Utopia Talk / Politics / British people are f*cking idiots

Rugian Member	Thu Jun 04 10:30:11 So the UK has spent the last several months imposing draconian social distancing restrictions on its citizens, to the point where many people cant see their loved ones and some couples are banned from having sex. Even the most minor infractions against the rules have been severely punished. Tens of thousands of fines have been handed out. Police have received hundreds of thousands of calls from people snitching on their neighbors for breaking social distancing. Dominic Cummings got absolutely destroyed by the (Remoaner) media for the "crime" of committing a technical violation of the lockdown in order to look after his four year old son. Yet, when it comes to holding mass protests over one death, *in another country* over 4,000 miles away, all of sudden breaking social distancing is not only permitted, but actively encouraged. http://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-52907101 Absolute fucking hypocrisy. Theres no other way to describe it. Social distancing is of paramount importance, until a political issue comes along that leftists care about, and then it doesnt matter at all. H y p o c r i t e s.
Wrath of Orion Member	Thu Jun 04 10:33:51 This is an ideal situation for someone like Rugian. He can manufacture some outrage over the social distancing requirements, but if people were complaining about how those requirements prevented them from protesting, he could manufacture some outrage instead. It's really a win-win for people like him.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 04 10:36:22 Yeah, it's almost like supporting draconian lockdown policies in the first place was a lose-lose situation. Dont blame us freedom lovers for capitalizing on the other side's own-goal.
Wrath of Orion Member	Thu Jun 04 10:42:53 Yeah, it's almost like you seek out situations that allow you to manufacture some outrage and post about how "enraged" it makes you. Odd that.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 04 10:46:47 Uh, no. It's pretty obvious that these protests are only being positively received because it's over an issue that he political left cares about. Contrast that with a situation in which, say, people were breaking lockdown to protest not being able to attend church, and they'd be absolutely villified. Interesting how you are so willing to defend the blatant hypocrisy here though.
The Children Member	Thu Jun 04 10:47:27 yea and if they were protestin china, rugiot wuld be cheerin and high fivin. the reality ur SOUR is coz they r protestin against u american cucks.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 04 11:01:20 "It's kind of amazing. For weeks we have been arguing about the minute details of viral transmission. Can you be outside? How often can you be outside? Can you be with other people? How many? And how much distance should you keep from each other? Then masses of people gather in cities across the world for a protest and the authorities do nothing. It just goes ahead." http://www...ca-s-riots-could-be-contagious
Seb Member	Thu Jun 04 11:05:37 Rugian: It's a touch point issue here. Although nothing like the scale, there have been numerous issues of black people dying in custody and examples of police racial discrimination. There was several examples during lockdown of police using disproportionate force. Hilarious though that you buy Cummings bollocks about childcare (he didn't need any in the end, had family in London, the people who were not displaying symptoms could have legally traveled to him, the net result was his wife and daughter ended up in a hospital with Corona symptoms 250 miles from London, helping spread the disease, the very thing the law set out to prevent); he very clearly violated the law with his trip to Barnard's Castle (which in delightful serendipity is Durham slang for "unbelievable, clearly false story") - presumably you believe the story that he went on an hour long round trip with his 4 year old and wife in the back to "test his eyesight" because he was worried he couldn't drive. Also he was roundly criticised in all the press, including the daily mail, telegraph and spectator. Hardly "remoaner". Christ what a credulous fuckwit you are.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 04 11:25:42 Seb Interesting how you brought up a completely different issue here. I guess that's because black British (or any British, for that matter) have literally no reason to fear being killed by cops. This issue literally doesnt apply to Great Britain. Nevertheless, I did check the custody thing, and it looks like the number of black British prisoners dying is a whopping...1.3 per year. Obviously any number greater than zero is not ideal, but is this really worth breaking your otherwise strict quarantine for? (By the way, the number of white British who die in custody per year is 14...who gives a shit about those people though). Trying to deny that the Dominic Cummings media coverage was anything short of a complete hit job is laughable. The press saw an opportunity to take down the chief architect of Brexit and they took it with glee. And yes, the rightwing press joined in as well, because Covid has turned the lot of them into pearl-clutching nanny staters who think anything short of a Chinese-style lockdown is a failure of the highest order. Piers Morgan hates Boris now for Pete's sake. You fascist simpleton.
Habebe Member	Thu Jun 04 11:28:58 Seb, I think the point with Cummings is that like a agoyhe guy gets demonized for breaking SD. Then its cool for thousands of sjw's to closely gather what now is looking less and less like a racial incident ( they apparently were co workers)
FREAK NATION Member	Thu Jun 04 11:33:58 The irony is that Covid-19 patients say "I can't breath", too.
sam adams Member	Thu Jun 04 12:15:43 The hypocrisy is hilariously stupid. I am now convinced that the average human is too stupid for unlimitted democracy, and that the more selective middle class landowner voter used by the romans, some greeks, and the first half of the US is preferable.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 04 12:19:25 Rugian: People dying in custody is completely different from... Floyd who... died in custody? There's a list of people who have died by the police (see mark Duggan). It's true they have much less reason to fear death at the hands of the police than in the US. That's because our police are actually civilian rather than operating as a paramilitary group. However they do still have a poor record in terms of harassing and discrimination etc. Obviously the timing is terrible and they will spread the disease. But the govt had effectively (through poor communications and letting Cummings off the hook) already ended lockdown. You can see plenty of pictures of crowded beaches and parks. Should police be deployed to try and lock up crowds of tens of thousands of people protesting police discrimination, after the govt had already created a set of guidelines and rules so complex the police have already said they can't possibly enforce them, and have not enforced it on the crowds of people in Parks and beaches? I'm sure that would be a splendid idea demonstrating the police are even handed. As for Cummings: Ferguson broke lockdown after he was confirmed immune. Resigned. A bunch of other senior figures: asked to resign. Both demonised in the right wing press. Cummings, Borises chief of staff, flagrantly breaks the rule, writes a completely false account of his time with Corona virus in "lockdown in London" in the spectator, then gets found to have been lying, have actually been in Durham breaking the lockdown rules. What happens? Does he get the fines that other people have got? Does he get fired or asked to resign like others? No. Boris instead re-writes the rules. They even changed the slogan from "stay home" to "be alert" the same weekend the journalists started asking questions. Cummings isn't being demonised. It's a clear case of double standards, which he is rightly being hounded over. The idea that the daily mail and telegraph, but of which have been campaigning against the EU longer than Cummings, is going after Cummings to punish him for brexit is laughable. Habebe: You haven't been paying attention I'm affraid. Several officials were forced to step down for lockdown beaches, with harsh treatment in the press; and the govt had substantially eased the rules and the police said they were no longer enforcing lockdown, with huge crowds gathering at beaches and parks with minimal interference a week before the BLM protests.
sam adams Member	Thu Jun 04 12:24:00 "British people are f*cking idiots" True. No wonder they lost their empire.
Paramount Member	Thu Jun 04 13:22:51 I wonder if the Hong Kongers who decides to move to Britain if they are going to be disappointed or not. They might experience less freedom and more racism there.
hood Member	Thu Jun 04 13:33:39 Just to properly translate the basic sentiment rugian is expressing: "Protesting the abuse of power in an illegal manner that results in a death is the same as protesting the legal use of power to prevent death." Note how identical those are. Killing people = not killing people. Illegal abuse of power = legal use of power. They're the exact fucking same, which makes having nuanced opinions hypocritical.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 04 13:35:57 Rugian has turned into hot rod.
Wrath of Orion Member	Thu Jun 04 14:54:10 Pointing out that you're an idiot who seeks out opportunities to maximize your manufactured rage doesn't equate to supporting or defending anything. Derp.
Wrath of Orion Member	Thu Jun 04 14:55:18 "Rugian has turned into hot rod." I wouldn't go that far, but his apparent mental stability and ability to think logically and rationally have definitely degraded over the last few years.
Pillz Member	Thu Jun 04 15:58:42 Liberals can't reconcile their need to socially distance with their need to loot. Imagine that.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 04 16:26:28 WoO: I was thinking the obsessive partisan hack-iness. To be fair, Hot Rod for progressively worse and I stoped really paying much attention to him in latter years; but yes he has better rationalisation than hot rod, but what I meant was that like hot rod it's now almost entirely devoted to preserving the dissonance with reality.
kargen Member	Thu Jun 04 18:05:22 "there have been numerous issues of black people dying in custody" How many? And how do those numbers compare across other demographics? Turn out in the US the numbers are really minuscule.
Seb Member	Fri Jun 05 01:48:00 Kargen: Ah Yes, nothing to worry about with all these black people being killed in the US like George Floyd, the numbers are miniscule... I mean you've got so much footage now of police clearly discriminating against African Americans, I don't think your attempt to prove with statistics that it isn't really happening are going to matter much. Here's the thing about free societies, nobody gets to tell protestors what it's ok, and not on to protest about.
kargen Member	Fri Jun 05 03:06:42 Two unarmed where the police were not convicted (now three). So considering our population yea minuscule. Still to many but the point remains. Now answer the question. You claimed "there have been numerous issues of black people dying in custody and examples of police racial discrimination." You made the claim now back it up with numbers. You said numerous. Numerous means you have a number. So what is it? No straw man arguments or distractions. What is your number?
kargen Member	Fri Jun 05 03:13:38 Ya know what? Not even three. The two was 2019. This is 2020.
Seb Member	Fri Jun 05 03:37:31 Kargen: Get bent, I'm under no obligation to account to you of BAME community in the UK are justified. Who do you think you are? A A Parliamentary sub committee? You can JFGI. Part of the problem you have Kargen, is that your militarised society tolerates a level of police violence across the board that's frankly astonishing to the rest of the developed world. For us, a single police killing is a national front page event. For you, it's a statistic not worthy of attention. Numerous means "there are many examples", it does not mean I have a set of statistics to hand; and as I've pointed out, you don't get to decide
Seb Member	Fri Jun 05 03:38:12 in a free society what issues warrant a peaceful protest.
kargen Member	Fri Jun 05 04:07:38 Okay I will just assume you were spouting nonsense. You made a claim. I asked you provide support for that claim. You seem to be unable or worse unwilling to support your claim. All your rhetoric is pure bullshit. Every suspected unjust police killing in the US makes national news. For you to suggest otherwise is pure ignorance. "many examples" So ballpark it. Was two in the US last year. That is two to many but hardly "many." You don't even have to provide specific numbers. Just let me know what you think "many" is and I can check the numbers. I'm not deciding a damn thing. I asked you to back your claim. Either you can or you cannot. If you cannot then your claim is easily dismissed as unsubstantiated opinion and not worth dwelling on. So numbers? Or are you just blowing shit out your ass?
Seb Member	Fri Jun 05 05:18:58 Kargen: You can assume what you like, I'm not stopping you. "I can check the numbers." You can check the numbers without me by simply going to google. There are plenty that are tracking it. I'm really not sure why it is you think I need to be justifying these protests in the UK to you. It's not like whether they are valid or not is something for you to arbitrate. The accusation Rugian made is that is hypocritical for these protests to be tolerated given the previous weeks protests, and that there is no basis for them as Floyd was killed in the US. It is simple enough to point out that actually, deaths in police custody and police racism and discrimination are a live issue here and have been for some time (google, for example, Steven Lawrence and "institutional racism"); and that the enforcement of lockdown requirements had been substantially abandoned a week previous to the protests in the UK, and indeed in the days before the parks and beaches have been full of people. Quite why you think it is necessary to start discussing the precise number of cases of deaths in custody is beyond me: it wouldn't "prove" anything. From my point of view, it is not necessary for my point or worthwhile to engage in. You are welcome to believe that the BAME community in the UK are unjustified in their protests - people believe silly thing all the time.
Seb Member	Fri Jun 05 05:21:14 But if you are really interested (not that the number or a statistical analysis is really relevant) http://lmgtfy.com/?q=bame+deaths+in+police+custody+uk
Seb Member	Fri Jun 05 05:28:28 *given the previous weeks enforcement activities for lockdown.
kargen Member	Fri Jun 05 05:54:09 "It's a touch point issue here. Although nothing like the scale, there have been numerous issues of black people dying in custody and examples of police racial discrimination." I am wondering what numbers you think justify this statement. In particular "nothing like the scale". What scale and what numbers? "t is simple enough to point out that actually, deaths in police custody and police racism and discrimination are a live issue here and have been for some time" Not based on actual numbers. Based on left rhetoric sure I agree. Based on the pure facts no. Thus my questioning your numbers. And according to the numbers in the link you provided 10% of deaths are minority while they make up 14% of the population. The numbers you refuse to provide do not support your rhetoric. As the catalyst for this was in the USA let us play with USA numbers. The truth there is in 2019 there were two unarmed African Americans killed by police officers that were not charged. Two. We don't know the circumstances but that is two to many. More than 40 people were shot and ten died in Chicago the weekend George Floyd died. If you can not name at least one of those victims really you have nothing. You are protesting a drip within a flood.
Seb Member	Fri Jun 05 07:16:43 I don't really care to argue with you over the point. The fact you seem to think that it's only a problem if police aren't charged is proof enough of your bad faith. It's a qualification you've introduced with the obvious attempt to minimise the problem. In these riots there is footage of police e.g. forcing a stick into peoples hands then beating them, so frankly I'm not even convinced "armed" is a fact I'd excluded. The behaviour of your police is clearly atrocious.
Forwyn Member	Fri Jun 05 08:21:14 Can you be surprised? You even had retards here supporting clearly bad shootings like Daniel Shaver, Andrew Finch, and John Crawford III. When BLM first started, it spawned the entire Blue Lives Matter counterculture that revolves solely around sucking cop dick, no matter how bad they are.
Forwyn Member	Fri Jun 05 08:31:15 You have mega-powerful cop unions that are allowed to openly endorse political candidates, Washington funnels weapons and training through both military surplus and joint operations programs, former cops with that extra training prowl the nation shilling their paramilitary programs and consulting for seven figures a year, every Academy in the US shows their new recruits the Kyle Dinkheller video to get them amped up and think they're always in mortal danger (instead of ranking behind fifteen other more dangerous jobs), deputies can snatch your rent money on the side of the road with no accusation of a crime, and all of it covered under the umbrella of a Supreme Court case that invented the standard of Qualified Immunity out of thin air.
Seb Member	Fri Jun 05 08:32:50 I have a friend living in a Boston suburb, who showed me this fantastic thing the police there have going where Internal affairs and SWAT are outsourced to a private company run/owned by part time police, not then subject to public records acts etc. Perfect for graft really: outsource key oversight jobs to your mates, with little competition, including anti-corruption. You can definitely trust them to investigate their customers!
Seb Member	Fri Jun 05 08:35:28 Forwyn: Qualified immunity is just terrible, not just in itself but because you shouldn't need to use a civil case to pursue the malfeasance in public office. The only reason you'd need to sue the police is because they aren't capable of policing themselved when they commit obvious crimes.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Fri Jun 05 12:46:40 http://www...XPLK0zXlvV0LOk2CfQQ-CFlmdybdU4
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Fri Jun 05 12:50:34 http://www...19-tests-voided-decision-send/
Rugian Member	Fri Jun 05 14:14:49 Seb Everything kargen has said is correct. In England and Wales, less than two black men have died in police custody per year over the last decade. Obviously we would want that number to be zero, but this is such a minuscule number that it's really not worth having a national meltdown over even in normal times, much less when you're facing a pandemic that you (wrongly) consider to be an existential threat. From the looks of it, British blacks do suffer a disproportionate amount in encounters with police when compared to their white counterparts. But twice of virtually nothing is still virtually nothing. The people who are protesting this in your country are literally just looking for something to be angry about. And yes, you can for sure send the police after them. If UK cops can break into people's apartments because they received a report that violations of social distancing were being committed, they can absolutely intervene in terms of stopping protests which are way more likely to result in the spread of disease. It's also worth pointing out that the US figures for deaths of blacks at the hands of police, while certainly higher than the UK's, are also minuscule in the grand scheme of things. As a black man, you are far, far, far more likely to be killed by a fellow black man than by a cop of any color. The attention that police shootings of black men get are a classic example of disproportionate coverage bias. Re Cummings. Unlike Ferguson hes not an epidemiologist, and Europe has plenty of examples of senior government officials breaking their own lockdown guidelines. The fault is with the lockdowns themselves, as they are so oppressively draconian that no one could hope to follow them indefinitely. And dont even try to argue that the Cummings story killed the lockdown. As you yourself note, people were already starting to violate it before that story hit. And really, as much as I appreciate Cummings' role in bringing Brexit home, I doubt the average Brit sits around all day and based their lives on WWDD. In short, either coronavirus is such a deadly disease that you need to keep lockdowns in place, or its harmless enough to allow for protests over an issue which is largely irrelevant to your country. But it cant be both.
Rugian Member	Fri Jun 05 14:16:26 And I'd rather be Hot Rod on his worst day than an authoritarian boot licker like you. Maybe he spent too much time watching Fox News in his later years, but st least he was a believer in the old traditions of English liberalism that the UK has now completely abandoned.
Seb Member	Fri Jun 05 16:06:26 Rugian: Firstly, when you say kargen is correct, is that an admission that you were wrong when you said that: "I guess that's because black British (or any British, for that matter) have literally no reason to fear being killed by cops. This issue literally doesnt apply to Great Britain." Because it sounds like you do accept that black people are disproportionally killed in police custody, and it does in fact happen in the UK. Secondly, who are you to decide whether to deaths in custody a year is significant enough to warrant what is actually fairly small protests? Since when did civil protest require approval from random fuckwits in the US? Further, deaths from police in the UK are incredibly low to the US, but that's a relative thing. You round down 2 deaths a year to be zero, largely because your level of deaths is so high that what happened last year is forgotten, overtaken by new effects; whereas here those deaths are still considered infamous because they were not resolved. You say 2 deaths a year, that's nothing. But in the UK context, that's not two deaths a year, that's 20 people. The fact it is spaced over a decade isn't a dilution. That's a body count equivalent to a terrorist attack. But it's not just deaths: as I said, the whole UK policing system isn't remotely as lethal as the US, and restricting yourself to that measure misses the broader context of discrimination that BAME experience, which the deaths in custody is just one aspect. For example the recent cuffing and arrest of a black paramedic in London on no grounds that went viral recently, or the black doctor tased for no good reason at a petrol pump (for lockdown violation I think), and countless smaller examples of harassment and racial profiling. So yes, the global outrage that the US police behaviour (which includes deliberately attacking international journalists, a hallmark behaviour of failed states and autocratic regimes) resonates with similar issues that exist here and of course they are going to capitalise on the widespread revulsion at the US police behaviour by drawing attention to domestic parallels. As for the charge of hypocrisy that these protests were not dispersed, well, as I've said, neither were gatherings in Parks and beaches that weekend. "If UK cops can break into people's apartments because they received a report that violations of social distancing were being committed," They cannot. "Unlike Ferguson hes not an epidemiologist" So? He's the most powerful figure in government. He sat in on all the meetings of Sage. He took the lockdown policy through cabinet, by his own admission he was instrumental in it. He was instrumental in drafting and approving the guidelines and getting the law approved. And unlike Ferguson, who was visited by his lover (technically then Ferguson did not break the rules, his lover did,as she was the one who left her home without good reason), Ferguson had self isolated for two weeks after the end of symptoms having confirmed he had Corona virus. So he was immune and non-contageous. From a medical standpoint, he was immune and his lover posed no risk to him, nor he to his lover (though his lover could have been infectious for other reasons and exposed people on her journey there and back). Cummings believed his wife to be ill, believed himself likely to fall ill, returned to work potentially infecting the top echelons of govt during a national crisis, then went on a 250 mile jaunt, ended up putting his potentially contagious family into a hospital, which would have caused medical staff to self isolate both spreading the disease and ubdermining health capacity. But the most important thing is that as a senior government figure: he broke government guidelines and he broke the law. In every way Ferguson's failures were much less severe both in terms of risk and in terms of undermining trust in govt. What is more the polls show it. Trust in govt collapsed after the story broke. "One rule for you, another rule for us" The UK lockdown is actually lax compared to the rest of Europe, which is why the UK now has more daily deaths than the rest of the EU put together, why they are now exiting lockdown and restarting their economies and international travel; and why the UK is not. And as I said, key to economic recovery is confidence. The public will not rush out and engage in pre-Covid behaviours if they don't believe the govt is on top of the crisis. And sure enough, govts attempts to get the school's back to operation are failing because teachers, councils and patents in significant numbers do not believe the govt has a grip and no longer believe the govt assurance as they have just seen the govt allow Cummings to make the most ridiculous, transparent lie, and then rewrite the rules to ensure he gets off Scott free. The problem is manifestly not the lock down, it's the incompetence and cynicism of govt and their cheerleaders such as yourself. And thanks
Seb Member	Fri Jun 05 16:08:33 As for authoritarian bootlicker, you are the guy supporting a govt that unlawfully suspended parliament; and is now again seeking to disenfranchise a third of constituencies by making it impossible for them to vote in parliament. Cummings is an authoritarian. If you've read his blogs, you will know he thinks much of democracy is outmoded and what is needed is professional technocrats.
kargen Member	Fri Jun 05 20:37:45 "You round down 2 deaths a year to be zero, largely because your level of deaths is so high that what happened last year is forgotten, overtaken by new effects" Four deaths of unarmed blacks in custody in the United States in one year.
Wrath of Orion Member	Fri Jun 05 20:57:40 "The people who are protesting this in your country are literally just looking for something to be angry about." Weren't you just on about hypocrites? Oh wait, that's right, it was the OP in this thread. Funny that you are criticizing others for that since "looking for something to be angry about" is pretty much all you seem to do.
Seb Member	Sat Jun 06 02:09:58 Kargen: And how many of the others were armed like this fellow? http://www...-protesters-hand-philadelphia/
Seb Member	Sat Jun 06 02:15:01 And how many were armed because they were legally carrying a weapon but shot for no good reason, baring in mind we only recently saw armed white protestors force their way into government buildings, unchallenged by police? Basically kargen, if you want to have a "debste" on these parameters, you need to find yourself some school children to talk to.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Jun 06 04:32:44 This is bigger than having real systematic or otherwise discrimination of black people. Sweden has literally none of the history the US has or even the UK has. Yet BLM has been imported here and retarded swedish white kids were out holding signs ”blue lives don’t matter”. This is a country were, if the police have to draw weapons it can make the news. Swedish police are the examples you bring up as the opposite of a militarized and aggressive police force, that have almost been too ”pussified”. Yet the retards are out in force. Retardation is a viral phenomena that spreads via social media contact. It infects young and confused people who have a I-need-purpose sized hole in their souls. Imagine having that and beeing locked up for months. Smashing stuff and being angry is very cathartic. Punch a bag, notice the difference.
kargen Member	Sat Jun 06 04:56:25 The officer could have dropped his stick to grab the protesters arm to force it behind his back. He did not place the mans hand on the stick. And without seeing what happened leading up to that we don't know if excessive force was used or not. You obviously see another officer that was down and injured before the video started.
Seb Member	Sat Jun 06 05:28:36 Nim: Sweden was involved in the slave trade, it had a West Indian colony and by OECD stats one of the most segregated labour markets in Europe. Are you so sure they have nothing to complain about? In any case, why is this idiocy? I remember in 2006 I think, when I went to New York, there were signs everywhere about Darfur on the metro and streets and a protest march. Every other day I went to work on Whitehall there would be some group or another protesting some cause that the UK wasn't directly involved in. Why is this, objectively shocking, outburst of police violence in the US different?
Seb Member	Sat Jun 06 05:32:07 Kargen: http://www...ECAoQAQ&biw=360&bih=623&dpr=3# 10s-12s in, He walks up with the stick and drops it at the protestors hand, he then grabs the protestors hand and puts the protestors hand on it.
Seb Member	Sat Jun 06 05:33:01 You can see he tries to get the guy to hold it with his other hand first.
Seb Member	Sat Jun 06 05:37:13 And come on, we've seen that police shooting at journalists with TV cameras and international press signs. We've seen them steamroller a 70 year old man, and leave him with his head cracked and bleeding, marching right past. That tank at tianamen at least stopped for that student. So yeah, don't really give much weight to stats that rely on us police reporting anymore. The corruption in US policing is clearly endemic.
Seb Member	Sat Jun 06 05:38:10 We've seen police cars ramming crowds too.
Seb Member	Sat Jun 06 05:39:47 You know what this most reminds me of? The Royal Ulster Constabulary's approach to policing Nationalists in northern Ireland during the 60s and 70s.
Pillz Member	Sat Jun 06 05:43:33 Old man deserved it. And so did the press. Seb doesn't understand what the rule of law looks like, being so use to living in somalia
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Jun 06 06:00:25 Seb Yes. The extent of Swedish involvement both in trade and ”colonies” (lol) is practically zero especially as far as actualy black slaves in Sweden. I am much more worried about Swedens inability to deal with the shit they did and didn’t during WW2 than any connection to slavery. There is an important ”detail” that is often forgotten in this discussion. White europeans didn’t invent slavery, a quick glance in history will show this, but they were the ones who ended it. There was no abolisionist movement in for instance Saudi Arabia, it was white british people telling the saudi to cut that shit out. Which they finally did in 1965. Likewise ”racism” isn’t a white european phenomena, but in 2020 it seems whites are the most engaged in getting rid of it. To the extent that they make it up where it does not exist.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Jun 06 06:11:59 Seb ”In any case, why is this idiocy?” This can’t really be a valid question. To get aggressive and behave like hooligans towards the Swedish police who have very little in common with the policemen examplified in Floyds death, is idiotic. To culturally appropriate the unique history of slavery and slave ancestors of America to Sweden, is retarded.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Jun 06 06:20:32 In the USA something like 80-90% of black people have slave ancestry. Something of that magnitude, in sweden it is the reverse. Less than 1% have slave ancestry. The others are here because they were given refuge in Sweden by white Swedish people. Not that this matters for the manufactured narrative. The whole BLM thing stinks in Sweden, because the very fact that there are so many blacks in Sweden is predicated on the fact that these white Swedes indeed think blacks lives matter.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Jun 06 08:11:32 >>Why is this, objectively shocking, outburst of police violence in the US different?<< As a matter of principle, it isn't different. My algorithm for starting to care about retarded things is: A x B = how much I care. I think most people have the same "algorithm". A is how retarded it is and B is how damage this retardation is causing or costing. If you are protesting the US police outside the US embassy in Sweden. That is reasonable, I may even join you. If you are blaming Swedish police and trying to appropriate American history/culture so you feel viscerally connected to something taking place that isn't nor have ever been your reality, that is retarded. If you start agitating and throwing stuff at Swedish police, well now that is going full retard. All forms of stupid behavior are not created equal.
Seb Member	Sat Jun 06 08:18:47 Nim: Ah, but there was virtually no slavery in the British isles themselves either. The blacks in Britain didn't arrive en mass until the 1950s. The question of whether we invented slavery isn't really relevant. The point is we enslaved an entire race of people purely on the base of race, an in order to justify it we built an entire rationalisation system built around a construct of racial inferiority which ensures to this day. I believe I'm correct that Switzerland didn't have slavery either, but I do remember witnessing police in Geneva stop, physically shove and cufff the boyfriend of a colleague of my wifes who was black (he was actually very dark skinned Kurdish, but they didn't seem to care). Are you so sure that police discrimination doesn't happen in Sweden? I suspect given the workplace segregation stats it almost certainly does. I think you are drawing the boundary far too narrow to say that the only people who suffer discrimination are those that can claim direct descendants from slaves.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Jun 06 08:49:23 Seb Right and that is why I said "Sweden has literally none of the history the US has or _even_ the UK has." (with it extensive colonial and at times savage history). You have to go back to the "Viking" age and even then not a whole lot of Scandinavian were actual "vikings" only a fraction of the population engaged in this. I differentiate between the US and UK and Sweden and their histories in connection to slavery and colonialism. >>The question of whether we invented slavery isn't really relevant.<< We disagree. The history of slavery and abolitionist movement is quite relevant in 2020 when people are feeding a narrative that this a "white" problem. >>Are you so sure that police discrimination doesn't happen in Sweden?<< Not in a way or on a scale that makes it an issue where I feel justified to burn their cars and throw rocks at them no. >>I think you are drawing the boundary far too narrow to say that the only people who suffer discrimination are those that can claim direct descendants from slaves.<< I am saying you can't appropriate other peoples cultural history and suffering by literally overlaying your own reality with their grievance narrative (real or otherwise).
Seb Member	Sat Jun 06 08:54:00 The police in the UK are far more heavily regulated than in the US - there is far less the widespread culture of impunity that lets them get away with whatever they want. So the behaviours are lower key - but there is still racism. I had an exchange on twitter with an anonymous cop recently regarding the footage of the paramedic. I'll link to the footage here, and of course, it is small beer to the states but I'll come back to why I think it still inflames in a moment: http://met...ack-ambulance-driver-12779366/ In the video, the individual complies with the police completely. Note also the officer appear to break stop and search regulations whereby she needs to have a positive reason to search, but frames it in terms of "you haven't given me enough reason to..."; but that is by the by. Rather than ask him to adopt a position, or inform him "for safety reasons, I need to hold your hand while I undertake the search", she just grabs him. Now this is during the pandemic, she's not wearing a mask or gloves, so it's quite understandable he reacts by trying to pull his arm back. It's worth noting by the way, that if one member of the public did this to a member of the public, it would constitute common assault, and if you did it to a police officer, you could be charged with assaulting a police officer (granted, a very minor assault and unlikely to be prosecuted but that is by the by - the law makes this a crime and people know they are not supposed to do it). She immediately cuffs him. Now the exchange i had with the cop basically boiled down to "no, actually, this is how we search everyone, we always get them in an arm lock before frisking them because they might pull a knife or attack us suddenly". Firstly, I think that is not true, because I, when I was a student, was stopped and searched and they certainly didn't do that. It was like an airport search. But then I'm white, was wearing obviously middle class clothes, wondering around close to a university campus: and while I' might very well have been carrying drugs I'm also the profile for someone who would know their rights and kick up a lot of stink and paperwork. But leaving the liklihood that even the practice is probably different based on race and class, and just taking it on face value: if this is standard procedure and the police tend to target people based on race and class (because that's the profile of a criminal, even if they have to jerry-rig proxy identifiers instead because to actually use race is a no-no) - then you probably have a lot of law abiding ethnic minorities whose experience of the police is something that you or I nor most white middle class Europeans would ever tolerate in terms of state intrusion into our lives. Long and the short of it, for a number of reasons even in lovely civilised Europe, ethnic minorities, particularly lower income ethnic minorities, have a very different experience of the police. And even if that falls far short of the absolute horror we are seeing in the US right now with police without restraint casually blinding people, beating unarmed people, driving cars into crowds and shooting up international journalists - it all resonates with domestic issues which are ultimately the same issue which also - despite the different particulars of history - shares a common cause. White European culture from about the 17th century onwards systematically structured the world into racial groups and dehumanised people based on the colour of their skin in order to justify to themselves the appropriation of their wealth, lands and freedom. And we still haven't really got rid of all of that baggage from our society.
Seb Member	Sat Jun 06 09:01:00 Nim: Like I said, Sweden had a west indian colony that they used a slave trading hub and Sweden didn't abolish slavery until 1847 (though by Napoleon Sweden has ceased it's great power pretensions). In terms of abolition of the slave trade, Britain effectively imposed it on Sweden, and slavery itself was only abolished in 1847 in Sweden. The fact it was a bit player compared to the British and Portugese doesn't absolve it really. But in the end I don't think it matters much as I said previously.
Seb Member	Sat Jun 06 09:06:39 Also, lets be honest, were there actually police cars burned in Sweden? From what I see it appears to have been a genteel affair, with two people arrested after the police used pepper spray to break the protest up.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Jun 06 09:13:03 "racial inferiority which ensures to this day." This is probably the biggest disagreement we have. I look at UK and Sweden even the USA today and this is not my conclusion. There is virtually no room for open racism in any of these countries and at times we are so sensitive about the issue that lives have been ruined over the uttering of a "bad word". And I want to preempt it by saying, I do not believe differences in outcomes can be explained with "racism" or that it is good proxy to estimate anything useful without. That isn't the same as saying it does not exist or does not play any role in outcomes, but the idea I am going up against is that not only does it play a role, it is THE deciding factor in your life as an immigrant/black in Sweden/USA/UK. That it embodies the very soul of said nation and (white) people. I think it very much does not. I think these are the same tribes of "whites" that went to war and/or pressured other nations into _stopping_ slavery, apartheid and other forms of institutional crimes against humanity. The same people who sent in the national guard to force the states to abide by common human decency and the law. I start from a place that makes a charitable narration quite easy.
sam adams Member	Sat Jun 06 09:27:55 "White European culture from about the 17th century onwards systematically structured the world into racial groups and dehumanised people based on the colour of their skin in order to justify to themselves the appropriation of their wealth, lands and freedom." What an utterly cucked statement. All greater civilizations throughout history conquered their lesser neighbors.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Jun 06 09:41:37 "And we still haven't really got rid of all of that baggage from our society." And that is fine, I also do not think all of that baggage is gone. We had a discussion a while back about the way in which the US census categorizes people in psuedo-scientific categories. Which feeds racism in the culture, but it also feeds the federal give-my-oppressed-people-money industrial complex. Get rid of it and stop entertaining the myth that people believe in. I know neither the UK or Sweden does this. I have also said what I think about the war on drugs. We can trade stories and my story is that I have never been handled poorly by the police and I was arrested with a gaggle of my friends (all immigrants) for the actual crime of breaking and stealing. So there is that. Of course I have also heard the opposite from kids living in socioeconomically "challenged" areas that the cops suck and are horrible. Usually their records is far more impressive than mine. I am quite familiar with Swedish history on this, not because I am so well read, but because it so short. Slavery in Sweden was banned in the 1300's. Not outside of Sweden and so yes, Sweden was involved in trading slaves. This is all a matter of historical record. Far smaller scale than any of the big colonial powers. Yet, there are virtually no slave ancestors in Sweden, there was no civil war here over slavery. There was no segregation police in the south of Sweden, or anywhere in Sweden. The slaves that were brought to Sweden were status markers for the Swedish nobility and these "slaves" were free to do whatever they wanted and had a much better quality of life than 99% of the Swedish population. Read about Gustav Badin for instance. I am not very interested in judging these things in 2020, but obviously taking any slave for any reason is not what qualifies as decent human behavior. And despite the small hand Sweden has had in the trade and everyone was doing it, it was bad. It was bad and it has no relationship with black people living in Sweden in 2020. Not anymore than the fact that some of their own (black) ancestors were selling captives to the (white and arab) slave traders. Perspective, nuances and the different levels of hell. It is all lost in the "war".
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Jun 06 09:51:14 >>Also, lets be honest, were there actually police cars burned in Sweden?<< Long before this killing in the USA, swedish police cars, ambulances and fire fighters have been set on fire and pelted with rocks. Long before this killing the appropriation of african-american culture and "race" issues has been going on. See, the Swedish left has a love-hate relationship with the USA. They hate the capitalism and military adventurism, but they love the grievance narrative those things create and that are embedded in their history and culture. They have tried very hard (successfully) for decades to import it to Sweden.
Seb Member	Sat Jun 06 10:41:51 Nimatzo: "There is virtually no room for open racism in any of these countries" That's an incredibly narrow view of racism really isn't it? Because you can't say "no niggers allowed" means there's no seriously impactful racism?
Seb Member	Sat Jun 06 10:45:27 You are creating a straw man when you say that the only thing that matters is whether it is "is THE deciding factor". A major factor. Few things are uniformly the deciding factor in someone's lives. There were coloured MPs in 18th or 19th (I forget exactly when but you can look it up) century, even while the idea of racial inferiority was well accepted.
Seb Member	Sat Jun 06 10:50:06 Nim: "Long before this killing in the USA, swedish police cars, ambulances and fire fighters have been set on fire and pelted with rocks." Yes, but you appeared to be suggesting that BLM protestors here and now had appropriated this issue in the States to justify burning cars. And it sounds like actually they aren't, and what you are doing is linking previous protests to these protests through some gestalt entity, the "Left" and using their behaviour then to impugne the behaviour now, and your assessment they lack sound motive now to impugne their motive then, when there were likely substantially different crowds. Sure there are some people who just like to protest about anything and some of those who like to do so violently. They tend to turn out for everything. But they aren't really representative of any real faction or movement.
Seb Member	Sat Jun 06 10:52:08 I mean you are basically telling black people in Sweden that any racism they experience isn't sufficient grounds to protest. That's not really how free societies work, and challenging such indifference is exactly the point of protest. I think you are being a bit glib frankly.
Paramount Member	Sat Jun 06 11:22:45 ”Long before this killing in the USA, swedish police cars, ambulances and fire fighters have been set on fire and pelted with rocks. ” For other things than politics. The youths and the kids that attacks the police are gang members and their hang arounds. Kids from segregated suburban areas. And they attack the police not because they are leftists but because they feel that the police are harrassing them, or because the police are disturbing their drug activitities and business, or because a friend of them has been detained. ”the Swedish left [..] love the grievance narrative those things create [...] They have tried very hard (successfully) for decades to import it to Sweden” It sounds like you have read Mats Skogkär’s tweet, and... you are an idiot.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Jun 06 11:35:37 >>That's an incredibly narrow view of racism really isn't it?<< I assure you I have a full spectrum view of racism. The operative word being _open_ racism. >>You are creating a straw man when you say that the only thing that matters is whether it is "is THE deciding factor".<< No, you added the _only_ thing that matters. Many things matter about what is going on. I believe one of things that does matter is this alleged strawman. Because there are people out there at the grass roots levels and upper political levels of this grievance movement that are expressing and conveying exactly those ideas. Obviously if what they were saying is true and we are all being oppressed by white people all the time, I would find that very important to be energized about. Right? From my POV though, this narrative is so far from the truth, that it might as well be another planet. To the extent that it is true it is exaggerated, once again to a level where this is another reality entirely. >>A major factor. Few things are uniformly the deciding factor in someone's lives.<< I can be, it depends on a bunch of other things, like time and geographic location. My point is that of all the places in the world, Sweden, UK nor the USA stand out on the issue of racism. So when people are using the kind of language and ideological framework which you claims is a "strawman" it comes off as off the deep end. We are apparently looking at the same thing and one is seeing a racist hellhole (there is no other way to describe it) and the other is seeing, one of the greatest place on earth. This isn't an easy gap to bridge and if you do not see these extremes (and how much more the fringes have gained influence in the past years) in the debates at large, you are not paying attention. >>I mean you are basically telling black people in Sweden that any racism they experience isn't sufficient grounds to protest.<< You know at first I thought I would need to write a long rebuttal to this, but no. Yes seb, I am saying to black people in sweden that the racism they experiences in Sweden does not give them the right to appropriate african-american grievances which is only relevant to their time and place in history to Sweden, (hole sentence in one breath) and to use this as grounds to protest against racism in Sweden. I believe I called it "retarded". >>That's not really how free societies work<< This is exactly how free societies work. People do things, others think it is retarded and then they think those guys are retarded etc and so on ad infinitum. What does what you wrote even mean? You are talking as if I am against their right to protest? I think you are exaggerating. And this isn't me being glib about you exaggerating. This is the quintessence of most disagreements these days in free societies, I think you care too much, I think you care too little about X issue.
Paramount Member	Sat Jun 06 11:45:55 ” In the USA something like 80-90% of black people have slave ancestry. Something of that magnitude, in sweden it is the reverse. Less than 1% have slave ancestry. The others are here because they were given refuge in Sweden by white Swedish people. Not that this matters for the manufactured narrative. The whole BLM thing stinks in Sweden, because the very fact that there are so many blacks in Sweden is predicated on the fact that these white Swedes indeed think blacks lives matter.” I think you are being very ignorant, Nimatzo. Stupid even. You are saying that BLM in Sweden stinks because white Swedes has ”imported many blacks” into Sweden and thus proven that black lives matter? Are you serious? What you are saying is that anyone in Sweden who stands up in solidarity with others against racism and injustices, stinks.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Jun 06 11:58:25 All of us who agree that racism is bad, still do not agree about how prevalent it is and how much influence systematic or otherwise it has in 2020. Disagreeing can come off as being glib towards other peoples worries, it is a risk we take when using words. I can only keep using words to try and dispel the worry, if I believe it isn't real. So, if I was talking to someone and I thought, this would be a sensitive subject for them, I would just use different words to not alienate them, and still try to dispel the myth they believe in. But you are not one of those people seb and this is not one of those times.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Jun 06 12:06:36 Paramount I think you are being daft, but this normal so I will explain it. I am saying that while most africans in the USA are descendant of people who were brought as slave labor to the USA, Africans in Sweden are not. Africans in Sweden are in Sweden because Swedish people thought a black life indeed mattered. And Sweden did has still expresses this belief by giving black people asylum when they escape the various shitholes of Africa, away from starvation, malaria, war, and other assorted calamities. It is called a non sequitur or like dividing with zero.
Paramount Member	Sat Jun 06 12:49:12 ” most africans in the USA are descendant of people who were brought as slave labor to the USA, Africans in Sweden are not” So what? What does it matter if they are descendants to slaves or not? BLM or Africans in Sweden does not stink because they are standing up against racism and injustices in solidarity with people in the US.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Jun 06 13:28:50 You can not have paid any attention to the orgs that organize these events and what they say. That's on you.
Seb Member	Sat Jun 06 19:31:31 Nim: "nd upper political levels of this grievance movement that are expressing and conveying exactly those ideas." I'm sorry, but this language of "grievance movement" is quite prejudicial don't you think? "Obviously if what they were saying is true and we are all being oppressed by white people all the time, I would find that very important to be energized about." I suspect a great deal comes down to language. If you grow up in an inner city estate, and you are regularly arm locked by the police doing a frisk because they reckon you are a criminal, that's pretty oppresive. And oppressions can be systemic and hard to pin down to specific actions made by specific actors. You are familiar, because we've spoken before about it, those studies in france where researchers sent out hundreds of identical CVs with only the name changed to suggest a particular racial background, and got back a significant different in number called to interview. You are being extraordinarily quick to dismiss people's claims. You've got to the point you are calling it cultural appropriation, grievance culture etc. without ever really explaining *why* you believe racism is a non issue (despite those that report it): you are just asserting it isn't an important facet. "My point is that of all the places in the world, Sweden, UK nor the USA stand out on the issue of racism." Well, if that was the right way to think, we'd never have abolished slavery and the slave trade in the first place. " at the same thing and one is seeing a racist hellhole (there is no other way to describe it) and the other is seeing, one of the greatest place on earth." A country that deploys violence to journalists on sight is not fitting of being described as a greatest place on earth. "I am saying to black people in sweden that the racism they experiences in Sweden does not give them the right to appropriate african-american grievances which is only relevant to their time and place in history to Sweden" Again, why not? You see this as two distinct isolated cases, but many do not: they see it as part of the same pan-European approach from the 17th century onwards that has categorised Blacks as inferior and which still shapes attitudes to Blacks now. I think there is a huge difference between saying "I don't agree with your cause" and "I think your cause is so lacking in merit that you are essentially making it up, and so it is offensive to me that you even protest about it". The way I read your comments regarding appropriation etc. is very much the latter.
sam adams Member	Sat Jun 06 23:38:12 http://www...calls-to-avoid-mass-gatherings Which is more important seb? Social distancing or social justice whining?
Seb Member	Sun Jun 07 03:33:17 You could in principle do both. However, given that the govt reopened schools and is relaxing lockdown rules since last week, In not really sure there is much if a dichotomy as you think.
Seb Member	Sun Jun 07 03:34:18 I love that the alt-right line is that lockdown is too expensive so busy be lifted, but should be observed by those protesting against their political position.
jergul large member	Sun Jun 07 06:29:02 I will just toss this in here 115 years since dissolution of Union with Sweden. Its an official flag day here, so our flag is up. Leaving unions can work out ok, if there is a will to make things better.
Habebe Member	Sun Jun 07 07:32:27 Happy independence day.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Jun 07 08:28:04 >>I'm sorry, but this language of "grievance movement" is quite prejudicial don't you think?<< I'm sorry you feel you are offended by the language, but this is only due to not understanding "language". grievance /ˈɡriːv(ə)ns/ Learn to pronounce noun a real or imagined cause for complaint, especially unfair treatment. In your imagination, I am saying "imaginary", despite in a parenthesis explicitly saying "real or otherwise", because I know some posters have trouble understanding "language". And this is where I grow tired of you seb.
Seb Member	Sun Jun 07 09:08:30 Nim: I think you need to look up what prejudicial means, read again, and think carefully about what it is I'm saying. As it stands, the fact you appear to have incorrectly inferred that what I have written means I'm offended suggests you have dramatically missed the point.
Seb Member	Sun Jun 07 09:23:46 "Grievance culture", by the way, is a term typically used to suggest that those articulating the grievance are exaggerating the offence in order to secure political advantage abs equating victimhood with moral worth. The relevant question I have for you is how, exactly, you determine the difference between someone articulating a grievance and the adoption of a grievance culture? It sounds to me very much like a form of sophistry that is being used to justify "good grievances" (my science is being suppressed by SJWs!) And "Bad grievances" (we are being systematically discriminated against in all sorts of complex systemic ways that need to be addressed). You say that by saying "real or imagined" you are not stating outright the experience of blacks in the US, UK or Sweden is not imagined, but this (unless it is intended to be sarcastic, in which case I'm affraid it got lost in translation): "Yes seb, I am saying to black people in sweden that the racism they experiences in Sweden does not give them the right to appropriate african-american grievances which is only relevant to their time and place in history to Sweden, (hole sentence in one breath) and to use this as grounds to protest against racism in Sweden. I believe I called it "retarded"." You appear to be explicitly rejecting out of hand the idea that there is a common cause or experience to racism. As though all the different white countries of the world decided African populations were legitimate to enslave, and then that was all magically erased and started again, but that all modern 20th century racism against blacks that shares similar patterns across Europe and the US is a series of unrelated coincidences. How is that anything other than suggesting and the idea that it has a common cause is a figment of imagination? So far, there isn't much tangible that you have offered here to substantiate what amounts to an airy dismissal of protests. The strongest you've come up with (and that's a relative term) is that the US isn't the most racist country out there. Which of course doesn't mean that by the standards of the society, the experience of those of African descent falls far below what we would tolerate for white people.
jergul large member	Sun Jun 07 09:30:09 Habebe Hehe. We have a Liberation Day - Victory Europe 1945 Constitution Day - Idependence from Denmark 1814 And Union Dissolution Day - From Sweden 1905 Independence is a tricky term. Norway has been a unified kingdom for a long, long time. But often shared kings and governments with other Kingdoms.
Seb Member	Sun Jun 07 09:35:48 The problem with using the term "grievance culture" is the implication that the grounds for grievance are secondary (perhaps exaggerated or even contrived) and subjective rather than objective. And thus ignorable. It's a roundabout way of impugning motivation and shifting the discussion away from the objective assessment of facts and onto a discussion that focuses instead on the character of the complainant. And that is why I asked you to consider of it was a perjudicial? If you are invoking grievance culture as an explanation as to *why* people are protesting, you've already summarily dismissed the idea that there could be an objective reason for them to do so. And generally you haven't really articulated a strong case as to why there can be no objective reason. What you've offered is the - to me at least - highly implausible idea that racism experienced by blacks in the US and various European cultures are somehow all entirely unrelated. But even if that was true, we regularly see protests in one country about things in and country. It rings as hollow as saying that protests in London about the Spanish civil war, and the actions by the international brigades, were "grievance culture" because the experiences of people in London and Spain were different. It would suggest any form of international solidarity over a point of principle, is invalid. I'm sure China and Russia would love that!
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Jun 07 09:53:37 Seb No no, by the way, I said grievance "movement". This type of fast and loose game with words and concept creep is one of hurdles in talking to you about this. This one may be benign, but one can not be too careful with you. Anyway, this is your language and oxford dictionary is apparently the gold standard for speaking your language. I am not immersed in all the cultural and provincial lcomplexities, I am speaking international english. You are basically triggered that I called them "rebels" and not freedom fighters or terrorists. I used a neutral word to describe something one should (according to you) be unquestionably passionate about. Mea culpa father, forgive me my sins as I will forgive the sins of others. >>exactly, you determine the difference between someone articulating a grievance and the adoption of a grievance culture?<< By the way I said "narrative". Anyway, by identifying a correlation fallacy. No, just because you have the same skin color it does not follow that you have the same experience. No, just because you are black living in a majority white country, it does not follow that you have the same experience. And it is just patently obvious that the countries did not have the same history. So that is not even wrong territory. But also. I was one of those kids when I was a teenager, in that I myself appropriated african-american culture and grievance narrative and was convinced I could see all the parallels in my own life living in the "ghetto" on the west side. I was quite But then I grew up and "made it" out of the "hood" and realized things were not that cut and dry, that world was perhaps a little more complicated than I had thought. I listened to more black voices talk about social issues and I realized that the African-american culture is not a monolith and so I do not to play a fiddle in harmony with some imaginary consensus. "good grievances" Yea yea I am not involved in this auspicious battle like you are so I do not think in terms of "good" and "bad" grievances, but real and imaginary, just as the oxford dictionary says. If grievances are real, they must be resolved, if they are imaginary they must be unravelled (socratic method, evidence and dialogue). It is in principle a very easy distinction to make, one we could all agree on. In fact it is a corner stone of civilization that have processes to deal with grievances, real or imaginary. >>As though all the different white countries of the world decided African populations were legitimate to enslave,<<
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Jun 07 10:13:21 too soon >>As though all the different white countries of the world decided African populations were legitimate to enslave,<< Historically nonsensical. >>And generally you haven't really articulated a strong case as to why there can be no objective reason.<< I am not sure what this even means. It is not within the scope of my conversation to make any level of case as to why there can not be objective reasons for anything. I experience the world and I form opinions and then when a strong case is made against my belief I may change my opinion. >>It rings as hollow<< Because you have not lived my life, but also I was paying attention to what the people involved in the Swedish BLM were doing and saying before this.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Jun 07 10:18:35 Apparently auspicious does not mean I thought it meant. Divine.
sam adams Member	Sun Jun 07 10:48:38 "I love that the alt-right line is that lockdown is too expensive so busy be lifted, but should be observed by those protesting against their political position." I could care less if the lockdowns are being obeyed when they have been established to do more societal harm than good. But your "8 more weeks of lockdown" whining went away real fast once your prefered social justice cause popped up.
Seb Member	Sun Jun 07 11:03:42 Nim: Explain to me what you mean by grievance movement. To my ear it sounds exactly like grievance culture. You have a broad anti racist movement focusing particularly around police discrimination. What are you intending to convey by describing it as a "grievance movement"? It implies it shares common characteristics with other movements. What are these common characteristics and how is it distinct at all from any other protest movement? You say I'm playing fast and loose, but honestly the way you appear to be using the phrase it seems to be a difference without a distinction. In any case, I think the key point here is that they are saying they do have the same experience: that police routinely associate them with criminality and subject them to greater levels of scrutiny and interference in their day to day life *because of the colour of their skin*. You seem to be rejecting this outright because in the US that means getting shot, whereas in Europe that particular outcome is less likely. And beyond dressing up this assertion - that the experiences aren't the same - you've got really explained why you think they aren't. "Historically nonsensical" You are seriously denying that the justification and rationalisation for slavery of specifically Africans (particularly after around 1600) wasn't buttressed by increasingly elaborate theories of racial superiority? Slavery had been increasingly driven out of practice in Europe through the medieval period, increasingly associated with morality. The practical reasons for enslaving Africans were twofold: their nations were far weaker and there was an existing culture of taking slaves to exploit. But to overcome the moral stigma of slavery and explain the incongruity of why it was ok to enslave Africans but not many other cultures, elaborate racial hierchies explaining why e.g. Asians weren't enslaved etc. were produced, as an well as religious reasons (curse of Ham, mark of Cain). These were ideas that were spread across Europe and the root of persistent ideas about Africa and the inferiority of Africans. To suggest this is historically nonsensical is absurd. Otherwise, it would just be enslaving people.
Seb Member	Sun Jun 07 11:06:35 Sam: It's be four more weeks by now. But the UK govt effectively lifted lockdown back in may. So why would I oppose BLM protests as breaking a lockdown that doesn't exist right now? It's the weakest attempt at a gotcha I've ever seen. Yes, it will spread the disease, but not any more than the other dense outdoor activities and re-opening of schools. Why on earth would I argue that specifically BLM protestors should observe lockdown when the rest of the country isn't?
Seb Member	Sun Jun 07 11:08:02 But Sam, at least the UK is going to provide you with a test case of your policy! We've done a Sam, and delayed lockdown for as long as possible and then lifted lockdown s early. Let's see if we have a speedier recovery than the rest of Europe!
The Children Member	Sun Jun 07 11:44:06 down with racists statues! powa of da peoples! da peoples have spoken. they have taken action!
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Jun 07 11:56:30 Seb According to the oxford dictionary: A grievance is a real or imagined cause for complaint, especially unfair treatment. So a "grievance movement" would be a movement centered around one or several grievances. >>It implies it shares common characteristics with other movements. What are these common characteristics and how is it distinct at all from any other protest movement?<< Yes seb, the shared characteristics is _grievances_. Not every movement or organization is centered around grievances. >>but honestly the way you appear to be using the phrase it seems to be a difference without a distinction.<< So despite giving you the distinction made in the dictionary for grievance and explaining, in principle, how real and imaginary grievances should be dealt with this is your take away. Fascinating. >>I think the key point here is that they are saying they do have the same experience<< >>You seem to be rejecting this outright because in the US that means getting shot, whereas in Europe that particular outcome is less likely.<< You can have experiences and still draw the wrong conclusions, I can listen to your experience and still think you have reached the wrong conclusion. You know, like the white guy who becomes a skinhead after getting jumped by 4 "immigrants". He extrapolates from his biased and available sample size and reaches the wrong conclusions about the world. You would agree on that, so you should really not be that baffled by the concept. I did that, 15 year old me who knew next to nothing about anything looked at the world, listen to Tupac say Fuck the world. It all made sense back then, and the sentiment still resonates just at a higher abstraction and I am a bit more pragmatic about how the world should be fucked. So this idea, that what I am saying comes from a lack of experience or empathy, is objectively false. You may disagree with it and dislike it, but it comes from more experience than you. Ultimately it is uninteresting, because you would never agree that _my_ experience as an immigrant some how validates my conclusions about immigration issues. >>You are seriously denying that the justification and rationalisation for slavery of specifically Africans (particularly after around 1600) wasn't buttressed by increasingly elaborate theories of racial superiority?<< No. That you are ignoring the history and extent of slavery to make this about white people. I want some of that guilt. I am just curious if you actually believe the European justification for slavery was different from the ones Arabs used? Or the Africans who caught and sold other Africans to Europeans as slaves? Should I quote the religious justification The Islamic state used? Inferior people and they even make distinctions between the different inferior people, they all have different names. Like a hierarchy on the value god puts on people.
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