4E9: "People Like Us"

[15 minutes] Charlie can't even handle one walker? How did she make it this far?

Super uneventful episode. They just wanted to flash forward a few weeks to get healing out of the way, but they couldn't even get going with the storm plot. The storm start of the episode ended up being a cliffhanger at the end?

@S4E10: "Close Your Eyes"

I thought it was temporary, but adding dirt-looking makeup to the top of Alicia's forehead seems to be standard now. It was removed for an episode and then came back... but in the show world, how would dirt even get there so frequently? Protecting actress
Alycia Carey's vanity?

@[9 minutes] Here we go again. Yes! Execute Charlie!! >:D

@[10:15] Alicia knocked out by.. landing on soft dirt? Makes sense :|

Very cool "kill yourself" speech by Alicia :D

@[17:50] How long have they been at this and Alicia can't even kill four walkers as they come to the house? She just killed that 4-person walker family, so is it selective? :/

@[19:25 minutes] Here we go again. Yes! Execute Charlie!! >:D

@[25 minutes] Having walkers clawing at the windows may be making a good sell for a sort of house ornament for Halloween.. kind of like that SNL sketch of hiring Christmas urchins

Run to the *basement*? What? :/

@[35 minutes] Here we go again. Yes! Execute Charlie!! >:D

@[38] "He saved us." Umm.... no...

@[39] Might want to put that jar in a box..

"[Things'll] only get worse. Though we're not around to see how bad they can get."

That's a nice line. Life is garbage. Like Charlie. ;)
Cherub Cow
Wed Apr 17 03:12:36
@S4E11: "The Code"

[2:20] Lulz... Morgan and his peanut butter protein bars :p

Okay, this is actually pretty cool. This episode showed some of the big wheels of the post-apocalypse. There have only been a few examples on the show of the groups hitting large resource centers — places like the "Terminus" (cannibal) site, that cleaned-out Wolf trap, and that fuel depot. But this is suggesting more about the mega warehouses and shipping facilities that truckers visit. Nice to get new info.

[16:50] Aww.. Poor Morgan.. having one of his weird freak-outs :(

Not a bad episode, actually. Alex Delyle was one of the main writers, but I think that the other writer, Andrew Chambliss, probably has to be given most credit because Delyle is incompetent.

@S4E12: "Weak"

Good writing by Kalinda Vazquez in this episode. Didn't really have any complaints. Maggie Grace even got it together long enough to make a good scene.

I'm liking this weirdo who's stalking the group. Always has to be someone balancing out the equation ;D .. i.e., the truck driver was trying to be helpful, and she's distorting his message into something dangerous. Kind of like the "Terminus" peeps who wanted to help at first but were turned into killers.

Also interesting to see how the show dynamic has changed from the stupid Clark family stuff into a changing cast of surrounding characters. This seems to let the writers experiment with various post-apocalypse stories. Too bad that so many of the writers have been blowing it ;p
Cherub Cow
Wed Apr 17 14:09:20
@S4E13: "Blackjack"

[24 minutes, car tumbling down a hill] lol... Strand is either retarded or an alcoholic whose alcoholism has made him retarded XD

[35] Aww.. Indiana lost his hat :'(
Very strange walker behavior in that scene. They turned around after the car horn stopped? Usually the walkers would just keep going towards the last big thing that they heard...

They're really pushing the beer stuff :D .. I'm guessing that someone in the writer's room is one of those people who's super into breweries.

[38] Aww :'( ... he was the driver :'(
Poor guy.

Stupid sexy cliffhanger.

Another good episode! This one written by Ian Goldberg and Richard Naing, so they get the points ;)

.. Until Morgan spoke to the crazy lady on the radio at the end, it didn't occur to me that she was a parallel to Morgan when Rick found him in his "Clear" palace. That was a nice move.. especially since Morgan was beyond crazy and dangerous at that point.
Cherub Cow
Thu Apr 18 04:01:07
@S4E14: "MM 55"

[8:45] Ah! I knew something like that was coming, but it still startled me :D

[19:20] Oh no.. more bad writing. This time Maggie Grace's character infers that Sarah must be military because she used the word "bogies"... Almost as bad as when Alicia was impressed that June knew two things about a car, but this episode was by Anna Fishko and Shintaro Shimosawa, not Alex Delyle. Fishko did well with S4E5 ("Laura"), so maybe this was a fluke..

[24:20] lol... The recruiter probably *should* laugh at Wendell for thinking that he could enlist from a wheelchair... Is this supposed to paint some kind of injustice in the world? Because it just paints Wendell as an idiot.

[28] "Didn't agree with their Code of Conduct" lol.. okay, these writers are fucking clueless. And she "quit"? Unless she was an officer, that's not a thing. And she would have to be an idiot too to have been in the military and think that it makes any kind of sense for Wendell to be allowed to join.

[31] Very strange (i.e., bad writing) that everyone unanimously agreed to make Morgan the "shot-caller" and not bother to come up with any plans or suggestions of their own...

[37] Aw, poor beer man. It was amazing he made it this far :p

Eh. Small world? ;p

@S4E15: "I Lose People"

[12:00] Ah! They got me again. Startled. Lol

[22] Here's another chain-link fence situation... It seems like a perfect opportunity to do what Rick's group was doing at the prison: make easy kills. They can clear all of these walkers and not have to worry about them.. :/

[25:50] Again, this strange behavior of walkers turning around immediately after a distraction stops...

[28] This pep talk is awful. Kalinda Vazquez messed up this time.

[33:30] Pretty sure that that shot was impossible ;D

[38] "Hold the mic close to your ear"? Didn't they just have a scene showing that pretty much everyone has a transceiver?

Writing was pretty annoying in this episode. Way too much attention called to them declaring Morgan the new show champion. So much that apparently no other characters can think anymore. He's clearly the most capable of them, but no one has any thoughts? :/
Cherub Cow
Thu Apr 18 17:40:27
@S4E16: "...I Lose Myself"

Yay! Finale time. Such an ordeal ;)

[4:30] That was a painfully stupid exchange. It's going to be a rough episode.

[15:30] "Doesn't take a whole day to recognize sunshine"
aww :D

[17] Morgan throws away his stick again. Let's see how well this goes :|
Okay, it didn't work against him, but seriously, people, stop :p

[19] They've really got to stop saying, "Repeat," on the radio.. say, "Say again," or arty is going to drop rounds on the last grid coordinates ;)

[24] Surprising that Strand is sick. It's the water that was poisoned/dirty, but Strand was on an all-liquor diet ;)
..and again with this weird "Morgan, solve all of our problems" stuff. You'd think that the nurse present would best be able to diagnose and treat medical issues, not Morgan.. but she's calling him for help?

Aaaand another stupid exchange. Sticks his entire arm through the security window? Come on, writers... Andrew Chambliss and Ian Goldberg wrote this episode. They were supposed to be the show's more competent writers...

[30] lol... when Sarah mentioned that the coffee was sweet, I was thinking, "Must be the anti-freeze," but I didn't realize that that was what the crazy lady had actually put in the water XD

[39] Lol.. nice "Get down!" line delivery, Maggie Grace ;D

[41] lol... this shit writing.. So they needed ethanol, and it was leaking out of a tanker truck, and instead of collecting the ethanol as it leaks out, they just admit defeat and say, "We lost the ethanol"?? This is awful. If any of these actors have any kind of awareness of this garbage, they should feel really bad sitting here letting this scene fall apart.

Stupid ending. This show is still garbage ;p
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