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Utopia Talk / Politics / No good guys with guns
Paramount
Member
Thu Feb 27 05:58:01
Whenever there is a shooting there is never a good guy with a gun who can stop the shooter. It always has to be the police who stops the bad guy, if not the bad guy kills himself. Why is that? Should more Americans buy more guns?


MILWAUKEE – In one of the worst shootings in Wisconsin history, five people were killed Wednesday by a gunman during a rampage on the Milwaukee campus of Molson Coors.

The gunman died by suicide, bringing the total of known dead so far to six. Initial accounts from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel indicated at least seven had died, but that number has since been clarified.

The suspect was a 51-year-old Milwaukee man who died from a fatal gunshot wound, Milwaukee Police Chief Alfonso Morales said.

Molson Coors CEO Gavin Hattersley called the shooter “an active brewery employee.”

http://eu....s-milwaukee-campus/4884534002/
Habebe
Member
Thu Feb 27 06:11:49
http://www...urch-shooting-texas/index.html

Literally just happened over Xmas.
Habebe
Member
Thu Feb 27 06:30:09
Now thats not to say this is the standard rule rather than the exception, but it definitley does happen, I dont know the frequency.
Dukhat
Member
Thu Feb 27 07:16:43
One time out of many and even then, the shooter is still able to kill a lot of people.
Rugian
Member
Thu Feb 27 08:58:57
You're right, a good guy with a gun here wouldnt have helped save any lives. Dukhat you China-loving authoritarian fascist cunt.
Paramount
Member
Thu Feb 27 10:32:57
” Literally just happened over Xmas.”

That is like the first time I have ever heard of a good guy with a gun stopping a bad guy.
Dukhat
Member
Thu Feb 27 10:38:14
I have no problem with law-abiding citizens getting guns. Just not m16's or anything that can spray bullets that can kill and wound hundreds of people before a "good guy with a gun" can stop them. And also they should have to undergo a background check and gun safety training and wait a couple of days.

Just think of it this way: Angry little asshats like you will still be able to get guns anyways but it will be more difficult for blacks and minorities too.
Rugian
Member
Thu Feb 27 10:42:47
"I have no problem with law-abiding citizens getting guns. Just not m16's"

I have some great news for you then! Manufacturers have been barred from selling m16s to civilians since 1986. The only ones you can buy are at least 34 years old, are heavily regulated and hugely expensive.

Rofl. Dukhat, why are you and the gun-hating press so ignorant of a topic that you're supposedly so passionate about?
sam adams
Member
Thu Feb 27 10:44:14

"Just think of it this way: Angry little asshats like you will still be able to get guns anyways but it will be more difficult for blacks and minorities too"

Lol. That is actually a good argument. More background checks!
Habebe
Member
Thu Feb 27 18:18:02
On a serious most gun control is aimed at disarming minorities.
Rugian
Member
Thu Feb 27 18:23:58
Sam,

Please. As if negroes get their guns by going through the legal process.
Dukhat
Member
Thu Feb 27 18:59:44
And if they have illegal guns after more guns safety laws are passed, they go to jail longer. And republicans can put them in prisons in gerrymandered rural districts and use their population to get more representatives in government even though those prisoners cannot vote.

Republicans always love laws that take away power from blacks. And also laws that let them tet more votes than they’d otherwise get. It’s a twofer baby. Win-win.
jergul
large member
Thu Feb 27 19:05:32
Blacks actually had the lowest number of firearms. 1% of blacks searched in stop and frisk had firearms. 1.2% Hispanics did. 1.5 of white people did. This for NY back when doing that was popular.
Rugian
Member
Thu Feb 27 19:16:15
Dukhat,

It's gun control. Gun *control*. Your Orwellian attempts to redefine the language we speak will not be respected here.
Habebe
Member
Thu Feb 27 19:52:17
Rugian, Generally the people who are for GC have no idea how the system works. They assume most people buy machine guns at the corner store next to the beef jerky and that they have .50 ammo.
Habebe
Member
Thu Feb 27 19:56:41
http://www...50-caliber-bullets%3f_amp=true
Wrath of Orion
Member
Thu Feb 27 20:07:52
You're right, that proves most people who are for gun control have no idea how the system works. Well done. Retard Rod levels of stupidity here.
kargen
Member
Thu Feb 27 20:30:07
http://www...gs_prevented_by_armed_citizens
Forwyn
Member
Thu Feb 27 20:43:11
lol @ Cuckhat's machine gun rant

"No good guys with guns"

"According to Molson Coors’ website, its campus is a gun free zone and concealed carry weapons are not allowed on site."

"Retard Rod levels of stupidity here."

Yes. Plenty of Retard Rod levels of stupidity in Congress, and several state legislatures around hte nation.
Habebe
Member
Thu Feb 27 20:59:26
Wrath, I would wager a large share of them don't. Many prominent figures in the movement either admit to it or have been caught not knowing the basics of firearms such as the diffetence between a semi automatic rifle and a full auto machine gun.
Wrath of Orion
Member
Thu Feb 27 21:07:39
Yes, I'm aware of your opinion.
Dukhat
Member
Thu Feb 27 21:29:46
More cuckservative gasighting:

1) "The place was gun-free! If a good guy with a gun was there, he would've been stopped!": Almost certainly not since this guy had intent to kill, surprise on his side, and knew the layout of the place. He would've killed who he intended to kill before being stopped either way.

2) "Those cucks don't know the difference between guns!" Irrelevant. Decreasing the lethality of available guns is the goal which means slower rates of fire and less powerful rounds available. A good guy with a gun only needs one or two bullets to put down a bad guy with a gun. The bad guy needs limited access to deadly guns to limit the damage he can do before he's stopped.

3) "Orweillian!11" Not like Republicans have tried to change the terminology with "right-to-work" laws which strip workers of all rights and are a big reason why most of the MAGA base of underemployed white guys are so angry. But they don't care about real policies to improve things just like they don't care that even under the strictest gun laws passed by liberals, good guys still get access to guns. The world is grey. Live in it instead of some black-and-white bubble.
Habebe
Member
Thu Feb 27 21:30:18
Now this good guy with a gun debate, is this in regards to individuals or just mass shootings? Im not here to debate 25 year old stats that aleays get brought up in this debate and lead no where ( Lott)

But I can say Ive lived in N Philly and knew people all the time that defended themselves from attacks/ home invasions etc.

Forwyn
Member
Thu Feb 27 21:48:53
1) There will always be outliers, and there will always be well-prepared lone wolves. These are outliers. Deaths in mass shootings are statistically insignificant.

2) Several of the highest-KC shootings have involved pistols. The OP involved pistols. Again, planning goes much further than magazine size. The Dallas cuck broke some windows with an AR and died in an alley with a gunshot wound to the chest.

In any case, the failure of of anti-gun legislators to acquire even foundational knowledge of firearms is significant. It leads to retarded bans like:

Mini-14 with "militarized stock" and/or picatinny rail: banned!
Mini-14 with wooden stock: A-okay!

"Decreasing the lethality of available guns is the goal"

According to you. Neither the Second Amendment nor gun owners have made any such equivocation.
Habebe
Member
Thu Feb 27 23:33:49
Honestly, my issue is more this. I realize that there may be more mass shootings these days in an environment as saturated with guns as the US. Obviously I disagree and condone these acts.

But I like the the right to keep and bear arms. I think the same could be said with most other amendments in the bill of rights.

Could we save many lives if we didn't have that pesky 4th amendment? Of course, if we could have the cops search anyone at anytime on suspicion or profiling many lives would be saved, but is it worth our freedom?

Or how about the 1st amendment? Surely free speech/expression has its downside. That's a downside im willing to accept for such a right.

Hell the tenth, statea rights. Lousianna has been fucking its people over for decades (the Republicans in this case, but thats its own thread)

Americans have always had a Libertarian streak, guns are in our culture, engrained from day one just as much as freedom of religion, speech to right feel safe and pursue life, liberty and happiness in our vision.

We may make mistakes, we may not live as perfect as communist china, but we are not meant to be perfect, were not machines. We are only human and for many of us mistakes are ok, all we have ever wanted is the right to make our own mistakes.

This is why we choose tp live in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
Dukhat
Member
Fri Feb 28 03:40:25
A false dichotomy. There will come a day where we simply MAGA and return to the policies of the 70s when the most dangerous guns were not available. And on top of that we will have waiting periods and universal background checks. And your lives will be mostly the same and the amount of shooting deaths will be far less just like what happened in Australia where there are still a ton of guns.

kargen
Member
Fri Feb 28 11:27:05
Yeah let's be more like Australia and have mass murder by arson skyrocket.

People intent on doing harm will find a way. People claiming guns are the problem do so because they have no real answers.
Forwyn
Member
Fri Feb 28 15:14:55
Imagine living in a world where receivers can be 3D-printed out of aluminum, guts kits can be bought by the truckload with little to no paper trail, and thinking Pandora's Box hasn't been opened.

The 70's aren't coming back.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sat Feb 29 01:55:19
"Yeah let's be more like Australia and have mass murder by arson skyrocket"

dumb argument... by 'skyrocket' you mean how it went from ~5 per year to ~8 per year w/ too much variation to draw any conclusion? (& almost always single victim)

========

good guy w/ a gun:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?t=sEFf6_1582842522
patom
Member
Sat Feb 29 05:45:09
If you are a good guy with a gun. You had best be aware of what is going on around you. If you start waving your gun around and the police show up or another good guy with a gun sees you. You could be targeted as the 'Bad guy with a gun'.
Forwyn
Member
Sat Feb 29 10:04:51
Imagine trusting cucks like Seb and Trump with your inherent right to self defense because of emotional appeals about shootings a thousand miles away
kargen
Member
Sat Feb 29 11:15:45
"(& almost always single victim)"

by definition an incident of mass murder is going to be more than one. That is why the put the word "mass" in there.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sat Feb 29 12:44:37
so you are sticking w/ arson mass murders 'skyrocketing' in Australia? (seems to be one every several years...)

plus a dumb argument regardless of the dumb Australia part

i know you have trouble understanding how human brains work, but if the shooter can't obtain the AR-15 he wants, he will go to a gun he can obtain... not switch to arson/bombing/poison/trucks... this is not speculation, it's obvious

an AR-15 isn't the best gun in existence for school/office combat, everyone using an AR-15 probably would've gone w/ a different gun if every gun in existence was readily available to them... people go w/ what they can get

(and a full gun ban isn't on any realistic table, despite NRA fearmongering)
kargen
Member
Sat Feb 29 14:05:45
"i know you have trouble understanding how human brains work, but if the shooter can't obtain the AR-15 he wants, he will go to a gun he can obtain... not switch to arson/bombing/poison/trucks... this is not speculation, it's obvious"

See we both agree people intent on doing evil will find a way to do evil. Take away one type of gun maybe they use another. Take away all guns maybe the rent a Ryder truck or maybe the make a bomb. Point still stands. Guns are not the problem as you have so effectively shown when you thought you were offering a counter argument.

And mass murder by arson increased over 700% in Australia since the gun ban brought on by the Port Arthur Massacre.
Habebe
Member
Sat Feb 29 14:10:49
I think* what Kargen was saying was not that the gun ban caused* that increase.

But obviously the ban had no positive effect on violence and crime.

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sat Feb 29 14:35:03
"Guns are not the problem as you have so effectively shown "

and gun restrictions are not intended to end mass violence... it's to decrease lethality

========

"And mass murder by arson increased over 700% in Australia since the gun ban brought on by the Port Arthur Massacre. "

back that up w/ actual incidents, not percentages... then feel stupid

=======

"was not that the gun ban caused* that increase"

he's explicitly suggesting that
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sat Feb 29 14:47:43
i see 5 total since that gun ban

2000 Jun
2006 Feb
2011 Nov
2014 Sep
2017 Mar

so if your "700%" is real (& i'm missing 2 incidents) then it went from 1 to 7 over an ~20 year period... hardly meaningful

source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia

you could also say it 'spiked 50%' in the 2010s vs the 2000s decade... but why would you
Forwyn
Member
Sat Feb 29 15:50:56
"it's to decrease lethality"

Ah. So we're back to bans on semi-autos and magazines?
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sat Feb 29 16:33:42
just noting kargen is wrong, plus missing the point
Habebe
Member
Sat Feb 29 16:52:07
Even if* having guns causes slightly more deaths, im ok with that trade off. I feel similar in regards to Swimming pools, pizza and cars.

Suicide, that's a real issue. Hi dont we worry about that more?

Instead were afraid of guns , sharks four more years of Trump.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sat Feb 29 17:55:22
guns are the leading method of suicide (and no they wouldn't all do it a different way)... just noting the facts, not advocating anything


4 more years of Trump is way more concerning than suicide, guns or sharks
kargen
Member
Sat Feb 29 19:23:20
Nah I am not wrong. Guns are not the problem. Take away the guns and all you do is make people use some other weapon. Renting a van and jumping up on the sidewalk to kill and injure multiple people has seen an increase.

Taking away guns just shifts the weapon of choice stats not the overall numbers. That is why the vast majority of people wanting more restrictions on guns report how much gun violence has decreased but are absolutely silent on the overall numbers.
Habebe
Member
Sat Feb 29 22:05:31
Tw, If someone wants to end it, I think they're going to end it.

Guns don't cause people to be suicidal.

At most one could argue its a quick and convienent method so if someone was inclined they may go towards an easy out.

The more underlying issues I would like to see covered by healthcare.
Forwyn
Member
Sat Feb 29 23:12:18
Using suicide statistics to push for AWB/mag bans/whatever the fuck else is even less convincing than dead kids in a school two thousand miles away.

I don't give a fuck that Joey burned out after high school because he couldn't deal, and shot himself in the face with a Yeet Cannon.
Dukhat
Member
Sun Mar 01 08:04:13
Joey probably had a father like you and killed himself. Toxic masculinity run amuck doesn't end well for relationships and families.
Wrath of Orion
Member
Sun Mar 01 09:31:31
"Tw, If someone wants to end it, I think they're going to end it."

It's far more complicated than that.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3290984/
Forwyn
Member
Sun Mar 01 09:34:34
If only I channeled my toxic masculinity into a proper avenue, like pushing emotional arguments and shit statistics to deprive people of rights. :'( Poor Joey
Dukhat
Member
Sun Mar 01 09:55:44
My shit statistics made my networth 10 figures. What job do you work again where you still don't make 6 figures after 10 years on the job?

And telling other people they use emotional arguments lol. 99% of your arguments are about how much you hate the other side just like every other cuckservative.
Dukhat
Member
Sun Mar 01 10:05:08
Literally all your arguments are bad faith, mouthbreather arguments about some picayune technical issue about guns. There is no real attempt at coming up with a solution to decrease gun violence from a conservative perspective because you're not really a conservative.

You're a deadender reactionary who has been radicalized like most dumb men to think any kind of gun law is some violation of some fundamental right.

Literally propagandized against all the sensible gun regulations that work in other countries and where responsible people still have access to guns.

Get over your fucking self asshole.
TJ
Member
Sun Mar 01 10:44:59
10 figure networth. Yippee ki-yay!
sam adams
Member
Sun Mar 01 11:09:16
Shooter was one of sebs protected special classes. No wonder the media dropped this story so fast. Couldnt blame the white man.
Forwyn
Member
Sun Mar 01 14:06:57
Billionaire Cuckhat, rofl

Look, it's not really my fault that you think the nuts and bolts of your proposed laws are "picayune technical issue(s)".

One of your first comments in this thread was about a full-auto/burst-capable rifle that is not available to the average citizen.

There are a handful of rich citizens who have the time and resources available to acquire pre-1986 grandfathered weapons - these run in the tens of thousands of dollars. Any such weapons manufactured after then still require thousands of dollars, and background checks to include a face to face interview with a federal agent, with regular audits. They can roll in yearly to verify continued ownership.

Illicit manufacture of automatic weapons is just as in-depth. You can be literally raided and have your life ruined for folding a coat hanger like this:

http://www...7181_2115440125365190656_n.jpg

Because it can be dropped in to make your rifle moderately effective at automatic fire for a few hundred rounds before it snaps.

How long of a barrel are you allowed to have on your AR, Cuckhat? You can buy 14.5" barrels online. Oh wait, you affixed it on a new rifle with a permanently attached muzzle device to bring the overall barrel length over 16"? Enjoy being a felon. Regulations are intentionally onerous, and the ATF has no problem burning down your house with your kids inside because that shotgun barrel was too short.

It's also not my fault that not everyone shares your Chicken Little cuck attitude about "gun violence". Gun homicides have dropped drastically since we were kids. Gun injuries have dropped drastically since we were kids.

If you're not suicidal, a gang member, or in an abusive relationship, suddenly your chances of dying to a gun are astronomically low.

Finally, it's not really my fault that people don't trust gungrabbers. You've spent years whining about muh common sense gun legislation
like: background checks. What you actually did in power was to try to seize guns from Pappy's case after he died

http://www.syracuse.com/news/2014/11/buffalo_police_seize_guns_owners_death.html

Like: mental health. What you actually did in power was to eliminate gun rights for seniors who have another person handle Social Security bureaucratic affairs for them

http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/la-na-gun-law-20150718-story.html

Meanwhile, your approach to "decrease lethality" is to ignore the common use ruling of the Supreme Court and, whenever you get legislative majorities, you skirt restrictions on gun bans by making licensing so onerous as to amount to a ban to non-elites, and you want to institute a new AWB, red flag laws, and mag bans, without grandfather clauses. People who don't turn metal boxes with springs become felons.

Your gungrabber cult is becoming more rabid and virulent every cycle, while you continue to accuse others of being the "deadender reactionaries". lulz
Forwyn
Member
Tue Jun 09 02:31:42
Billionaire Cuckhat. rofl. ttt
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jul 29 06:31:17
lol
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