Utopia Talk / Politics / battle of iran?

Sam Adams Member	Fri Apr 12 22:40:16 Seems like the US and Israel are goading iran. All this release of "iran is about to attack" in the news. They will look like giant pussies if they dont. Maybe thats the point. Then we can hit irans nuke plants without looking like the agressor? 2 more US aegis ships moving in. Might be about to see the biggest single missile battle yet fought. Should be an interesting case.
Hrothgar Member	Fri Apr 12 23:34:27 WW 3 brewing more than at any time since WW 2. The question if it starts is if major nuclear powers will just fight in other nations, or really go after each other's homeland. Humanity would be fine long term with small nuclear states using nukes when one starts losing (Israel vs Iran, India vs Pakistan type situation). But if the big boys pull the triggers, extinction level event.
jergul large member	Sat Apr 13 04:25:37 Seems to me the US is responding to something Iran has already done. An assymetrical response from Iran is simply to send more and bigger missiles to its proxies. Russia would be more than happy to proxy using Iranian missiles on a very specific US ally. But yah, Iran definitely will be getting nukes one way or another. Russia was happy to lend nukes to Belarus. No particular reason it cannot lend nukes to Iran too.
jergul large member	Sat Apr 13 04:29:15 It may not happen here, but that is ultimately how the US security system will unravel. Israel does something. Iran just thinks of Israel as a US proxy, then invests heavily in taking down Ukraine, another US proxy. A bit silly not to think of both as just extentions of US influence. Unruly extentions, sure, but Iran knows all about unruly proxies.
Allahuakbar Member	Sat Apr 13 08:50:28 US Navy ships would be swarmed with drones, you couldn't defeat them all, things have changed and you know it!! BTW our revenge already started: http://www...iner-ship-in-Strait-of-Hormuz- IRGC seizes Israel-linked container ship in Strait of Hormuz Saturday, 13 April 2024 The special naval forces of the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) have seized Israel-linked MSC Aries container ship near the Strait of Hormuz, official news agency IRNA reports. The ship was impounded by the Sepah Navy Special Force (SNSF) in a heliborne operation and rappelling of forces on the ship's deck, the agency said Saturday. "The ship has now been directed towards the territorial waters of our country," IRNA said. The Portuguese-flagged ship, operated by Zodiac Maritime, is owned by Israeli real estate, energy, technology and shipping magnate Eyal Ofer, it added. Zodiac Maritime is part of the Israeli billionaire's Zodiac Group. A video released by IRGC shows SNSF commandos rappelling down onto a stack of containers sitting on the deck of the vessel. A crew member on the ship could be heard saying: “Don't come out." He then tells his colleagues to go to the ship's bridge as more commandos come down on the deck. Reports said the MSC Aries had been last located off Dubai heading toward the Strait of Hormuz on Friday. The ship had reportedly turned off its tracking data, which has been common for Israeli-affiliated ships moving through the region. The incident comes amid Israel bracing for Iranian retaliation after the regime's April 1 strike on a building in the Iranian embassy compound in the Syrian capital of Damascus, which killed seven IRGC military advisors, including two generals.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Apr 13 09:43:04 Thats it? Pussies.
obaminated Member	Sat Apr 13 09:52:30 So the best Iran can come up with his to take over a container ship owned by an Israeli billionaire. Okay. I guess Israel can afford that. They'll bomb a few Iranian generals at the cost of a container ship owned by one of their citizens.
jergul large member	Sat Apr 13 10:06:52 The US recently transferred siezed weapons from Iranian vessels to Ukraine. I would say that was the tat for this tit. But well, 144k tons built in 2020 aint nothing. It weighs in at 150% the tonnage of a US carrier. Ukraine will ultimately pay the cost for Israeli actions. At least in the short and medium term. At least until Iran gets a nuclear arsenal and has the top cover to be more proactive.
jergul large member	Sat Apr 13 10:10:00 Or for thing obam cares about. Actions like these are paid for by you at the pump and by fred rates kept up by underlying inflation. Perception of risk increases oil prices and shipping transport costs of all goods in general. Insurers dont care about vessels siezed per se. The cost is always passed on...eventually to consumers.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Apr 13 11:09:36 "weighs in at 150% the tonnage of a US carrier." Oh no jergul did you just make the amateur mistake of confusing a cargo ships carrying capacity with a warships displacement? You should know better! The freighter probably displaces 60k or so tons empty.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Apr 13 15:06:05 Iran launchee drone wave. Israel has only 9 hours warning.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Apr 13 15:16:13 We cant see the fighters but tons of us+uk tankers are visible on flightradar
jergul large member	Sat Apr 13 15:23:48 Max displacement with carrying capacity? Sure, I made that mistake. Stick to planes moron. I know ships.
jergul large member	Sat Apr 13 15:24:56 Wow, did you really do the displacement mistake? Weight of vessel with load = displacement. Wow. Nubb.
obaminated Member	Sat Apr 13 16:07:35 This can only mean war.
obaminated Member	Sat Apr 13 16:15:05 Wonder how many drones are in each wave Iran has sent. Wonder how effective their attack will be. Iran needs to hit some military targets, having their drones shot down before they can do any harm would be beyond humiliating.
LazyCommunist Member	Sat Apr 13 16:20:36 Wow wait, Iran must not start a full war with Israel, they must sell us more drones and not use them all themselves.
obaminated Member	Sat Apr 13 16:48:33 Iran also launched cruise missiles as well. Guess they wanted to give Israel and the US a justification for destroying their nuclear facilities.
Rugian Member	Sat Apr 13 17:52:20 NUKE IRAN
Sam Adams Member	Sat Apr 13 18:28:39 Lol poor jergul. Her carrying capacity was 150% of a carrier. Full load displacement 220% of carrier. Empty 70%. You quoted the only non-displacement figure. Pwnt. Anyway this great air battle of robots appears to be US UK israel france jordan verse iran syria lebanon yemen. Minimal damage so far.
Forwyn Member	Sat Apr 13 18:54:53 Goofy fucks thought the Turkish swarms do something against first-world militaries
murder Member	Sat Apr 13 19:43:09 "NUKE IRAN" yes
obaminated Member	Sat Apr 13 21:28:56 Israel is def gonna take out Iran's nuke facilities, the Supreme leader just gave them total justification.
obaminated Member	Sat Apr 13 21:29:58 Honestly what a dumb time to attack Israel. The international community was turning on them, even biden. Now everyone who matters is back in Israel's corner. Haha even Jordan is shooting down drones.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Apr 13 21:57:28 Ive seen so far that a single Israeli is wounded. Lol jergul.
jergul large member	Sat Apr 13 22:54:14 Sammy What was that about displacement, weather gerl? It is the only meaningful metric my dear lass. How is electricity going in Ukraine as that country runs out of the capacity to trade patriot missiles for geran drones? Its like you do not understand assymetry at all.
jergul large member	Sat Apr 13 23:00:33 And now that I reviewed headlines. Extrapolate for Israel. Do you seriously think there are enough air defence missiles to keep on blocking those kind of attacks? I know the IDF and the US military know there are not.
jergul large member	Sat Apr 13 23:07:09 Obam Are you willing to bet money Putin lacks the balls to lend Iran nukes the same way the US lends nukes to multiple countries? Its like you dont get that correctly defying Russia on Ukraine will have significant and enduring consequences? Its a new cold war baby. Adapt and adjust.
jergul large member	Sat Apr 13 23:21:30 Anyway, it seems I am correct. The ship is in retaliation for US confiscations, the signaled attack a response to the assassinations at an Iranian embassy (as in the planned killing of named individuals). I seriously doubt there will be any significant escalation from the Israeli side. Israel knows it is all fun and games until it gets punched in the face. There are simply not enough air defence assets to deal with a prolonged Iranian campaign. The only one that will be paying the price here is Ukraine. As for nuclear top cover. Yah, Israel knows Russia will provide that to Iran if needed. Divide and conquer is only elegant if the opposition lets you divide and conquer.
Habebe Member	Sun Apr 14 01:36:44 Im no fan of Iran, but something smells fishy in the state of Denmark. It definitely looks like we are the aggressors here. Not sure how I feel about that. Om the one hand, fuck the ayatollah. But also another forever war, yay (sarcasm) I miss the Hussein family Think Im gonna become a billionaire and buy a small island from the Phillipines.
Allahuakbar Member	Sun Apr 14 04:11:32 A stronger reaction IS possible, beware! http://www...eri-retaliatory-strikes-Israel The chief of staff of the Iranian Armed Forces, Major General Mohammad Baqeri, says Iran has concluded its retaliatory strikes on the occupied territories, warning of a “stronger” reaction if the Israeli regime responds. "The operation is over from our point of view, but the armed forces are ready and we will act if necessary,” Baqeri said Sunday morning. His remarks came hours after the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC) launched extensive missile and drone strikes against the occupied territories in response to Israel’s deadly attack on the Iranian diplomatic premises in Syria early this month. Baqeri downplayed the extent of the operation compared to what Iran is capable of, saying that it was merely a punishment and the country’s response to any further military action by the Israeli regime “will be much greater.” “The reason for this operation was the crossing of [Iran’s] red line by the Zionist regime, which cannot be tolerated in any way for us,” he asserted.
Rugian Member	Sun Apr 14 08:27:47 Well at least Biden is siding with a longtime ally against a major regional threat and longtime enem-... hahahahahahahaha of course he isn't. "Biden tells Netanyahu US will not engage in counteroffensive against Iran, calls Saturday a win for Israel: report" http://nyp...urday-a-win-for-israel-report/ We are sleepwalking our way towards a nuclear Iran, because none of our leaders can make the hard but necessary choice to glass that fucking shithole already.
Sam Adams Member	Sun Apr 14 08:42:53 Lol rough day for jergul. Another success of western air defenses, plus the amateur mistake on boats.
jergul large member	Sun Apr 14 08:54:49 lol sammy. So wrong. What do you estimate it will cost to replace the more than 600 missiles used? That is the problem with Western military everything. It does not scale very well.
Average Ameriacn Member	Sun Apr 14 09:22:14 Planes attacked the incoming drones, cannon rounds are not that expensive.
obaminated Member	Sun Apr 14 11:53:30 Um yeah. Look at jerguls posts. He is having a rough day.
jergul large member	Sun Apr 14 12:02:17 What is with the american psyche that insists on declaring victories where none exist. http://edi...rones-analysis-intl/index.html It seems pretty clear Iran tailored the attack to drain air defence missiles. A tactic to aid Russia in Ukraine, but also to avoid escalation. Ukrainian pilots have died trying to shoot down drones with cannon fire. The targets explode you see. We will get to know the numbers eventually for the US too. The total replacement cost in the 2-3 billion dollar range is my wager. For yes, Patriots carried the brunt as missiles and drones flew near their positions. Not because the missiles and drones had to fly near. But because Iran wanted them to.
Sam Adams Member	Sun Apr 14 14:56:02 "We were utterly defeated because we wanted to be" Lol jergul.
obaminated Member	Sun Apr 14 15:31:40 "Tis but a flesh wound" - jergul Israel is now saying Iran's attack is a declaration of war. Lol. Sorry jergul, your allies are about to get curb stomped.
Paramount Member	Sun Apr 14 15:54:21 ” Another success of western air defenses” 6 million jews died in Iran’s retaliation. You call that a success?
Cherub Cow Member	Sun Apr 14 17:06:17 Oh wow. Some of us were pointing out that Israel had staged the October.... I want to say... 16th? .. attacks because they wanted to 9/11 themselves as pretext to commit the West to attack Iran and Lebanon (among others listed by Wesley Clark back in 2003), and what do you know? Here we go with Israel wagging the dog. It's probably just a coincidence that these target nations are in the New Khazaria region.
jergul large member	Sun Apr 14 18:49:49 Sammy You might have a point if lasers were used instead of 2x multi million dollar missiles per target. Iran is down 80 million give or take (or a small fraction of MSC Aries value). The US and Israel are down a couple billion. But, more importantly, each US missile fired is one that will have to be replaced instead of supplying it to Ukraine once the congressional deadlock ends. Iran is helping Russia win in Ukraine. That is the real revenge for US proxy actions. Obam You are being gamed. It really is as simple as so.
jergul large member	Sun Apr 14 20:10:43 And if Israel goes for a major escalation, then all that is happening then is you are being gamed by Netanyahu too. His deeply unpopular government having made the calculation that a long distance war with Iran is a way of remaining in power.
obaminated Member	Sun Apr 14 20:28:28 Lol, jerguls broken reaction is "it was a failed attack but it cost less for Iran than it cost Israel and its allies." Niggah Don't you realize how deep the shit Iran is in now? Israel has declared war. Iran ain't dealing with some street corner boys like isis. Iran is dealing with 1st world powers now preparing to shut that niggah up permanently. Shit we been waiting to do since that green revolution shit Obama sat on while women get killed for not covering up. But hey. Thats your side. Keeping women down. Good luck.
jergul large member	Sun Apr 14 20:33:47 Obam Israel used between 20 and 30% of its stockpiled missiles defeating the attack (the total cost of all its air defence systems is 10 billion. Including development, manufacture, systems and missiles. We know this because the US has paid for most of it, so the numbers are available). A country with a population of what? 11 million is not a first world power. What exactly is Israel supposed to do in your mind?
jergul large member	Sun Apr 14 20:41:54 Here is your declaration of war: "The hours-long Israeli war cabinet meeting ended Sunday night without a decision on how Israel will respond to Iran’s missile and drone attack, an Israeli official said. The cabinet is determined to respond — but has yet to decide on the timing and scope and the official said the military has been tasked with coming up with additional options for a response. Separately, a senior Biden administration official told reporters that an Israeli official told the United States that it's not looking to significantly escalate the showdown with Iran. CNN analyst Barak Ravid said Israeli ministers Benny Gantz and Gadi Eisenkot advocated for swift action, but US President Joe Biden's phone call with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu led to a decision to delay the response until the next day." CNN
obaminated Member	Sun Apr 14 21:01:48 Lol jergul. I hate to break it to ya. But. You are on the wrong side of history and its gonna show in the coming weeks. Pray no one checks your internet history because you'll be dragged out as a useful idiot. Sorry.
Average Ameriacn Member	Sun Apr 14 23:08:56 In addition to the cannons the planes also used a few Sidewinders. These don't cost billions.
Average Ameriacn Member	Sun Apr 14 23:32:27 Foreigner jergul is out of touch with reality. This is how the NATO fights against low tech muslim drones: https´://www.reuters.com/world/french-helicopter-destroys-houthi-drone-2024-03-20/ ATHENS, March 20 (Reuters) - A French Navy helicopter destroyed a Houthi combat drone in the southern Red Sea to protect merchant ships, the EU's mission in the Red Sea, known as Aspides, said on Wednesday. A French destroyer warship detected an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) of the Iran-aligned Houthis flying near commercial vessels, according to a statement from Aspides' headquarters in the Greek town of Larisa. The French warship's helicopter, "patrolling in the area, was guided by the destroyer to engage and destroy the drone with its machine gun," it said.
jergul large member	Mon Apr 15 03:39:28 Obam I am on the correct side of history. As is every Norwegian. Its a very gilted age over here. Useful idiot how? What imaginable impact do I have exchanging counterpoints with posters like you in this tiny outpost on the internet? Israel does have the genocide option with its nuclear arsenal. But I thought nukes are unusable. That point has been made so many times with your shiny predictions of Ukrainian victories over Russia. Otherwise. What is Israel supposed to do? A small, shitty country (as per what Israelis say themselves) with a capitol 2000 km from Teheran. What kind of force projection does it have in your vivid imagination? Have you forgotten Ukraine. Impactful explosive exchanges are measured in the millions of metric tons tnt equivalents. And there is the small fact that the attack a few days ago seriously drained Israeli and US stockpiles of missiles and did not drain Iranian stockpiles of drones and missiles significantly. In the case of Israeli, some 20-30% of missiles used (1 billion of 10 billion total invested in development, training manufacture, missile systems, and missiles themselves. We know this because the US paid for most of it). You are being played by both Iran and the current, very unpopular, Israeli government.
jergul large member	Mon Apr 15 03:44:23 AA Israel said it cost more than a billion. I provided a link. And I am sure a French heli managed to shoot down a houthi observation drone. Not that keeping a destroyer active in a warzone is cheap either (indicative cost is abour 150 thousand a day excluding munition use).
jergul large member	Mon Apr 15 03:46:10 gilded*
Paramount Member	Mon Apr 15 09:53:22 ” Hagari: '99% of Iranian aerial threats were shot down'” http://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-796882 If true, that’s pretty bad. Ukraine manage to shoot down 140% or more of all Russian missiles and drones.
Rugian Member	Mon Apr 15 09:58:46 "I am on the side of Putin, ayatollahs, and communists, and yet in all my years on this planet I still haven't figured out that I might be the bad guy here" -Paramount
Paramount Member	Mon Apr 15 10:30:38 Israel is the super villian. The USA stopped being the good guy some time after the WW2.
Cherub Cow Member	Mon Apr 15 10:45:14 [Paramount]: "The USA stopped being the good guy some time after the WW2." That's about the time that Israel started mass-infiltrating U.S. governance and media, so that fits.
murder Member	Mon Apr 15 12:20:48 Israel needs to hit back hard. They need to take out Iran's weapons manufacturing and storage facilities. They should also take out Assad just eliminate the main Iranian ally in the area and make it more difficult for them and their proxies to operate.
murder Member	Mon Apr 15 12:21:56 "That's about the time that Israel started mass-infiltrating U.S. governance and media, so that fits." Jews will not replace us!
Paramount Member	Mon Apr 15 12:24:52 They have already done. You are irrelevant and you know it.
jergul large member	Mon Apr 15 12:26:20 Murder Assad's brother and himself married sunni women and have a shitload of sons. Lateral change (his brother is an active army general) or generation change will only solidify the dynasty. Assad himself is just a UK educated eye-doctor originally. Not really the best choice for a wartime leader. Better than a comedian. That has to be said. Israel hit back hard with what over 1000 miles? How would you measure that hit back compared to Russian operations in Ukraine? 0,01%, 0,1% of the firepower? Something in those orders of magnitude. Israel should pretend to hit back hard. But not do anything really. That is the best option. It will probably opt to mire itself in Lebanon.
murder Member	Mon Apr 15 12:26:45 The only thing I know is that if I get up to fast I get a little lightheaded. :oP
murder Member	Mon Apr 15 12:27:08 ^ @ Paramount
murder Member	Mon Apr 15 12:30:27 "Assad's brother and himself married sunni women and have a shitload of sons. Lateral change (his brother is an active army general) or generation change will only solidify the dynasty. Assad himself is just a UK educated eye-doctor originally. Not really the best choice for a wartime leader. Better than a comedian. That has to be said." Yeah ... I don't mean knock him off but leave the government in place. I mean they all go. "Israel hit back hard with what over 1000 miles? How would you measure that hit back compared to Russian operations in Ukraine? 0,01%, 0,1% of the firepower? Something in those orders of magnitude." I literally have no idea what you're talking about.
jergul large member	Mon Apr 15 12:35:58 Murder Israel has shitty conventional force projection capability. Maybe the Swiss can help out against Iran with the Swiss navy since we are talking about futile gestures with no content. "They all go"? Wow ok. Maybe Russia should make all the government of Ukraine go. Since that is so easy that even Israel can do it in Syria. Sweet summer child. You must be very frustrate over how no one is doing the impossible things you think are easy.
jergul large member	Mon Apr 15 12:38:30 Now that I think about it. Did not Israel have a plan of making all of Hamas go? How is that working out?
Rugian Member	Mon Apr 15 13:01:27 "Did not Israel have a plan of making all of Hamas go? How is that working out?" Our shitbag commander in chief started getting heckled by some pro-Hamas protestors and someone told him that they could potentially cost him the State of Michigan in this year's election, so he decided to sell Israel down the river and openly side with terrorist murderers instead. You're probably right in that he'll do the same thing with Iran as well. We now have American Muslims literally chanting "Marg bar America, marg bar Israel," but MI has 15 electoral votes so...long live the Islamic Republic.
Cherub Cow Member	Mon Apr 15 13:02:14 [murder (left-wing dogma bot)]: "Jews will not replace us!" Surprise, surprise. Murder being a retard again. "That's not happening, and it's good that it is!"
jergul large member	Mon Apr 15 13:06:41 Ruggy Michigan also has about the same population as Israel. Since we are speaking of piss-ant, small things.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Apr 15 13:19:58 "but MI has 15 electoral votes so...long live the Islamic Republic." Sad but true.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Apr 15 13:25:21 All the retired jews in florida are going to end bidens chances in that state however.
murder Member	Mon Apr 15 17:05:57 ""They all go"? Wow ok. Maybe Russia should make all the government of Ukraine go. Since that is so easy that even Israel can do it in Syria." Russia is incompetent so everyone is obviously incompetent. "Now that I think about it. Did not Israel have a plan of making all of Hamas go? How is that working out?" It was going fine until Bebe lost his nerve. Literally the only thing stopping Israel is a shit ton of whining and crying from the peanut gallery. "
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Apr 18 21:23:50 supposedly an explosion in Iran... if Israel is stupidly retaliating against a retaliation that failed baldly then fuck em, cut em loose... what possible gain comes from this
Sam Adams Member	Thu Apr 18 21:50:32 "I got shot in my bulletproof vest, which stopped this one, so i'm not shooting back." Loldumb. So ya israel is hitting inside iran. Iranians cancelling all civil flights... they learned since last time. Lol@seb remember how you were utterly convinced for days that iran didnt shoot down their own plane and that an engine had magically exploded the entire plane?
Sam Adams Member	Thu Apr 18 22:59:02 Pretty small strike it seems.
Paramount Member	Fri Apr 19 01:37:22 We can see that de-escalation is in progress. Iran's immediate response was to throw a rock across the border into Israel. If the de-escalation progress continues, then a jew will likely retaliate by spitting into Lebanon. Hezbollah may then give Israel the finger in response. Israel will then call them anti-semites, which no one will care about.
Paramount Member	Fri Apr 19 01:44:29 … and then the immediate danger of a greater conflict will have been defused.
murder Member	Fri Apr 19 05:23:59 "supposedly an explosion in Iran... if Israel is stupidly retaliating against a retaliation that failed baldly then fuck em, cut em loose... what possible gain comes from this" Is that what that was? I was under the impression that the Israeli strike on the IRGC General was a response for the thousands of attacks that Iran has conducted on Israel through proxies ... including the mass murder of it's citizens. Maybe I just imagined all that.
murder Member	Fri Apr 19 05:32:11 As far as I can't tell this was small performative nonsense. Biden has Netanyahu's balls in a jar.
Paramount Member	Fri Apr 19 07:09:02 I doubt Biden even knows what is going on.
Seb Member	Fri Apr 19 08:18:52 Murder: There's no real evidence that Iran was behind the 7 October attacks, and if funding and supporting Hamas merits execution of govt officials responsible for the policy, Israel can start with their own PM and cabinet.
obaminated Member	Fri Apr 19 10:01:05 Lol. It's hilarious how the left is now treating a massive slaughter/kidnapping. Seb now says Iran had no involvement in the attack. Seb. Fuck. You. You'll deal with proper judgement when you look at those pearly gates. Until then, everytime you look in the mirror you'll see a man without honor or integrity. Enjoy.
Seb Member	Fri Apr 19 10:25:48 Obaminated: Iran pretty much said "fuck you" to Hamas straight after the attack when it was asking for support. It's pretty clear that kicking off a fight with Israel is the last thing Iran's regime wanted. What's your evidence that Iran orchestrated the attack, other than "Iran are evil Muslims, hamas are evil Muslims, they must be a monolithic block".
Seb Member	Fri Apr 19 10:28:13 You can call this leftist propaganda if you like, but you forget I've been more far more hawkish on intervention against middle Eastern regimes with appalling human rights records than you Putin supporting surrender monkeys for decades.
Seb Member	Fri Apr 19 10:29:33 Hamas perpetrated the attacks. Not Hezbollah, not Iran, and if you want claim they planned and orchestrated it, you need evidence to that effect beyond "but look, they are all brown!"
murder Member	Fri Apr 19 10:33:34 "There's no real evidence that Iran was behind the 7 October attacks ..." There was no real evidence that al-Qaeda was behind the 9/11 attacks. There is no evidence that Russia was behind the little green men that invaded Ukraine. In fact there's no evidence that Russia is behind the ongoing invasion. There was no evidence that it was the Japanese that bombed Pearl Harbor. While some or all of that may not be true, the important point is that we don't have to play stupid just because the enemy wants us to.
murder Member	Fri Apr 19 10:37:52 "Iran pretty much said "fuck you" to Hamas straight after the attack when it was asking for support." Clearly ... that's why (the totally not affiliated with Iran) Hezbollah and Houthis have been attacking Israel in support of Hamas. "It's pretty clear that kicking off a fight with Israel is the last thing Iran's regime wanted." Of course Iran doesn't want to get into a shooting war with Israel, Seb. Why would they want to get into a war where the enemy actually fires back, when they can continue the 40 year long proxy war where Iran attacks Israel and Israel kills some non-Iranians in response? Did you hit your head?
Paramount Member	Fri Apr 19 12:11:19 There is evidence that Israel participated in the October 7 attacks. Israeli apache helicopters killed a whole lot of people on the rave party and their helicopters destroyed all the cars there. Israeli tanks shot at the kibbutzes and killed the jews that was inside.
Seb Member	Fri Apr 19 12:23:49 Murder: Er, yeah there was. There was loads. There was even intelligence reports from *before* 9/11 from the French shared with the US that these al-quaeda affiliated guys that were watching because they were, you know, al-quaeda affiliated, were planning some kind of attack on the US. The hijackers were quickly identified and they were all previously linked to al-quaeda, plus intercepts obtained shortly after the attacks from before where bin laden discusses with another member of his group attacks planned in America timed for that date. And of course Bin Laden later claiming responsibility. There's loads of evidence Russia was behind the little green men, not least people who have specifically identified the individuals officers, and of course Putin's own admission of it later. "There was no evidence that it was the Japanese that bombed Pearl Harbor." Have you had a stroke? "While some or all of that may not be true, the important point is that we don't have to play stupid just because the enemy wants us to." I e. None of it. I'm not being stupid, I'm being deadly serious. It's certainly true Iran has funded, armed and trained Hamas. It's also true that Israel has provided funds to Hamas by intermediaries and specifically allowed arms to flow to them through their bloccade. It's not even a secret, Bibi used to boast about his genius 11D chess move to divide the Palestinians. Saying that Iran orchestrated and is directly responsible for 9/11 is something else. It's like saying the govt of Saudi, which used to fund and arm Al-quaeda when they thought it was a useful proxy against Shias and others, had a direct involvement in planning and carrying out 9/11 and the embassy bombings in Africa. *That* is a heck of a reach and if you are going to say that, you ought to be able to point to the kind of evidence I've outlined in your stupid examples above. So ... where is it? "Clearly ... that's why (the totally not affiliated with Iran) Hezbollah and Houthis have been attacking Israel in support of Hamas." Firstly, Israel started their attacks on Hezbollah pretty much immediately, and their broader attacks on Iranian proxy groups other than Hamas. Secondly, Iranian proxies have their own agenda and agency. You know how Biden keeps trying to get Ukraine to not bomb Russian oil infrastructure because of the effect on oil prices and how Zelensky keeps nodding and smiling and then completely ignoring him? You think Hezbollah is going to sit on its hands when Israel blows up cars full of grannies? You think various Arab and Islamic groups are content to just sit by while Israel kills tens of thousands of civilians? Did we in Kosovo, shrug and say "whelp, the KLA prodded the Serbians"? Honestly you sound like one of those demented Trots that keep insisting every conflict in the world is being planned from the offices of Haliburton. The USA isn't that powerful, and oil companies aren't *that* influential. Netenyahu wants to escalate this to an all out war with Iran and its proxies. He's wanted a grand confrontation with Iran for ages, it's no secret, he's said this many times in public, and he wants America to fight this war for him. Iran right now absolutely does not want a fight. It's economy is on the ropes, it's facing massive internal unrest. "Why would they want to get into a war where the enemy actually fires back" You are kinda missing the point. Iran's "axis of resistance" isn't about Israel, it's about the Arab states and particularly Saudi Arabia. They don't want their proxy groups as means to attack Israel, they posture against Israel in other to build a relationship with their proxy groups and keep the Arab world divided and not under Saudi sway. But as we agree that wouldn't want to get into a shooting war, why on earth would that want an attack of the magnitude of October 7th trusts guaranteed to trigger a shooting war which at best will result in their proxy groups being destroyed, undermining their influence in Arab countries, and also ruins the risk of dragging them into a direct conflict with Israel?
Seb Member	Fri Apr 19 12:26:45 Time for a new screen protector.
Paramount Member	Fri Apr 19 12:35:45 ”Of course Iran doesn't want to get into a shooting war with Israel” So why did Iran attack Israel with 300 missiles, rockets and drones? Clearly, Iran is aware of that Israel can fire back. On the other hand, Israel didn’t seem to believe that Iran would fire back as the Israeli terrorist thugs attacked the Iranian embassy building. Israel believed that they will always be able to murder people and that no one will ever be able to fight back. Now they know. Iran will fire back. Perhaps Israel will stop targetting and killing Iranians on Iranian soil now, and instead focus on killing unarmed children and women in Gaza who can’t fight back. ” 40 year long proxy war where Iran attacks Israel and Israel kills some non-Iranians in response?” You mean that it is Hezbollah/Lebanese (non-iranians) who are attacking Israeli occupation forces. I think Iran only supplies them with weapons but does not take part in the actual fighting.
Rugian Member	Fri Apr 19 12:43:37 "Firstly, Israel started their attacks on Hezbollah pretty much immediately," Well this is a complete re-write of history. Hezbollah fired on Sheeba Farms on 10/8, prompting Israel to respond. "You think various Arab and Islamic groups are content to just sit by while Israel kills tens of thousands of civilians?" Yeah, not buying that Islamic solidarity argument. Just look at the collective shrug the Muslim world has given to Communist China turning Xinjiang into one giant outsize concentration camp. Also, Hamas is the one killing those civilians by deliberately hiding behind them. I'm sure Israel wouldn't need to be bombing urban targets if Hamas agreed to fight fair on open terrain...but alas, they are cowardly, morally bankrupt scum. "Netenyahu wants to escalate this to an all out war with Iran and its proxies." Maybe. The question is why do you consider this to be a bad thing? Absent significant Western intervention, Iran is slated to get nuclear weapons one day (that was true under the JCPOA and it's still true today). Their government shows no signs of collapsing or reforming. Their shadow empire now extends all the way from the Mediterranean to Yemen. I get that this would be a painful and unpopular war, but it's one that probably does need to happen, and sooner rather than later. Certainly the prospect of a nuclear Iran poses a much greater threat to global security than, say, Russia lopping off a couple of cities from Ukraine.
Paramount Member	Fri Apr 19 13:18:50 ” Hezbollah fired on Sheeba Farms on 10/8, prompting Israel to respond.” Sheeba Farms is Lebanese. The Lebanese has the right to fire rockets and missiles onto their own land as they please, and especially at the zionazi terrorist thugs who are there. Israel has no right to be there.
Rugian Member	Fri Apr 19 13:26:49 Paramount The Farms were annexed by Israel 43 years ago. Stop living in the mid-20th century bro.
Seb Member	Fri Apr 19 17:07:28 Paramount: Israel bombed an Iranian consulate, a direct attack by Israel on Iran. Iran knows Israel's capabilities, the expectation was that it would be fairly ineffective. The point was to be seen to be responding. 170 subsonic drones and low end ballistic missiles isn't a serious attack Rugian: Hezbollah claims the attacks on Sheena farm (an Israeli military position) were a response to Israeli attacks on Hezbollah positions in response to a palestinans group. Of the cross border attacks between Lebanon and Israel, about 4000 or so, since 7th October, 85% have been Israeli on Hezbollah, including several attacks by Israel on clearly marked journalists etc. "Yeah, not buying that Islamic solidarity argument" "Just look at the collective shrug the Muslim world has given to Communist China turning Xinjiang into one giant outsize concentration camp." Yeah not buying the American solidarity with Israel, or with Ukrainians. Look at the collective shrug America has given up communist China turning Xinjiang info one giant concentration camp. "Hamas is the one killing those civilians by deliberately hiding behind them" No. Israel is the one killing them by dropping bombs onto areas they have told civilians to flee too. The cabinet have repeatedly talked about depopulating Gaza, and it is very clear that's their aim. They even recently had to sack a bunch of commanders for attacking Western aid distributors, those same commanders having discussed the idea of deterring aid so as to drive Palestinian civilians out by starvation. It's very clear what is going on, and you have to be quite stupid not to see that. ". The question is why do you consider this to be a bad thing?" Because Israel had occupied the palestinans for 70 years with a complete refusal to consider peace on equitable terms. They created their country in an act of ethnic cleansing, murdered a Swedish diplomat to try and cover up a UN investigation into it, then elected the leaders of the groups that committed the worst acts as their leaders. They've refused to consider anything approaching an equitable settlement as too inconvenient to their interests, while pursuing blatant acts of annexation and flouted the treaty commitments under the Oslo accords for two decades, commitments they have made to Europe and the US as guarantors. They elect leaders who have openly gloated about how they deliberately set out to wreck the peace process, and lauded Israel funding and support of Hamas to justify their wrecking of the peace process, and now that Hamas has got out of control, they use that as an excuse to commit war crimes that the west has intervened against other countries to prevent. I for one am fed up with the foreign policy and military cost of supporting Israel pursue a policy they can't pursue on their own and trying to get Western countries to pursue a fundamentally warmongering and costly foreign policy. In my view it's time to cut Israel loose. If they think they can survive in that region with a policy of making war on every country, ethnically cleansing their neighbours, and pursuing apartheid internally - lets see if they can do it on their own. My concern right now is with Russia and the threat Russia and China poses. Israel is a distraction that has spent decades creating an intractable problem of its own, against the advice of the US and Europe. It's quite clear today it will continue with it's failed policies despite advice from the allies it has repeated betrayed the trust of. So, in my view, the time has come to treat it like any other third country. "that was true under the JCPOA and it's still true today)." Incorrect. It was the assessment of every Western intelligence agency that the JCPOA had made it pretty much impossible for Iran to pursue ours nuclear program without measures and steps that would have been very obvious to us. Even post the US's perfidious breach of a treaty and betrayal of European signatories, the IAEA inspection regime that European countries persuaded Iran to maintain again shows little progress. But again, frankly, I'm increasingly unconvinced that it is any longer in European interests to expend effort on containing Iran's nuclear ambition. America's untrustworthiness (and from a European perspective, fundamentally unreliability and lack of credibility) and a persistent trend in successive Israeli govts intent to fight a decisive war against iran make an Iranian incentive for a nuclear weapon (whether under the ayatollahs or simply a nationalist regime) overwhelming. Our (Europe's) efforts need to be focused on Russia and China, with the expectation that it's about as likely the US would side with Russia against European interests as vice versa but unlikely to be involved militarily. Our interests do not extend to the middle East beyond securing trade through Suez. So Egypt and Saudi are important, Israel and Iran are irrelevant. They idea that Iran with a few bombs and missiles that we've just shot down is more threatening than Russia with thousands of nuclear weapons and delivery systems we can't touch, at war in Europe with the exolicit aim of "rewriting" Europes archery architecture, indicating an intent to atack the Baltic's, engaged for over a decade in covert military operations in Europe and engaged in political interference against Europe is just insane. The fact that the US right has essentially adopted this naievity and perhaps even sympathy towards Putin's Russia as a culture war only emphasises how the US can no longer be relied upon as an ally. Finally, we have also seen how the Advent of north Korean nuclear weapons has been something that's been pretty easy to live with. The same would likely be true of Iran. I'd rather they didn't get nukes, but the US and Israel seem determined to make it their only route to security, and being involved in another middle Eastern war off the back of American strategic incompetence isn't in Europes interest.
murder Member	Sat Apr 20 06:14:01 "It's very clear what is going on, and you have to be quite stupid not to see that." I must be very stupid, because I can think of quite a few ways Israel could have depopulated Gaza far quicker, far more efficiently, and without the TV news clips of Israeli bombs wrecking building and tearing up bodies. Maybe we're not stupid. Maybe you just believe what you want to believe.
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