Utopia Talk / Politics / Russian space craft

swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Sep 04 10:15:02 Russia says space station leak could be deliberate sabotage September 4, 2018 Russia launched checks Tuesday after its space chief said an air leak on the International Space Station last week could have been deliberate sabotage. Read more at: http://phy...ation-leak-deliberate.html#jCp
Sam Adams Member	Tue Sep 04 11:49:16 Because russian aerospace is so well correlated with reliability. Lulz. Hey, at least you can beat china.
Nekran Member	Tue Sep 04 11:54:56 That and carry US astronauts to the ISS...
Rugian Member	Tue Sep 04 11:59:24 Speaking of which.. Russia to stop flying U.S. astronauts to the International Space Station in April, increasing pressure on NASA http://www...ng-pressure-nasa/#.W465rnMpA0M
Sam Adams Member	Tue Sep 04 12:08:46 Well nasa sucks lately, no debate there. Spacex will land on mars for one fiftieth of the cost. Private enterprise for the win. Enterprise get it!
murder Member	Tue Sep 04 21:14:07 SpaceX isn't going anywhere. You've got to give Elon Musk a ton of credit. He's managed to convince people that he's making great advances while making none at all. Mankind is no closer to Mars today than it was in 1970. SpaceX has been working for 16 years, and it's still hasn't managed to replicate the success of the Apollo program despite a half century gap.
Forwyn Member	Tue Sep 04 21:22:16 You're right, they need to cook some astronauts alive and then land on the moon to collect 50lb of space rocks, in a module that becomes a garbage can after reentry and splashdown
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Sep 05 04:31:26 Sending people to the moon for a day and bring them back when all the equipment is trashed is not very difficult. It is trivial to repeat the success of Apollo today, provided you have cold war era spending money. If however the plan is to launch and replicate efficiently and build a permanent settlement, then no one has solved that yet.
Seb Member	Wed Sep 05 06:10:18 Murder: That's rather unfair. He's doing it on a fraction of a budget while having to generate revenues, and the rocket technology they've developed allows vastly more sustainable and scaleable operations. OTOH with Musk clearly burning out, I can't see the company sticking to a mars vision.
smart dude Member	Wed Sep 05 09:06:53 Please don't take Forwyn seriously. He'd prefer that the human race were wandering nomads, plucking wild corn and sucking marrow from the bones of half-decayed buffalo. The only alternative would be civilization, which sucks because MUH CODES.
Forwyn Member	Wed Sep 05 10:01:13 Cute. We need municipal leeches making sure people don't build unlicensed carports in their driveways to make it to space. I've only spent years here defending scientific spending, especially space-related. But MUH CODES
murder Member	Wed Sep 05 11:38:52 "Sending people to the moon for a day and bring them back when all the equipment is trashed is not very difficult." No, sending people into orbit and bringing them back is trivial ... and he hasn't managed that yet.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Sep 05 12:00:23 It is trivial for many of the same reasons and not the problems people are trying solve.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Sep 05 12:02:03 No, it is very difficult. The number of organizations that have independently sent humans to orbit remains at 2.
murder Member	Wed Sep 05 12:25:15 "That's rather unfair. He's doing it on a fraction of a budget while having to generate revenues, and the rocket technology they've developed allows vastly more sustainable and scaleable operations." He's also not starting from scratch. He's building upon what others built before him. Most of the work was complete before he was even born. Musk is more PT Barnum than anything else.
murder Member	Wed Sep 05 12:35:41 "OTOH with Musk clearly burning out, I can't see the company sticking to a mars vision." There's no point in going to Mars other than to say that you did it. Attempting to colonize that planet would be insane and stupid. If he's really worried about the survival of the human race, then a city in orbit would accomplish the same.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Sep 05 13:01:05 "No, it is very difficult. The number of organizations that have independently sent humans to orbit remains at 2." China? It is technically trivial, but economically unsound for most nations.
Seb Member	Wed Sep 05 13:11:36 Murder: As was Werner von braun. Ford's genius was mass production. Consider evolution of a product as starting with a genesis, moving through bespoke instances, to standardised products and then commodity/utility. What drives this is competitive dynamics driving greater consensus on the features needed, improved reliability etc. Both the generation of new concepts is as valid a form of innovation as shifting things towards commodity. For it is when things become standardised, repeatable and cheap that new products and services can be built on top of them. NASA represents brilliance in the genesis and bespoke space. But Saturn rockets were not at all suitable for a permanent presence on the moon. But musk rockets, cheaper, reusable etc. And the real thing to note here is that despite having way more money, backed by solid revenue, more operational experience, more technical experience, spacex is outcompeting all the incumbents. Russia just cancelled proton m. Yes, Mars is quixotic in my view. But if the measure of success is to go where no man has gone before, that's the silly benchmark. I think the likelihood now is Musk is sideluned by the board (a cautionary tale in executive burnout), spacex will dominate the launch market and with the right leadership, could be leaders invarious higher value chain orbital services. Tesla might survive, but more likely i think if musk is sidelined they'll sell tech and brand to an existing manufacturer.
Seb Member	Wed Sep 05 13:14:58 But I think it churlish not to recognise Musks successes. In two separate domains he's dramatically shifted the market. Not by inventing some new tech but having the clarity of vision and ability to refine and develop a sustainable commercial route to sustain that shift. That's relatively unusual. However he is clearly way overextended and in need of a long break and maybe rehab.
Seb Member	Wed Sep 05 13:17:29 Pt barnum is grotesquely unfair. He's more like Edison (who invented relatively little, he stole European patents and exploited people like tesla) - effective at commercializing and industrialising new tech, and very good at personal branding as the ideator.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Sep 05 13:33:41 China? Copied the russian soyuz. Not really fair to call them independent.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Sep 05 14:20:24 Well, the rocket is the economically and technically trivial part, there you want reliability. It makes sense to go with something like the Soyuz, a tested design. Specially if you want to train astronauts and develop your own platform. The achievement of China (or really anyone) lies in having all the infrastructure and full capabilities. You should count them in!
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Sep 05 14:21:25 Not rocket the vessel!
Forwyn Member	Wed Sep 05 14:59:04 Governments can afford to waste money.
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