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Utopia Talk / Politics / sebs strike again
sam adams
Member
Sun Jul 12 19:21:21
http://mob...ice/status/1282341956199350272

We were alerted to a series of racist messages sent to a footballer today and after looking into them and conducting checks, we have arrested a boy.

The 12-year-old from #Solihull has been taken to custody.

Thanks to everyone who raised it. Racism won't be tolerated.
sam adams
Member
Sun Jul 12 19:21:46
-british police



Rofl
obaminated
Member
Sun Jul 12 22:16:48
Seb will defend this.
obaminated
Member
Sun Jul 12 22:23:23
Haha look at the comment section. you brits are pathetically spineless and have happily sold your freedom away.
Pillz
Member
Sun Jul 12 22:55:38
Congratulations on making the UK a little more gay seb
Dukhat
Member
Mon Jul 13 00:00:06
Good. Get them early before they are irreparable like the dumbfuck cuckservative idiots on this board.
Seb
Member
Mon Jul 13 02:55:21
Arrest seems OTT, but yes, racial harassment is a crime.
McKobb
Member
Mon Jul 13 03:06:01
French adjacent
Seb
Member
Mon Jul 13 04:20:23
And casual racial hatred is German adjacent.

sam adams
Member
Mon Jul 13 12:36:41
You arrested a 12 year old for typing.
Dakyron
Member
Mon Jul 13 12:41:00
You arrested a 12 year old for harassing an adult on twitter?
McKobb
Member
Mon Jul 13 12:53:47
Seb wants UK kids to live in a world of whispers. I'm no fan of racists, but I would rather they say their dumb shit out loud so I know who they are.
Forwyn
Member
Mon Jul 13 13:12:10
The same people who are fine with the police picking him up, and are on Twitter calling for the parents to be picked up as well, would go ballistic if the dad just beat that ass.
sam adams
Member
Mon Jul 13 13:16:56
The same people who scream defund the police are cheering that the police arrested a 12 year old child.
Seb
Member
Mon Jul 13 13:28:32
McKobb:

Yes, but I'm guessing you don't get targeted by racist abuse and have to live with it.

Forwyn:

Yes, obviously. It's not like the choice is "Arrest the kid, or have the father assault him". Of the two, I'd prefer the former.

I'd prefer if the police had instead had a word with his parents. Possibly they did and the parents were dismissive and racist, leaving the police little other option (bad parenting is not a crime).

Note how I'm not saying something retarded like "the same people decrying the police arresting the kid would be screaming if he was taken into care and placed with foster parents".

Seb
Member
Mon Jul 13 13:45:59
Sam:

You extradited three UK bankers and locked them up for just typing too. Think Sam. Full on arrest, sentencing. Put in a foreign jail. Just for typing!

Did the same to the guy who stoped wannacry. Arrested him in an airport, and convicted him. Just for typing. Typing Sam. Typing on a computer. Just think of it Sam. Typing. Actual criminal conviction. Just for typing. All he did was type!
sam adams
Member
Mon Jul 13 15:05:48
Seb, in the most retarded stawman qrgument of sll time, compares adults comitting organized fraud with 12 year olds typing offensive words.

33
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jul 13 15:27:37
Seb

>>Yes, but I'm guessing you don't get targeted by racist abuse and have to live with it.<<

Problem with that, is that I (a first gen Iranian immigrant in Sweden) told you basically the same thing as Mckobb, during a lengthy discussion where I tried to provide some nuance. Your conclusion was that it was a ”fragile ego” holding me back from seeing the Truth. So, regardless of who has experienced what, it does not matter for you, as you are the sole proprietor of the Truth.
Seb
Member
Mon Jul 13 16:25:22
Sam:

A 12 year old racially aggravated harassment.

It's a crime, even though it is just typing. Like fraud. Just typing. But has consequences.
Seb
Member
Mon Jul 13 16:27:45
Nim:

Fragile ego?

No.

I did say that the fact you don't experience it doesn't invalidate the fact that others do.

The person who is laying claim to "sole proprietorship of the truth" is the person saying "I'm an immigrant, listen to my experience, those other immigrants are lying", which is kinda what you said, referring to the kids that were "laughing at us" by throwing racism charges around.
Pillz
Member
Mon Jul 13 16:33:11
Bank fraud is equivalent to a tweet by tween.

Oh wow.
sam adams
Member
Mon Jul 13 16:33:11
Its a 12 year old seb.

Stop being a gestapo retard.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jul 13 16:45:25
Seb
Member Sat Jun 13 09:49:18
It might help, but honestly I'm skeptical.

It's another concession to the brittle ego of those who don't face disadvantage.

And once it is widely understood to mean racism, it'll provoke the same reaction.
***
The person who is laying claim to "sole proprietorship of the truth" is the person saying "I'm an immigrant, listen to my experience, those other immigrants are lying"

Not the "seb kinda" what I said, this is what I actually said.


"I have always suggested to listen to more and differing views and experiences than those that only validate your world view. Are you discounting my claims? Because I claim I have seen my entire life black and brown kids milk this sweet ”racism” titty laughing at naive white people like you. That is a shared experience behind your back."

Are you discounting those experiences I have had, you never gave a clear answer? Nuance. Swoosh.

Now please quote where I have said I have not experienced racism. Because I remember in great details, all the times that I have, starting at the age of 9. So this will be interesting. Or, I said:

"You can have experiences and still draw the wrong conclusions"

Go on.
Forwyn
Member
Mon Jul 13 17:57:42
"It's not like the choice is "Arrest the kid, or have the father assault him". Of the two, I'd prefer the former."

Cuck
Cherub Cow
Member
Mon Jul 13 20:31:29
This 12-year-old will learn protective stupidity like a good Oceania citizen! He must learn to fear his very thoughts. Thoughtcrime must be stopped in its infancy — ideally just before puberty makes one particularly vulnerable to impulses that challenge Ingsoc. After reprogramming, he will be much more cooperative, less he face becoming an unperson.
obaminated
Member
Mon Jul 13 21:05:24
http://www...e-grooming-gangs-30-years.html

Priorities for the sebs. Ignore child rape cause it involes minorities as the disgusting creatures they are. But go after a 12 year old who wrote mean things to an adult.
Cherub Cow
Member
Mon Jul 13 21:24:58
But of course! A principle of crimestop is that the public must be taught to ignore data which competes with state narrative. If people were more aware of child abuse crimes, they might be quite enraged, whereas an unaware public is a pacified public. Why burden citizens with knowledge which may steer them to unapproved thoughts?
Seb
Member
Tue Jul 14 01:44:11
Pillz:

No. But it's not equivalent to "just typing" either.
Seb
Member
Tue Jul 14 01:58:28
Nim:

Conflating two different things.

On no way does that sentence mean "your brittle ego is preventing you seeing the truth".

Words mean things nimatzo, you cant just lift them from one sentence and stick them in another.

Regarding your second point, as I said at the time, your experience doesn't obviate others. So whether your experience is true or not, it cannot lay claim to bring the *whole* truth. I'm sorry but I'm not going base my entire approach to structural racism on one internet petsonas say so.

Forwyn:
Ah, so manly men beat their children.
Nim, take note, that's what toxic masculinity is.

Obaminated:
Yes, it's a clear either or isn't it. To focus on groomig you definitely need to ignore racism, also any other crime you don't think is important.

Police didn't ignore the grooming because of a lack of resources. As it happens if you read the reports, it wasn't actually fear of racism either: it was because they figured the girls were "up for it" and "little prostitutes" and not worthy of protection. They were certainly threatened by local politicians with accusations of racism, those politicians being business partners with perpetrators. But this is like saying the police don't look into Mafia deals because of their misunderstanding of building codes.


Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jul 14 03:42:31
That is pretty much what you are saying dumbass. A consession of the truth to those with fragile egos. And at any rate clealy the experiences of the person wirh racism does not matter.

Now quote where I have said my experience invalidates others peoples experiences.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jul 14 03:47:24
So it is quite dishonest to tell Mckobb ”easy for you to say, you don’t have to live with racism”. As a racism ”surviver” I am telling you, you have a rather dim view on this.
Seb
Member
Tue Jul 14 04:21:19
Nim:

What is the object of the sentence? It is not "you seeing the truth". You've actually taken the entire post that is referring to something else in the thread.

http://www...hread=85850&time=1592066542838

In that post, I'm clearly replying to jerguls immediately preceding post, who suggests we rebrand racism as prejudicial behaviour so as to avoid offending police. That's the concession to brittle egos, of hypothetical policemen.

Kindly fuck right off into the sea with this sort of dishonesty. It's Sam level stuff. Dumbass.

I'll address the other point as and when you can demonstrate basic honesty, or withdraw your comment.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jul 14 04:35:43
It is implied in all the things you have said, in that thread and in this one and in other ones on this topic.

I suggest you shut the fuck up and let people of color talk about their experiences. We don’t need your input white guy. Unless that input is you merely pointing out that there is a wide variety of experiences, conclusions and opinions among racified people. Anything other than that shows you are a dishonest peddler of bullshit who thinks racified people are monolithic, i.e racist.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jul 14 04:42:22
No, I am tired of white people invalidating my nuanced experience and those of my fellow immigrants. I am not even joking a little here. You need to shut the fuck up and stop taking sp much space on this issue, your second and third hand stories mean NOTHING. I have first hand experience, as a male who was never mistaken for anything but a foreigner.

The male part is important, because immigrant males are those that are the primary suspects for racism. Nobody cares about the women, it’s the men who rape, murder, become terrorists and do all the terrible things. So, again, shut the fuck up.
Seb
Member
Tue Jul 14 05:55:28
Nim:

The word you are looking for is inferred. And if it's implicit, why are you quoting specific words from a specific passage that are not addressed to you, about you, or even about your context (given your entire argument in that thread was the US context and European context was absolutely incomparable)?

You are welcome to talk about your experiences. I an happy to accept them. But I'm not going to take your personal experiences as definitive of what all BAME experiences when I have other people - real people I actually know and events I have witnessed - who recount their experiences which differ from yours; alongside legions of others who like you are anonymous individuals on the web - and unlike you are not engaging in obvious bad faith. Both experiences can be true, but your absence of experiencing what they have doesn't mean they are lying and you have the sole claim to truth. It just means your experience differs. Stop insisting your experience is definitive.

"who thinks racified people are monolithic"

This is just bizarre. You are the one arguing against taking other peoples experience into account other than yours.


This, with its apeing of the language of the rights movement, is trivially obvious trolling, attempting to try and demonstrate "woke concepts" lack self consistency and are hypocritical. They aren't. You are just thick. Try harder.

To the substantive point, it's all very well those who do not bare the brunt of discrimination and racial or sexual or other forms of harassment to say "I'd rather see it in the open so we can...", What exactly? Criticise it and this drive it back underground again? Quietly disapprove? Tollerate it but disapprove and feel morally smug?

But what of the targets of such behaviour?

It's just prioritising those harassing others, and it also leads to a society of whispers when people who bare the brunt of it are marginalised or excluded.

If someone's going to be driven underground, let it be the racists.

But I'm not going to prioritise a racists freedom of expression over minorities freedom to go about their day without being harassed.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jul 14 06:30:23
No, I mean implied, because it is not something you have directly expressed in those exact words, "I know the truth", but with synonyms. "Glib" "willfully blinkered" "fragile ego". As you you know the truth, everyone else regardless of their background are being those things. Apprently I understand english and you do not.

It it also a fact that I inferred this from the implications of what you are saying, but we are talking about you, not me.

"I an happy to accept them."

Accepting something does not include all the words you used to describe my experiences. Do you understand what "glib" means? It means shallow and insincere. Quite the accusation. If you are willing to retract those things, I am willing to concede that emotions get the best of all of us.

"Both experiences can be true, but your absence of experiencing what they have doesn't mean they are lying and you have the sole claim to truth."

My claim was that experiences do not validate conclusion about the system. You can experience things that give you the wrong impression, conclude things based on availability bias. Not that their experiences were not REAL. In fact I said, EVEN imaginary grievances must be taken seriously and unravelled. Which is what I do IRL talking to "my" people who are often stuck inside a ghetto bubble that reinforces all their terrible conclusions about the country.

"This is just bizarre. You are the one arguing against taking other peoples experience into account other than yours."

Nope, read above. You have no fucking idea what I do. I mentored an Iranian (engineer) woman, one of the first things she tells me. "I am disadvantaged as an immigrant and female". I had to talk for an hour to dispel this. "It's not true, this is the best country for a woman like you, and the racists people don't worry about you women, it's the men that are in the news". So, if I did it, there is no reason why you couldn't. And did it she did.

"What exactly?"

Subdue it. We are all born with the capacity for racism and othering, it is an evolutionary adaptive behavior. A behavior that can be subdued or amplified with _socialization_. You can't de-radicalize or dispel myths in peoples heads that you never see, can you?

You have never for obvious reasons had to deal with these issue, I have. Yes I think my strategy, both mentoring immigrants (women especially) and dealing with racism is better than yours.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jul 14 06:46:14
You can shit talk with racists all you like on UP, but you have nothing insightful or constructive to say about racism and how to deal with it. Despite that I concede that you come from a good place. You are not a bad person, your _heart_ is in the right place, but your brain has capitulated.
jergul
large member
Tue Jul 14 08:16:13
I have said before. Racism can be dealt with. Truth+Reconciliation = Win.

But the truth part seems horrendously difficult. Its also a two way street.

One definition of garbage is "something that does not belong". Like a perfectly good workboot on a dinner table.

Some cultural stuff may be fine and perfectly understandable in a Pakistani mountain village, but is garbage when brought to Sweden.
Seb
Member
Tue Jul 14 09:47:06
Nim:

I'm really not going to engage with what amounts to delusional level of paranoia. How does describing jerguls suggestion that we refer to racism as "an act of prejudice" which he proposes as more digestible to them as "a concession to fragile ego" imply that I'm the sole arbiter of truth?

"It it also a fact that I inferred"
Yes. But I'm not accountable for your baseless inferences.

" Do you understand what "glib" means? It means shallow and insincere."

I believe what I described as glib was not your experience, but your casual dismissal of others which was indeed shallow and casual.

Again, choosing to interpret this as suggesting your experience wasn't sincere is not what was intended and, I think, obviously so. And given your insistent pastiche of the rights based terminology you reject woven through your baseless complaint, right now you are certainly coming across as insincere in the offence taken.

""I am disadvantaged as an immigrant and female". I had to talk for an hour to dispel this."

So, let me get this straight, you are offering as an example of how open you are accepting of other people's experience a case study in how you, in a position of responsibility, spent an hour telling a woman she was wrong about her experiences?

Are you drinking?
Seb
Member
Tue Jul 14 09:51:20
You are aware I'm married to a BAME woman and my child's mixed race. You seem convinced I've never experienced racism when that fact is brought up performatively regularly here. So I've nothing to contribute because you know what it's like to experience racism, but I'm rejecting your experience, and you know it's worse for men (despite not being a woman or having experienced what they experienced), and you evidence your willingness to accept others opinion by explaining how you convinced (more likely, browbeat) a mentee to recant over the course of an hour.


I mean... are you reading what you write?

Seb
Member
Tue Jul 14 10:06:21
Going back to the original point then, you have a 12 year old that's engaging in egregious racial harassment.

1. Is it fair to say "sorry you are being harassed, but it is important this happens in the open so we can intervene and rehabilitate the individual"
2. How does it make sense then that any official intervention is then deemed unhelpful and "driving the issue underground"

It seems the only acceptable intervention is no intervention. Sure intervention may drive a fraction of racists to not act on their racism so openly.

Good.

That's a win.

But that's an inevitable consequence of intervention. To avoid intervening because it would prevent manifestation of the problem is illogical and so inhibit the intervention you are avoiding anyway is wholly illogical.

Plus, when it's the group that isn't experiencing racism, its deciding for others the degree of harassment and advise they should experience.
sam adams
Member
Tue Jul 14 11:45:48
"and my child's mixed race."

And you want to give it an advantage by discriminating against whites and asians.

Which is going to have the opposite effect of what you want. Your position will only ever cause pushback and contribute to the view that any job it ever has was achieved only through affirmative action.
Forwyn
Member
Tue Jul 14 11:51:22
"It seems the only acceptable intervention is no intervention."

No, they just don't want fucking cops taking the kid down to the station.

If it's such an issue that cops are tracking it (which they shouldn't be, barring threats - Twitter is perfectly capable of banning the individual), notify the parents, who we generally expect to strictly intervene.

Of course, you object to anything beyond a stern talking and timeout.

So, cops. Criminal justice system.

lol
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jul 14 14:34:55
Jergul
Not sure truth and reconcilation should be abused as a concept for every form of cultural clash and/or racism. It has a specific meaning in my ears, I think of South Africa, Rwanda, FYR and Syria. Quite bloody affairs, not really what is going on in the UK or Sweden. Some form of reconcilation is in order for this social conflict, that is a two way street.
sam adams
Member
Tue Jul 14 14:41:28
"Exclusive: Covid Test Data Held Back From Publication Over Community Cohesion Concerns
Councils are concerned that the government's plan to publish postcode-level data could lead to certain neighbourhoods being stigmatised."

http://m.h...0kvRU1iFhC_LPU625PpNlvabh2JoFk


UK bureaucrats responsible for covid response(apperently sebs job - lol) caught trying to hide covid data because they thought it would make minority neighborhoods look bad.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jul 14 14:46:50
Seb
Exactly ”casual dismissal” there is nothing casual about it. It may seem insensitive, but casual it is not. It is the results of a roller coaster ride starting on with a 6 year old arriving to Sweden. That’s 33 years of a life.

I am well aware that you married into this, in more ways than simply your wifes heritage. My guess is that there is a far more institutional ”marriage” to this narrative going on, in your case. You never had to deal with it yourself.

Yes seb, the men do have it ”worse” in this case. Nobody gives a shit about the women, it is the men that are made suspect. Black men, Muslim Men, middle eastern men, with beards ”forcing their women”. Men, men, men. There is no way to deal with someone that got suckered into an alternate reality.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jul 14 14:49:47
I can’t stress this enough, you really don’t have anything to contribute. People who have black and white goggles have very limited contributions to make. And we have already heard them all from people like you.
Seb
Member
Tue Jul 14 15:11:13
Forwyn:

The victim made a complaint to the police that they were being subjected to repeated harassment with racial abuse.

That's a crime.

Twitter isn't a sovereign territory, and people are allowed to make a complaint regarding an individual's behaviour.

A crime doesn't cease to be a crime because it was committed via social media, and while platforms may share some responsibilities and duties of care, the perpetrator retains responsibility.

"you object to anything beyond a stern talking and timeout."

Learn to read. I actually expressed a preference for exactly that, but noted such an option would require the cooperation of the parents so might not have been an option.


Nimatzo:

Yes, it's extremely casual to dismiss other peoples experiences of events you were not party to based solely on your own.

"You never had to deal with it yourself."
I've been on a train, defending my child, wife, and our friends (also a mixed race couple) and their six year old daughter from three extremely drunk football fans chucking beer cans at us, and one of them repeatedly standing up and lurching towards us going on about how they are going to "fucking pay you back for the Falklands you dirty spics", all because we spoke in Spanish in front of them.

I'm so glad to know I didn't actually experience that or have to deal with it. I mean, it's possible we all could have just had a wrong impression of what was happening.

Sorry Nim, you don't have the monopoly on experience of racism and don't get to define objective reality here.

Seb
Member
Tue Jul 14 15:12:35
"Nobody gives a shit about the women"

Remember all the crap about people wearing head scarves and burquas, and how some of them got racial abuse and even violence..
All men were they?
jergul
large member
Tue Jul 14 15:31:33
Nimi
Truth and reconciliation is by definition a two way street. Or at least, that is what I was trying to say.

Majority Swede: Kinda sucks the way we freeze minorities out of society in more ways than I can imagine. I am sorry. I will try to do better. Please tell me when I fuck up.

Minority Swede: I kinda get it. Scary some of the things my parents brought with them from their villages. I understand the sceptism. Some things fit poorly here. We all have baggage. I guess the best we can do is teach our kids to do better.

Something like that. It sounds like assimilation, but its not. Its just a question of getting rid of the worst misfits in both perspectives.
Forwyn
Member
Tue Jul 14 15:41:28
"repeated harassment with racial abuse."

i.e. sent two mean messages with two mean memes in the span of a minute

If someone leaves four separate post-it notes in your mailbox, that's not "repeated harassment".

"That's a crime."

And I know you're too retarded to understand discretion should be utilized when it's a twelve-year old child.

"Twitter isn't a sovereign territory, and people are allowed to make a complaint regarding an individual's behaviour."

Anyone can complain about anything they like. I can complain about you being retarded, the police don't need to waste public resources chasing down a child who made no threats.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jul 14 15:48:25
Jergul
That does not sound like assimilation, it is integration, which is a two way street. Assimilation is a one way street. I appreciate the clarification, but I still think truth and reconciliation is not the proper words. Unless we are using them very broadly: we should be honest with each other and reconcile our differences (integrate). Ok. This seems reasonable enough. The problem I see, is that in most versions of this, the native population are the ones expected to make most of the concessions.

I appreciate you pointing out that this is a two way street, I think that goes a long way. I am just not sure of the volume in each direction. I know my preference after 33 years of soaking up Scandinavian and western sensibilities.
Dakyron
Member
Tue Jul 14 15:57:01
"You are not a bad person, your _heart_ is in the right place, but your brain has capitulated. "

One day this will be Seb's epitaph.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jul 14 16:02:00
Seb
"Yes, it's extremely casual to dismiss other peoples experiences of events you were not party to based solely on your own."

Keep repeating it and eventually it will be true, like Candy man.

"three extremely drunk football fans chucking beer cans at us"

Thank you for proving my point, the things you consider racism. Drunken football fans, known for the well mannered behavior. Jesus Christ, how did you start living in this parody?

The shameful way in which you try to insert yourself through these asinine proxies, is quite frankly revolting. You think I am exaggerating, but I am not.

"Remember all the crap about people wearing head scarves and burquas, and how some of them got racial abuse and even violence..
All men were they?"

You chose the most EXTREME of example, so let's go all the way then. Yes you dumbass, because even that burqa wearing women, nobody give a shit about her, it's the husband at her side, her brother or her father that is the primary worry in the extreme and patriarchal culture that it symbolizes. I don't absolve the Islamic State women, as you remember, but only someone as clueless as you would say something like this.
jergul
large member
Tue Jul 14 16:07:22
Nimi
My perspective if more of an indigenous slant. Loss of language and death of culture stuff. State orchestrated.

But...

The primary stormtrooper were always the Sami themselves. Parents were the ones that did not transfer culture, language and identity to their children.

So, yah. TRUTH, then reconciliation. And the truth hurts.
jergul
large member
Tue Jul 14 16:09:59
Minority Swedes have the same kind of issues I think. Fucked up big time by parents singularily failing at preparing them for a normal swedish life.

Truth involves parents accepting a huge part of the responsibility for the troubles their children ran into in Swedish society.

That truth is a hurtful truth.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jul 14 16:10:12
Either men are responsible for most of the violence, or they are not. Either extremely patriarchal cultures are problematic or they are not. It always leads back to the men, because the men are more aggressive, more dominant and more likely to act out. I can't believe these things have to be explained. You obviously do not understand the concept of "female privilege" when it comes to matters of criminal profiling and suspicion of general misbehavior. Even as a white man, you should have picked this up, I have no idea how sheltered your life has been, but It sounds pretty cozy. Upper class family? Private school?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jul 14 16:22:06
Jergul
Well, your peoples story I would agree crosses the boundary of where truth and reconciliation (the way I think of it) would be proper. It just does not compare to what *I* and people like me have been through. I would never even refer to it as some ordeal we have been through.

They are different in some significant ways. Sweden and Norway was imposed on the Sapmi, it was not imposed on us who migrated here. We chose to come here, our trauma didn't take place in Scandinavia. It happened in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Somalia. That truth is more important to me than the haphazard racism I have experiences over these 3 decades.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jul 14 16:23:29
It just does not compare to what *I* and people like me have been through *in Sweden*.
Habebe
Member
Tue Jul 14 16:30:26
Nimatzo, There is no one like you, only you.
Seb
Member
Tue Jul 14 16:31:21
Forwyn:

It's a crime. It's been reported.

It's not up to the police to decide which crimes they should bother enforcing.

Discretion can be followed. So let's say they knock on the parents door, and say "we've received a complaint about your son. He's publicly abusing a footballer using racist language. Could you make sure he doesn't do it again"

And the parents go "Fuck off, he's a kid, shouldn't be a crime to call a wog a wog".

Well, then you would probably arrest the kid to underline to the parents if they don't get their kid to obey the law, then the kid will get arrested.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jul 14 16:38:31
Exactly what does it mean that the boy has been taken into custody. Do they mean for a hearing, or is he spending time in a cell?
Seb
Member
Tue Jul 14 16:49:18
Nim:

Yes, I consider someone who wants to beat the shit out of me, my wife, and our friends, because they are dirty Spics (a derogatory term for hispanics), is in fact racism.

The fact that football hooligans are known for racism, and violence, especially when drunk, does not make the incident "not racist".

I think this actually rather proves my point. In your mind, the only person qualified to determine what counts as experience of racism is, apparently you.

"EXTREME"
How is that extreme? It's one of the most common forms of racism in the UK. Even our current PM recently engaged in a bit of light abuse against them while a cabinet minister.

"Yes you dumbass, because even that burqa wearing women, nobody give a shit about her"

"... is the primary worry in the extreme and patriarchal culture that it symbolizes."

No, no it's not. It's often simple hatred of those considered foreign. You don't spit at a women because you are concerned about the symbolism of the burqua and the evidence it represents of patriarchal overbearing of her husband (who often isn't at her side at the time), she's supposedly the victim. You spit at such people because you hate *them* and what *they* represent to you.

You are delusional Nim.

"I don't absolve the Islamic State women"
Right, yes, all the people who get subjected to abuse in the west around the burqua are Islamic state women... what fucking planet are you on? Are you microdosing again?

"Either men are responsible for most of the violence, or they are not. Either extremely patriarchal cultures are problematic or they are not."

Goddamit, you are acting like racial prejudice is motivated by a legitimate and rational critique of patriarchal cultures and justified fear of violence. None of anything you have just said is at all relevant.

Your entire argument is built on a fundamental assumption that racism is built on a rational fear. What motivates racism can be a set of entirely contradictory statements because it often isn't in the slightest bit rational.

They can be "coming here to steal our jobs" while also "scrounging off the state and not paying taxes", "Stealing our women" while "not mixing with the rest of us, importing their foreign women, breeding us out and replacing us".

So yes, absolutely, racist can bang on about the aggressive patriarchal cultures being very different from our enlightened western ways, while spitting on the supposedly oppressed women, getting into fights with the police every game night, and beating their own wives to a pulp - and not even notice the contradictions.



Pillz
Member
Tue Jul 14 17:13:16
You're missing the point. Racism shouldn't a crime, so it doesn't matter who determines what is or is not Racist.

Assault is a crime. Threatening people is a crime. Whys racism play into it?
Seb
Member
Tue Jul 14 17:38:08
Nim:

"Exactly what does it mean that the boy has been taken into custody. Do they mean for a hearing, or is he spending time in a cell?"

Neither. It means he was taken to the police station under caution. He would be interviewed, with a lawyer and a social worker present (can't recall if parents are involved), and then released.

The age of criminal culpability in the UK is 10, so potentially he could be charged in a youth court. The police have the discretion as to what to do next:
1. No further action
2. Community Resolution
3. Youth Caution
4. Youth Conditional Caution
5. Charge

However, offences considered race or religious hate crimes are indictable only and have to be referred to the Crown Prosecution Service who makes the decision (i.e. they have first refusal on charges or lesser options).

In all likelihood, this will get no further than a stern talking to under caution in an interview setting with a lawyer and social worker present, and perhaps a Youth Caution being issued.

And I do not know, but would strongly suspect this would only occur if the parents behaved in a manner that made the police think that just turning up and telling him to knock it off wasn't going to work. However, given it's all very public, "though heaven falls, justice must be done and seen to be done".

Forwyn:

Just looked it up, considerably more than two tweets. Seems a string of messages, and likely to be taken as more serious as direct messages. I.e. you can't really claim it was preformative, not intended to be actually noticed by the individual, in this case clearly directed and intended to cause distress. From a legal perspective, it's a pretty slam dunk case hitting all the key points with ease.

So, the objection is either:
a. racial harassment isn't serious
b. kids shouldn't be held criminally responsible/responsible at all due to his age.

Looking at the string of messages, I think a. doesn't really stand at all. If you'd sent this in the post, it would be a criminal offence.

On b. at 12, you would be prosecuted in the UK for theft or assault, and whether you think that is right or not (personally I think criminal culpability in the UK is way too young), but given the egregious and deliberate nature of the crime, unless his parents came down on him like a ton of bricks in front of the police, I can see a strong case for a short sharp shock of being taken to a police station, formally interviewed, the seriousness of the crime and the absolute possibility of very serious consequences following if it ever happened again a perfectly reasonable approach.


Otherwise he's going to do it again, and again. What age do we draw the line? 18? Well we already drew the line at 10, so it does nobody any favours to have an ad-hoc approach where people are encouraged to get all the way to adulthood believing what is in fact a serious crime is not taken seriously, only to turn around a day after they turn 18 and throw the full weight of the adult court system at them.

I can also see that because it is high profile, the police have to be seen to signal the seriousness of the issue, otherwise every 12 year old kid starts doing it for shits and giggles if they think they can get away with it.

Seb
Member
Tue Jul 14 17:41:41
Pillz:

Harassment is a crime and racism is an aggravating factor. You might think it ought not to be, but it is.

Burglars probably also think theft ought not to be a crime too.
sam adams
Member
Tue Jul 14 17:46:55
"Wrongthink" is a crime, according to seb.

No wonder you are poorer than alabama. Stupidity and state control is a poor way to attract quality minds.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jul 14 18:09:08
Seb
"Yes, I consider someone who wants to beat the shit out of me, my wife, and our friends, because they are dirty Spics (a derogatory term for hispanics), is in fact racism."

Not even this one you could get right. It isn't the type of racism anyone should care about. It isn't indicative for any larger structural issue. White trash be white trashing. How you can not understand what I am saying about experiences and the wrong conclusions about systems, is beyond me. Whatever the effect of microdoses, once it wears off, it's gone. But whatever it is you have is permanent.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jul 14 18:13:14
And you call me paranoid, the guy who connect the dots between random white trash and violent criminals as system of oppression and injustice, rooted in slavery. It's as farcical as it is sad and depressing.
Seb
Member
Tue Jul 14 18:13:35
Sam:
Thinking is fine. Harassment is not. Just like typing is fine, but a blackmail note is not.

If he expressed his thoughts as generalities, rather than in terms of threats specifically and personally addressed to the individual he would not have committed a crime. The figure of the crime is:

Behaviour which is intended to cause distress or alarm that occurs on one or more occasion. It has been found in courts that two sequential texts is sufficient.

In this case "better not score any goals you black cunt, or ill come around to your house dressed as a ghost" followed by a picture of the KKK in their robes, and then a string of other images and messages.

These were sent as direct messages on Instagram by the looks of the screen cap.

The intent was clearly to cause distress or alarm, the first message was a threat, albeit a hollow one now we know the perpetrator was a 12 year old boy (but could equally be a crazed Sam like the chap who killed Jo Cox).

Precedent says this was on more than one occasion. That on its own would be harassment.

Because there is also the clear racial hatred element to it also, it falls under the hate crime legislation, but this still needs an underlying crime, in this case harassment to be triggered. In such a situation you would need to show that you were targeted because of your race. In this case, the prosecutor would find that relatively easy. The defence would have to try and show that the individual would have been harassing this individual for some other reason than his race - unless he happened to have been harassing the rest of the white players, I think it will not be hard to persuade a jury (or in this case, panel of magistrates as a youth court) that the race of the victim was the primary motivation.

So, no, not wrongthink. Or "just typing", it's a clear crime. Which is also racially aggravated.

Seb
Member
Tue Jul 14 18:16:28
Nim:

Ah, there we go again, telling people what we should and shouldn't care about. Yes, I often do not care about me, me wife, and my infant being physically attacked by a drunk man who takes exception to their race. Attacking a mother and child under the age of 1 pelting them with beer cans is nothing anyone should ever care about.

Jesus, just quite the booze.
Seb
Member
Tue Jul 14 18:24:08
"the guy who connect the dots between random white trash and violent criminals as system of oppression and injustice, rooted in slavery."

Oh my god this is just incoherent. As I explained clearly at the time, the experience of racism towards blacks in Europe and America has commonalities to the shared streotyping of blacks as subhuman so as to justify what would otherwise be, by even the then contemporaneous standards, utterly immoral and inhumane enslavement of Africans.

Not all racism can be boiled down to slavery, nor can the specifics of the African experience be boiled down to "people are generally racist". There is a specific context and that context is transatlantic.

Hispanics, in the UK at least, have nothing to do with slavery and the UK attitude to Hispanics is very different to, for example, the American with entirely different backgrounds to it. In America, it's aimed almost entirely at south Americans and does not apply to European Portuguese and Spanish.

Nevertheless we have a bunch of people in the UK who have hatred and contempt for Spanish, Portuguese, particularly from the south, and also to South Americans (by extension), and for some evidently, a weird thing about the Falklands conflict.

I digress, the point is you evidently never grasped the basic point to begin with.

Perhaps the drugs will ware off, I suggest a long lie down in a darkened room until they do.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jul 14 18:24:41
Yes seb, I think I am better than you are staying sober and figure what we should and shouldn't are about. I have not capitulated my brain, I am not married to the narrative the way that you and wife are.

If I drink booze I am far less belligerent. I am one of those people.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jul 14 18:31:48
I pretty much deconstructed your cynical reading of history in the original thread and provided a far better explanation. Once you start talking about drugs, you may as well talk about Chihuahuas. It's GG.
Habebe
Member
Tue Jul 14 18:44:03
"In America, it's aimed almost entirely at south Americans and does not apply to European Portuguese and Spanish."

Well, I'm gonna guess your grouping Mexicans in with " South Americans"

And by your explanation doesn't that sound more like classism than racism? The reason many people in the US dislike Mexicans is because they perceive them to be taking jobs for lesser wages, sending the money put od the country and enjoying US assistance while contributing less to.the the US (sending the money home)

Now, there is some truth to some of those things, and a lot of misconceptions. But regardless, its more about them beimg poor than being Hispanic, as you pointed out.

Now Im the unicorn that likes Trump and am pro immigration.
Seb
Member
Tue Jul 14 18:47:08
Habebe:

The two are often conflated, it's true. But when you associate an entire race with being poor scroungers it amounts to pretty much the same thing.

And yes, quite right, Mexicans are not South American, I should have said Latin Americans.

Seb
Member
Tue Jul 14 18:49:49
Nim:

God help you if this incoherent rot is from a sober mind.

The only thing you've deconstructed is your capability for rational thought.
Pillz
Member
Tue Jul 14 19:38:51
Seb also can not read.

You two are perfect together.
Forwyn
Member
Tue Jul 14 22:19:02
"Just looked it up, considerably more than two tweets."

The post referenced two text messages, and two images.

"at 12, you would be prosecuted in the UK for theft or assault"

The fact that you think this "offense" is equivalent to theft or assault really illustrates your cuckery.

"Otherwise he's going to do it again, and again. What age do we draw the line? 18?"

How about never? Mean words without threat on the internet went unpunished for two decades. Did we see a drastic improvement on society when we started caging people for it?

His age, again, just illustrates your cuckery: that you fully support agents of the state handcuffing a prepubescent boy for saying mean things online.
Forwyn
Member
Tue Jul 14 22:22:21
"Yes, I often do not care about me, me wife, and my infant being physically attacked by a drunk man who takes exception to their race."

"Yes, I often do not care about me, me wife, and my infant being physically attacked by a drunk man"

I can see how the second statement is more acceptable than the first

rofl
Dakyron
Member
Tue Jul 14 23:41:46
"His age, again, just illustrates your cuckery: that you fully support agents of the state handcuffing a prepubescent boy for saying mean things online. "

To a wealthy, famous adult man. Theoretically, someone who probably hears worse at every match and should have thick enough skin and a healthy enough bank account to just let the shit go.
sam adams
Member
Wed Jul 15 00:26:28
"Thinking is fine. Harassment is not."

This is true. But you want to make the punishment worse based on what the 12 year old thought. Else youldnt have typed this: "and racism is an aggravating factor."
Seb
Member
Wed Jul 15 01:38:39
Forwyn:

Yes, harassment is an offence, like theft or assault. I know you don't think it should be, but there is.

"I'm going to visit your house dressed as a ghost" followed by a picture of the KKK *is* a threat. The intended message is "I'm going to come to your house and lynch you". Arguing that because the sender is 12 doesn't mitigate the effect: the recipient didn't know that. Arguing it was on the internet doesn't work: it was a direct message, you can see in the screen shot.

His age is immaterial from a legal perspective.

If your argument is be shouldn't be criminally culpable because of his age, that's an entirely different argument.

When should criminal culpability start? Never, you say.

Ok, all everyone should be free to send messages threatening to lynch people. So, if I'm trying to fix a match, I should be able to send a message saying "score any goals and I'll come around your house and install ventilation" followed by a machine gun, that's not a crime, or at least, that can't be taken as evidence of the crime because there's now a test as to whether I'm "serious" or just "being mean on the internet"?

And why is being "mean on the internet" a mitigating factor for things that done on paper a crime?

The police don't handcuff minors.

Forwyn:

If he didn't care about the race, he very likely wouldn't have been attacking us and threatening us. Glad you think a grown man wanting to inflict violence on a months old infant is funny. Class character there.

Dakyron:
What's his bank account got to do with it? Indeed, when someone writes to a professional sportsman threatening to attack him if he scores goals, he has to take that more seriously. Could be match fixing by organised crime.

How exactly then do you want the law to be: it's a crime to harass people, unless the harasser is under 16 and it's done on the internet, in which case it isn't a crime.

That's crazy. The law is to protect people from harassment, why should we give under 16s the right to inflict harassment on people? If harassment is something we think people should just live with, why would we hold adult perpetrators liable for it?

And when the harassment takes the form b of a direct threat of violence, then at what point can you criminalise extortion? Only when money is actually exchanged? What if the payoff is indirect, like match fixing? You can send anonymous threats to a sportsman to take a dive, place a large bet, kaching, the perfect crime.

Sam:

Is murder a thought crime, as the distinguishing feature from homicide is what the individual thought for the same action? There are loads of crimes that depend on the intent of the individual.

You are stretching the definition on thought crime, where the whole point is that there is no action in the public realm that affects another person. Here, there is an action in the public realm that affects another person.

It's perfectly reasonable for racism to be an agravating factor. It needs to be evidenced, and in this case easy to do.



Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Jul 15 06:33:14
” Not all racism can be boiled down to slavery”

He says this, but then casually uses cringy acronyms like BAME, as if the thing they have in common is at all relevant. Incoherent? Confused? You want to cling on to these things ans I want to unlearn them. You want it to go hide I want to undo it.

You may not understand it, but your new religion makes people into hysterical and depressed victims. It teaches people that minorities can not succeed unless they have optimal conditions. It is as disgusting as it is counter productive. That every racist slur, ever idiot on the internet and ultimately, every adversity is the result of some grand design. Been there, done that, seen it from a distance, it is a depressing state. The moment you wake up is the moment things ”magically” start going your way.

Nothing of value, is a charitable understatement.
Seb
Member
Wed Jul 15 06:54:34
Nim:

"BAME" - convenience. The thing they have in common is being discriminated against, all though details and nature will vary.

"but your new religion"

Yes, racism is not a real tangible phenomenon, it's as real as imaginary sky daddy.
Seb
Member
Wed Jul 15 06:55:53
"teaches people that minorities can not succeed unless they have optimal conditions"

No, it doesn't.

You are utterly delusional and incapable of nuance.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Jul 15 07:51:50
Seb
Yes conveniance, the antithesis to nuance and understanding complex issues. You keep arguing the case against you.

Is this the alternate reality where a religion must include a god? Many religions claim tangible things with or without the involvement of a deity.

This is working out great for you.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Jul 15 08:10:00
Here is a tip, you seem to be a fast typer, but a shallow thinker. Type slower, think more. Are you here to defend you ego, or (according to yourself) make the world a better place for minorities? Then maybe listen to more minorities.

Have you listened to any of the people I gave you? Nope. Staying ignorant is a choice for you.
Pillz
Member
Wed Jul 15 08:33:39
Seb is just employing the classic argument that you can't listen to uncle Tom's, because they're racists too
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Jul 15 08:51:56
Shut up pillz, you are part of the problem. Just hours ago you were wondering if "being Iranian or Swedish" was the problem with me not understanding your retarded ramblings. Here is the answer, it's because I am not a retard. Facts and chronology does not matter to you, everything people say make you feel vindicated and everyone else is "crying" and "scared". There are 3 types of people. Intelligent people who are scared, people who lie about not being scared and idiots who lack the mental ability to realize they need to be scared. That is a general observation. The people who lie, think fear makes them homosexuals.

You obviously do not understand getting things right for the wrong reasons (luck), and getting things wrong for the right reasons (bad data). It applies to corona and racism.

Maybe if retards like you were not using thinly veiled racism every time your little brains ground to a halt, then maybe the sebs wouldn't have so many dots to connect. You are objectively worse than seb in every way on the topic of racism. Just to make it clear, if someone held a gun to my head I would pick seb. His heart is at least in the right place, you are scum, trash, human garbage. Am I clear?
Seb
Member
Wed Jul 15 09:36:20
Nim:
Using the term BAME doesn't preclude nuance in the specifics. Everything is binary with you.

Shallow is exactly what I'm accusing you of being in your analysis. Glib in fact.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Jul 15 10:03:28
It is reductionist in the most obscene way.

Accusing me, a first gen. immigrant who has been thinking and living the life you think you understand because you married someone, of being glib. Well you can of course say that, but it does not serve the goal you so loudly say you want to achieve.

How many of the people I gave you, have you listened to? Where is the nuance in what you are saying? Tell me the ways in which the modern anti-racism movement gets things wrong and goes too far. Show me the nuance in your understanding.
TJ
Member
Wed Jul 15 10:26:16
Nim:

It is a pleasure to experience your content of character.
Seb
Member
Wed Jul 15 10:48:27
Nim:

I did not say that I understood your life. You said I had no experience of racism, and therefore should defer to you, to the point of setting aside other ethnic minorities accounts of racism because they had "drawn the wrong conclusions" from their experiences.

Your experiences are valid. They do not and cannot invalidate others.

It is that simple.
Pillz
Member
Wed Jul 15 10:50:52
I have no idea what my previous statement has to do with Seb's delusions. You are clearly just stupid.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Jul 15 11:11:20
Seb
You are a liar, I can't excuse what you are doing with poor comprehension. Plenty of people followed the last thread, and I have said it here again.

You are a liar. It is that simple.

Your theory is that everyones conclusion is equally valid? That would destroy your own position. So obviously some people are more correct than others, even you believe this. Asserting that, does not invalidates experiences, liar.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Jul 15 11:12:42
I appreciate that TJ.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Jul 15 11:40:48
Pillz
You (and others) regularly use racial slurs, explicit and implicit racism thrown into whatever it is you are saying. I personally, could not give a shit, it just flags you as of inferior mental capacity. It similar same thing when people ask "are you micro dosing?", "go hug you rat dog". Inferior people who have reached their wits ends. Though at least those things says _something_ about behavior. Micro dosing does affect behavior (in a positive way) and owning a small dog clearly indicates you have not invested your self-worth into the size of your dog. So, it just does not say what those people think it does. Your version is clearly the worst.

You may not give a shit, but you go out of your way to trigger people, you think showing any degree of concern for peoples emotions as a sign of weakness. Those things carry a cost, as small as your contribution may be, it is none the less a small nudge of the pendulum.

So, given all the shit that you say, to come and make that comment (as if you are this nuanced and balanced person and not a piece of shit who has taken every opportunity to behave like a racist ass hole) it's a bit rich, as they say.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Jul 15 11:42:39
*context* the context in which you do it is quite important. Almost exclusively in the most negative way.
sam adams
Member
Wed Jul 15 12:44:54
"there is an action in the public realm that affects another person."

No physical damage was done and its a 12 year old.
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