Utopia Talk / Politics / Vaccine news

Seb Member	Mon Nov 09 06:13:41 So pfizers product is looking good! Shame about the ultra low temp storage needed. Should hear news on AstraZenecas soon.
renzo marQuez Member	Mon Nov 09 06:20:48 Futures suggest we'll hit a record on the Dow today! http://www...e-in-preventing-infection.html Pfizer, BioNTech say late-stage trial data shows Covid vaccine is more than 90% effective in preventing infection
Daemon Member	Mon Nov 09 06:22:53 Germany is preparing for that case, too. Automatic translation: http://www...e-gesundheitsminister-101.html [...] A total of 60 locations can be assumed nationwide. The delivery of the vaccination doses is only possible at a limited number of locations in each federal state with a view to storage and transport, according to the decision. Suitable locations are to be named by the federal states by November 10th. One of the reasons for this is that some of the vaccines that are currently being developed will probably have to be transported and stored frozen at minus 70 degrees. For this purpose, appropriate ultra-low freezers would have to be procured. [...]
Seb Member	Mon Nov 09 06:47:02 Daemon: Everywhere is - that can. The parameters will have been known for a long time and planned for. The shame is this is a vaccine that works best for the first world with good transport, infrastructure etc. And even then there will likely be significant wastage as it comes in large batches with dilution needed. Logistically, it's a faff. Particularly if you want to vaccinate the housebound/shielding, small care homes, etc. You can work around it of course: just adds cost and complexity.
renzo marQuez Member	Mon Nov 09 06:55:01 Seb, do you know if AstraZeneca's requires the low storage temp?
Wrath of Orion Member	Mon Nov 09 07:33:37 Sounds like manufactured volumes are higher than anticipated a while ago, so that's also a good sign. Still probably looking at the spring of next year sometime for the average person to likely have access to it. It'll be interesting to see how long the effectiveness lasts, too.
renzo marQuez Member	Mon Nov 09 07:42:58 Yeah, doctors and nurses will be the guinea pigs. We should have a lot more info based on their responses before we in the general public have to make a decision about whether to take it or not.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 09 08:15:30 Renzo: Yes I do, but I don't know if it's public domain.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 09 08:17:20 http://www...ines-is-the-cold-supply-chain/ Renzo ^ suggests it needs only to be chilled, not frozen. Make of that what you will.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 09 08:19:01 UK roll out prioritisation (interim) https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/priority-groups-for-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-advice-from-the-jcvi-25-september-2020
Seb Member	Mon Nov 09 08:23:22 WoO: Yup, depending on what average means. If they roll out to offer fifties, health and social care workers, and those with specific risk factors then I think that could potentially be done by spring. It was leaked that the UK was going to start in December. Of course all dependent on phase 3 trials. N.b. vaccine may only suppress symptoms but you may still get and transmit the disease; I think that's still being assessed. Hence focus on those exposed to highest viral loads and by risk factor, of which age remains the biggest.
Dukhat Member	Mon Nov 09 08:29:04 Thank you president Biden for curing the Coronavirus!
Wrath of Orion Member	Mon Nov 09 08:41:06 Yeah, health care workers will likely be served first and then people in the high risk categories. We'll see when the two-month point is reached if there are any health issues. ADE is a real concern here, but regardless, the 90% value is amazing. Realistically, I was hoping for 60% or so. So lots more to do and getting more people to see the data will be important, of course. But yeah, the 90% number is very encouraging and means whatever vaccine(s) we do get are likely to be quite effective.
Dakyron Member	Mon Nov 09 08:49:07 Novavax is the one that does not need to be chilled. But it is farther away from production.
Rugian Member	Mon Nov 09 08:51:16 Dukhat Member Mon Nov 09 08:29:04 Thank you president Biden for curing the Coronavirus! Trolling aside, the media absolutely will take that line. The Trump admin did the heavy lifting, but Biden will get all the credit.
Wrath of Orion Member	Mon Nov 09 08:54:40 It's the one thing Trump did right regarding coronavirus. The one thing. And it's important, no doubt. But he fucked up everything else, lol.
Dakyron Member	Mon Nov 09 08:54:44 Private corporations did the heavy lifting Trump played golf and traveled around. Ever notice only Republicans play golf according to the media?
Wrath of Orion Member	Mon Nov 09 08:56:01 Btw, I have heard CNN acknowledge that Trump should get credit for fast-tracking the vaccine development process in a good way. So that fact has not been ignored by at least one major news outlet.
Average Ameriacn Member	Mon Nov 09 09:16:37 Don't forget that Trump already cured aids and cancer.
Paramount Member	Mon Nov 09 10:48:45 So it didn’t take long at long. Biden has barely been elected and he has already saved the world.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Nov 09 11:13:00 "It'll be interesting to see how long the effectiveness lasts, too." Well thats the real trick isnt it? Anyway, between the biden win without much mandate, and the vaccine, markets are real happy today.
Dakyron Member	Mon Nov 09 11:14:39 Chances are this will be rolled into a Flu vaccine in the future, and will be an annual thing.
The Children Member	Mon Nov 09 11:51:02 is just propaganda. russia already has a vaccine like 2 month ago. and of all da vaccins out there being tested da chinese vaccins are da best. also known for 2 months now. which one of ur fake news media propaganda outlets actually reported it. sweepin it under da rug and then all a sudden this comes out. lmao the older u grow da more reality is revealed.
obaminated Member	Mon Nov 09 11:54:51 Media will give trump credit now that he isnt a threat.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 09 11:55:52 Rugian, WoO: Trump and the US govt did nothing with regards to the Pfizer vaccine. It's not part of the US accelerator program. Largely, as with all Trump admin issues, they through money at candidates and companies they liked, not necessarily the best bets.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 09 11:57:23 The development work is largely Biontec, the German partner. Pfizer brings large scale production and test logistics iirc.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 09 11:58:48 TC: No data on the Russian one, and they were in reference to phase 2 trials. This is from stage 3 trials. The Russians are branding their phase 3 trials as release, which it isn't.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 09 12:01:11 Dakyron: Probably, doesn't sound like it's long lasting and the emergence of new strains (danish mink) and the large reservoir of the virus ... *long hard stare* ... mean we will be living with a deadlier form of flu for a long time.
Wrath of Orion Member	Mon Nov 09 14:13:48 Ah, I had missed that Pfizer was outside of Warp Speed. Then yeah, no real credit to Trump for that one.
Wrath of Orion Member	Mon Nov 09 14:18:54 "Largely, as with all Trump admin issues, they through money at candidates and companies they liked, not necessarily the best bets." And this happens with all administrations. Yes, it's an issue in politics, but it's a pervasive issue. They helped make vaccine development less risky in terms of research funding for several companies and let them get to work. That's a good thing and it's something the Trump group should get credit for. About the only thing, but it's still something. I had forgotten Pfizer was not part of the Warp Speed funding, though.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 09 16:39:17 WoO: I bet you will find plenty of far more overt insider trading and kickbacks in this case.
patom Member	Mon Nov 09 18:28:33 Rugian "Trolling aside, the media absolutely will take that line. The Trump admin did the heavy lifting, but Biden will get all the credit." I didn't know the Trump administration performed any scientific research into the development of a vaccine. Could you source that for us? Biden hasn't made any claims. He is only asking you to wear a mask, wash your hands frequently and maintain social distancing.
Rugian Member	Tue Nov 10 17:09:50 Patom - Educate thyself: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Warp_Speed Seb - Pfizer has taken $2 billion from the administration for production and distribution. How curious that the company left that little fact out when it was publicly disavowing any connection to OWS. But then again, this is the same company that waited until a week AFTER the election to publish this news just to fuck Trump over. So its not surprising to see the TDS in effect here. And even if Pfizer isn't on the accelerator program, the resources provided to other pharmaceutical companies were valuable contributions. You can't discount those as "bad bets" - its not like Johnson and Johnson or AstraZeneca are incompetent at this sort of thing.
Wrath of Orion Member	Tue Nov 10 17:43:45 Yes, OWS is purchasing a shitload of vaccine from Pfizer. That's great. But as it says, they took nothing from OWS for R&D. They didn't wait until a week after the election. The independent board unsealed the results and the company made the announcement the next morning. Leave off with your CT nutter bullshit, it's just embarrassing for you.
Seb Member	Wed Nov 11 10:12:22 Rugian: Oh well. We also gave Pfizer billions for production and distribution. It's called being a customer. On that basis, Amazon ought to be thanking me for effort I put into building it's data centres.
Seb Member	Wed Nov 11 10:13:05 Lol. Yeah Pfizer deliberately prevented is phase III trials from completing!
sam adams Member	Wed Nov 11 13:43:05 Just a reminder seb said uk bureaucrats tracking and tracing would solve uk corona epidemic and prevent a second wave. 600 brits died from it today.
Seb Member	Wed Nov 11 17:32:19 Our second peak still isn't as bad as your third. Our test and trace, deficient as it is, still means we've handled the situation only the second worst in the world. Full implementation of Sam policy is demonstrably a failure, and the best you can say is one implementation of test and trace has at worst been not kept the disease at near zero for long enough. Talk about making the best the enemy of the good.
sam adams Member	Wed Nov 11 17:43:34 "Our second peak still isn't as bad as your third." UP fact check. The per capita daily death rate in the UK is actually 2.5 times higher than the highest US death daily per capita death rate in either our second or third peaks. Why do you always get the most basic shit completely wrong? You are almost never right. You are basically what comes out of a mating between trump and a cnn reporter, who then gets hit by the retard bus, becomes transgender, joins antifa, and meths out.
Seb Member	Thu Nov 12 02:13:51 And after months of refusing to consider daily new cases or deaths as a metric and insisting on using cumulative cases, then deaths, Sam suddenly discovers it's convenient to change his metric of choice to daily new deaths! Deaths lag cases by three weeks though Sam. I guess projection is something you can't do, along with exponentials.
sam adams Member	Thu Nov 12 15:05:17 Oh, so by "still isnt as bad" you actually meant the future? Lol retarded excuse. "I guess projection is something you can't do" Thats cute, coming from the guy that projected the uk controlling covid spread with track an trace 5 months ago.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 16 07:57:14 Moderna vaccine, also c. 94% effective. Looking good then. Shame America decided that it was better to let the vaccine rise exponentially with no real coordinated effort to stop it. When do we think it will hit 200k cases a day?
jergul large member	Mon Nov 16 08:59:02 Seb 94% feasable outside of lab conditions even. The other one may hav 95 under controlled conditions and perhaps half that when distributed. Boy would it be stupid to get covid now. 200k? The day after tomorrow maybe? Exponential growth being what it is, even with 7 day averaging.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 16 09:22:09 Pfizer is from human trials, not lab work (compared to saline). The stability issues after dilution manifest in wastage rather than lower effectiveness. Generally cold chains etc are good at throwing stuff out that may be ineffective due to logistics than using it.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 16 09:22:31 Yup, would be extremely dumb to get covid now.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 16 09:43:03 Ah, apparently the reason why the Modena results came so through so quickly was due to the explosion of cases in the US. So... guess we can thank Trump for that.
patom Member	Mon Nov 16 10:01:37 Trump did his utmost to help in the spread of Covid 19.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Nov 16 10:35:15 Thanks USA for developing these awesome vaccines and saving the world again.
jergul large member	Mon Nov 16 11:11:22 Seb You misunderstood. I meant the logistics would degrade the potency in practical terms. Lab conditions refered to that. Sammy Indeed. Thank you for your sacrifice of 240k to give optimal trial conditions.
Forwyn Member	Mon Nov 16 11:14:48 Slightly more than the EU, if you remove the UK. I'm sure the EU has something great to show for it.
Rugian Member	Mon Nov 16 11:30:17 America's private healthcare once again proved itself by providing the innovation and resources needed to save the world. Meanwhile, Seb's NHS is incapable of treating cancer patients within two months of diagnosis. Lol. America wins again.
Daemon Member	Mon Nov 16 12:22:43 The Pfizer vaccine was developed by a German company that was founded by two Turkish immigrants.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 16 12:27:07 Sam: The US didn't develop Pfizer. Biontec is German (and the IP comes from a turkish immigrant of the kind you want to have shot at the border). Pfizer is just providing manufacturing. Jergul: Yes, that'swhat I understood, but the trials don't occur in the manufacturing plant: the cold chain is the same in both cases. There's no real evidence that effectiveness will be lower in operation. Wastage may be higher, but that's not the same thing. If you get a dose, it is likely ot be just as effectie as if you got it in the trial. Caveat that stability after dilution is still not known yet.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 16 12:31:56 http://www...ovider-based-Provisional-1.pdf 94.5% of people treated began first definitive treatment within 31 days of receiving their diagnosis, all cancers (94.5% in August 2020) Samfail.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 16 12:32:13 Samfail, what is the US statistic?
Seb Member	Mon Nov 16 12:55:13 Oh sorry Sam, those above are at Rugianfail. So easy to get you two mixed up.
Dakyron Member	Mon Nov 16 13:02:43 Saying 40M doses available by Dec 31st So by the spring, we should be virus-free. I can start planning my 2021 vacations now.
jergul large member	Mon Nov 16 13:55:15 Seb I can think of tons of things that will go wrong with a two stage delivery drug in the millions that would not go wrong in clinical trials for thousands. I doubt spoilage is binary. That is one assumption. But the big one is how many people getting the first dose, will get the second at the right time?
Seb Member	Mon Nov 16 14:57:43 Jergul: So can I. But being involved in planning and operationalizing the mass vaccination of a large (55m) OECD country program to mass vaccinate the population using the Pfizer vaccine as one of the several approved vaccines, there are very robust systems in place to track cold chains (this isn't the first drug to require temperature controls). Clinical conditions are exacting. If the drug goes in your arm, it will have maintained control chain. If there's the slightest chance could chain has not been maintained, it goes in the "bin" as wastage. What you will see is high wastage, not lower effecacy.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 16 15:00:57 "But the big one is how many people getting the first dose, will get the second at the right time?" Again, that's wastage. Most of the work has been by around providing the information flows to ensure timing and vaccine history is accurate. We won't be in a situation where we think someone has been immunised but they haven't because an expired drug was administered or was administered at the wrong time.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 16 15:02:21 Hence, effectiveness will remain high, but wastage will be high also.
sam adams Member	Mon Nov 16 15:05:22 The uk doesnt need a vaccine. Seb said they controlled covid with track and trace months ago. Lol.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 16 15:43:57 Babbling to himself, disconnected from reality like Donald Trump.
obaminated Member	Mon Nov 16 15:50:38 One interesting point is that trump barely lost his reelection and it turns out he was screwed by a few weeks for not having a vaccine available yet. History books will look more kindly on his covid reaction than contemporary media will.
Wrath of Orion Member	Mon Nov 16 16:06:14 Only history books written by retards like you, lol.
jergul large member	Mon Nov 16 16:54:59 Seb I was think more that the second dose is unavailable due to spoilage. That -75 is in practice cryogenic (I still love stirling engines in reverse cycle:D. In addition to deep sea fishing stuff that assures more than passing familiarity with coolants).
jergul large member	Mon Nov 16 16:56:02 Obam The vaccine is still not available. We have just seen a pre-release of phase 3 testing.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Nov 16 22:48:57 he's a cultist, & that ridiculous nonsense is what dear leader put out "As I have long said, @Pfizer and the others would only announce a Vaccine after the Election, because they didn’t have the courage to do it before. Likewise, the FDA should have announced it earlier, not for political purposes, but for saving lives! " & " The FDA and the Democrats didn’t want to have me get a Vaccine WIN, prior to the election, so instead it came out five days later – As I’ve said all along! " ~ such a fucking moron... FDA had no role, & announcing it doesn't save lives... & it isn't out yet as noted
Forwyn Member	Mon Nov 16 22:57:25 "The Pfizer vaccine was developed by a German company that was founded by two Turkish immigrants." When Anatolia is retaken, I anticipate a gentler treatment of the populace than the Ottomans gave. There are societal positives to be gained, if the Islamic yoke can be shaken.
Seb Member	Tue Nov 17 01:09:01 Jergul: It lasts a few days after defrosting.
Seb Member	Tue Nov 17 01:39:42 It's certainly true that the Pfizer vaccine legs itself most to centralised, high throughput sites and cohorts where you can easily schedule access (care homes, healthcare workers). AstraZeneca effecacy is the one to look out for. An order of magnitude cheaper than either Moderna or Pfizer.
Seb Member	Tue Nov 17 01:40:43 Hope it's as effective. Pfizer and Modena shared their spike protein data so are quite similar in terms of payload.
jergul large member	Tue Nov 17 04:25:25 Seb It does not really need to be as potent. Though I have to say, the 95% is based on 5 people getting sick. The press releases (I don't even think we can term it preliminary findings) may not be correct in the end. A cocktail mix of high potency for truly vulnerable, run of the mill for normal folk (70+ effectiveness), natural imunity from past illness, and changing habits should beat the R down below 1 in most areas rather quickly.
Seb Member	Tue Nov 17 06:29:27 Jergul: High effectiveness is good in that it reduces the number of people you need to vaccinate to get to herd immunity. Also not clear on whether it suppresses symptoms and transmission or just symptoms; so high effectiveness in the latter case desirable.
Seb Member	Tue Nov 17 06:32:47 Agree that having anything is very good and puts on a sustainable downward trajectory. But 60% Vs 90% makes a huge difference, when you consider the number of people to vaccinate, rate of vaccination, and that length of immunity is not known. How much primary care workforce tied up perpetually mass vaccinating everyone, Vs a transition to seasonal flu type model.
patom Member	Tue Nov 17 06:39:01 Not that it's a bad thing, but Trump is still baring Biden's team from accessing the current Covid plans in effect. Maybe there are some real humans in on it that will just quit and share anything critical with Biden's team.
jergul large member	Tue Nov 17 07:03:29 Patom What plans? :D Seb Its a trade-off, but something cheap and already paid for to supplement something expensive beyond what is already paid for in that sense may make sense. Though note, 70%+ minimum. Vaccines below that level are unlikely to be socio-economically cost effective. There is also a time element. Something 75% concurrent with something 95% is better than 95% sequential.
jergul large member	Tue Nov 17 07:15:14 Covid-19 is 100% effective (for a time), but has serious side effects. 95% vaccine candidate 75% vaccine candidate R = 2 (after population adapting to non-crazy attributes). Herd immunity @ 51%. Assume even split. Of 100 people 20 get immunity (or die) by way of getting covid, 17 get immunity by way of 95%, 13 get immunity by way of 75%. The remaining 50 get herd immunity. For illustrative purposes. Jergulmath as I cannot be bothered with a calculator for this.
jergul large member	Tue Nov 17 07:26:00 The interesting thing is that we can now sort of project how many people still have to die over the next year. I would suggest we are about half done dying. Assuming country and state fuck ups remain about the same.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 23 01:56:10 Astrazenica is 60-90% efficient depending on dosage. Very good news given its much cheaper and easier to transport.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 23 03:38:42 Oh, interesting, Pfizer and Moderna vaccines both only included testing of symptomatic patients to see if they got the diseases in their efficiency meaduees, so their 90-95% results are likely over estimates. Astrazeneca tested everyone. So potentially AstraZeneca could be more effective.
jergul large member	Mon Nov 23 03:58:48 Yah, I think I mentioned the press release quality of the initial zomg 94.5% effective!!
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Nov 23 08:00:31 Faith in humanity has been restored. There was no realistic scenario being talked about that produced a vaccine this fast. Through all the bullshit and politicizing of a pandemic big pharma prevailed! That would be counter conspiracy irony here, big pharma comes to the rescue. Or is it ironic? Isn't this just another ploy for big pharma to pump us with mind control chemicals? They told us it would take years and they did it in less than a year? That is some bullshit right there. What does Alex Jones have to say about this? I really need his guidance.
Dakyron Member	Mon Nov 23 09:18:11 " That would be counter conspiracy irony here, big pharma comes to the rescue. " Well, who do you think released the virus in the first place?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Nov 23 09:24:42 Of course, of course. My bad.
Rugian Member	Mon Nov 23 09:44:20 "A special project [is launched] in the name of 'national security'. At first, it is believed to be a search for biological weapons and it is pursued regardless of its cost. However, the true goal of the project is power, complete and total hegemonic domination. The project, however, ends violently...but the efforts of those involved are not in vain, for a new ability to wage war is born from the blood of one of their victims. Imagine a virus - the most terrifying virus you can, and then imagine that you and you alone have the cure. But if your ultimate goal is power, how best to use such a weapon? It is at this point in our story that along comes a spider. He is a man seemingly without a conscience; for whom the ends always justify the means, and it is he who suggests that their target should not be an enemy of the country but rather the country itself... Several hundred die within the first few weeks. Until at last the true goal comes into view. Before the crisis, no one would have predicted the outcome of the elections. No one. But after the election, lo and behold, a miracle. Some believed that it was the work of God himself, but it was a pharmaceutical company controlled by certain party members made them all obscenely rich. But the true genius of the plan was the fear. A year later, several extremists are tried, found guilty, and executed while a memorial is built to canonize their victims. Fear became the ultimate tool of this government...the rest, as they say, is history." -V For Vendetta
Seb Member	Mon Nov 23 09:45:35 The media estimates of at least 18 months were based on previous bests, and did not account for work in progress on vaccines for other coronsviruses to that were repurposed.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Nov 23 10:14:09 So the oxford vaccine is pretty much trash. 70%? Lol! Like i said seb, when you are saved by a US vaccine, make sure to thank your betters.
Dakyron Member	Mon Nov 23 10:19:38 Yeah, Sam, but its cheap and easy to transport so they are going to give it out to poor countries, so the west does not feel guilty about keeping the vaccine doses for themselves.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 23 11:20:06 Sam: 90% if the first jab is a half dose - and the figures are not comparable. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccine did not check whether anyone asymptomatic had an infection. Given that most covid infections are asymptomatic...
Sam Adams Member	Mon Nov 23 11:21:34 Good point. Inferior british shit will make a useful carrot to keep the unintelligent whiners of the far-left from braying too hard.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 23 11:26:12 What may be happening is that if the first priming dose is too high, the adenovirus vector provokes an immune response rather than the corona-virus spike protein it carries so that the second dose is then less effective. All in all, the astrazenica results are the only ones to be peer reviewed, and the methodology of swabbing asymptomatic people regularly means that the figures are more robust. And if you can halve the first dose to get 90% efficacy then vaccine is not only cheaper, but supply is 50% greater. I trust Sam, you will be thanking your betters at Oxford, that university nobody wants to go to.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Nov 23 11:26:46 More whiny excuses from seb. Lol. Pathetic.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 23 11:27:39 70% is a classic Sam figure. The mean of a bimodal distribution with two peaks at 60% and 90% correlated with a control variable that is ignored. Classic samstistics: crash numbers together without any sense of their meaning until you get a figure.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 23 11:28:40 What you call excuses the rest of the world calls "understanding".
Sam Adams Member	Mon Nov 23 11:28:47 AstraZeneca stock: -2.5% Moderna stock: +2.5% Those in the know have spoken. You lose again seb.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 23 11:38:25 "One dosing regimen (n=2,741) showed vaccine efficacy of 90% when AZD1222 was given as a half dose, followed by a full dose at least one month apart, and another dosing regimen (n=8,895) showed 62% efficacy when given as two full doses at least one month apart. The combined analysis from both dosing regimens (n=11,636) resulted in an average efficacy of 70%. All results were statistically significant (p<=0.0001). More data will continue to accumulate and additional analysis will be conducted, refining the efficacy reading and establishing the duration of protection."
Seb Member	Mon Nov 23 11:40:16 Naturally, Sam think that stockbrokers are more knowledgeable than scientists. The reality is that those buying and selling stock are looking at the 70% figure and not understanding the meaning. Like you Sam. Fluffy studies types.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Nov 23 11:42:12 AstraZeneca stock: -3% relative to sp500 baseline. Underwealming results, even compared with the low expectations set for lesser nations.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Nov 23 11:45:03 People with their own money in the game work harder(in this case do more research) to protect it. This is why capitalism wins, sebs lose, and why the stock market is a pretty good first-look. "Thank you america for saving us yet again" -what seb would be saying if he had any honor.
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