Utopia Talk / Politics / Germany is an illiberal democracy

Rugian Member	Sat Oct 01 15:55:06 Report: Germany has charged or punished over 1,000 people for “online speech-related crimes” since 2018 Dedicated units are seizing citizens' devices and scouring social media for "insults." An in-depth report from The New York Times has revealed the scale of Germany’s prosecution of “online speech-related crimes” and provided a behind-the-scenes look at the units who are tasked with surveilling social media to build cases against German citizens for what they post online. The Times said that after reviewing German state records, it found that there were more than 8,500 cases related to alleged online speech-related crimes and more than 1,000 people have been charged or punished since 2018. However, no national figures exist on the total number of people charged with online speech-related crimes, and experts that spoke with The New York Times said the true figure is probably much higher. The Times’ report also provides details on the copious amounts of social media surveillance that are being conducted by a task force in the German city, Göttingen. This task force was created in 2020 and reportedly has hallways, bookshelves, and desks filled with red evidence files. These files contain printouts of German citizens’ Facebook comments, tweets, and Telegram posts. Investigators that work on the task force search through social media feeds, public records, and government data to gather evidence of purported online speech-related crimes. This task force is in charge of cases across Lower Saxony, a state in northern Germany. Authorities in Lower Saxony reportedly raid homes multiple times per month and in some cases, a local television crew records and broadcasts the raids. Citizens who are raided but refuse to give up their phones have them seized and sent to a lab. This lab uses software made by the digital intelligence company Cellebrite to unlock the seized phones. This task force alone investigated 566 “internet speech-related crimes” last year and expects to investigate double that number in 2022. The unit also fines or punishes around 28% of those who are investigated. Not only are the German authorities setting up task forces that comb through their citizens’ social media posts but they’re also deploying “internet hate speech” investigators, according to The New Times. One of these investigators, Swen Weiland, reportedly works to unmask people who operate anonymous social media accounts by attempting to find out where they work, where they live, and who their friends and family are. “I try to find out what they do in their normal life,” Weiland told the Times. “If I find where they live or their relatives then I can get the real person. The internet does not forget.” According to The New York Times, Weiland once used an online registry of licensed architects to unmask an “unknown Twitter user” who compared Covid restrictions to the Holocaust. In addition to detailing how German task forces and investigators scour the internet for purported online speech-related crimes, the Times also provided multiple examples of German citizens having their homes raided and their devices seized after they posted “insults” or “hate speech” to social media platforms. One man was raided after he shared an image on Facebook with “an inflammatory statement about immigration falsely attributed to a German politician.” Police searched his home and seized multiple devices. The New York Times said this raid was one of around 100 similar raids that played out across Germany at the time. The head of Germany’s Federal Criminal Police Office, Holger Münch, said: “We are making it clear that anyone who posts hate messages must expect the police to be at the front door afterward.” Other prosecutors said that even if the man didn’t know the comments had been falsely attributed to the German politician, he should still face punishment. “The accused bears the risk of spreading a false quote without checking it,” the prosecutors said. Another Twitter user had their home raided by six German police officers after they tweeted “Du bist so 1 Pimmel” (“You are such a penis”) at a city senator who had broken the local social distancing rules that he was responsible for enforcing. And an activist who responded to a German politician’s Facebook message by posting a link to a picture of a mural containing this phrase had his home raided and several devices seized by four German police officers. “They were not here because I’m suspected of murdering someone,” the activist told the Times. “I was just suspected of insulting someone online.” Raids aren’t the only tactic detailed in The New York Times report. It also describes multiple incidents where German citizens have been hit with four or five-figure fines for violating the country’s strict online speech laws. One anonymous Twitter user, who had called a journalist “stupid” and “mentally ill,” was fined €1,000 ($967) after the journalist unmasked them and sent their details to the local district attorney. “I’m happy they did something about it and this person got a signal that there are some limits on free speech,” the journalist said. Another individual was reportedly fined the equivalent of around $10,000 after “sharing insults about Turkish immigrants.” These incidents all occurred after Germany introduced one of the world’s strictest “hate speech” laws in 2018. The law requires social networks to remove hate speech from their platforms within 24 hours. In 2021, Germany attempted to make the law even stricter but a court ruled against these stricter provisions earlier this year. Despite the country already having some of the strictest speech regulations in the world, the Times report claims that many German lawmakers believe this online hate speech law doesn’t go far enough because it targets companies instead of individuals. Daniel Holznagel, a former Justice Ministry official who helped draft Germany’s hate speech laws, suggested that prosecuting citizens for their online speech is similar to prosecuting those who illegally download music and movies from the internet. “You can’t prosecute everyone, but it will have a big effect if you show that prosecution is possible,” Holznagel said. This inside look at the German citizens who are being raided, fined, and investigated because of what they post online is just one of the many examples of the growing online speech restrictions in Germany. Pressure groups are urging German citizens to report so-called hate speech via an app and German authorities are pressuring the messaging app Telegram to censor content. Outside of the speech crackdown, the German government and its police forces are using Covid surveillance tech to track citizens for purposes unrelated to Covid and impose restrictions on citizens who aren’t up to date with their vaccinations. And while citizens that post insults or “hate speech” run the risk of being raided, fined, or investigated, German authorities are creating hundreds of fake “right-wing extremist” social media accounts that incite hatred. The German authorities have justified creation of these fake accounts by claiming that they’re necessary for information gathering. http://rec...hed-1000-online-speech-crimes/
Rugian Member	Sat Oct 01 15:56:15 The balls on Germany to criticize other European countries for being illiberal lol. This shit is far worse than anything that the right has done in Italy, Sweden, Poland, or Hungary.
Habebe Member	Sat Oct 01 16:09:52 Norway has a case where a woman is facing *up to* 3 years in jail for misgendering a tranny online. But yeah, Germany is basically a nation of queer Nazis minus the camps/killing.
murder Member	Sat Oct 01 17:13:11 "But yeah, Germany is basically a nation of queer Nazis minus the camps/killing." Camps/killing is kind of the whole Nazi thing. That and being snappy dressers.
Habebe Member	Sat Oct 01 17:15:57 The old school Nazis were bettwr dressers. They did evil in style. But the camps were not the only thing scary about it, the strict rules, harsh treatment of dissenters etc. Was oretty bad too. Just not as bad as the whole holocaust thing.
Rugian Member	Sat Oct 01 17:17:57 "Camps/killing is kind of the whole Nazi thing." I'll remember this for the next time you insist that anyone who is anti-open borders is a far-right fascist. Thanks for finally seeing the side of reason murder. If you don't advocate for the mass genocide of minority groups, you're not a Nazi.
Habebe Member	Sat Oct 01 17:17:59 Actually, I wouldn't be surprised at queer old school Nazis, the fashion sense and all. Ever see that video of Hitler tweaking out on meth at the Olympics? He was rocking back and forth rubbing a cane on his dick like Merkel.
murder Member	Sat Oct 01 17:22:12 "I'll remember this for the next time you insist that anyone who is anti-open borders is a far-right fascist. Thanks for finally seeing the side of reason murder. If you don't advocate for the mass genocide of minority groups, you're not a Nazi." Fascist and Nazi are not the same thing. And I've never called anyone a fascist or a nazi for not favoring "open borders". I'd call those people racists.
Rugian Member	Sat Oct 01 17:25:35 You JUST called the new PM of Italy that for being anti-immigrant.
murder Member	Sat Oct 01 20:24:02 Link or it didn't happen. :o)
Forwyn Member	Sun Oct 02 12:19:04 “I’m happy they did something about it and this person got a signal that there are some limits on free speech,” the journalist said. I will be happy to read a new report that this faggot was shot in the head and left in a ditch. Hopefully all of the cops perusing social media for insults, too.
murder Member	Sun Oct 02 12:41:45 "I will be happy to read a new report that this faggot was shot in the head and left in a ditch." *Hello ... German police?* :o)
Habebe Member	Sun Oct 02 13:23:54 Murder, Pretty sure that's actually standard MO of German police.
Forwyn Member	Sun Oct 02 19:44:45 "*Hello ... German police?* :o)" Thankfully my great-Grandpappy fled the shithole in the 1890s
earthpig GTFO HOer	Mon Oct 03 14:30:06 Germany's scale and scope for what constitutes "speech that the state should take action against" is going to be a bit off for generations to come. And everyone knows why. It's bad faith commentary to generalize from that. The UK doesn't have a similar excuse, so you may proceed unmolested with talking shit to/about Seb.
Rugian Member	Mon Oct 03 15:04:44 "Germany's scale and scope for what constitutes "speech that the state should take action against" is going to be a bit off for generations to come. And everyone knows why." I *don't* know why, actually. If anything, the takeaway from fascist regimes should be that *more* dissident speech should be tolerated in a free society, not less.
Rugian Member	Mon Oct 03 15:05:42 *fascist and communist regimes, actually (totally forgot about East Germany)
Habebe Member	Mon Oct 03 15:35:54 "Germany's scale and scope for what constitutes "speech that the state should take action against" is going to be a bit off for generations to come. And everyone knows why." Once a Nazi, always a Nazi...or atleast for several generations.
Forwyn Member	Mon Oct 03 16:17:12 "Another Twitter user had their home raided by six German police officers after they tweeted “Du bist so 1 Pimmel” (“You are such a penis”) at a city senator who had broken the local social distancing rules that he was responsible for enforcing." If their goal is to be less like Nazis, they're not succeeding.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Mon Oct 03 18:10:27 That's fine if that's your conclusion Rugian and Habebe, but you are not German, and did not experience what they did, from about 1943 to 1950. I do not support the German policies on free expression. But I understand why they exist. Poles, etc, got to look around after WW2 and blame outsiders. Germans did not. The "tree of liberty" was not merely "watered by the blood of patriots and tyrants," presumed to be a fairly small number of voluntarily involved persons, it was watered by all, somewhat reminiscent of those areas of Africa run by Leopold II, except again there was no outside bad guy that the Germans got to look to when they said "Never Again." Just a mirror. http://i.p...1d12debfdd40f189d738e015db.jpg Acting like it's simply the case of Germans failing to read Ayn Rand, or whatever, is not acting in good faith.
Habebe Member	Mon Oct 03 18:29:40 No, I blame it on far left wing authoritarian policies, similar to those that have helped lead to the current Ukrainian fiasco.
Rugian Member	Mon Oct 03 19:03:15 earthpig GTFO HOer Mon Oct 03 18:10:27 "That's fine if that's your conclusion Rugian and Habebe, but you are not German, and did not experience what they did, from about 1943 to 1950." This mentality of "you're an outsider, so you wouldn't understand and can't judge" is infuriating. It's the same rationale that's used time and time again to justify the atrocities of the Chinese government, and it's equally bullshit in both cases. No, I'm not a German, but I'm well read in both history and politics. I'm qualified to have an opinion on this matter, just as you're qualified to have an opinion on the great orange man that much of the Midwest and South look up to (the fact that your opinion is wrong notwithstanding). Also, you know who else "did not experience what they did?" The vast majority of Germans alive today, including most everyone in the German government and press. So yes, I'm going to judge the Germans here for shitting on the freedom of speech of its citizens, just as I judge Chairman Xi every time he shits all over the human rights of a billion people.
Habebe Member	Mon Oct 03 19:41:34 "No, I'm not a German, but I'm well read in both history and politics." My family legit fled 1936 from Germany. My surname family AFAIK didn't make it out, my grandfather was raised by his mother's parents.
Forwyn Member	Mon Oct 03 19:46:48 C'mon, guys. Being stationed at Rhein-Main for two years gives you special knowledge of German cuckery.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Mon Oct 03 20:19:03 Was only there for work for 4 days, and did not cite that as relevant because it's not. Anyways, like I said. I understand why. I don't support it. Japan is building aircraft carriers again. But still giving itself implausible deniability. So I'd say Germany's "never again" overreach is 2 generations from fading.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Mon Oct 03 20:19:07 Was only there for work for 4 days, and did not cite that as relevant because it's not. Anyways, like I said. I understand why. I don't support it. Japan is building aircraft carriers again. But still giving itself implausible deniability. So I'd say Germany's "never again" overreach is 2 generations from fading.
Habebe Member	Tue Oct 04 16:04:17 Ttt
Seb Member	Tue Oct 04 16:50:50 EArthpig: "The UK doesn't have a similar excuse, so you may proceed unmolested with talking shit to/about Seb." Maybe find an Indian or Pakistani fellow and explain how the Brits don't need to worry about criminalising racism because they never really did it that much, not like the Germans. I bet they will agree and have a good long laugh with you and you will be best buddies.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 04 16:53:20 If you are lucky, they might not ask you if you think that because the Jews are considered white by most civilised westerners, making the German crimes more abhorrent. Trust me, there are good societal reasons for the way UK approaches hate crimes, particularly racism - which ought to be easy to understand contextually.
Forwyn Member	Wed Oct 05 12:51:13 Seb probably creamed his panties when Count Dankula caught a fine for a joke video about a Nazi pug
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Oct 05 13:14:42 Rugian "This mentality of "you're an outsider, so you wouldn't understand and can't judge" is infuriating." In all fairness, he didn't say you can't judge them, just that you look foolish. You clearly do not appreciate or understand the power of collective trauma. This black and white, lines in the sand stuff, is tiresome. "I'm qualified to have an opinion on this matter" Like the 40 year old virgin was qualified in having an opinion about how tits feel, because he read a wiki article and watched a porno, that is the salient point here that you are missing. I only understood the difference after having kids. I used to tell my parents, I know, I know. And I did, I had read stuff, but now that I have kids of my own, now I understand.
Habebe Member	Wed Oct 05 20:58:30 http://youtube.com/shorts/C_HEfVZwgV4?feature=share I hope this is true. Trump claiming he sent her a white flag for her to wave when Russia gets aggressive.
Habebe Member	Wed Oct 12 10:30:57 Ttt
Daemon Member	Tue Oct 25 10:39:55 Hahahaha (automatic translation) http://www...1d-2728-4f0d-a067-57469177e42e Driving with the Z symbol on the rear window - fine for 62-year-old man The Z is used by supporters of the Russian war of aggression. In Hamburg, a man has now been sentenced for presenting the symbol in his car. He did not deny this - but a political message. 25.10.2022, 3.03 pm The Hamburg District Court has sentenced a 62-year-old man to a fine of 80 daily fines of 50 euros each for displaying the Z symbol on the rear window of his car. The court found the motorist guilty of approving criminal offences, a court spokesperson announced. The accused had not denied having attached a white DIN A4 sheet with a blue Z to his car. "In the opinion of the court, this goes beyond solidarity with Russia and is an endorsement of the war in Ukraine, which is a war of aggression in the sense of the International Criminal Code," the spokesperson explained. The Z represents the symbol of Russian warfare. The letter stands for the slogan "Za Pobedu" (To Victory). This had been omnipresent to the general public due to the wide media coverage immediately before the time of the crime. The message on the car window could not be understood in any other way than that the accused was morally behind the commanders and thus behind the perpetrators of the war of aggression. In the view of the district court, this constituted a public endorsement of criminal acts that was capable of disturbing the public peace. According to the prosecution, the accused had driven along Hamburg's Grindelallee on 29 March 2022 with the sign on his car. The man from Schenefeld (Pinneberg district) had received a penalty order for 60 daily fines of 30 euros each for this, against which he had appealed. In court, the 62-year-old argued that the Z was just the last letter of the Latin alphabet. It was "a very, very steep thesis" to connect this letter with the war in Ukraine. There were other possible connections, such as the French-Algerian feature film "Z" (Costa Gavras) or a former pub in Hamburg with the same name, said the man, who was born in Mecklenburg, according to the court spokesman. His defence lawyer also referred to press reports on "Generation Z". The verdict is not yet legally binding. Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Daemon Member	Tue Oct 25 10:44:43 "The old school Nazis were bettwr dressers. They did evil in style." http://twitter.com/mbk_center/status/1584561819787878401
murder Member	Tue Oct 25 11:00:11 The 62 year old man should get his ass shipped to Russia.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 25 12:41:40 Edgelord vs court. I've very little time for obviously disingenuous arguments of the "No this swastika is a symbol of good luck - it just happens to be on a white roundel on the hood of my red car oh my gosh yes now you mention it it does look like a NAZI sign but really I'm just super into hindu symbols no I can't show any other examples, just my car" type
Habebe Member	Tue Oct 25 13:52:28 The point is who cares if if was even an ACTUAL Nazi symbol, you know like the ones worn by actual Ukrainian soldiers that we armed. Again, you can argue good reasons why they are a liberal society. We can come up with good reasons why Saudi Arabia is an even less illiberal society. It is what it is.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 25 17:22:54 Whaaaaaatabout Azov???!! Again the issue isn't simply the Z, it is that the intent was obviously to give support to a war. In the same way the issue with flying the ISIS flag or burning a cross on public property in front of a church (or indeed burning an American flag) isn't the act itself of flying a bit of cloth, or burning it - it's the intent to threaten, intimidate and harass. Things that all liberal democracies have criminalised.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 25 17:24:01 Freedom of speech doesn't mean that you can commit fraud, harassment etc. and the fact you commit these crimes through speech doesn't mean the consequences and outcomes are protected from criminal sanction. Especially if they are intended.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 25 17:26:22 Holding a rally to support al-quaeda in the US would be considered supporting terrorism. Playing edgelord and saying that maybe you didn't know this flag was al-quaedas. And you just happened to parading in front of the local mosque in a walk. And yes you called for jihad against Jews, Jihad can mean an internal struggle. Sure. Sure. But a jury is not going to come to the a conclusion that there's reasonable doubt on intent.
Habebe Member	Tue Oct 25 18:26:51 "Whaaaaaatabout Azov???!!" Yes, it should matter that in a country where you can't even have a Z symbol because it might look close to a Nazi symbol, where you can't legally show support for a war but they have an entire battalion of actual Nazis which you can support.More than that it seems to be popular amongst alot of ukrainians in that area. So fucking A right WhAt AbOuT AzOv! It shows they don't really care about Nazism. It's legal to fly ISIS flags in the US and burn the flag. Fraud and expressing your opinions are different, even repulsive opinions. "Holding a rally to support al-quaeda in the US would be considered supporting terrorism." Obama held frequent rallies and he founded ISIS. Im sure you can find some local areas that cops will harrass people, in some places the cops have been known to harrass ppl for flying US flags. But it's legal to do so.US cops can be assholes.
Habebe Member	Tue Oct 25 18:28:51 http://www...ook-laholm-a7363211.html%3famp Even Sweden lets you fly the ISIS flag.
Seb Member	Wed Oct 26 03:18:42 Habebe: "Yes, it should matter that in a country where you can't even have a Z symbol because it might look close to a Nazi symbol" Hold on, no, that is not what happened here. He's being prosecuted for protesting in favour of a war of aggression - the Z symbol is *evidence* of his intent, not the offence itself. "but they have an entire battalion of actual Nazis which you can support" I'm not going to go over this again, yes Azov was founded by a neo-nazi (you know, as was the Scout Movement) - arguing it is a battalion of Nazi's is over-reach. "More than that it seems to be popular amongst alot of ukrainians in that area." Gosh, I wonder why? Perhaps because they are effective fighters against your buddy Putin that's been invading their country since 2014. "It shows they don't really care about Nazism." I don't really see how. Germany hasn't provided aid to Azov. You seem to be arguing that because Germany prosecutes individual NAZIs in Germany, they should allow a European country to be invaded by a Fascist regime because within that European country, there are NAZIs. I don't think that stacks up at all. I think in fact you are bending over really far backwards to try and de-legitimise support for Ukraine citing Russian propaganda talking points. "It's legal to fly ISIS flags in the US and burn the flag." It's legal to use the letter Z in Germany. It's not legal to protest in favour of a war of aggression. It's probably legal to fly an ISIS flag in the US, but advocating support for ISIS is covered under US anti-terror laws - and flying an ISIS flag would be taken as evidence that you were doing that. It is legal to burn a wooden cross. Burning it in a way that is obviously intended to harass an African American church isn't. And gathering outside said church and burning a giant wooden cross would be taken as evidence that your intent was to harass. Do you not see the distinction? I thought some states had introduced a flag desecration law (which really is a much worse impingement of freedom of speech)? Either way it doesn't matter - I think I've made the point. "Obama held frequent rallies and he founded ISIS." Yes, but the rallies were not about ISIS which he clearly founded (oh yes, I know because the fairies told me).
Habebe Member	Wed Oct 26 11:50:08 "Hold on, no, that is not what happened here. He's being prosecuted for protesting in favour of a war of aggression - the Z symbol is *evidence* of his intent, not the offence itself." Banning protest in support of Russia. Who Germany isnt even at war with. Thats inherently authoritarian. Germany also locks up reporters for reporting they deem as "pro Russia" for reference she reported that people in the Donbas region favored Russia. "I'm not going to go over this again, yes Azov was founded by a neo-nazi (you know, as was the Scout Movement) - arguing it is a battalion of Nazi's is over-reach." They literally pose with Nazi flags.regularly.We have documented evidence time and time again. You like to overlook that you support actual Nazis because of the cognitive dissonance involved. "Gosh, I wonder why? Perhaps because they are effective fighters against your buddy Putin that's been invading their country since 2014." Ah yes, because I don't support your support to endlessly drain the US for some random country that means NOTHING to me. Again, Id rather see this support something useful like the US border and internal infrastructure in Mexico via a loan. " I don't really see how. Germany hasn't provided aid to Azov. You seem to be arguing that because Germany prosecutes individual NAZIs in Germany, they should allow a European country to be invaded by a Fascist regime because within that European country, there are NAZIs." Im arguing that they are literally prosecuting their own citizens if they dissent on war policy but literally aid actual Nazis. Now, personally, I get the idea of realpolitik, I even support it, I have no qualms dealing with Saudi Arabia which is FAR more oppressive than Germany. But I also support fundamental rights to allow people to openly express opinions and discuss government policy etc. I don't support one sided wat propaganda. " It's legal to use the letter Z in Germany. It's not legal to protest in favour of a war of aggression." So it's illegal to dissent, he isn't materially supporting them, he is expressing his opinion.Thats fucked and clearly authoritarian in nature there is no way around that, you happen to support a greater deal of authoritarianism than I do,that's fine, Injust disagree. " It's legal to use the letter Z in Germany. It's not legal to protest in favour of a war of aggression." This protest was a threat of violence? Because burning a cross in the manner your suggesting sounds to me like a threat of violence. I was joking about Obama...
Habebe Member	Wed Oct 26 11:52:44 "I thought some states had introduced a flag desecration law (which really is a much worse impingement of freedom of speech)?" To be honest, I'm sure some states have legislated that, some local boroughs as well. And we agree that's anti free speech and authoritarian and its wrong. I would hope the Scotus would strike such BS down. I know my man Gorsuch would, hands down the best justice on the bench.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 27 02:05:39 "Banning protest in support of Russia" Banning protest in support of specifically a war of aggression and annexation. It's like banning a protest specifically in favour of the twin tower attacks. "Thats inherently authoritarian" No it's not. The war invasion itself is inherently authoritarian, as is supporting it. You literally have a dictator invading a free country in Germanies neighborhood.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 27 02:08:29 You are properly bonkers Habebe. As fascists invade and annex a European country, torturing and shelling civilians; your concern is that the true authoritarianism in your scenario is to supporters of this war harassing refugee victims and attempting to get Germany to stop supporting the defenders.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 27 02:58:53 Habebe: "Im arguing that they are literally prosecuting their own citizens if they dissent on war policy but literally aid actual Nazis." Not if they dissent on war policy Habebe. You can dissent about war policy absolutely fine. It's specifically support for the Russian invadion, occupation and annexation of Ukraine. You've been corrected on this point a few times and I know you think it's cute, but it's like saying he was prosecuted for driving a car. I.e. a barefaced lie. Germany has provided aid to the Ukrainian govt. Are you saying the Ukrainian govt, incidentally led by a Jew, is a Nazi? Or do you have any evidence that there's been financial or military aid to Azov either after it was absorbed into the reserve guard and it's Nazi founders left? And Azov had subsequently been destroyed anyway. The problem here is your think you have a cogent point but it's all predicated implicitly on things that were false, and that you know to be false. You think that by making these false, dishonest assumptions implicit and unstated, your statement is true or at least a reasonable position; rather than fundamentally dishonest. It's a common modality in US right wing media. But the thing is while they are lying *to* their audience, what they have convinced much of their audience to do is lie *to themselves* by internalising their dishonest discourse as a valid way of thinking. It's actually quite sad. And straight out of Orwell.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 27 03:45:22 "This protest was a threat of violence? Because burning a cross in the manner your suggesting sounds to me like a threat of violence." Supporting a war that has the aim of annihilating a country is "not a threat of violence"?
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