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Utopia Talk / Politics / The easiest invasion in history
Williamthebastard
Member
Fri Jul 20 01:57:32
I've had a hard time believing that Putin actually owns Trump, but Helsinki inter alia has pretty much confirmed he is. As the rank, fascinatingly incompetent amateur his is, blaring out his tells at every second, transforming in the blink of an eye from insulting and deeply offending all European leaders to sheepishly serving at Putins table, he didnt even manage to pull off the act in their first meeting, and instead played it so badly that the entire world spat out their coffee. Putin's probably going, not for the first time, hmmm maybe we should have gone with Romney after all.

For decades, the GOP has made syre of maintaining a large portion of the USA at the lowest levels of education in the west, and it didnt take long for Russia to conclude that the USA's weakest point of defence wasnt to be found through military means but through the fact that they maintaine, to a large degree, a very ignoranr and susceptible population. The myth that reagan stopped Russia is blown into smithereens now that the world sees that all they did was say: "revenge is best served cold."


So, easiest invasion and hostile take over of any country in all history. History will record that the USA went not with a bang and only barely a whimper.
smart dude
Member
Fri Jul 20 02:17:09
wtf did I just read. sober up and come back
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jul 20 02:18:26
Mm yes the GoP is anti education/science myth.
Seb
Member
Fri Jul 20 06:20:06
Nim:

They are though. Keep cutting education budgets at the local level. Whatever the intention is, that's the outcome.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jul 20 06:56:44
Insinuating that one must believe that the state must fund education and science to be pro science. Not that I actually believe the causal claim you are making, this is one of those complex systems where answers are not so simple. Genereically we can say that there is variance in how and what type of edu/sci project different parties see as worthwhile goals. It is expressed fairly well with regards to science (which can’t be seperated from education) by Niel DeGrasse Tyson in this 4 min video.

http://youtu.be/x7Q8UvJ1wvk
murder
Member
Fri Jul 20 08:30:59

"Genereically we can say that there is variance in how and what type of edu/sci project different parties see as worthwhile goals."

No, Republicans flat out deny scientific conclusions ... and they knowingly present false counter claims as a means of confusing the public.

Seb
Member
Fri Jul 20 10:06:10
Nim:

WtB is simply saying the repubs apparent hostility to and general underfunding of the education system has created the pool of people susceptible to manipulation.
Forwyn
Member
Fri Jul 20 10:11:42
If your name is Seb, you might be easily manipulable and think the answer is always more money.

WASHINGTON The United States spends more than other developed nations on its students' education each year, with parents and private foundations picking up more of the costs, an international survey released Tuesday found.

Despite the spending, U.S. students still trail their rivals on international tests.

The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development — which groups the world's most developed countries — writes in its annual report that brand-new and experienced teachers alike in the United States out-earn most of their counterparts around the globe. But U.S. salaries have not risen at the same pace as other nations.


The findings, part of a 440-page tome of statistics, put the United States' spending on its young people in context.

The United States spent more than $11,000 per elementary student in 2010 and more than $12,000 per high school student. When researchers factored in the cost for programs after high school education such as college or vocational training, the United States spent $15,171 on each young person in the system — more than any other nation covered in the report.

That sum inched past some developed countries and far surpassed others. Switzerland's total spending per student was $14,922 while Mexico averaged $2,993 in 2010. The average OECD nation spent $9,313 per young person.

http://www...-tops-global-list-study-shows/
obaminated
Member
Fri Jul 20 10:30:01
The GoP is against education. Right. So that's why, generally speaking, republicans support following the rules and getting a good education because they believe that is the way to succeed in life.
obaminated
Member
Fri Jul 20 10:31:37
Meanwhile, people actually opposed to education tend to be minorities who ridicule and bully good students out of jealousy/ignorance. But lets ignore Tyrek from Baltimore and instead scapegoat Carl from pasadena.
Rugian
Member
Fri Jul 20 10:44:26
The things you learn around here. Turns out I don't vote Democrat because Massachusetts GOPers (all ten of them) have denied me access to sociology and women's studies classes.

sd's right, sober up WTB.
murder
Member
Fri Jul 20 10:48:56
"But lets ignore Tyrek from Baltimore and instead scapegoat Carl from pasadena."

You mean Billy Bob from Hayseed, Indiana.

obaminated
Member
Fri Jul 20 12:12:06
I dont know fly over country.
Seb
Member
Fri Jul 20 12:12:24
obaminated:

"republicans support following the rules"

i.e. not asking questions?

Forwyn:

Interesting stats, but would be interesting to see a breakdown in red vs blue states - and then by local wealth. As I understand it you can get pretty huge disparities as a result whereas most other OECD countries aim to ensure transfer of wealth between geographic areas to give consistent educational standards.
TJ
Member
Fri Jul 20 12:48:50
http://www...n-spending-per-pupil-data.html

A breakdown of districts within States would be more telling. No time to delve into the district spending.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jul 20 13:39:12
https://www.zippia.com/advice/best-public-education-spending-by-state/

And this is education spending efficiency.

Top 10
1. Florida
2. Utah
3. Nevada
4. California
5. Colorado
6. Arizona
7. Texas
8. Georgia
9. Kentucky
10. Ohio
Paramount
Member
Fri Jul 20 13:50:09
Regardless of if parts of the population has been denied education or not by the GOP – a whole lot of the Hot Rod’s in America are ignorant, and WB’s first and third paragraph and much of the second paragraph are true.

Maybe we can just rephrase the first part of the first sentence in the second paragraph, like this:


I've had a hard time believing that Putin actually owns Trump, but Helsinki inter alia has pretty much confirmed he is. As the rank, fascinatingly incompetent amateur his is, blaring out his tells at every second, transforming in the blink of an eye from insulting and deeply offending all European leaders to sheepishly serving at Putins table, he didnt even manage to pull off the act in their first meeting, and instead played it so badly that the entire world spat out their coffee. Putin's probably going, not for the first time, hmmm maybe we should have gone with Romney after all.

For decades, a large portion of the population in the USA has been kept at the lowest levels of education in the west, It didnt take long for Russia to conclude that the USA's weakest point of defence wasnt to be found through military means but through the fact that they maintaine, to a large degree, a very ignoranr and susceptible population. The myth that reagan stopped Russia is blown into smithereens now that the world sees that all they did was say: "revenge is best served cold."


So, easiest invasion and hostile take over of any country in all history. History will record that the USA went not with a bang and only barely a whimper.
Seb
Member
Fri Jul 20 14:09:30
Nim:

The methodology that the efficiency score has needs more validation in my view. It has a potential weakness in that it rates outcomes by number of top grades effectively.

e.g. does a state that has a system that results in disparity of funding on a few schools (e.g. one that does not re-balances funding between rich and poor school districts) look better on efficiency then than one that strives for uniform high quality?

Got to be careful on the output metric here as the denominators of spend per pupil on average in the state and percentage of star rating schools are not on the basis. The latter accounts for variation between schools, the former doesn't.

Another way to do it would be to take spend per pupil in each school against the star rating of the school, then look at average over the state and the variance in the state. That would tell you a lot more.

It would be interesting to see how they compare.


Paramount:

That would be one way to avoid the rabbit hole of people upset about a particular party being singled out for being responsible for this awful Republican president who is selling out the US to Russia.
jergul
large member
Fri Jul 20 14:13:54
Seb
Is not methodology the scientific study of methods?

A pet peeve of mine.

"The methodology that the efficiency score has needs more validation in my view"

"In my view, the efficiency score method needs more validation"

Nit picked.
Forwyn
Member
Fri Jul 20 14:27:09
My state spends just shy of 30% of it's entire budget on education. This is on top of district spending, and one would assume that this should even out disparities. You get another $68B of DoE spending, some 40% of that to grants for higher education.
Seb
Member
Fri Jul 20 14:51:26
jergul:

Don't start! https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/methodology

It's a noun meaning a system of methods used in a particular area of study or activity.

Forwyn:

I think given the demographics, we should probably focus on primary and secondary education. If you need a degree to be able to spot obvious bullshit and self interested arguments etc. used for political subversion, god fucking help us.
Seb
Member
Fri Jul 20 14:53:10
RE US tertiary education costs, this is all I can really say:

https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/college-level-mathematics
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jul 20 15:38:55
>>Nim:

The methodology that the efficiency score has needs more validation in my view. It has a potential weakness in that it rates outcomes by number of top grades effectively.

e.g. does a state that has a system that results in disparity of funding on a few schools (e.g. one that does not re-balances funding between rich and poor school districts) look better on efficiency then than one that strives for uniform high quality?

Got to be careful on the output metric here as the denominators of spend per pupil on average in the state and percentage of star rating schools are not on the basis. The latter accounts for variation between schools, the former doesn't.

Another way to do it would be to take spend per pupil in each school against the star rating of the school, then look at average over the state and the variance in the state. That would tell you a lot more.

It would be interesting to see how they compare.<<

So then I hope we can agree that the education system and its' flaws, where they exist, requires "the GOP slashed the budget and made people stupid", which may or may not be true (I don't believe it is), but then, to what degree and in relation to what? Most other evidence suggests people have got smarter and better educated in general (even republicans and even people in poor states). And knowing what we know of US legislation process and past education reform, it is a very much the product of both parties over many decades.

We have more questions the answers at the moment.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jul 20 15:42:27
requires *a bit more than* "the GOP slashed the budget..."
obaminated
Member
Fri Jul 20 16:32:15
obaminated:

"republicans support following the rules"

i.e. not asking questions?

Lazy response. Following rules has nothing to do with not asking questions. Republicans endorse doing well at school. Period.
werewolf dictator
Member
Fri Jul 20 16:46:50
on tjs link.. ny has easily the most spending per pupil.. yet in 2015 its 8th grade students scored significantly lower than national average on science

http://www...sj=AL&sfj=NP&st=MN&year=2015R3

the two states that spent the absolute least per pupil were utah and idaho.. yet they scored significantly higher than average in science.. actually utah has very lowest spending per pupil as well as very highest science scores
werewolf dictator
Member
Fri Jul 20 16:52:36
if you want to see map of states that closely correlates with 8th grade science scores then look here..

http://www...nes-the-millennial-generation/

there are a few states with few minorities that do surprisingly bad.. arkansas alabama rhode island and new jersey

and a couple states that do surprisingly well.. texas and new jersey

but other than that it is pretty close match
werewolf dictator
Member
Fri Jul 20 16:54:41
the blacks and hispanics doing poor on science would mostly come from pro-hillary families.. i should imagine
werewolf dictator
Member
Fri Jul 20 16:57:05
if idea is conservative gop [and not liberals] is the ones running universities and deliberately making them ridiculously expensive to make people ignorant.. then that’s a conspiracy theory ive never heard before
werewolf dictator
Member
Fri Jul 20 16:59:17
“arkansas alabama rhode island and new jersey“

should say arkansas alabama rhode island west virginia
werewolf dictator
Member
Fri Jul 20 18:26:23
states trump won with over 55% of vote [presumably traditional gop strongholds for long time] with significantly above average naep science scores..

wyoming
north dakota
kentucky
south dakota
tennessee
idaho
nebraska
indiana
missouri
kansas
montana



states trump won with over 55% of vote with significantly below average science scores..

west virginia
alabama
arkansas
mississippi


[no test data for louisiana with 58% trump vote]
werewolf dictator
Member
Fri Jul 20 18:32:14
states hillary won with over 55% of vote with significantly below average science test scores..

california
new york
illinois
hawaii



states hillary won with over 55% of vote with significantly above average science test scores..

massachesetts
vermont
werewolf dictator
Member
Fri Jul 20 18:42:38
[not a state.. but no test data for dc with 90% of vote for hillary]
Williamthebastard
Member
Sat Jul 21 11:45:39
Anyway, trumps betrayal not only of the USA but the entire west will probably lead to a full on EU army, if Trump isnt removed by Nov or by Mueller, a topic I imagine is hot in top level EU meetings now. The framework is already in place and talks of substantive investments are ongoing. That would also increase other countries wish to join the EU and a large army, so well done Trump in creating a new, very significant, formerly allied army that you have declared economic war on
Rugian
Member
Sat Jul 21 11:57:09
It's always so adorable to watch Europeans try and threaten us. You don't intimidate us, WTB.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jul 21 12:55:48
"You don't intimidate us"

This exactly what a _man_ who is intimidated would say :P
hood
Member
Sat Jul 21 13:05:48
"probably lead to a full on EU army"

Just what we need to finally kick the f35 into full gear, get it completed!
hood
Member
Sat Jul 21 13:09:16
"This exactly what a _man_ who is intimidated would say :P"

While I understand y'all joking...

What ya gonna do, invade us? Storming Normandy was insane, and that was just a tiny little channel wherein the ships were only really threatened by beach artillery. Good luck with the Atlantic. Even trying to island hop via greenland/iceland/canada would be catastrophic.
Asgard
Member
Sat Jul 21 13:31:16
Nimi, sadly Seb is right.

Repubs are against:
- smart family (planned parenthood)
- scientific conclusions (i.e. vaccinations, global warming)
- renewable energy
- genetic research

repubs are pro:
- religion (they fund it, but against funding science? is that right in any way? also yet another reason to be against global warming, as religious people believe the climate is the will of god)
- guns (guns are stupid)
- oil industry (hence motivation for being anti global warming facts, and against renewable energy)
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jul 21 14:57:55
And yet the education index ranks the USA 8th, above:
10 United Kingdom
12 Canada
17 Israel
19 Sweden

Is this despite the best attempts of the republicans to keep a large population of plebs?

http://en...._in_the_United_States_2009.png

So the USA has like most other countries on this planet, become more educated, with more people getting college degrees. This has nothing to do with either democrats or republicans btw, it is a trend driven by tech and national wealth levels.

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/party-affiliation/by/state/among/educational-distribution/high-school-or-less/

^Party affiliation of "stupid" people per state. I did not calculate the average, but a quick glance and being nice I would say, equal.

I know we would like to explain/blame the anomaly Trump on something, but it is not the raping of the education system by the republicans. Plenty (millions) of uneducated plebs voted for Obama, twice and then they voted against Hillary/for Trump. Hmm. And this very the big divergence takes place, because the Obama vs Romney election is a whole other story.

http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-2012/

You clearly see that rich people voted for Romney and we know that IQ is a good predictor of income :)
College degrees, where overwhelming liberals study social science and get useless degrees in communication and PhDs in activism, not so much. And btw those kinds of education do wonders inflating the figures in favor of democratsl, but nothing necessarily to help those individuals better navigate the political landscape.

*Don't hold me to the scientific validity of all my claims, but I see no reason to rise above the OP claim. I am just asserting things with more data to back it up.*

Further you also see that overwhelmingly, stupid people voted for Obama. The difference between people with higher education is not nearly as big as the difference in who the stupid people voted for.

The more we scratch on the facile conspiracy theory of WTB, the dumber and less coherent it gets. And I think I have spent too much time as it is explaining why it perfectly fails to describe our reality with any degree of accuracy.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jul 21 15:05:10
Just remember that Democrats/leftist/liberals are the party of the poor and downtrodden, usually not the most educated group. As mentioned earlier, blacks and Hispanics still vote democrat. I think this is largely because of historic events and a sense of tribal loyalty, but that is all changing. Which is natural given that when you ask these groups how they feel on specific issues, it is abundantly clear that a large body of them "should" be voting conservative.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jul 21 15:14:55
"What ya gonna do, invade us? Storming Normandy was insane, and that was just a tiny little channel wherein the ships were only really threatened by beach artillery. Good luck with the Atlantic. Even trying to island hop via greenland/iceland/canada would be catastrophic."

Since you will never build that wall, we will pay the Mexicans to infiltrate you markets with even cheaper labor. Which will lead to more social upheaval and the election of Ivanka Trump as president. Yes the first female US president will be Ivanka Trump and she will destroy your country. I CALLED IT!
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jul 21 15:29:56
Another point Asgard.

Uneducated workers in Sweden used to vote (overwhelmingly and reliably) for the Social democrats, their flight to the Sweden Democrats, then socially conservative "nazi party" has severely diminished the Social democratic party in Sweden 40% -> now polling 20% over a 20 year period.

Did these people get dumber or were they called something in the ballpark of "a basket of deplorables" over and over and over again?
murder
Member
Sat Jul 21 15:33:16

"... but that is all changing."

No it's not.

Williamthebastard
Member
Sat Jul 21 15:40:17
I doubt Normandy is in the plans, and naturally I dont have the slightest idea how to organize a continental army - give me a decade of military school and 2 decades of leadership together with another 10 similar guys and I might be able to . But apparently anyone can take over the USA from the comfort of their couch with a laptop, owning, via social media, the culture first in order to own the popular policies later,,as Gramsci said
Asgard
Member
Mon Jul 23 00:26:37
I'm stumped on Scandinavian politics since the Scandinavian "right" is basically Left, in other countries' standards. The Scandinavian left is basically communism, sans the dictatorship that follows.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jul 23 02:24:51
In their hearts yes, but in reality no. The past is much worse, as it always is. There is a book on this the title translated ”In silent consensus” that describes how Sweden provided monetary support for socialist allies of the Soviets in Africa. It makes a compelling case for the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

I would be center in the USA, here I am ”right”. That is probably an accurate statement. Sweden is extreme in some specific ways, and this is not unique, most cultures are extreme in one way or another, but Swedes generally think they are normal and The norm. But now, now that a lot of foreigners are among them, all these contrasts appear and things are put to the test.

The key take away (imo) is that uneducated people and educated people as far as politics go respond to their own respective bias. Obama and Trump promised the lower class stuff (healthcare, job protection from immigrants). The identitarian left saw the first female president straight after the first black one, the future was theirs. Remember? I remember the discussions here and elsewhere among liberals, the future of GOP presidency was gloom and doom, they were not winning the presidency for the forseeable future. Because women and minority demographics bla bla. Or as jergul does he looks at polling data from college kids and thinks conservatism is dying :) lol it is a sign of intellect, allegedly.
Paramount
Member
Mon Jul 23 02:41:22
"I remember the discussions here and elsewhere among liberals, the future of GOP presidency was gloom and doom, they were not winning the presidency for the forseeable future."



Well, the traditional conservatives did not win the presidency. The GOP was hijacked and they surrendered to the alt-right movement. Do you think we will see a traditional GOP presidency anytime soon?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jul 23 03:52:24
I think the future has never been as unpredictable as now paramount. But there is no reason or good evidence for believing that conservative people are going extinct in society.
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