Utopia Talk / Politics / Game developer vs gaming community

Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jul 13 03:43:35 So I have been playing Guild wars 2 for many years, it is a great game and the only MMO I have kept going back to because it is very casual friendly. So one of Arenanets long time game developers explained on twitter the hurdles of character development in an MMO. A youtuber and official Arenanet partner, politely disagreed. Judging from past videos, the youtuber is a big fan of the dev. At which point she (the developer) bit his (youtuber) head off and accused him of mansplaining game development. He said he was disappointed in her reaction, apologized and retreated. The reaction from the gaming community and the subsequent reactions and ArenaNets firing of the developer (and another one defending her) has more or less made the chips fall where you would expect them in the gender wars. And the gender war over this one, is in _full effect_. I am hesitant to give you a link to any one story, since the shit show is in full swing atm. So go to your own trusted fake news site of choice and get the story you want to hear! IMO, she should not have been fired, she should have been reprimanded, but then again, this developer a month ago was tweeting about how happy she was that John Peter Bain (AKA Totalbiscuit) a game commentator had died from cancer (not the feminism type, but actual real cancer), from what I understand because he was on the opposite side of the gamergate thing that took place a couple of years ago, AKA he spread misogyny. So while I have some understanding for ArenaNet, specially since they makes a big thing of engaging with the community, I would still err on the side of forgiveness in most of these cases.
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 03:53:31 Awesome. I've been playing it and being in the universe since gw1. Jp is an idiot
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 03:57:59 Oh, and I am sure the poster that shall not be named would totally agree she was somehow sexually harassed or whatever nonsense by Deroir.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 05:22:02 I saw this as read in the thread. He basically does that irritating thing where he, knowing nothing, says "hey your job is easy", she dismiss him, he then plays the victim for the crowd, she gets fired. The fact he was polite while playing the victims for a whole thread doesn't mean he wadnt: a. Being a bit dickish and patronising in his original post, b. Goes on to play the victim.
delude Member	Fri Jul 13 05:33:40 LOL, so fucking predictable.
delude Member	Fri Jul 13 05:36:13 Have you actually read the interaction in it's entirety, Seb? Or did you prescribe to the other media outlets that are blatantly one-sided?
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 05:41:57 Delude: Yes. As I said "I saw this as read in the thread". Literally the first thing I said.
delude Member	Fri Jul 13 05:44:29 That is a vague statement and didn't really answer the question. Hence why I asked again to clarify. Because if you saw it from a source you claim you did. It is remarkable that you believe that in someway he came at her playing the victim card originally. Especially since you concluded with "hey your job is easy." In no way did he specify or indicate that at all. Would you like to provide the statements that is causing you make that conclusion? I am sure we would be curious...
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jul 13 06:06:58 https://twitter.com/DeroirGaming/status/1014280605599748096 This is the conversation.
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 06:16:47 http://twitter.com/DeroirGaming/status/1014280605599748096
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jul 13 06:20:15 JP (last tweet in the thread explaining game dev) "The dirty secret is I'm not sure if it's possible to make an MMORPG (or CRPG) character compelling, because people have different expectations about what that character will be, as opposed to a pre-designed character in a single-player game." Deroir Really interesting thread to read! However, allow me to disagree *slightly*. I dont believe the issue lies in the MMORPG genre itself (as your wording seemingly suggest). I believe the issue lies in the contraints of the Living Story's narrative design; (1 of 3) When you want the outcome to be the same across the board for all players' experiences, then yes, by design you are extremely limited in how you can contruct the personality of the PC. (2 of 3) But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express *their* character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), (3 of 4 cause I count seemingly...) then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG. Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread! (End) JP thanks for trying to tell me what we do internally, my dude 9_9 Deroir You getting mad at my obvious attempt at creating dialogue and discussion with you, instead of just replying that I am wrong or otherwise correct me in my false assumptions, is really just disheartening for me. You do you though. I'm sorry if it offended. I'll leave you to it. ------------- The lesson is that, if you have an opinion, shut the fuck up, someone understands the topic better than you.
Rugian Member	Fri Jul 13 06:20:42 Regarding her firing: "The spat began on July 3 when a “Guild Wars” YouTuber called Deroir responded to a Twitter thread by ArenaNet writer Jessica Price about crafting dialogue for playable characters in a massively multiplayer online game. Deroir disagreed with Price and offered his own opinions on how it should be done. Price’s reaction to this criticism seems to be what led to her firing, along with the firing of another ArenaNet writer named Peter Fries, who defended her on Twitter. “Thanks for trying to tell me what we do internally, my dude 9_9,” Price tweeted on July 4. “Today in being a female game dev: Allow me- — a person who does not work with you — explain to you how you do your job,” she added. “Like, the next rando asshat who attempts to explain the concept of branching dialogue to me — as if, you know, having worked in game narrative for a fucking DECADE, I have never heard of it — is getting instablocked. PSA.” Fries jumped in at this point to defend his coworker. “Here’s a bit of insight that I legitimately hope he [Deroir] reflects on: she never asked for his feedback,” he said. (The tweet has since been deleted, but here’s a cached version.) “These are our private social media accounts — imagine you’re an astronomer and you start sharing some things you’ve learned in the last few months since you began a research project observing Saturn, only to have observation techniques explained to you by a layman.” When one Twitter user said he was being “embarrassing,” Fries added, “Today is a national holiday. It is our day off, after working hard for months on our most recent content release. If I’m being embarrassing and unprofessional, it’s because I’m enjoying a beverage in the sun in my backyard and this nonsense is being directed at someone I respect. Jessica is great at her job and deserves to be treated with respect, was the gist of what I was reacting to.” “Since we’ve got a lot of hurt manfeels today, lemme make something clear: this is my feed. I’m not on the clock here. I’m not your emotional courtesan just because I’m a dev. Don’t expect me to pretend to like you here,” Price said later that day. “The attempts of fans to exert ownership over our personal lives and times are something I am hardcore about stopping. You don’t own me, and I don’t owe you.” In the midst of all this, Deroir commented, “In a world where discussions should be encouraged, and not belittled, yet the opposite becomes reality, I’ve apparently found myself in the midst of a war I never intended to partake in. Disappointed. That’s all. #IAmAFeminist.” ---- Maybe they didn't deserve to get fired, but this is a really poor way to represent their company in the public sphere.
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 06:23:37 There is alot more vitriol from her end after that one tidbit. She continued to insult him and generalizing the community and introduced gender issue where it was not brought up before in that dialogue. She went overboard.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jul 13 06:34:09 Indeed she felt she needed to hammer this home when he spewed his hate over her. JP Today in being a female game dev: "Allow me--a person who does not work with you--explain to you how you do your job." Deroir So much for an open discussion I guess. I meant no disrespect AT ALL. Never did. Never will. Neither did I imply I knew better. Nor has this ANYTHING to do with gender. Never did. Never will. I will retract my comment, cause obviously I'm in the wrong forum for this kind of talk. JP "like, the next rando asshat who attempts to explain the concept of branching dialogue to me--as if, you know, having worked in game narrative for a fucking DECADE, I have never heard of it--is getting instablocked. PSA." JP "Ask yourself why he felt the need to do that, though." ----------- Indeed, why why why do people have opinions that they express to the people with the power to change the thing you have opinions about? It is not like the company asked them for their opinions, it is not like her bio clearly stated "Anet developer".
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 06:37:18 Clearly. It wasn't like it could been viewed as an extension from the official gw2 reddit session with developers mere hours before.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jul 13 07:07:57 So another question relevant to this. Why does most media play on the feminist narrative? I don't think this is simply about signaling virtue, everyone does that, it is as with all things rooted in money. 1. There are more women on social media then men. 2. Women to a higher degree use social media for personal things 3. Women react more strongly to negative news. 4. Women share more content and share more often if it invokes emotions Why is the click bait media running the feminists narrative of oppression? It will remain a mystery.
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 07:14:39 I quasi answered that question on the officialforums and brought up more ratings/revenue for readers/viewers for their sites.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 08:30:51 Ok, so my full opinion: 1. Areanet are within their rights to fire her - companies often have strict rules on bringing into disrepute and employers beware. 2. I think her initial reaction, through brusque, is fairly tame and justified frankly. You may differ, but I find his tone condescending and patronising. He's essentially doing this: https://xkcd.com/793/ And yes, his replies are then dripping with patronising victim playing "poor me, my views have been dismissed, she's so rude". I don't think if she had been a man that the crowd would have got so agitated and you only need to look at the reddit and tweets to see very open and blatant misogyny. So while Areanet might not be sexist, this is a fucking great example of how the general sexism in the community results is women who dare to be anything other than meek and compliant get hounded out. But it's probably genetic right? __ "Really interesting thread to read! However, allow me to disagree *slightly*." [Good work young padawan, but you are not yet Jedi] "I dont believe the issue lies in the MMORPG genre itself (as your wording seemingly suggest)." [You are wrong.] "I believe the issue lies in the contraints of the Living Story's narrative design; When you want the outcome to be the same across the board for all players' experiences, then yes, by design you are extremely limited in how you can contruct the personality of the PC But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express *their* character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), (3 of 4 cause I count seemingly...)" then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG." [This thing you said is hard is actually quite easy if you do it the way I suggest - based on my complete lack of experience or expertise in this matter] "Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread!" [So, in conclusion you are wrong, but here, let me pat you on the head]. Her response: "thanks for trying to tell me what we do internally, my dude 9_9" Which is frankly, the tamest response ever. I might have gone with "If I wanted advice from rank amateurs, I would have asked for it". "You getting mad at my obvious attempt at creating dialogue and discussion with you, instead of just replying that I am wrong or otherwise correct me in my false assumptions," How is this anything other than the most pitiful passive aggressive victim playing? It's clear her position is "I am not interested in a dialogue and did not invite you to come assess my view". She's not mad, she's dismissive. But a standard line comming off you alt-right and fellow travellers is this stuff about emotions - you tend to portray those that disagree with you as irrational etc. particularly if they are women. Compare her statement with, say, Feynman's put down to some layperson trying to correct him "If I could explain that to you so you understood it, I would not have won a Nobel prise for it". It's one of his famous bon mots. He's being cheeky, funny chap; not an emotional, angry wreck. Funny that. "is really just disheartening for me." [Poor me, the victim here, of your rudeness! How dare you invalidate me and not engage with me.] "You do you though. I'm sorry if it offended. I'll leave you to it." Do I really need to point out that this is classic passiveagressiveness? Note, he could have responded "Hey, sorry, I didn't mean to come across as correcting you - just floating an idea. Can you explain what you think I'm missing here?". So whose the angry and upset on here? But this guy makes a living playing to the crowd. He knows very well what he is doing: he is saving his face and paying to the crowd. He finishes ultimately with: "In a world where discussions should be encouraged, and not belittled, yet the opposite becomes reality, I've apparently found myself in the midst of a war I never intended to partake in. Disappointed. That's all." How is that not claiming victimhood. He doesn't acknowledge at all that his tone was patronising and condescending, he also had options to walk away far more politely than he did. Politeness is not about just not using cusswords, it's also about tone and manner. Delude: I didn't say "initially". I said his response to her calling him out. Hope that helps.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 08:41:45 Nim wonders why the gender narrative. Firstly, generally, when men do this to other men it passes without comment. Secondly, what led to her being fired was the strength of the fan response, without which it would probably have been a non issue for Arenanet. So if you want to understand the feminist dynamic, you should look at some of the reddit comments... And also, it is frighteningly, depressingly common to see women with a technical background having their specialism explained to them by men with no real knowledge at all. I have literally seen it in meetings in both academia and the public and private settings. Literally last week I had to intervene to get a junior policy guy to pipe down after he rambled on for ten minutes explaining user research to our, erm, lead user researcher that we poached from a major international company in a meeting where we were trying to embed her into their team, that being the entire point of the session. Sure, that's an anecdote, but when you make a conscious effort to look for it my god it is there in spades.
hood Member	Fri Jul 13 08:55:12 The only thing that limits the expressiveness of a player character in an mmo is the laziness of the devs. It's very understandable laziness, as it would take quite a bit of work to really give a full suite of options to the players, but it really is just a matter of time and volume. One should also note that there's no functional gateway to story telling that many professions come with. Just about anyone can tell a story. To suggest that this lady somehow has special knowledge that elevates her above any random schmuck who wants to tell a story is laughable. Great, she tells stories for a living. There's nothing special about that and plenty of laypeople could have a talent for story telling that they've never explored. So, yes, for an employed story teller to get all snippy on a "pleb" wanting to chip in to a debate about story telling is excessive. And in looking at the OP from Price, she's precisely saying that devs write poorly because they're lazy. Yes, what the layperson said is accurate: if devs wanted to, they could write tons and tons of potential dialog options and give players hordes of options for expression. It's entirely reasonable for devs to not do that. If this girl thinks that it's truly not possible, she's pretty unimaginative or pretty retarded.
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 08:57:38 So you're pretending this streamer, an arenanet partner who has a character in the game as an NPC, would not have a ant experience in being a writer or enough insight to respond to a person's public account? Do you know their credentials? Because right now that is the condescending bullshit people and particularly this community doesn't like. You are presenting yourself as her. Let's stop right there. You're not her. And she herself never indicated that he was wrong. So let's get over yourself on that end. And if you are going to say he is wrong. What is about with his perspective? Are you insinuating that he needed some sort of credentials to be able to Express an opinion in a field that he is a partner in? That is the issue with narcissistic ego driven individuals who hold no regard to others. Now we continued with your assessment that he has the opinion of she were a man either 1) a response of that nature would be acceptable or 2) they would be more receptive. In fact, deroir, had a reasonable response. He thought this was an open discussion or dialogue and agreed what she wrote was good, was interesting and in fact encouraging. And he *slightly* had a disagreement or another perspective and offered his input. Now that is somewhat interpreted that due to her being a woman, he can't do that and he had an ulterior motive to put her in her place? That is the sentiment. Let's ignore the fact there are videos of Derior praising her and admiring her for being part of the development and as a writer, and that somehow that is an indication he had any intent to "put her in her place." In fact, he said his part and bowed out. Mistakenly thinking this was open discussion. Playing the victim....in fact he is the victim in this situation. So I think it would be appropriate to label him as the victim. He wasn't rude. He was not condescending with his response and only added to what is, again, perceived as open dialogue to add to he perspective. You continue with your assessment that he could have more apologetic and could have said this instead of that. Role reversed. She could have easily said this was just a thought and not required a response or is a discussion to have at this time. Or ignore. Instead, she took the route, that you are also perpetuating, that it was an attack on her gender. As if her ability has or is in question because she is a woman. She took it as that as she continue to berate him and then generalize the community. At this point as she continued, he had already given up and let her be. But somehow you are want to interject sexism. Where at any point was he sexist or thought she was less than when again he is on recording stating his admiration for her? It's perplexing still you come to this conclusion. But perhaps not so much considering your own personal views and your dishonesty in regards to other peoples perspectives because they conflict with your own. At this point, I haven't given my opinion about her firing and I am withholding it for a specific purpose. But when this story first came out and fun fact, I was there for it from the beginning. I immediately thought of you. Because i knew already your stance you would take. Part me at least was hoping you would see how this particular incident was blown out of proportion. But you Sebbed.
werewolf dictator Member	Fri Jul 13 09:03:40 “Which is frankly, the tamest response ever. I might have gone with "If I wanted advice from rank amateurs, I would have asked for it".” except she was making seperate twitter posts on her main feed attacking him before he responded again in that thread.. — jp “Today in being a female game dev: "Allow me--a person who does not work with you--explain to you how you do your job." [showing and referencing *slightly* tweet by deroir below] 12:59 PM · Jul 4, 2018 — jp “like, the next rando asshat who attempts to explain the concept of branching dialogue to me--as if, you know, having worked in game narrative for a fucking DECADE, I have never heard of it--is getting instablocked. PSA.” PSA. 1:05 PM · Jul 4, 2018 — only after this does he respond in that thread.. Deroir Deroir @DeroirGaming Replying to @Delafina777 You getting mad at my obvious attempt at creating dialogue and discussion with you, instead of just replying that I am wrong or otherwise correct me in my false assumptions, is really just disheartening for me. You do you though. I'm sorry if it offended. I'll leave you to it. 1:41 PM · Jul 4, 2018
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 09:03:54 And Hood is correct. Ironically both JP and Deroir were in an agreement but had slight differences. And she had a fit because she took it as it's because of her gender. Again the narrative your assisting in perpetuation.
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 09:05:05 Werewolf is correct on the timeline.
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 09:11:02 Also fun fact. Why she wrote in her 25 page tweet was actually good and insightful. Buuuut, can't compliment that. Because that is sexist and it is only being said due the impressive content put out by a person who happens to be a woman.
Rugian Member	Fri Jul 13 09:21:52 Also worth pointing out is her response to the firing, in which she drew parallels to Gamergate and claimed she was a victim of gender harassment. http://mob...777/status/1017103133955117056 Ultimately I suppose it comes down to perspective, but there's no reason why gender needed to come into this situation at all. Unfortunately Jessica's perspective appears to be through the prism of being a discriminated-against woman, which meant that she was quick to turn what was a complete non-dispute into yet another battle in the culture wars. If Jessica didn't like what Deroir said she could have brushed it off without claiming that he was targeting her as a woman. That was a completely self-inflicted wound.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Fri Jul 13 09:26:41 if you guys keep this up,zoe quinn and anita sarkessian are gonna jump in here
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 09:32:32 Hood: " If this girl thinks that it's truly not possible" To quote her reply: "thanks for trying to tell me what we do internally," I.e. they do try to do this but it's probably rather more challenging than you may think to get it to actually feel natural without throwing up too much branching responses etc. Delude: I use computers every day of my life. I even have professional relationships with them. I'm not qualified to comment on the complexities of chip designers or tell a chip designer they made an error. Not reading the rest because you are a boring, boring randy person.
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 09:34:52 Oh I understand. My apologies for attempting to dispute and dispelling your preconceived notions because you feel Deroir isn't qualified to have an opinion because of credential issues
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 09:35:32 ..as you were.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 09:38:56 Werewolf: Equally tame. I think he was being an asshat. His post is incredibly condescending. Especially the signoff. "But thank you for your [incorrct] contribution". Come on, he's portraying himself as the leader (she's contributing to a discussion he's chairing). We'd call that "damning with faint praise" in english. Rugian: She was fired because of an angry mob. Do I need to go and get quotes from said angry mobs to show sexism was an intrinsic aspect of that mob, even if you doubt that Detour would have used that tone with a male dev?
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 09:40:21 Delude: Thank you for your insightful contribution. I'm dishartened by your response and so shall leave now. You do you.
hood Member	Fri Jul 13 09:42:02 I find it really fucking hilarious that she cited the use of the mob as the thing that really set her off about the firing. Yeah, because airing your grievances on Twitter isn't the exact same thing. Because there aren't hordes and zounds of examples of mob attacks via social media on all sides of this shit. Or, you know, this: http://mob...a777/status/954251315915341824 Mob, eh? You don't like the use of the mob? You recognize that metoo worked because it was a mob powerful enough to overcome the power held by harassers, right?
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 09:43:37 Ah yes the angry mob argument. Go ahead and post the remarks, you will have the remarks in responses that were critical of them as well. The community is objective enough to tell who the trolls are versus the outright principles that were upheld by arenanet. Did you happen to read that? Probably not. Because amazingly you believe Deroir was the aggressor. Lol
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 09:45:27 "Mob, eh? You don't like the use of the mob? You recognize that metoo worked because it was a mob powerful enough to overcome the power held by harassers, right?" But that's different, hood!
hood Member	Fri Jul 13 09:46:02 "I.e. they do try to do this but it's probably rather more challenging than you may think to get it to actually feel natural without throwing up too much branching responses etc." Yes, that's precisely what I said. Perhaps you should read the words I say ("Yes, what the layperson said is accurate: if devs wanted to, they could write tons and tons of potential dialog options and give players hordes of options for expression. It's entirely reasonable for devs to not do that.") before just assuming I don't recognize that such storytelling would be difficult. To borrow from Price, maybe you should stfu on a topic you're unfamiliar (storytelling)?
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 09:48:23 Http://www.patreon.com/yongyea This person gives a great recap and assessment. Woodenpotatoes on YouTube as well. But I know, too much effort forSeb to gain other insight or perspectives.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 09:50:10 If you really want me to take your post seriously: She wasn't inviting comments, she was clearly posting some thoughts on her craft from a position as a professional. He is welcome to challenge that in an open drum but: 1. If he was interested in a discussion he could have framed it as a question or in more open terms. 2. Even as a challenge he framed it with maximum condescending. 3. When framing a challenge like that, being sumararily dismissed is an outcome to be expected and he could have chosen to handle that with better grace. Seriously, his initial post is the kind of thing one academic with a long and bitter professional rival might say in comments to another seminar. But he's doing it without any standing,and in a setting where he has no right to expect a response. Now you can try and unlock that if you like but it's the way many reasonable people see it. And his reaction is frankly a bit disgraceful and pathetic. You can't be all "open forum I have a right to tell you your position is wrong" and then go "oh noes, poor me, am disheartened". And if he really didn't want a fight he might have considered calling off his followers as other high profile people have done in similar spats rather than "thanking them for their support". But yeah, he's totally playing the victim.
Rugian Member	Fri Jul 13 09:51:04 She, Again, that was a door that she opened, not the other way around. Even if she thought Deroir's comments were patronizing, there are a number of ways to respond that don't result in her losing her job. "@Deroir thanks for your response, obviously we'd ideally like to have the time and resources to development such complexities in our games, but given the practical constraints of project timelines that's often simply not possible." If you're going to act as a public spokesperson for your company (as she was doing), you have to be capable of being diplomatic. "Fuck off, I'm a pro and you're not" and "this guy is an asshat because he offered his two cents to a woman" is the polar opposite of that. Frankly, she doesn't come off as a very nice person in general.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 09:53:58 Hood: You said: "if this girl thinks that it's truly not possible". Its clear she's saykng its possible but challenging. So why pose the question above? --- Christ guys, look how angry and rude you guys get when I tell you you are wrong. Yet strangely you don't fault yourselves the way you fault this dev.
Rugian Member	Fri Jul 13 09:54:02 Seb, "She wasn't inviting comments, she was clearly posting some thoughts on her craft from a position as a professional." On Twitter. A platform built on the concept of inviting comments. Sorry, but that doesn't fly.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 09:55:26 Come on, let's be honest, when elon musk blows off some criticism on Twitter the way this dev does, many people think it's awesome.
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 09:59:08 "She wasn't inviting comments, she was clearly posting some thoughts on her craft from a position as a professional." Ah yes this argument again. 1) she describes herself as said professional and and Arenanet developer she extended thoughts on a topic that was an extension of a previous session sanction by Anet on reddit. 2) she is using Twitter, a social media forum that anyone can Express unless she put specific permissions in place. "Seriously, his initial post is the kind of thing one academic with a long and bitter professional rival might say in comments to another seminar." Anyone with common sense can unilaterally agree his initial response is in no way condescending, rude, or eludes to sexism. Even the publications out there are avoiding to present it as that. So it is inherently compelling from your end to even insinuate that. Shots were fired from her end. Because she felt that he wasn't even in her league to even have an opinion. Much like how you presented yourself in regards to the topic. Again, playing the victim. Because he is a victim, being wrongfully accused of being a sexist by her as she continued to berate him after he removed himself.
Rugian Member	Fri Jul 13 10:02:15 Seb Member Fri Jul 13 09:55:26 Come on, let's be honest, when elon musk blows off some criticism on Twitter the way this dev does, many people think it's awesome And a bunch of people think he's an asshole. Difference is, nobody's firing Elon Musk when he calls reporters stupid.
hood Member	Fri Jul 13 10:04:06 Seb, did you read her Twitter posts? http://mob...777/status/1014235241811021824 She says she doesn't think it's possible and provides an argument supporting that position. I don't think it's clear that she's arguing "it would be too much work," based on that thread of posts. She seems to be making the argument that it just isn't possible. I am willing to leave it up to potential misinterpretation because she wasn't as direct as I'd like to make a full assertion of her claim, so I hedged a bit based on that uncertainty.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 10:05:33 Rugian: It's a micro blogging site. Originally status updates. So no, it does not follow any post someone makes is *entitled* to a response just because it's Twitter. Nor does it make him her equal on the subject. Context matters and she's totally entitled to blow him off. It's not *that* he commented, it's how and what he posted.
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 10:07:31 And how did he respond. How about you post whatever she said in its entirety. The 25 post tweet. And his post and let's compare...
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 10:09:00 And this whole elitism thing you got going quite telling.
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 10:09:26 *is quite telling.
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 10:15:35 Apologies to good, as he did post it.
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 10:15:41 Hood*
hood Member	Fri Jul 13 10:17:58 "Come on, let's be honest, when elon musk blows off some criticism on Twitter the way this dev does, many people think it's awesome." Musk doesn't call the reporter out for "reportersplaining" or insinuate that the reporter is only criticizing Musk because the reporter is a racist against Africans or some nonsense. Musk just says that the reporter doesn't know what they're talking about and leaves it at that. Price went straight into gender problems over being exposed to an alternate opinion.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 10:36:22 Hood: She is saying that she *isn't sure* it's possible to write a compelling MMORPG. This isn't *exactly* the same as saying it's impossible. This is usually the kind of semantic difference you'd try and beat me up over. Deroir says essentially "You are wrong, do branching dialogue". That's pretty facile. It's heavily implied they try to do that to the extent it's possible. But consider reactions. Basic maths shows this becomes very hard and very complex very quickly as you then need to have each npc have a set of responses and to feel authentic, remember the "relationship" for future encounters. You'd never really cover the full breadth of possible characters players have in mind. This isn't laziness, it's about practicality. I think trying to execute this to the full extent would likely lead to jarring edge cases thatvwpuld make the character not that compelling. The tech might catch up when NLP becomes a cheap, robust online service. So, yeah, she's not saying it's impossible. She's saying to the extent you can do it, it's insufficient to make the character truly compelling. And if you think about it, the case is pretty strong.
Dukhat Member	Fri Jul 13 10:38:21 This is what fucking retards spend time talking about. A fucking edgelord youtuber versus a feminazi developer. Put them both in a gas chamber and be done with it.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 10:42:01 Incidentally, I rather think the thrust of her post is about the techniques they use to provide an acceptable experience and the consequences. It's expositional. "Hey guys, so as a researcher in nuclear fusion let me tell you a bit about how we make tokamaks work and why we will never have them on spaceships". If someone comes along and says "well, let me disagree, what if we make them really small and light? Thanks for your contribution." I'm going to rip the piss out of them. If they say "But what if we make them really light" then I'll explain why that's not possible, despite our best efforts.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jul 13 10:45:48 ^Just when things couldn’t get anymore retarded, our hero appears!
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 10:46:36 Delude: How do you think her original thread changes things here? Hood: Elon musk is actually quite rude and dismissive, and doesn't get random strangers explaining batteries and rockets to him nearly as much as most technical women get their field explained to them by rank amateurs. And when he rips the piss out of them, twiterverse generally cheers rather than moans.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jul 13 10:47:06 Telling a story is like a nuclear reactor!
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jul 13 10:47:56 Telling a story is like rocketscience!
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 10:50:10 How? Because it can be established what she said originally. Which was not condescending, and was insightful and a good read. Where many of us that is part of the community agreed it was. And deroir's where we equally thought it was good and not adversarial. However, in your world. He is a she hating anything you can do I can do better. And again how in the world you come to this conclusion is beyond anyone's reason.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 10:56:05 Rugian: I agree that firing her was within arenanets rights. Personally, i wouldn't have because fuck the idiot. I would have asked her to tone it down even if it's a personal account off the clock. But hey, that's me. She *could* have been polite, but given his incredible rudeness in his first post, I think her response was entirely justified, if something of a CLA. The question is why was it a CLA... because a giant Twitter mob got angry for her not accommodating this Deroir fellows giant raging ego, many of which when you look in redit are clearly being quite sexist, and many I bet who would cheer on a male dev dismissing a female games journo in exactly the same situation. A lot of geek fandom culture is based on knowing obscure details about the thing being followed. The more known, the higher status. Many men in such cultures dislike Female experts for precisely this reason I rekon. Recall the study about male gamers reactions to female ones broken down by the female players relative performance.
hood Member	Fri Jul 13 10:57:37 "I'm not sure if it's possible" "And essentially, we have to write the player character in an MMO/RPG the same way." "most of their lines have to be pretty devoid of personality." "We can't even have THEM directly characterize the Commander." "Which makes writing the NPCs' relationships with the PC basically like writing horoscopes. It has to feel specific and personal while actually being universal." She says she isn't sure it's possible, and then as per the selected quotes I've added, she goes into detail of why she thinks it may be impossible. I don't know why you think you can just mansplain her opinions in better detail than the well preserved Twitter thread that detailed her opinion. She makes it seem like making full PC characters in an RPG is impossible without fully dedicating to the stance. As such, I did not give her full credit for that and hedged with "if this is what she thinks." I am not attempting to assume I know her mind, as you are, just reacting to one pretty straightforward interpretation of her post. "So, yeah, she's not saying it's impossible." Despite using definitive words like "can't" and explaining the process you "have" to follow. Note she doesn't actually make reference to it just being really difficult or time consuming, she says she isn't sure if it's possible. Anyway, you're just doing your usual thing of refusing to understand the meanings of words and twisting them to mean what you want them to mean. I'm done here. My point is made.
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 10:57:46 Why are you introducing a totally unrelated concept to story character writing. Especially to a community where they actually play the game and invested and most probable have some insight. And pretend that some who are playing the game are not in the industry themselves or pretend automatically they dont have any credentials to begin with. That is a disconnect from your end. Because of your presumptions, just like her presumptions and then introduce unrelated subjects. So you're repeating her actions. *thumbs up*
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jul 13 11:02:47 Scary how full of shit people can get when they have the ”right values”.
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 11:03:05 "but given his incredible rudeness in his first post, I think her response was entirely justified," Lol even the heavily biased publications for her side of this story disagrees with that assessment.
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 11:05:09 Deroir's giant raging ego? Have you even seen any of his streams or other outlets? Lol wow.
Rugian Member	Fri Jul 13 11:12:30 Seb, Again, even if we concede his alleged condescension, everything that followed was her own doing. If she thought that this nobody was talking out of his league, she had several optipns: 1. Ignore the posts altogether 2. Provide a terse but polite response 3. Tell him to fuck off and put him on ignore (not recommended, but it is an option). Any one of those reactions would in and of themselves not have snowballed into what happened. Instead, she followed up, and followed up again, and turned the dispute into a "woman have it so bad" crusade. None of that was necessary and it was virtually guaranteed to trigger a large counterraction. I wouldn't say she should have been fired so much as warned to tone it down going forward, but if we're going to call him an idiot then she more than deserves that title as well.
Rugian Member	Fri Jul 13 11:17:37 Dukhat is a homosexual. That is all.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jul 13 11:36:52 In the other thread seb said, ”If you can’t explain something someone else, you don’t understand it” In this thread seb said, ”If I could explain it to you I wouldn’t habe won a noble prize” The rules change rapidly in Retardistan.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 11:53:57 Hood: She's saying she isn't sure compelling characterisation is possible for pcs. She doesn't go into the detail of why the kind of branching dialogue isn't possible as a solution. But: 1. It's an obvious thing to try and to assert it's the solution is like someone suggesting "oh, fusion space ships are easy, you just make tokamsks light and small". Doing so in a massively condescending tone invites dismisal. 2. It's pretty obvious why this won't work: you need to know at least say, 80% (invoking praeto principle out of my ass) whatever % of the audiences characterisation, and then write appropriate script. This will as pointed out lead to exponential complexity and much greater need for npcs to "rememver" prior context in order to give a context appropriate response. If you don't contextualize npc response, I'm pretty sure it will break immersion and be uncompelling. 3. The UI for say, three types or responses with say, three characterisation each... yuck! So yeah I think deroirs approach is probably impractical and obviously so. Which means yeah, it's not possible to make compelling characters. Time and budget material constraints. Is Deroir aware of successful implementations of this approach? If not, how can he say she's wrong? A less co descending approach here: "would branching dialogue based on characterisation work? has anyone tried to this approach? If so how did it pan put?". No Hood, there's no misunderstanding here. Grow up. Delude: Ok. Fine. "I've seen a lot of plays so I can totally tell Shakespeare how to write a script". Happy now? Deroirs profile is public - I dont think we can pretend that he might have experience in writing games. 're rude, can't comment on others views but it really is. If a peer spoke to me like that it would be as close as you can get in a professional setting to a call out. And Yes, raging ego, given his passive aggressive whining thereafter. Rugian: I don't really follow your argumrnt. She was fired ultimately because raging Twitter mob who are furious about her being rude to someone demanded it. If *she* is responsible for their predictable response, why isn't Deroir responsible for her predictable response or the mobs? I agree, Arenanet are able to legitimately fire her. But I don't like or think it is great as a society a Twitter mob can get someone fired for putting down a condescending aresehole. Comparing this to people getting sacked for sexual harassment or more serious abuse is a category error. And as I said, I think in general you are hard pressed to find examples of male devs or similar techies hounded out for brusquely dismissing unfounded technical critiques. I mean, that was Steve Jobs entire MO to criticism. Indeed, the whole "rockstar misanthrope expert dev" is generally celebrated and tollerated if it's a man. For example, do you think Dr House would work with a female lead? Or would that character the be thought of as far more unlikable to the audience. And yeah, I've literally seen it in the software industry - women do have it bad. I still don't understand where this passionate belief they don't comes from.
hood Member	Fri Jul 13 12:10:17 "So, yeah, she's not saying it's impossible." "Which means yeah, it's not possible to make compelling characters. Time and budget material constraints." Make up your mind, cuntrag. Is it impossible or not?
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 12:41:00 "Ok. Fine. "I've seen a lot of plays so I can totally tell Shakespeare how to write a script"." So you're stating that people who participate in such endeavors are incapable of actually being involved in the industry? You are aware he is a arenanet partner and content creator? "re rude, can't comment on others views but it really is. If a peer spoke to me like that it would be as close as you can get in a professional setting to a call out. And Yes, raging ego, given his passive aggressive whining thereafter. " Raging ego because he provided an opinion that was not adversarial. Please specify the response that was made that was demonstrating his 'raging ego' to her response. We are not talking about the exchanges after, that she initiated. Her insightful post and his post that 'slightly' disagreed. Where was that raging ego? This is rhetorical because we already know giving his opinion was the very thing that you consider his ragin ego. How dare he respond to an arenanet developer whose company's mission is being proactive with their community.
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 13:01:26 Oh, and even very prior to the incident, I will stress this again. His expression of admiration and being a hug fan of hers goes against the whole "raging ego" thing.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 13:18:51 Hood: She's saying she's not sure it's possible to make compelling characterisation for PC. I'm saying Deroirs approach is flawed and not possible to implement to the degree that it would solve any problems. Two different things, two different people. Shouldnt be too hard to grasp old bean. Delude: No. I'm saying he's a rando. It might turn put he's some savant game designer. Just like I've never written a play, watched a lot of theatre, so might just turn out to be the next Tom Stoppard if I put my hand to it. Who knows? But we can agree it's unlikely right? But generally commenting on a thing doesn't make you an expert practitioner and there's no reason to particularly think he has skills, and his idea seems pretty dumb from me just thinking through implementation. Hes no more part of the industry, really, than a sports commentator is an athlete. At least many of those have actually had a career as an athlete! So no, I don't think there's any reason to think he is her peer. Of course his opinion was adversarial. He said she was wrong and offered an approach (which is obviously flawed) that would resolve the problem in the most condescending manner possible. The raging ego is *after* she dismissed him. He's clearly butt hurt. If he's a fan, why is he portraying himself in his post not as a peer, but an expert correcting her? Come on, are you guys serious?
smart dude Member	Fri Jul 13 13:19:13 Seb to the rescue!
Aeros Member	Fri Jul 13 13:34:19 This vapid count needs to shut up before she gets sued.
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 13:48:05 "No. I'm saying he's a rando" A rando who is an arenanet partner and arenanet created him as a character in the game. Yep. Must be rando. " It might turn put he's some savant game designer. Just like I've never written a play, watched a lot of theatre, so might just turn out to be the next Tom Stoppard if I put my hand to it. Who knows? But we can agree it's unlikely right? " To you maybe. Except to those who are familiar with him. For example, me or nim possibly, can safely say considering his contributions and having a fucking NPC named after him in the game and us telling you would lead to a conclusion that isn't some "rando" and someone has some publish content. Again on gw2 wiki he is a "content creator." This gives him credibility and credentials and that is something which you refusing to yield for whatever reason. ( already know what the reason is but still) "But generally commenting on a thing doesn't make you an expert practitioner and there's no reason to particularly think he has skills, and his idea seems pretty dumb from me just thinking through implementation. Hes no more part of the industry, really, than a sports commentator is an athlete. At least many of those have actually had a career as an athlete!" Hey you play a musical instrument but you're no way like that artist who is signed by a label. Though you're a virtuoso and very talented, but since you're not signed or understand musical theory. You're way below the threshold. His idea was not considered "dumb" and follows what JP said with a slight modification to present an idea or food for thought. Just because you think its dumb, before I address this, what background do you in mmorpg storytelling to say that his idea is dumb? See how that works? You expressed an opinion. Especially about a gaming company and individuals that you know little about. So should we automatically dismiss every comment you've made this far? So this point you're making really does not hold up. In fact if we are going by your standards, nimatzo should not have created this thread in the first place. "So no, I don't think there's any reason to think he is her peer" But is a customer then and she went against the company's mission statement. "Of course his opinion was adversarial. He said she was wrong and offered an approach (which is obviously flawed) that would resolve the problem in the most condescending manner possible. " Could you point how that he said she was wrong? A disagreement does not equate that he is wrong. It can mean I have another idea, maybe consider this? So having an opinion is condescending, is that what is being established. Saying "allow me to disagree slightly" is condescending. Interesting. "The raging ego is *after* she dismissed him. He's clearly butt hurt." Oh, so you agree he didn't have a ego to begin with. So her attack was unwarranted? "If he's a fan, why is he portraying himself in his post not as a peer, but an expert correcting her? Come on, are you guys serious?" He never touted being an expert. He gave an opinion. Arenanet encourages its employees to interact with this community, which he is part of, as I've demonstrated previously multiple times. And in what way was he correcting her and claiming she is outright wrong instead of offering a different perspective? It is like you think people in their professional fields do not exchange ideas with others that they my not work with. And if that is your attitude. I am going to quote what hood said earlier; "unimaginative." To believe that is a concept that cannot occur is foolish and immature. No room to grow and to accept other ideas. You for the history of this forum has chastised, announced, and espoused to everyone about being open minded and progressive. But we are short-sighted, angry, uppity, and regressive. But in this very instant for someone to post an opinion in an attempt to have an open discussion, regardless of it is a bad idea or good idea and automatically dismiss them and attack them. And goes against the very principles to which you supposedly stand for is rather hypocritical, yeah?
Forwyn Member	Fri Jul 13 13:56:35 Seb's armor is so white that its privilege triggers Cuckhat. Also lol at this gem: "I even have professional relationships with them. I'm not qualified to comment on the complexities of chip designers or tell a chip designer they made an error." Comparing dialogue crafting to hard science. rofl
Delude Member	Fri Jul 13 14:09:48 Also, She started her tweet with this; "Since I spent all kinds of time saying it on Reddit AMA, and I haven't talked about actual game dev on Twitter in a while, here's a thread about writing for PC character in an MMO." She establishes a few things. 1) would be reasonable to say this is a extension of the reddit session. Which AreneNet does regularly after a patch or living story is released. And the dev's interact and have open discussion with the community. 2) she is making an offer of a thread to the public which can also insinuate lets still have an open discussion. 3) and it's an open public forum that she has control to block comments, ignore comments, or if she chooses to engage with a community member she still repping the company. In that very first paragraph. I would be hard pressed to find that she is closing herself off from the public to only Express her lingering thoughts about an aspect of game development. And you have a member, again, who is well respected and known in the community. Again having an NPC created and named after you expression an opinion to a piece that as written and can be argued was as insightful and was an invitation to have a discussion. And wasn't which is universally shared opinion by the community as well as the media agreeing that he was polite and not condescending. As you claim and somehow can't pinpoint the break down of that. Gives her no right to attack his character and claim he was being sexist and ridiculing her for her gender. Are you able to point that out too? Or will you seb?
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 15:27:35 Delude: How does being a retail partner and a character in the game make him qualified to comment on the complexities of building one? This does not make him a peer. He's just a random guy making a highly condescending comment as though he thinks of himself as an authority. I really don't know what to say then. Ok, so he's cracked game design, why doesn't he go and make a game incorporating his ideas then? Forwyn: I think you missed the point where I said it was fine she got sacked. What I don't find fine is how idiotic you lot are. "Comparing dialogue crafting to hard science." It's not crafting dialogue though is it. It's also an acceptable user interface, and a highly complex set of interacting decision trees that need to be coded up, and the whole thing integrated in a way that feels and provides the experience of a compelling character - on time, to budget, and without consuming too much processor power in the background. Which is, you know, a bunch of technical skills. For example: Lets say you have n interactions which lead to branching choices. Lets say 2 substantive options that drive game progress with each interaction, with each interaction has the PC and NPC saying two lines each. Now lets say you code up say, four different characterisations for each of those (In reality way more than four, but lets do the old chestnut of good/evil chaotic/lawful - but as we are trying to give an immersive experience the pallet needs to be infinite) With "no" characterisation you n*(2^4) possible permutations. When you add 4 characterizations for those interaction, suddenly you are looking at n*(2^4)^4. Of course, that gives me the opportunity to switch characterization with every response, so perhaps we can get rid of some of those options... but getting all of that to work in a way that would likely result in many players felt they are being forced into a character they don't like rather than actually having the freedom to personalise the interaction. Hence, the best solution is to try and vanilla it and let the player project as much as possible. This is absolutely a technical challenge.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 15:29:08 Delude: Btw, yes, she was rude to a customer. So its fine to be fired. But I think the mob response wasn't really about "oh my god you were rude to a customer", and actually most people in that circumstance wouldn't be sacked if it hadn't been for the mob. The guy was a total bellend. A bit like you really.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 15:34:24 Re desperately trying to read her thread as being a call for a discussion rather than "here's some things about how we handle the challenge of characterisation", fine you do you delude. I'm sure if you stand from the right angle, squint etc. you can find a way. But his response *even if he felt it was up for discussion* was patronising and rude in any circumstance - even if he had been a peer. It's couched in the tone an established expert might say to someone relatively new professionally. Which, unless he's actually written any games, he ain't. No matter what title Arenanet have bestowed upon him. End of. Boo hoo, yes, call me elitest. I call it meritocratic. His comment was rather dumb as anyone who has coded branching logic knows, let along having to put content to it and figure a user interface for a squillion options.
Paramount Member	Fri Jul 13 15:41:12 Guild Wars and Gender Wars. I’m too old for that shit. Gonna wait for Elder Scrolls 6. Have u seen the trailer on youtube?
delude Member	Fri Jul 13 15:45:38 "How does being a retail partner and a character in the game make him qualified to comment on the complexities of building one?" So what qualifications must you have now to post on a social media site, seb? Is that what it's turning into. You're a real nut. Point, since you want to bring up qualifications and credentials, I think it would suffice that he has every right to give an opinion aabout a game he is dedicated to as well, as being acknowledge enough for the company to spend money to incorporate him in a game. The fuck are you smoking? And besides even if he didn't have that as some 'credentials' because that is your focus right, must have some sort of credentials to be able to respond to the almighty "god dev" it shouldn't matter. He has every right to respond to an open fucking forum. "This does not make him a peer. He's just a random guy making a highly condescending comment as though he thinks of himself as an authority. " It is very well established in the community he wasn't exactly "random" nor have you been able to point out exactly how he was condescending without providing your claim he outright said she was wrong. If telling a peer, colleague, or partner, they are wrong about something, or presenting a different idea or approach is condescending. You must be a hoot to work with. "I really don't know what to say then. Ok, so he's cracked game design, why doesn't he go and make a game incorporating his ideas then? " How do you know he hasn't or is not, or in the process, have you seen his resume? All you know specifically is that he is a gamer/streamer/youtuber that apparently has contributed enough to be considered a partner as well as other acknowledgements. But this is ridiculous on what standards you are declaring he should have in order to even make a post. "But I think the mob response wasn't really about "oh my god you were rude to a customer", and actually most people in that circumstance wouldn't be sacked if it hadn't been for the mob. " I'll reference hood. So mob is bad in getting results if it involves female. But mob is good to witch hunt someone who had a bad date and demonized them as some sort of sexual predator. Hyperbole, but you are the king of those. The mob hasn't had anything to do with it. Have you read the official response by the CEO that relates as to why she and PF were fired? I can present to you numerous instances of inappropriateness by game developers that used their social media sites that got them fired and there was no mob mentality pushed for it. And it doesn't even have to be a mob mentality for that. There are unknown variables in this particular situation. There could have been other instances before this event took place that she was already on thin ice, as well as the other dev that was canned. But you cannot sit there and say, that this one particular instance that mob had anything to do with it when she previously wished or basically celebrated the death of another person in the same field. That was panned, that was ridiculed, she still had a job. Perhaps she was reprimanded or not. But that establishes her more of a disingenuous and immoral character, versus the "rando" who added an opinion, politely, which everyone else in the field agrees it was, but you. (you're not in the field, so I guess your opinion doesn't matter right, but you still comment.) He is the villain by your standards, but cannot be the victim.
delude Member	Fri Jul 13 15:47:33 "as patronising and rude in any circumstance - " How? This has been asked, how was it? You haven't established that. What did he say exactly to her that was so condescending and insulting to her? What is it, Seb?
delude Member	Fri Jul 13 15:50:33 "Boo hoo, yes, call me elitest. I call it meritocratic. His comment was rather dumb as anyone who has coded branching logic knows, let along having to put content to it and figure a user interface for a squillion options. " So you admit that you must have a degree of credibility to have any opinion. That is your standard. Okay, I think UP should established an array of subjects and you post your resume so we know where we can dismiss you because you have no particular experience, expertise, or anything that be construed as relatable. Make it a lot easier for the rest of the forum. Made you can go find a new hobby instead of coming here pretending that you are an expert on every subject imaginable. Call me elitist but we tired for pseudo-intellectuals that are actually full of shit. Fair, aye?
delude Member	Fri Jul 13 15:51:19 Maybe* you can go find a new hobby...
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 16:20:12 delude: You can post whatever the fuck you like on social media site. I'm not sure what you think that has to do with anything. I'm saying that when you write something like that to someone who is clearly a professional with expertise in a condescending manner and suggesting you have the solution (not "what about this") but "This works so I disagree with you", and your sole claim to fame is being a glorified mascot - you can expect that kind of response. Lets say, oh, i don't know, Steven Spielberg does a little thread on some technical aspect of directing and producing films, and I come along and say "Nah mate, you've got it all wrong, you just need to point the camera at the actors. See, if you did it that way, you'd have it licked. But thanks for your insightful contribution mate." and my claim to expertise was "I've watched a lot of films right, so directing them can't be that hard". I think generally, people would laugh at me, and if Steven Spielberg were to respond with a rather dry comment about it, I think people would be rather forgiving. *Even* If I had a youtube channel where I have a bit of a following as a film critic. You seem to be arguing that because he was established in the gaming community he isn't some random guy. But, from a games development perspective, he is. He's just some guy. With no experience of making games. A rando. Is this really that hard a concept for you to grasp? He is not a peer. His views were asinine and expressed in a deeply patronizing and therefore insulting way. " If telling a peer, colleague, or partner," He is none of those things. And if telling a peer, colleague or partner they were wrong I would probably phrase my initial challenge in the form of a question, and I would not finish off with "But thank you for your contribution" which implies that I get to decide whether my peer, colleague of partners contribution is valid. And if I am having a professional disagreement it would be with reference to evidence and argument which he doesn't really do. He just asserts an opinion. "How do you know he hasn't or is not," There is no evidence to suggest he has, is, or that he is claiming to. Occam's razor. I look forward to him producing his game and showing branching dialogue solves the problem, and when he does I will happily eat humble pie with the caveat that at the time he spoke, he put forward no real indepth argument as to how his approach would actually work in practice in a way that was implementable so it was pretty reasonable, given his complete absense of track record, to accuse him of talking total shit. Lets continue the conversation when he does that yeah? "So mob is bad in getting results if it involves female. But mob is good to witch hunt someone who had a bad date and demonized them as some sort of sexual predator." i could flip it around - you are not criticising the mob here, you are supporting it. But if you want my point of view, yeah, it rather matters what the mob is doing. Here, there is a mob of people who are angry because a woman rudely called out an obviously knowledgeable guy who some of them like, and others - well I outline why I think a fairly large number of male gamer's feel threatened by female expertise. And they thing she did, while bad for business (so her business can fire her, yes), was totally justified and reasonable. A mob hounding out someone who has committed sexual harassment doesn't seem a problem to me other than the situation where there is doubt as to whether it happened. If you recall, my point on Aziz Ansari was entirely based on whether the facts as reported constitute sexual assault, not whether he was guilty or whether it was right to harass him online as a result. Again, not too hard a concept to follow. "Have you read the official response by the CEO that relates as to why she and PF were fired? " Yes, and I've read her account of the meeting in which she was personally fired by the CEO and how we went on about Reddit. So, you know, draw your own conclusions if you like but I seriously doubt it would have even come to his attention were it not for the mob of men angry at the uppity woman pointing out she knows more about games design than gamers and their champions. "I can present to you numerous instances of inappropriateness by game developers" I'm sure you can. In a world of 6 billion people there's pretty much an example of most things. But generally, when a rank am amateur calls out a professional and the male professional dismisses it, it doesn't result in a twitter shit storm. "He is the villain by your standards, but cannot be the victim." You can keep saying his "opinion" was polite, but I'm affraid that is nonsense. It wasn't even an opinion. He didn't say "I think x,y,z, can you comment on that?". He set out to directly explain why she was wrong, and he did so in a way dripping with condescension. It was rude as fuck. And those are not in-depth technical comments so don't require expertise. Everyone in the industry eh? https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/6/17540382/guild-wars-2-developers-fired-arenanet "Other game developers lashed out at ArenaNet on Twitter, saying that the developer didn’t support its employees. “Here I thought being indie meant I was on-the-clock 24/7,” said Rami Ismail, one half of developer Vlambeer, on Twitter, “but apparently AAA means just that but also being forced to take whatever shit people fling at you because ‘standards of communicating with our community’ and ‘we make the game for you (so feel free to give our devs shit)’." etc. And no, no misognyny at all.... https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-07-13-in-the-wake-of-the-arenanet-firings-women-game-devs-are-experiencing-a-new-wave-of-online-harassment
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 16:27:13 "hat did he say exactly to her that was so condescending and insulting to her? What is it, Seb?" I've annoted the twitter thread between them both above in this thread. Go check it out. "So you admit that you must have a degree of credibility to have any opinion." In a technical subject, you can have whatever opinion you like but if you straight up tell an expert they are wrong in a,b,c *BECAUSE* in your *OPINION* x,y,z and you actually have no knowledge, skills or track record in the area - well you deserve to get called out on that. You are not going to have anyone *respect* you or your opinion. So yeah, I can have an opinion on, oh, monetary policy. And if I can back it with good arguments and citations I think it would be unreasonable to respond "bog off". But if I were to straight up tell one of the senior officials in the bank of England handling monetary policy, say, that he or she is *wrong* because in my opinion x,y,z - without any supporting evidence or substantial logical reasoning, that's a very different proposition. I hope you can see that, but I guess probably not. You go be you.
hood Member	Fri Jul 13 16:32:19 "It's not crafting dialogue though is it. It's also an acceptable user interface, and a highly complex set of interacting decision trees that need to be coded up, and the whole thing integrated in a way that feels and provides the experience of a compelling character - on time, to budget, and without consuming too much processor power in the background." And this is how we know that Seb is not qualified enough to talk about this topic, as per his own standards. Anyone who is part of the storyboarding or writing is not going to need technical skills. They will have engineers that design or implement any new requirement within a design software that makes it relatively intuitive to craft progressive dialog. Otherwise it would be pretty difficult to find someone who can both code and write dialog proficiently. The interface has already been made because this is an existing game and not a brand new one. Even then, the interface would not be the job of the story writers, it would again be the job of the engineers. So basically, seb is crafting all sorts of uninformed bullshit in the exact manner he is accusing the streamer of doing and thinks he's justified. Seb is the physicist in the xkcd he posted. And he doesn't get it.
delude Member	Fri Jul 13 16:55:57 "I'm not sure what you think that has to do with anything. " Because you intolerable test tube baby, you introduced the concept of qualifications he must have in order for him to post in response to her thread. So it is of no consequence now? Make up your fucking mind. "in a condescending manner and suggesting you have the solution " What is the condescending manner, seb, what was so totally inappropriate? What is it, you keep avoiding this, what the fuck is it he said that was so condescending? His mere presence and lack of credentials? ". But, from a games development perspective, he is. He's just some guy. With no experience of making games. A rando. " How do you know this, seb? Would you know he goes to a university that his degree is in game design? Would you know he is a graduate, do you have his linkden? You've seen his resume perhaps? Maybe he has written papers associated with his studies and such? Maybe there are some degree of experiences that you and I do not know about. OOOH, that's right. He needs to wear it as a merit badge so we know. The point is, that you want to ignore, which is fine. Ignore it all you want. Doesn't take away from the point. He isn't exactly what you consider some "rando" person. To you, yes. To her, not so much. I find it particularly hard to fathom that a developer at a company would not know a specific person is an actually character on their game. "His views were asinine and expressed in a deeply patronizing and therefore insulting way. " How? Again, asked, how? No one else has thought this. Would like you like to see the major publications that agree he was not being that at all; despite the fact they are heavily favoring her because of gender issues? "And if I am having a professional disagreement it would be with reference to evidence and argument which he doesn't really do. He just asserts an opinion. " An opinion that doesn't shut her down, which you claimed it did and you have yet provided where it told her she was wrong and she should stop doing her job, and that what she does doesn't matter because she is a woman. Still waiting, fucknut. "There is no evidence to suggest he has, is, or that he is claiming to. Occam's razor. I look forward to him producing his game and showing branching dialogue solves the problem, and when he does I will happily eat humble pie with the caveat that at the time he spoke, he put forward no real indepth argument as to how his approach would actually work in practice in a way that was implementable so it was pretty reasonable, given his complete absense of track record, to accuse him of talking total shit." Here we go again, so then you think it would be fair to say that ArenaNet when they have their AMA reddit sessions, should not engage anyone from the public, as they normally do upon patch or living story releases, because some or majority don't have the proper credentials to engage and shouldn't have opinions. Oh how great that will work out huh? "f you like but I seriously doubt it would have even come to his attention were it not for the mob of men angry at the uppity woman pointing out she knows more about games design than gamers and their champions. " Factually wrong. They new of the exchange before the "mob" expressed their discontent. And in their statement, if you claim you read it. Stated that the timing may appear they were responding to that but they were already upset about the exchange anyways due to it not fitting their principles. But we know your character and how it works. We'll just leave it at that. "But generally, when a rank am amateur calls out a professional and the male professional dismisses it, it doesn't result in a twitter shit storm. " Establish calling them out? You have yet to present this, this is a recurring theme here. You make this claim but provide no substance. "You can keep saying his "opinion" was polite, but I'm affraid that is nonsense. It wasn't even an opinion. He didn't say "I think x,y,z, can you comment on that?". He set out to directly explain why she was wrong, and he did so in a way dripping with condescension. It was rude as fuck. And those are not in-depth technical comments so don't require expertise. " Again majority here disagrees with you. Major publication disagrees with you. That guy's own fucking statements and its presentation definitely disagrees with your opinion. You're caught up on that he is a lesser than commenting on someone who is a professional so he shouldn't have any bothered. So therefore he is trying to tell someone how to do their job. None of which he implied, inferred, nor declared. "Everyone in the industry eh? " Yes, major publications have virtually agreed that Deroir's statement was not, what you say, "condescending", "rude", "impolite.", or any other imposition you want to use. Especially about the gender issue, which was first brought up by her to attack him. But I see you don't want to address that part at all. As for the rest of the post and the point you made. At no point has the community as a whole, except for the trolls and they are dismissed by the community anyways. Have presented themselves in a way that does not support women in the industry not declare they must endure any sort of harassment. If they did receive harassment the community would call it out. And in this particular instance, they called it out, except it was done by representatives of a company that holds principles of having a good relationship with their community base. JP did not do that. And the community responded and called her out and declare she was inappropriate. You will also find the community is conflicted too about the firings and I am sure if you follow it, but you don't but I am part of it. But we all agree the firing is debatable. But her attack on a member like she did, should not be ignored and should have been addressed. It was addressed. No one on the community is going say that women are less than in development. In fact the company itself prides itself on complete diversity and has been that way for years. In fact JP has declared it such as well. Until her firing and she has been giving her interviews to the publications that are being bias and not remaining neutral. Especially by the headlines being used. Yes, people are going to be critical of ArenaNet's actions taken upon the firings. But the crux of it is, and that was the main issue that it got more attention and you cannot dispute, well you can, but you be way off scale. Is when she introduce the gender card. And declaring the only reason why Deroir said what he said was because she was a woman. She used this tactic to divert and hide her response. To cloud her actions, to garner support. In fact the community has supported her and acknowledge her work, especially in the AMA reddit sessions. Deroir has and admittedly was a big fan. As pointed out before. So again, far fetched to interject to think that one, the community doesn't acknowledge the ugliness there is towards women in this industry. And two, that it doesn't get called out. Devs, male or female, have been in a toxic environement and work in one. Some by their peers, some by their customer base, some by the media, critics, etc. So again, JP bringing up the gender issue and how she was attack. Which she was not by Derior. And that isn't to say she wasn't attacked before or during, by other posters, twitters, or whomever. But Deroir definiately is not the villain as some, including you are painting him out to be. You haven't pointed out how he was being completely unfair to her. So far all you've done is said this; "he has no credentials to be able to form an opinion about a subject to a person who is a professional, shame on him, he was insulting." And clearly that isn't the case. You enjoy your delusions of grandeur, but you're not fooling anyone with your white knight bullshit. You're simply not. Call out sexism when there is sexism. Deroir clearly did not portray that via JP.
delude Member	Fri Jul 13 16:57:37 "I've annoted the twitter thread between them both above in this thread. Go check it out." No. I've read it enough times. Where is it? You've claim he put on blast. So, where is it? "In a technical subject, you can have whatever opinion you like but if you straight up tell an expert they are wrong in a,b,c *BECAUSE* in your *OPINION* x,y,z and you actually have no knowledge, skills or track record in the area - well you deserve to get called out on that. You are not going to have anyone *respect* you or your opinion. So yeah, I can have an opinion on, oh, monetary policy. And if I can back it with good arguments and citations I think it would be unreasonable to respond "bog off". But if I were to straight up tell one of the senior officials in the bank of England handling monetary policy, say, that he or she is *wrong* because in my opinion x,y,z - without any supporting evidence or substantial logical reasoning, that's a very different proposition. I hope you can see that, but I guess probably not. You go be you. " Where did he say she was wrong? Where?
delude Member	Fri Jul 13 16:59:32 "So basically, seb is crafting all sorts of uninformed bullshit in the exact manner he is accusing the streamer of doing and thinks he's justified. Seb is the physicist in the xkcd he posted. And he doesn't get it. " QFT.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 17:05:50 hood: "Anyone who is part of the storyboarding or writing is not going to need technical skills" Anyone who is story-boarding in a game design is going to be working hand in glove with UI designers and absolutely they have to understand the decision tree mechanics. Because those elements all have to work together. If the script designer comes with fifteen different options, the UI guy is going to point out that's going to need a code change. Most games design teams are multidisciplinary, involving quite a lot of collaboration. You can't just toss off some copy editing. The whole thing has to work together. Here's an overview from the perspective of the product manager overall. https://www.slideshare.net/productschool/what-is-gaming-product-management-like-by-zynga-product-manager The dialogue design will need to think about user experience, the constraints UI imposes and whether they absolutely need to request a change, and they absolutely do need to think in terms of a complex decision tree. It's not like writing a line in a film, you have to make each line work with multiple alternative lines in away that doesn't jar. These are technical skills.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 17:06:32 But thanks Hood for telling me how agile software development works as I head off for my new career in consulting.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 13 17:11:49 Delude: "? What is it, you keep avoiding this, what the fuck is it he said that was so condescending?" I literally explicitly pointed that out at the top of the thread. I will repeat it once now. But the price for repeating it is that I am ignoring the rest of your post until you re-write it to incorporate and digest why I think the post is condescending. ___ "Really interesting thread to read! However, allow me to disagree *slightly*." [Good work young padawan, but you are not yet Jedi, let me tell you, an experienced games designer, your mistake based on my unsupported opinion as a rank amateur] "I dont believe the issue lies in the MMORPG genre itself (as your wording seemingly suggest)." [You are wrong.] "I believe the issue lies in the contraints of the Living Story's narrative design; When you want the outcome to be the same across the board for all players' experiences, then yes, by design you are extremely limited in how you can contruct the personality of the PC But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express *their* character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), (3 of 4 cause I count seemingly...)" then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG." [This thing you said is hard is actually quite easy if you do it the way I just thought up and have not tested in practice or know how to implement in practice, nor thought of the practicalities of] "Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread!" [So, in conclusion you are wrong, but it's ok, I - with no standing in the field - judge it to be a good first start]. I mean, he might as well have finished with "So, yeah, if you could just do that for me, that would be great" or however that line goes.
delude Member	Fri Jul 13 17:11:57 "Anyone who is story-boarding in a game design is going to be working hand in glove with UI designers and absolutely they have to understand the decision tree mechanics. " So, do they need technical skills or not? In a larger scale not so much. That's why you have coders who code. You have engineers, you have artists, you have writers. Sometime its combination of talents and skills. But, in a larger company like arenanet, blizzard, ea, etc. Have specific divisions that do their thing. And not all are mutual. So yes, this means you are demonstration your lack of knowledge and would appreciate if you would GTFO. kthanx
hood Member	Fri Jul 13 17:19:17 What a dumb cunt. Pretty much all of your bitching was already covered in my post. I dread those you consult for. Perhaps you should consider your new career be in coffin occupation?
delude Member	Fri Jul 13 17:19:24 Seb, purely subjective commentary and everyone else with commonsense did not take it that way as you are portraying it. Disagreeing with someone doesn't demean their talent. It simply is a disagreement and has an alternative thought and that doesn't meant they consider them wrong. Only to present a difference perspective. He doesn't infer it was easy either. He pointed out may another method to consider, and if considered, how did it work out before, what were the results. Oh, open dialogue. I'm shocked. And then you want to saying insightful, well what does that mean, oh, maybe he is appreciating the fact that she presented her thoughts and it gave the public, the community things to consider or think about and appreciated her time for doing so. You know her whole fucking opening statement for her thread? "Since I spent all kinds of time saying it on Reddit AMA, and I haven't talked about actual game dev on Twitter in a while, here's a thread about writing for PC character in an MMO."
delude Member	Fri Jul 13 17:22:51 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aooZ_jKPLv0 Sums it up. Fuck off seb. Will need to see some qualifications or a resume from now on.
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