Utopia Talk / Politics / UK voting age to be lowered to 16

Pillz rank	Sun Jul 20 20:06:26 https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c628ep4j5kno Voting age to be lowered to 16 by next general election Becky Morton Role,Political reporter Author,Adam Smith and Jonelle Awomoyi Role,BBC News 17 July 2025 Sixteen and 17-year-olds would be able to vote at the next general election, under government plans to lower the voting age. The pledge is part of a raft of measures being introduced through a new Elections Bill. Other changes include expanding forms of voter ID to include UK-issued bank cards, moving towards automatic voter registration and tightening rules on political donations to protect against foreign interference. The minimum voting age is already 16 for local council elections in Scotland and Wales, and elections to the Senedd and Scottish Parliament. However for other elections, including to the UK Parliament, local elections in England and all elections in Northern Ireland, it is 18. Lowering the voting age to 16 across the UK would be the biggest change to the electorate since it was reduced from 21 to 18 in 1969. A pledge to lower the voting age to 16 was included in Labour's election manifesto but it did not feature in last summer's King's Speech, which sets out the government's priorities for the months ahead. The government has now confirmed it is planning to introduce the change in time for 16 and 17-year-olds to vote at the next general election, which is due to take place by 2029 but could be called earlier than this. Deputy Prime Minister Angela Rayner told the BBC: "I was a mum at 16, you can go to work, you can pay your taxes and I think that people should have a vote at 16." However, Conservative shadow minister Paul Holmes said the government's position was "hopelessly confused". "Why does this government think a 16-year-old can vote but not be allowed to buy a lottery ticket, an alcoholic drink, marry, or go to war, or even stand in the elections they're voting in?" he asked in the Commons. Critics of the idea argue it could benefit Labour as young people are more likely to vote for left-wing parties. However, polls suggest Labour's youth vote is at risk of being chipped away at – by the Greens, Liberal Democrats and Reform UK. In the UK 16 and 17-year-olds make up only around 3% of the population aged 16 and over so researchers say the impact on overall vote share is likely to be negligible, particularly as turnout tends to be lower for younger age groups. The government has rejected claims it is introducing the change because it will benefit Labour. "This isn't about trying to rig votes for a particular party. This is about democracy and giving young people an opportunity to have a say," Rayner said. More @ link about voter ID and foreign donors
Rugian rank	Sun Jul 20 20:18:17 Lol. Farming dem kids. "This isn't about trying to rig votes for a particular party." It absolutely is. Children who have spent yeats being indoctrinated by the UK's woke education system and havin 0 real world experience are more likely to vote Labour. Duh
Forwyn rank	Sun Jul 20 22:31:34 Compound this with reproductive rates of Brits vs. kebab sellers. Leftwing parties will add millions of votes over the coming decade from hijabi teens who hate the nation they were raised in. Seb will cheer.
Pillz rank	Sun Jul 20 23:57:00 Can't wait until they add a crescent moon to the union jack
Sam Adams rank	Mon Jul 21 05:59:27 England is permanently fucked.
Seb rank	Mon Jul 21 09:10:09 1. I guess nobodies looked at the demographics of the UK to understand why this isn't going to have much of an effect. 2. What do you think all of those people who might now get the vote at 16 would be doing 2 years later if we kept the age at 18? "Leftwing parties will add millions" There are only 2.3m people between the ages of 16 and 18. Youth turnout (18-24) is typically under 50%. About 15% in polls would vote reform or conservative. So even if you class Lib Dems as left wing (incorrect - and what you really mean is you are mad this demographic won't vote for farrage) we are talking under a million votes. And a lot of this is concentrated in areas where Labour already win on FPTP. It's hilarious how triggered American right get. They are so dominated by fear they even project it into foreign countries they don't understand or have the slightest interest in understanding.
Seb rank	Mon Jul 21 09:51:14 The big issue that conservatives should really be thinking about is why they've managed to alienate the youth vote so thoroughly. And the answer is that it's because they are focused entirely on pleasing a voter demographic that's old. Policies that explicitly hurt younger people in order to offer inflation busting pension increases, policies that favour asset owners over those starting a career, predatory rent extracting businesses that prevent younger people actually building up their own assets and culture war nonsense that boils down to policies designed to punish young people for not sharing the social mores of the elderly which they take as degeneracy. Oh no. The young don't want to vote conservatives. It must be the left wing teachers! Oh no, why don't middle class white people have more kids? Maybe we should offer better state funded childcare and crack down in the US VC funds buying up nurseries and whacking the fees up to more than private school rates so that it's actually affordable without dramatic collapse in cost of living? Nah that's socialism!!
Seb rank	Mon Jul 21 09:51:45 The Thatcherite revolution literally eating its children.
Seb rank	Mon Jul 21 09:53:40 Anyway, votes for 16 year olds - largely irrelevant in FPTP and a country ageing like the UK. I'm principle not a bad idea to try and re-anchor politics to looking at trying to make a better future than bring back an entirely imagined past. But fundamentally not going to work as far far too small a demographic, badly distributed.
Seb rank	Mon Jul 21 09:54:55 I wonder if Rugian, Forwyn and Sam know the UK doesn't have birthright citizenship... it sometimes seems they don't when they project American conspiracy theories over here.
Sam Adams rank	Mon Jul 21 12:28:27 "why they've managed to alienate the youth vote so thoroughly." Because youth is retarded with zero life experience. Thats why we seperate them from adults regarding abilities and rights. The very words adult and youth. Very telling that seb admits this group is on his side.
jergul rank	Mon Jul 21 12:40:42 UK conservatives are retarded sammy. Everyone knows this.
Seb rank	Mon Jul 21 15:03:31 Sam: Yes it's super retarded to want to own a home but not be able to get one because fucking planning permission rules let old people block making any new decent houses because it ducks with their view and house price.
Seb rank	Mon Jul 21 15:03:41 What are those young people thinking?
Seb rank	Mon Jul 21 15:06:32 Average age of the conservative party membership was pushing 70 before they stopped reporting stats. The people setting conservative policy aren't just retarded, they are likely in the early stages of senility. That tells you all you need to know about Sam. He wants to be led by folks who are only a few birthdays away from going back into nappies.
jergul rank	Mon Jul 21 15:27:26 I think you are understating that point. Adult diapers are quite commonplace for that demographic. As befits a multibillion dollar industry.
Pillz rank	Mon Jul 21 15:37:54 Seb so mad
Forwyn rank	Mon Jul 21 18:20:31 "Oh no, why don't middle class white people have more kids? Maybe we should offer better state funded childcare" Yes, throw more money at it, so it can have the same results as public schools. "not be able to get one because fucking planning permission rules let old people block making any new decent houses because it ducks with their view and house price." Yes, nanny state-isms is the fault of the crowd that regularly laughs at and mocks your nanny state. Lol.
obaminated rank	Mon Jul 21 23:19:13 Seb, do you honestly think it is a wise decision to give people who have never worked the right to vote?
Seb rank	Mon Jul 21 23:26:56 Obaminated: School leaving age in the UK is 16. Most people do A levels and degrees, but are you arguing that we should delay voting rights to people under 21 (about half of people go to uni)?
Seb rank	Mon Jul 21 23:29:22 Also what exactly is it about working that makes you acquire what we take to be a fundamental right? Would you strip the unemployed or those physically unable to work from having the vote? What is this shit. Voting isn't a privilege you acquire from work, it's about the social contract and consent to be governed.
Seb rank	Tue Jul 22 00:26:46 Forwyn: "nanny state-isms is the fault of the crowd that regularly laughs at and mocks your nanny state. Lol." Just bleating the word "nanny state" over and over again like it's supposed to mean anything is pretty brain-dead. Yes, the NIMBY's are all old conservative voters that hate and fear change. The clue is in the fucking name. Every time the conservative govt tries to do something to loosen planning laws, their own voters and activists force them to back off. The result, sky high house prices and most people under the age of 40 unable to get on the property ladder. If you tiny, addled mind thinks this is "nanny state" well then tough luck: it turns out the UK conservatives (like their American counterparts for that matter) are hypocritical gobshites. The fact you don't vibe this policy as being conservative doesn't, unfortunately for you, mean that objective reality that the conservatives absolutely are the party blocking economic growth and fucking over most people under retirement age isn't an objective reality.
Pillz rank	Tue Jul 22 03:20:38 Do these posts contribure social credit, or are they counted towards your pension package, maybe you bank hours for vacation?
williamthebastard rank	Tue Jul 22 03:42:54 Apart from small trends now and again, conservatism has always been the home of old fuddie-duddies who think young people don't properly appreciate what their elders had to go through and weirdo religious kids who were born and bred to be old geezers, dressed up by their conservative, religious parents in cheap suits and ties from the age of 6. "Why when we were kids, there were a hundred and sixty of us living in a small shoebox in the middle of the road." "You were lucky. We lived for three months in a brown paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six o’clock in the morning, clean the bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down mill for fourteen hours a day week in-week out. When we got home, out Dad would thrash us to sleep with his belt! Made me what I am today! But you try and tell the young people today that… and they won’t believe ya’."
Sam Adams rank	Tue Jul 22 04:37:31 "Yes it's super retarded to want to own a home but not be able to get one because fucking planning permission rules let old people block making any new decent houses because it ducks with their view and house price." Your below replacement level birth rates. Any housing crunch comes precisely from your immigration policies.
obaminated rank	Tue Jul 22 07:47:07 Seb, you failed to answer a simple yes or no question. Instead you posted three rants avoiding the question.
Seb rank	Tue Jul 22 07:58:41 Sorry obaminated your question was so stupid and my response pretty clear. Let me be clearer. 1. Many people do enter the labour market from 16 and that's part of the fucking stated reason for the proposals of you'd bothered to check, so the entire premise of your question is wrong. 2. We already give people the vote irrespective of whether they have worked. Most 18 year olds are also in full time study and at best have summer jobs. 3. We have slats Voting is a fundamental right and has fuck all to do with working. Having got a shitty job working in retail doesn't make you any better placed to vote or more likely to be well informed. I mean look at your, Forwyn and Sam's approach to policy in this thread for gods sake. Totally ill informed, completely illogical... if voting was a privilege we extended on the basis of some level of competency or knowledge, none of you would have it.
Seb rank	Tue Jul 22 08:00:03 Fucking auto correct.
obaminated rank	Tue Jul 22 08:35:00 So on one hand you say 16 year olds can vote. And with the other hand you say 18 year olds have summer jobs at best. So you still avoid answering the question because?
obaminated rank	Tue Jul 22 08:35:28 Opps. You say 16 year old can work*****
obaminated rank	Tue Jul 22 08:38:20 I mean, why wont you just say that you think it is wise to give 16 year olds the right to vote. Zero work experience. Zero life experience. But you believe they should vote and there is zero alterior motivation behind it. Just say that.
jergul rank	Tue Jul 22 12:15:32 Obam, that is a pretty tired argument that has been used the disenfranchise groups before. Voting in democracies does not have a compentency criteria. Young people have been left behind in the West. No doubt about it. One way to sway the dynamics is by expanding that franchise. So, that like politicians are less inclined to leave that group behind. In a normal country, young people will also vote conservative. Its just the UK conservatives that are so completely retarded. The party will have to shift quite a bit to get that vote.
jergul rank	Tue Jul 22 12:17:44 Something to think about in the US too. If you can try people as adults, then they should be allowed to vote as adults. You also train child soldiers as an added argument (that is not a critique. Norway does it too. Induction from a young age is sometimes useful).
obaminated rank	Tue Jul 22 20:04:55 I assume people in Britain can vote at 18. I question the motives of politicians who want to lower that age arbitrarily to 16. And I'd love for seb to explain why he would trust the future of his country to a 16 year old who has zero life experience beyond going to government run school. And to be clear, I do believe there should be tests one needs to pass before being able to vote. A general competency is required for driving a car, why wouldn't there be one for voting?
williamthebastard rank	Tue Jul 22 20:15:38 Its laughable that an 18-y-o has amassed wisdom from living a life that outshines the experiences a 16-y-o has amassed. Thats just a fantasy. There is a small amount of maturity in the biological development, however. But not much. Life experience doesnt start to mean anything until youre probably in your 40s, if thats youre measurement. A far better tool is whether the information you accumulate is an utter MAGA/Qanon fantasy world versus the wholly contradictory information that reflects objective analyses of our reality
obaminated rank	Tue Jul 22 20:36:21 I dont know how to argue against this. Yeah 16 to 18 isn't a big difference. But there is a difference. Why not argue for 14 year olds to vote? Not that big of a difference from 16 to 14. Also notice how I didnt need to mention maga you small minded twerp?
williamthebastard rank	Tue Jul 22 21:08:08 "Also notice how I didnt need to mention maga" You didnt mention what, Einstein? As one of those people, youre oblivious to the fact that you are part of possibly the most harmful and detrimental affliction to contemporary society and civilization. As part of the Maga anti-science and anti-humanism that threatens humanitys future development, you are part of the rejection of objective, scientific knowledge that we need to make informed decisions in democratic elections. Good education for all citizens would have the most dramatic impact on voting patterns and would relegate the Maga fantasy world back to numbers that would make Scientology look good.
williamthebastard rank	Tue Jul 22 21:09:48 * Scientology being a more benign version of Maga and Qanon, which are basically Scientology turned hateful and violent
Sam Adams rank	Tue Jul 22 21:57:41 One should get a number of votes equal to their age.
Seb rank	Tue Jul 22 22:07:51 Obaminated: I don't know why you are finding it so hard to understand. Yes, I think it's perfectly sensible to give 16 year olds the vote; but I think the question of whether by they have experience of work is totally irrelevant for the following reasons: 1. 16 is the age at which compulsory schooling creases in the UK; even if it is common to continue to do A levels. 2. Most 18 year olds will still be at school doing A levels anyway. 3. Over half of 18-21 year olds will still be in full time education at university. So it is anomalous to argue the franchise should be restricted on the basis of a lack of work or life experience. Then there's the issue what the basis for the franchise isn't about whether someone is particularly *good* at making informed decisions, but the issue of a fundamental *right* to determine how society is run. Hence aligning it to 16 where a number of rights kick in (end of compulsory schooling etc.) rather than 18. You see also how you undermine your own argument which is incorrectly premised on the former by demonstrating your own cognitive weakness in understanding that by rejecting the fundamental premise (that work experience is irrelevant) means that I'm not going to answer your question with a simple yes, because the *reason* I think voting at 16 is a perfectly sensible proposition is fundamentally different from the one you imply in the question. If I did subscribe to your idea that the right to vote should be qualified by criteria that ensure that vote is being exercised "properly", obviously that should exclude people such as yourself that can't even reason their way through a simple paragraph of text.
Seb rank	Tue Jul 22 22:11:58 Obaminated: It isn't arbitrary though. You can give consent at 16 in the UK. You can get married at 16 in the UK. You can join the military at 16 in the UK. You can leave school at 16 in the UK. It's in many ways anomalous that voting would be 18. And in terms of habituating people to vote, studies indicate that people as adults are more likely to vote if they start voting younger. The argument is about trying to inculcate civic duty: democracy doesn't work with low turnout. It's an alternative to laws requiring people cast a ballot (Cf. Australia).
Seb rank	Tue Jul 22 22:12:58 Suspicion of motive is one thing, but if you were genuinely suspicious you'd actually inform yourself of basic facts. What you are actually displaying is simple cynicism and reflective culture war type adversarialism.
Forwyn rank	Wed Jul 23 02:39:13 "Just bleating the word "nanny state" over and over again like it's supposed to mean anything is pretty brain-dead." Brain-dead would be pretending that housing prices are exclusively the result of conservative boomers, the only boomers ever to display nimby-isms. Maybe you should import another ten million kebabs. That will lower housing prices. "The people setting conservative policy aren't just retarded, they are likely in the early stages of senility." Correct. Voting rights should also cease at 70, or be tied to cognitive testing. I won't necessarily reach CC-levels of Starship Troopers, i.e. suffrage tied to service, but votes should be restricted to folks with triple-digit IQs, the ability to pass a civics test, and some metric of worldly experience. There is zero reason for an 85IQ jihadi to have the same level of civic weight as a 140IQ chem. engineer, other than yapping about democratic fairness.
jergul rank	Wed Jul 23 05:06:23 "other than yapping about democracy". Fixed that for you forwyn. Democracy is not the only imaginable political system. There are so many ways to not be a democracy.
Forwyn rank	Wed Jul 23 06:26:44 Letting retarded jihadis flood your nation, have ten kids, and all of them voting is a very quick one.
Seb rank	Wed Jul 23 08:57:31 Forwyn: "be pretending that housing prices are exclusively the result of conservative boomers" Go and look at the UK population pyramid. "but votes should be restricted to folks with triple-digit IQs, the ability to pass a civics test, and some metric of worldly experience." That's a terrible idea. What's next, they can't own property? If the right to vote isn't based on the idea of the state obtaining the consent of the governed, then what you have is some form of oligarchy instead and you'll end up with those with political power squewing policy to favour them. Eventually this destabilises the polity of the whole. This is actually what we were just talking about with the boomer generation in the UK.
Seb rank	Wed Jul 23 08:58:49 "Maybe you should import another ten million kebabs. That will lower housing prices." Again, you need to go to check out UK citizenship laws and stop assuming we have birthright citizenship like you do. So fucking stupid to hold strong opinions without checking basic facts.
Seb rank	Wed Jul 23 09:05:03 "There is zero reason for an 85IQ jihadi to have the same level of civic weight as a 140IQ chem. engineer, other than yapping about democratic fairness." On that basis there's no reason for anyone to get the vote. We should just have a closed group of very smart electors who will select who they add to the group of electors. This will work amazingly because smart people are enlightened and won't seek to monopolise power for their own ends; and that will obviously result in the best outcomes for the country (important things like GDP etc, the wellbeing of the people that actually live in aren't relevant).
Forwyn rank	Wed Jul 23 15:35:18 "Go and look at the UK population pyramid." Did all of the left-wing boomers die off? You made something up with zero evidence for it, own up to it. "What's next, they can't own property?" How many double-digit IQ people in the UK own property? If non-inheritance is included, I'm going to wager we could count the number in less time than it takes to read a response. "If the right to vote isn't based on the idea of the state obtaining the consent of the governed, then what you have is some form of oligarchy instead and you'll end up with those with political power squewing policy to favour them. Eventually this destabilises the polity of the whole." If the right to vote is based on the premise of simply being an adult human, then what you have is some form of oligarchy [driven by an unholy union of media blocs, corporate and finance giants, and algorithmic messaging pumped through personal devices] instead and you'll end up with those with political power skewing policy to favor them. Eventually this destabilizes the polity of the whole. "you need to go to check out UK citizenship laws" You need to stop pretending that it's some massive hurdle to obtain citizenship in the UK, instead of a simple clerical matter for kids of anyone who obtains permanent residency. "On that basis there's no reason for anyone to get the vote." You see how someone with a high-IQ lashes out and makes illogical conclusions whenever faced with the slightest ounce of cognitive dissonance? How do you think that fares when it's someone 2-3 SDs below you? People should have some semblance of how the government even functions. What does "consent of the governed" mean to someone who is barely above the definition of functional retardation?
Seb rank	Wed Jul 23 16:49:35 Forwyn: Labour polls 15% in over 65s. Stop just guessing shit. If you really care by to have this discussion, go user google for 30 seconds.
Seb rank	Wed Jul 23 17:01:09 Forwyn: "How many double-digit IQ people in the UK own property?" Oh Jesus. No, I don't mean "own a house", I mean literally "are legally recognised as being able to own stuff". Cf. How anything owned by a woman before the late 19th C technically belonged either to her father or to her husband if she was married. If non-inheritance is included, I'm going to wager we could count the number in less time than it takes to read a response. "If the right to vote is based on the premise of simply being an adult human [national]" Yes, this is what flows from the idea of people being free citizens not subjects. "driven by an unholy union of media blocs, corporate and finance giants, and algorithmic messaging pumped through personal devices" I find it fantastically amazing that rather than the obvious solution of rebuilding media, corporations and tech firms, your idea is to instead formally strip citizens you deem to much at risk of manipulation of their freedoms. "You need to stop pretending that it's some massive hurdle to obtain citizenship in the UK, instead of a simple clerical matter for kids of anyone who obtains permanent residency." As someone who actually has been through this process before they changed the rules, I think you should stop talking shit. "People should have some semblance of how the government even functions." Why stop there? The purpose of the vote is to establish consent. People, fundamentally, are free to think stupid shit and demand it. If you want a technocratic dictatorship, China has a pretty successful constitutional model you can bolt on more human rights protections for non-party members. But it isn't a free country if you start making the franchise dependent on arbitrary threshold rather than a fundamental right; and I don't buy these half measures where we start excluding the franchise only for some people.
Forwyn rank	Wed Jul 23 18:43:45 "Stop just guessing shit." Back at you. National part voter polling is not interchangeable with municipal legislation or code enforcement. "I mean literally "are legally recognised as being able to own stuff"." I mean, yeah, they can own a telly. No one was going to say otherwise. Are they allowed to use it without a loicense? "this is what flows from the idea of people being free citizens not subjects." Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not necessarily the right to vote for someone because you saw them on Tiktok. "rebuilding media, corporations and tech firms" You're right. A totally simple proposition, and ensuring that retards vote is so important that we should reshape the world to ensure that their inability to accurately parse new information. Who will be doing this reshaping? A middle institution, guided by those voted in by retards? Seems a little self-serving lol "As someone who actually has been through this process before they changed the rules" Are you suggesting that the bureaucratic process is more labyrinthine than what the rather simple explicitly listed requirements? I can't believe it! "Why stop there?" Because the purpose is to establish very, very simple bottom thresholds for cognitive activity, not idiotic strawmans that you keep putting forth. "The purpose of the vote is to establish consent" People consent daily, not just every four years in a booth. Granted, ya'll only have three boxes of liberty, not four. "technocratic dictatorship" "free country" "fundamental right" Don't ya'll violently arrest autistic teenagers for comparing butch cops to lesbian nanas? Your hand-wringing over basic freedoms is laughable.
Forwyn rank	Wed Jul 23 18:46:04 -National party* voter -accurately parse new information [doesn't negatively impact society]
Seb rank	Thu Jul 24 11:09:19 Forwyn: "National part voter polling is not interchangeable with municipal legislation or code enforcement." You are doing it again. Just fucking use Google to avoid saying stupid fucking things that make you look stupid and make me need to waste time explaining basic shit. You are importing terminology to describe aspects of the US system to the UK as if the UK and US systems were interchangeable. The planning framework is set by national govt, as do the laws that allow individuals to hold up and object to developments. National level planning reform is needed, but the conservatives repeatedly back away from it because it is unpopular with their bases. "not necessarily the right to vote for someone because you saw them on Tiktok" You don't like tiktok. I don't like Fox News. "Who will be doing this reshaping? A middle institution, guided by those voted in by retards?" And who will be setting the criteria that determine if you get to vote? There are loads of high IQ people who fall into the grip of mad cults and conspiracy theorists and they are far more likely to actually vote than those with serious mental incapacity that render them non-functional. If you are sincere in this, it's those people we need to go after. Anyone that ever voted Reform or Brexit is a good start, a very clear test of failure to analyse what they were voting for in a responsible fashion and clear demonstration that they voted reflexively based on social media. "People consent daily, not just every four years in a booth. Granted, ya'll only have three boxes of liberty, not four." Tacit consent still needs the regular ballot box. If you are literally removing people's right to choose, then the other aspects of tacit consent don't work. "Don't ya'll violently arrest autistic teenagers for comparing butch cops to lesbian nanas?" You know the IOPC (we don't have fascistic concept of police immunity) investigated this and the force was required to issue an apology. Actual accountability, the thing you want to limit.
obaminated rank	Thu Jul 24 13:46:07 @ seb, I take back my arguments. I wrongly assumed the legal adult age in the UK was 18 like in the states. The political left here has propositioned lowering the voting age from 18 to 16 in the past and it was clearly an attempt to influence and benefit in elections.
Seb rank	Thu Jul 24 19:48:07 Obaminated: It's split between 16 and 18 for various things. There are perfectly legitimate arguments for either. In practice I'm in favour of trying to push the transition into adulthood earlier. Having everything kick in at 18 means you end up with lots of people acquiring the responsibilities of adulthood overnight and failing to live up to them. That then starts to drive an extended adolescence (especially as more and more go to university and it becomes a tertiary stage of full time education). Voting I think is a good one for moving earlier. 16 year olds are not particularly less likely to engage any worse than 18 year olds and if you can legally get someone pregnant at 16 legally then that seems to have at least as much impact as a vote. And in terms of votes I suspect even in the US the idea of it changing outcomes is overblown. The demographic in that two year period is tiny in the developed world. Redistricting is far more important and effective way to determine vote outcomes.
jergul rank	Thu Jul 24 19:55:39 Or perhaps abandoning first past the post for a more representative system? If we wanted to look at things that are more important and effective in determining vote outcomes.
Seb rank	Thu Jul 24 22:35:08 Jergul: Think you are rather missing the point.
jergul rank	Thu Jul 24 23:59:11 There are many points. Bashing Obam is one of the lesser points.
Seb rank	Fri Jul 25 00:27:52 I didn't mean that either. It's not a policy intended to shift the balance of parliament at all.
jergul rank	Fri Jul 25 01:10:06 It meant to entrench the current balance of parliament. It might potentially rejuvinate the conservative party. The silver lining so to speak. Earlier adulthood? A living entry level wage and affordable housing. Otherwise, people are trapped into parental dependency unless they opt for the state to take the parental role. Casting a ballot if you like for half a cycle has zero impact.
jergul rank	Fri Jul 25 01:10:36 livable*
jergul rank	Fri Jul 25 01:14:29 I am speaking as one who would have cut off his right arm to move away at 15. Sadly, I had to endure until 16. It has nothing to do with maturity. That is forced onto you once you can realistically manage for yourself. But it is Peter Pan forever if you have to call your parents twice a month to make ends meet. Very simple this.
Seb rank	Fri Jul 25 09:20:15 Jergul: *Sigh*.
jergul rank	Fri Jul 25 13:41:56 Your justification seems adhoc. We do know you support a 3rd party. Why the reluctance to supporting reform and introducing proportional representation? There are numerous models for that and most have safeguards against tiny party chaos. 16 year olds do matter. It gives conservative party voices an argument to realign party priorities. It is the right thing to do also. Younger demographics have been marginalized by way of many mechanisms and trends. They need a boost and politics need a restart to give new generations a fighting chance. But of course the Liberal party is doing this to solidify the current composition of parliament after the conservatives were eradicated last election. The Tories tend to bounce back, best to lay down stumbling blocks. It is what it is.
jergul rank	Fri Jul 25 14:02:47 Ah, I see. No, you need a theshold, leveling seats and a modified Webster method (also called something French). Look to Norway to see how representation should be done. http://en....ified_Sainte-Lagu%C3%AB_method http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leveling_seat
jergul rank	Fri Jul 25 14:03:14 Ohhh, look. Two links are clickable! :)
murder rank	Sat Jul 26 00:11:06 "Voting age to be lowered to 16 by next general election" If you're old enough to get fucked by Prince Andrew, you're old enough to vote. -
murder rank	Sat Jul 26 00:13:09 </ thread>
Seb rank	Sat Jul 26 14:48:11 Jergul: I do support proportional representation. But that is not the point.
Seb rank	Sat Jul 26 14:53:01 It may be hard to believe, but the push for voting for 16 yos isn't about partisan advantage. It's genuinely about driving civic engagement. And while the points you raise about electoral reform and living wages are interesting that's peripheral; and I don't have the energy for a round of Jergulian dialogue of the "if you believe X you must support my policy Y". 26-18 as a
Seb rank	Sat Jul 26 14:54:24 16 to 18 as a transition to adulthood where you acquire in stages the full freedoms, responsibilities and accountabilities of adulthood rather than a cliff edge.
jergul rank	Sat Jul 26 14:56:22 I don't think you can handwave away the fact that 16 voting helps entrench the current parliamentary composition and that this is an important reason for why the liberals will use their majority to make the change. Something can have many reasons for doing it.
jergul rank	Sat Jul 26 15:00:23 Well, that argument could be reversed. Since independence is generally impossible until a person is in her 30s, perhaps the voting age should reflect that and be increased to 28. It is easily imaginable that a young person beholded to their parents for economic support is subject to considerable coercion when voting.
Seb rank	Sat Jul 26 15:11:10 Jergul: I don't need to hand wave it away. Theres been tonnes of analysis and the segment is too small and to inefficiently distributed to change composition or entrench it. Plus, while the assumption they vote left wing is plausible; this is largely because the young tend to be more radical; so you could very well see the opposite to what you believe will happen: voting at 16 might in the longer term create a pipeline for habituating people to vote for Reform and Corbyn's new left wing party and retain those votes as the voters age; accelerate the erosion of the current parties dominance in the long term.
Seb rank	Sat Jul 26 15:12:03 Many things are imaginable.
Seb rank	Sat Jul 26 15:12:30 (cf. Also the young supporters of AfD)
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