Utopia Talk / Politics / Louis CK

Im better then you 2012 UP Football Champ	Thu Nov 09 23:00:13 Say it ain't so Louis say it ain't so. Seriously the guy's career is ruined because of that. He was creepy, wrong, and werid but he should come back from this.
Rugian Member	Thu Nov 09 23:08:06 What he's being accused of is so stupid it's laughable. Oh, a woman consented to a sex act but later regretted it? Dear God, put this man in prison immediately! He deserves it though. He went all in with the Hollywood and SJW crowd years ago, not realizing that they would immediately throw him under the bus the second they needed a new target to demonize. One only has to hear his comedy on the old O&A show to realize how funny he could be when unfiltered, but he chose to go the pretentious douchebag LA sellout route. He can whine about how Trump is Hitler and claim that Hillary should be president "because she's a mom" all he wants, none of that was ever going to save him from the PC faggots who are famous for eating their own. I hope his career fails completely, serves him right.
Cherub Cow Member	Thu Nov 09 23:09:05 According to Salon, "PoundMeToo" may be coming for Louis C.K.. and here's an NPR link so that peeps don't have to give New York Times any click revenue: "Multiple Women Say Louis C.K. Masturbated In Front Of Them, 'New York Times' Reports" http://www...of-them-new-york-times-reports "The women describe interactions that seemed professional or collegial — on set, at a comedy festival, on the phone talking about comedy shows. Then C.K. unexpectedly steered the encounter into overtly sexual territory. In one case he asked to masturbate in front of a female colleague on set and was rebuffed; in the other cases, he masturbated either in a room in front of the women or apparently did so while on the phone with them." "• Comedy duo Dana Min Goodman and Julia Wolov say they met C.K. in 2002 at his hotel room, together, after their show at the Aspen Comedy Festival. They thought he was joking when he asked if he could, as the Times puts it, "take out his penis." Then he stripped naked and masturbated while the two women sat "paralyzed," Goodman told the Times. They told people about the incident (later described in a famous Gawker blind item) but felt pressure from C.K.'s powerful manager to fall silent, they told the newspaper. • Comedian Abby Schachner called C.K. to invite him to a show and he started describing sexual fantasies and breathing heavily, she told the newspaper. Years later C.K. messaged her to apologize for the conversation ending in "a sordid fashion," according to a message seen by the Times. • Comedian Rebecca Corry said C.K. asked if he could masturbate in front of her in her dressing room. She said no, and C.K. told her he "had issues," she told the Times. That incident was confirmed by Courtney Cox and David Arquette, the Times reports. • A woman who wished to remain anonymous said she worked on the Chris Rock show while C.K. was a producer there, and that C.K. repeatedly asked her to watch him masturbate; she agreed. The encounter happened in his office during the workday. She described the experience as an abuse of C.K.'s power."
Dukhat Member	Fri Nov 10 01:44:28 I agree that sex abuse is a problem but some of this shit is just stupid shitty hanky panky that goes on in most people's lives. If you socialize with the opposite sex and have some money and power or fame this shit happens, especially with booze. What's bad is when people abuse their power like Weinstein did in destroying careers. Or when they act like the 2nd coming of jesus but abuse young girls like Roy Moore. Louis CK acted like a creep and should make amends but ending people's career over this shit is ridiculous.
FUCK YOU FAG Member	Fri Nov 10 09:52:11 "when he asked if he could "take out his penis."" He asked he before he did so, I see no problem.
hood Member	Fri Nov 10 10:01:22 Is anyone actually surprised by this?
FUCK YOU FAG Member	Fri Nov 10 10:09:14 Also he was also very open about this: http://youtu.be/uPb8YqyYijg?t=4m38s
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Nov 10 12:04:43 I saw the #metoo spiral from the alleged serial rapist Weinstein to "a guy hit me ever break when I was 7" and finally "guys were comparing the girls breasts". All on Swedish TV in prime time. #fuckallyall
obaminated Member	Fri Nov 10 12:13:12 His career wont be over, but he will be blackballed fot a few years and then come back on the indie circuit. Assuming it ends here and the woman he allegedly cornered into a bathroom stall doesnt speak up. Thatll ruin him for sure.
Daemon Member	Fri Nov 10 12:47:10 Weinstein was accused of masturbation, too. I have to think of this (great) movie scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMiyel4oo_k
jergul large member	Fri Nov 10 12:57:28 US comedian Louis C.K. has admitted that sexual misconduct allegations made against him by five women are true. He said he had "wielded power irresponsibly" and could hardly wrap his head around the "scope of hurt" he had caused them. Four of the accusers told the New York Times he masturbated during interactions with them and a fifth said he had asked to do so. The allegations led to the release of his new movie being scrapped.
jergul large member	Fri Nov 10 13:03:11 That was bbc.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Nov 10 14:10:41 No apology tough.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Nov 10 14:36:57 *-though
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Nov 10 14:58:43 his full statement: "I want to address the stories told to the New York Times by five women named Abby, Rebecca, Dana, Julia who felt able to name themselves and one who did not. These stories are true. At the time, I said to myself that what I did was okay because I never showed a woman my dick without asking first, which is also true. But what I learned later in life, too late, is that when you have power over another person, asking them to look at your dick isn't a question. It's a predicament for them. The power I had over these women is that they admired me. And I wielded that power irresponsibly. I have been remorseful of my actions. And I've tried to learn from them. And run from them. Now I'm aware of the extent of the impact of my actions. I learned yesterday the extent to which I left these women who admired me feeling badly about themselves and cautious around other men who would never have put them in that position. I also took advantage of the fact that I was widely admired in my and their community, which disabled them from sharing their story and brought hardship to them when they tried because people who look up to me didn't want to hear it. I didn't think that I was doing any of that because my position allowed me not to think about it. There is nothing about this that I forgive myself for. And I have to reconcile it with who I am. Which is nothing compared to the task I left them with. I wish I had reacted to their admiration of me by being a good example to them as a man and given them some guidance as a comedian, including because I admired their work. The hardest regret to live with is what you've done to hurt someone else. And I can hardly wrap my head around the scope of hurt I brought on them. I'd be remiss to exclude the hurt that I've brought on people who I work with and have worked with who's [sic] professional and personal lives have been impacted by all of this, including projects currently in production: the cast and crew of 'Better Things,' 'Baskets,' 'The Cops,' 'One Mississippi,' and 'I Love You Daddy.' I deeply regret that this has brought negative attention to my manager Dave Becky who only tried to mediate a situation that I caused. I've brought anguish and hardship to the people at FX who have given me so much The Orchard who took a chance on my movie and every other entity that has bet on me through the years. I've brought pain to my family, my friends, my children and their mother. I have spent my long and lucky career talking and saying anything I want. I will now step back and take a long time to listen. Thank you for reading."
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Nov 10 16:03:55 Louie will be fine, Cosby set the bar among comedians. As long as you don't full Cosby, you should be fine.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Nov 10 16:04:28 Louis*
patom Member	Fri Nov 10 18:00:38 I honestly had no idea who the hell Louis CK was. But he has confessed and said what his 5 accusers said is the truth.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Nov 10 19:14:12 I didn't recognize the name, but he looked vaguely familiar.
smart dude Member	Fri Nov 10 19:19:11 Die please.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Nov 10 19:49:00 Red Skelton was very likely a hundred times funnier and his humor was clean. When was the last time you watched him?
obaminated Member	Fri Nov 10 20:22:01 Hah. Apparently he claimed these accusations as false a month ago. Thats gonna hurt the credibility of this apology.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Nov 10 20:23:44 Doesn't matter, he' toast anyway.
Cherub Cow Member	Fri Nov 10 20:54:28 lol@CK's response Was that the dictionary definition of the beta male? He held power over them because they admired him? Are you fucking kidding me? He should fucking kill himself. Not for masturbating in front of people who apparently said, "Yes," but for apologizing for it in the most "advocate/ally" sort of way. Maybe he just copy and pasted his response from Jezebel.com? And he brought pain to people? Like he thinks that this was an alteration to his public persona or something? Masturbating in front of people was like 100% in line with the gross character that he's been on TV and in standup, so what does he think that in the public's eye he was Malala or something*? I may be going overboard, but this has to be the dumbest fucking thing I've seen in a while, and I visit Imgur regularly. *(not that Malala isn't a bad faith puppet, but her public persona is clean)
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Nov 10 21:34:16 I think Malala is a strong young woman that has come back from a serious wound and has done a great deal for the young women of her country and others around the world. I refuse to argue about it, but that is my opinion of her.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Sat Nov 11 00:27:03 “I am heartbroken that today President Trump is closing the door on children, mothers and fathers fleeing violence and war. I am heartbroken that America is turning its back on a proud history of welcoming refugees and immigrants — the people who helped build your country, ready to work hard in exchange for a fair chance at a new life. ” ~Malala & i thought CK's response was fine :p you are tough, CC! he's got daughters to answer to, and co-workers
jergul large member	Sat Nov 11 03:15:23 I too thought it a good apology.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Nov 11 03:24:24 Well Louis CK has always been a beta male, he attained alpha stats by being a really funny beta male, his comedy is extremly self depricating and beta. He is no Bill Burr.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Nov 11 03:29:39 He has been a loser all his life, his life improved as he got older, he is fairly honest about that as well. To the extent that he has behaved badly, it is a rather inert ”abuse” of power. Everything about it, the abuse and the apology is very Louis CK when you think about it. He jerked off infront of you, because even at the height of his ego and power, he understood his own limitations. Very sad.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Nov 11 03:31:21 Now I actually feel worse for him than his victims. What a sad and pathetic sexual predator.. if more sexual predators were like CK, this would be a better world!
obaminated Member	Sun Nov 12 23:18:11 I dont like that he was crass during his apology. That was poor form. Also, his manager just dropped him. Im thinking there is more women ready to come out thatll sink his battle ship. These sexual deviants are basically toddler version of serial killers. Meaning they repeat and keep doing it till they are caught. 5 over 20 years? Nah.
Aeros Member	Sun Nov 12 23:41:06 At this point I think its safe to say that any dude who claims to be a male feminist is a creep.
Forwyn Member	Mon Nov 13 00:38:29 CC went totally based on Louis CucK
jergul large member	Mon Nov 13 01:21:32 Aeros Or we could say that anyone who has served in the US military overseas is a creep. Better baseline documentation on that claim.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Nov 13 01:56:19 All these feminist sexual predators are like the pedophile priests. There are certain dynamics that attracts certain types of people, like sexual predators. Both positions gives the male a certain status and perhaps most importantly a demasculinizing effect i.e less threatening and more trustworthy.
Dukhat Member	Mon Nov 13 19:26:37 People just do what they get away with and most stop if caught. Transparency fixes most of these issues. If Louis CK or Spacey had been caught early, then they would've probably stopped and nobody would care. But they got away with creepy things for a long time because nobody spoke up and that's a little bit on the victims too. These guys had next to no power when their careers were starting. They were just into weird stuff. So to do it now, is in a way punishing them for being successful since I bet you probably like half of all guys do creepy stupid stuff their entire live and don't ever get caught. So basically people accusing these guys need to speak up right away and I bet you the behavior will stop 90% of the time. ********************************* All this shit about stuff that happened 30 years ago is getting irritating. It doesn't matter unless it's at least somewhat related to what they're doing now. Roy Moore ran on being an ultra-Christian and was basically a paedophile. That shit matters. Louis CK was a struggling comedy writer who didn't make it until later in his life and did stupid sex things that were harassment but not abuse. Meh. I guess it matters a little since so many of his jokes deal with creepy stuff; but ... meh. Social Justice Warriors need to start picking their spots better because people are starting to get tired of all the accusations.
Aeros Member	Mon Nov 13 21:46:37 They won't pick their battles. And that is a huge problem because their moral equivalency is that a man who slaps a girl on the butt and says "Nice ass!" is just as much a sexual predator as the one who drugs a woman, drags her into an alley and sodomizes her asshole. Of course, normal gender and sexual morays means there is a ton of ass slapping compared to actual anal sodomy. But to the SJW, all are one and the same and so the horrible LITERALLY RAPED accusations of the ass slapped rises in a huge wailing crescendo, completely drowning out the very rare anally sodomized. The end result is people end up not caring about the truly the abused. The SJW's cannot care because their shrill panic is spread across so many people it lacks focus, and the rest of society cannot care because they cannot sort the truly abused from the SJW's shrilling.
obaminated Member	Mon Nov 13 23:08:15 It comes down to who is doing it. If weinstein slapped a girl on the ass it wouldnt be something the girl liked. If captain America did it she would be scheming ways to get into his trailer to suck him off. Mad men had a good episode about how Don gets away with certain behavior that more boorish guys get shit on for.
jergul large member	Tue Nov 14 00:24:56 Aeros Because rape is just a moral crime. No recourse in criminal and civic courts. You may want to review your statistics if you think rape in an infrequent occurence. Most women you know have been raped.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Nov 14 03:00:30 According to whatever definition #metoo is running, everyone man and women have been raped. That is where part of the disagreement stands. This is textbook example of concept creep. ”Nazi”, ”terrorist”, ”rapist” and so on. Meaningless words in the public debate, thanks to the very people who say they want to defend society from these very phenomena. It is like that story about the bear who used a giant rock to kill the bee sitting on his sleeping friends head. Where these words had an impact historically there has been a rapid errosion. They have lost their efficacy, which is a tragedy. The only gain is that the discourse can now move forward where it was paralyzed by shaming, but at a great cost to the precision and impact of language.
jergul large member	Tue Nov 14 04:15:40 The way forward is by putting more rapists in jail.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Nov 14 05:14:07 Can we start with Bill Clinton? He raped at least one woman, but she was not believed then. Can we believe her now and jail the son of a bitch?
jergul large member	Tue Nov 14 06:31:24 HR Statute of limitations. It was more than 30 years since the alleged rape. But if we are going after presidents...
jergul large member	Tue Nov 14 06:32:48 http://www.../donald-trump-scandals/474726/
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Nov 14 07:28:19 And then there is Obama who, almost, single-handedly started all of the racism you see in our society today. He has had some help from Al Sharpton and his crowd. Tell me something, was Obama involved in all of the scandals in his administration or do you think he was just too stupid to know what was going on?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Nov 14 10:21:58 Rape is difficult to prove for obvious reasons. Saying we should ”put more rapist in jail” is the kind of hollow virtue signaling this topic needs as bad as I need a rash on my balls. Here is a more concrete suggestion in prevention, stop telling women they _should_ be able to x y and z without getting raped or molested. We don’t live in the world of shoulds, we live in the real world and the real world is populated by unsaviory characters and predators. You have a moral responsibility for your own safety. Sex ed should have time dedicated to risk assessment, where this is lacking and feminism should take responsibility for selling women this fantasy of a world where being a woman makes you untouchable by rapists.
jergul large member	Tue Nov 14 10:47:50 Nimi: "Waah! I am being virtuesignaled. I am so outraged" Grow up. The pragmatic advice there would be to stay away from all male aquantences, in particular those related to you. Or we could tell people they should contact the hospital immediately to do the rape kit thing. Public awareness. Tell guardians to be very suspicious of any changes in children in their care, and not to trust kinship as in any way protecting children from molestation. Put more money into police investigations of this type of crime. Weigh heavily the positive permission bit when determining if a sexual encounter is rape or not. There are lots of things that can be done. Its not as if there are few fish in that particular barrel of criminals.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Nov 14 11:31:28 Does anyone seriously believe a woman that was raped 30 years ago would sit there and cry like a baby while reciting the incident? Seems like she would have come to grips with it by now.
Rugian Member	Tue Nov 14 12:01:13 jergul is in full male ally mode today it seems. You do realize that pandering to feminists as a man not only don't get you laid, but makes you 300% statistically more likely to be a rapist yourself? If we want to start jailing millions of men for doing as little as looking at a woman the wrong way, you'd be among the first to get sent to the gulags.
Rugian Member	Tue Nov 14 12:04:38 If you Google it, fishermen are statistically significantly more likely to be severe alcoholics. There is zero chance that jergul hasn't brutally violated at least one woman in his lifetime.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Nov 14 12:22:19 "There is zero chance that jergul hasn't brutally violated at least one woman in his lifetime." is the word "brutally" really needed in the above statement. asking for a friend.
jergul large member	Tue Nov 14 16:25:29 Ruggy I would be happy if people just used the recourses available to them through the legal system. The legislation is in place. Implementation is lacking. Yepp, fishermen are generally alcoholics, drug addicts or christians. I have walked many a man to the gates of hell.
obaminated Member	Tue Nov 14 19:32:16 That last sentence is a great line, im stealing it.
Rugian Member	Tue Nov 14 19:35:16 jergul, you literally implied that a majority of women have been raped in their lifetimes. You're being ridiculous, cut it with the male ally shit already. Put the vagina hat away, tell your wife to make you a sandwich, and remember that you have balls for a reason.
Cold Rod Member	Tue Nov 14 19:35:20 "Does anyone seriously believe a woman that was raped 30 years ago would sit there and cry like a baby while reciting the incident? Seems like she would have come to grips with it by now." yeah, especially those when they were children molested by their family members, a teacher, or mentor, or some adult who kept it to themselves or years, as it was a traumatic event. Not to even consider the children by pedo-priests (your kind). As they gave chilling testimony and breaking down in court crying. Yeah, you think they would have gotten a grip by now. God you're a disgusting pedophile.
RugianLovesTheCock Member	Tue Nov 14 19:35:57 I love balls.
Rugian Member	Tue Nov 14 19:38:08 But then again, we're talking about a guy from a country where children as young as 6 can choose to change their gender without parental consent. No wonder jergul is so cucked.
RugianLovesTheCock Member	Tue Nov 14 19:38:40 I prefer cocked!
Rugian Member	Tue Nov 14 19:41:42 Seriously jergul, all it takes for you is to click a button on a website, and boom, you're a woman in the eyes of your government. Do it already, we won't judge.
RugianLovesTheCock Member	Tue Nov 14 19:43:18 Join the cock club, CC baby! I've been in it for years. I like da trannies.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Nov 14 20:55:08 They are blaming old man Bush now. What a crock of shit you guys are following.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Nov 14 21:50:42 here's Juanita Broaddrick crying about her alleged incident in the late 1970s http://youtu.be/zHh73fkDUIs?t=3m24s
Cherub Cow Member	Tue Nov 14 22:31:30 [Nimatzo]: "You have a moral responsibility for your own safety." +1 If isolated from where this statement led or from conclusions that it inferred, this taps into my problem with CK's apology. CK's denial that consent even matters because of his "power" is slave morality feminism. Slave morality functions by creating new rules which are not concerned with equality or meritocracy but which instead seek to enslave those with perceived power for the benefit of those perceived to lack power. One of the ways it does this is by holding those in power completely *responsible*/accountable for nearly everything while forming rules/morality which minimize the responsibility/accountability of those who lack power. In other words, anyone in "power" must answer for their actions, but anyone *without* "power" is free to do anything and not be held accountable for it. So there's slave morality in place here already because CK thinks that he is more accountable than his "victims", **even when his "victims" consented**. So, he, who has "power" [apparently because he's a popular comedian and comedy writer and because he's white male cis scum] must be answerable for what he's done, but the people who *consented* still get to claim victimization. This logic isn't just harmful for men, it is a threat to the Mary Wollstonecraft sense of *any* person's ability to claim virtue through action, responsibility, and ideology. That is, here by denying a woman's ability to even be responsible for playing a part in affirmative consent, the woman suffers because she cannot claim virtue (cannot make decisions which have weight or matter because she can only be seen as "victim" and her decisions can be re-written to be mere "subject" to the man's "unquestionable" role as patriarch/lord; she has no responsibilities, even for her own decisions). Similarly, by over-accounting for the effects of a man's "power", the man suffers because he must mentally reduce his ideology and deny any virtue through a mechanism of guilt and endless apology for his very penile existence (cannot form compacts with other people because those compacts always will be seen to be from some farcical place of power rather than from any accumulated experiential attributes; the man, due to his very "maleness" is responsible for everything [negative] that happens). The end state of this does not concern itself with equality but with a reversal of a perceived dominance. Men give up their "power" to women. There is no meritocracy, just concession. No end to rule, just a switch from patriarchy to matriarchy — here via the re-founding of a protected class that must be *given* everything in order to succeed. In short: it's fucking insulting. It's a ski lift to the top of Mount Everest that uses a model of guilt/debt/reparations to gloss over the fact that it *denies* people the individual accomplishment of grabbing a pack and climbing. In concrete terms: was CK a creep for asking to masturbate in front of people? Totally, and he's a creep for (for years) making it clear that that's the type of guy he is via his standup/writing. But do these supposed "victims" get a pass on saying, "Yes," or not saying, "Shit I thought you were joking. Fucking stop masturbating."? I don't think so. If I said, "Yes," to that then I'd buckle the fuck up, but I don't say, "Yes," when I really mean "No," maybe because I'm not retarded. But if these people suffer from retardation, could they still lead kickass lives and maybe even become pilots? Maybe.
jergul large member	Tue Nov 14 23:37:08 Abuse from a position authority is a pretty established principle CC. The moral of your story is more to never put yourself in a position where powerful people can make or break your aspirations. You should become a fisherman!
jergul large member	Tue Nov 14 23:39:43 Ruggy I did not imply it. I said it. Rural communities are more transparent, blame my position on that more than anything else.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Nov 15 00:27:36 an apology putting blame on the women probably would've ended his career for sure (plus his career affects others' careers) “do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?” ~Dr. Phil
Average European Member	Wed Nov 15 02:09:30 YOU WILL NEVER... Be Arnold Schwarzengroper, groping the hell out of tits and ass from the 60s to the 90s, going almost entirely unscathed and becoming governator. feelsbadman
jergul large member	Wed Nov 15 03:20:25 http://twitter.com/hashtag/MeAt14 Yah, lets talk more about moral responsibility.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Nov 15 10:57:36 Well said CC, though nothing you wrote is at odds with my practical advice. Once you take into account the difficult judicial process, the level of evidence required and the reality of predatory people, it is pretty clear. Pinning your safety on the hope that everyone you meet is a decent person is naive and insane. In Sweden they handed out silicone bracelets to girls at festivals reading ”don’t touch me” or something even dumber. This reminds me of Iran during the war with Iraq, they handed out plastic keys to the Basij fighters, the keys to paradise you see. Secular religion is still religion, stupid and harmful.
jergul large member	Wed Nov 15 12:22:22 Nimi Wow. Or we could just apply the same kind of legal diligence used in the war on terror against sexual predators. I would favour public funding for civic cases as one means of tackling the issue. The balance of probability threshold would help reporting levels significantly. In addition to public awareness. Victims and witnesses do have a moral responsibility to report sexual crimes. Since we are speaking of moral responsibility. Report it if you know of a sexual crime. In sum: Virtual immunity is a legal problem resolved by proper use of the legal system. Sweden has high conviction rates for a reason. Lets see more of that.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Nov 15 13:37:21 Sweden has a very low* conviction rate for the same reasons everyone else does. Comparing rape statistics between countries is very difficult because of the very different definitions of what rape is.
jergul large member	Wed Nov 15 13:47:29 http://sta.../10610_2011_9163_Fig2_HTML.gif "Only because of the high ratio of 53% of convicted persons in relation to suspects Sweden has the highest conviction rate of all countries concerned"
jergul large member	Wed Nov 15 13:50:55 http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10610-011-9163-x ======== But yah, going for civic trials when criminal trials fail is definately one way to improve reporting and restitution rates. Balance of probability is a bitch :).
jergul large member	Wed Nov 15 13:58:53 http://www...omt-til-erstatning/s/5-34-2254 That is actually perfect. The assumption of innocence is a bit problematic in sexual crimes. A probability based sentence for economic restitution is a good measure. I am innocent! Here is 20 000 dollars. Uhm, because, uhm.
jergul large member	Wed Nov 15 14:01:12 I wonder what "conviction" rates look like if economic restitution is considered a verdict in terms of considering rates.
jergul large member	Wed Nov 15 14:09:13 Heh, tangible and intangible cost of rape/sexual assault averages about 240k in the US a while back. 75% probability the person did sexually assault someone = .75x240k = 180k restitution award. That would work.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Nov 16 01:06:19 Like I said, different definitions of rape. I am sure you can dig up the several amnesty reports about the deplorable conviction rate of sweden. So completely meaningless. According to your link Poland is a model state for rape convictions. Poland who has an actual debate about abortion rights be or not to be, a far more conservative and religious country than any Nordic country. Iran has virtually ”no rape”, obviously for a reason. Nothing should be fought ”like the war on terror”, not even terror.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Nov 16 01:11:19 A further explanation for the high crime rate is that data for the police statistics in Sweden are collected when the offence is reported to the police (the counting unit is the offence). Multiple offences are counted as two or more offences; an offence committed by more than one person is, as a rule, counted as one offence, but in rape cases as two or more offences. Both of those procedures contribute to the high numbers as well. The fact of higher-than-usual Swedish rape figures has also been visible in earlier ESB editions and was already discussed by (von Hofer 2000). These extraordinary Swedish figures only relate to reported rape cases. When it comes to suspected persons, the Swedish rates are within the range of other countries like France6 and Germany. Only because of the high ratio of 53% of convicted persons in relation to suspects Sweden has the highest conviction rate of all countries concerned. In contrast, Poland starts with extremely low rates of rape and of suspected rapists, though the concept of rape is comparatively wide, including all sexual assaults (see above, III). This means that the input in form of reports to the police is comparably low. But on the other side there is an extremely high ratio of convicted persons which leads to a relatively high rate of convicted persons and unsuspended prison sentences per 100,000 inhabitants, higher than in Germany, the Netherlands and England & Wales, although the rates of offences and suspects recorded in these countries is quite a bit higher.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Nov 16 01:42:36 http://www.../valdtakt-och-sexualbrott.html Here are some official no. Declining rate of resolving rape cases. Most of the victims are immigrants. The willingness to report among them is in comparison low. Large influx these past years. The police are on record, saying they do not prioritize rape and sexual offences. The debate and facts on this specific topic in Sweden these past few years is counter to everything you are saying about how awesome Sweden deals with rape.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Nov 16 01:46:46 http://www.svd.se/andelen-uppklarade-valdtakter-sjunker 2017^
Seb Member	Thu Nov 16 01:59:57 Nim: fascinating. I thought the high Swedish rape was because of the immigrants, at least when we discussed it last.
jergul large member	Thu Nov 16 02:17:28 50% conviction rate when there is a suspect and rape is reported in the years I found. Rapes often take more than 6 months to become resolved. But would not your moral logic extend to gang crimes? People have a moral responsibility to just move away from inner cities with problems? But we do not disagree. Sexual assault legal recourses are generally in a shambles. That can be fixed quite easily. Starting with the moral responsibility to report and seek damages. Yay. Jergul just fixed the world.
jergul large member	Thu Nov 16 03:13:35 To recap Victims, witnesses and those with suspicions have a moral obligation to report suspected sexual offences. The polic and judicial system have the moral obligation to seek convictions and where that is not possible, to seek damages. The key to resolving more crimes of this type rests in balance of probability evaluations.
jergul large member	Thu Nov 16 03:22:05 People do however have the moral responsibility to move away from cities with gang violence.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Nov 16 10:44:24 Seb What is fascinating in this thread in relation to the facts about the perp profile? Jergul I am going by official no. and the history and trend as they are known and discussed in Sweden. The trend is deplorable to a large extent because the victims increasingly are immigrant women from cultures where the _judicial_ responsibility is to not get raped. But also because Swedish police has huge issues in manpower and operating principles and procedure. To sum it, the Swedish system was not designed for this grade of criminals.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Nov 16 10:49:30 If we listen to you seb, it is as if I just threw out there that immigrants rape indiscriminatly. Like I did not explain several times that it differes depending on group and that specifically the cultural context of the definition ”rape” is partly of the explanation. Mother to a guy who raped a 13 yeard together with another guy in school bathroom: ”no no we told him that in our country you are not allowed to do this _before you are married_.
jergul large member	Thu Nov 16 11:55:14 Nimi The normative "what should be done". Balance of probability rulez! But people do have the moral responibility to move away from cities with gang violence. "the Swedish system was not designed for this grade of criminals".
Cherub Cow Member	Thu Nov 16 12:40:47 [jergul]: "Abuse from a position authority is a pretty established principle CC. [/] The moral of your story is more to never put yourself in a position where powerful people can make or break your aspirations." I think that you've totally missed my point about people claiming abuse via a *farcical* power differential **even after consenting**. I wasn't talking about some "Mad Men" story of a secretary who has to go along because that's the only way to move up in a man's world. This isn't problematizing walking into a bad neighborhood and hoping not to get raped because of "should be safe" logic. This is CK saying that "power" was their very *admiration* of him. This is CK saying that simply being popular [or between the lines: a white male cis scum with money] is enough for a power differential to exist which abolishes a party's part in affirmative consent and which leaves all responsibility on the *perceived* "power" holder (that holder merely being the approved target class of slave morality). Many problematic conclusions to this: • Can a band's singer have sex with a groupie who has willingly sought out the band singer for sex? Apparently not by CK's logic. The groupie *admires* the singer, so it would be rape/abuse regardless of any cognitive energy that the groupie invests in the *decision* to seek out the singer (i.e., no accountability for *informed* decisions or for intentional outcomes). Given that three of CK's "victims" were fellow comedians performing at the same shows, it would also be problematic for a member of a less popular band to seek out sex with a member of a more popular band. • Can someone marry and have sex with another person if one party is in a different tax bracket? Not by CK's logic. "I do" in the vows must not mean anything if the lower bracket person admires the higher bracket person. Or worse: if they were both in the same bracket but one is white male cis scum, does that very status as white male cis scum automatically disable the willfulness of the other party's consent? Can white male cis scum only marry each other because it's okay for them to "rape"/abuse each other and select out of the gene pool? Certainly by CK and Jezebel.com's slave morality logic; penetration itself must be wrong, and CK should apologize to the mother of his children. That being said, my complaint is with the wording/explanation of CK's apology (why *he* thinks that this was wrong), not with the legal side of this. On the *legal* side CK will go down (rightly) for other reasons, like in the case of Dana Min Goodman and Julia Wolov wherein CK stood in front of the door and continued masturbating until he finished even as Goodman and Wolov tried to leave (their attempt to leave being a sign that they had withdrawn consent and CK's blocking of the door potentially being false imprisonment). It's also an obvious problem that CK masturbated in front of an employee of the Chris Rock show (*that* would be the "Mad Men"-like scenario) because in that case CK had a direct influence on her career. Does he mention that? No. He does not say "my power as producer and employer," he says that his "power" was being admired, and he mixes that admiration with the few signs that he's recognizing any producer/employer obligations (e.g., his use of "position", which he tries to define as his "position" as a "person who was admired" rather than his "position" as a show producer). An analogy for CK's rationale here might be a murderer saying "sorry" not for being a murderer but instead apologizing for the unfortunate/"immoral" differential between the softness of flesh and the hardness of a knife blade, all while seemingly advocating for softer knives. Not a perfect analogy, but it sounds absurd enough.
jergul large member	Thu Nov 16 15:00:41 I always love a good "argument ad absurdum". The boundary goes somewhere before a point where people are still pissed off decades later. Criminal and/or civic court for restitution. Problem solved.
Rugian Member	Thu Nov 16 18:42:27 jergul, Ignoring the fact that women are often liars, I don't know if your shitty Arctic rural hovel is the best example of the prevalence of rape in general society. Constantinople also had some ridiculous rape rates for a couple days back in 1453, but I'm not going to use that as a barometer either. CC, I never figured you for someone who took the red pill, color me impressed.
Renzo Marquez Member	Thu Nov 16 19:00:07 (((Louis CK)))
Senor Marquez Member	Thu Nov 16 19:05:17 (((Lawyer))) #trendybitch
jergul large member	Thu Nov 16 19:28:06 Ruggy Urbanization certainly would decrease sexual abuse in all its forms, but does little to provide restitution to victims of any gender.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Nov 17 02:04:38 Jergul I have no idea what you are talking about anymore. At any rate Sweden has a low and downward trending rate of conviction, and an upward trending rate of sexual assault, this can be viewed in victim surveys which are no effected by changing judicial definition. I am not interested in comparing nation stats for the very difficulties the study you linked explained. I am not very keen on big cities myself, but it seems you are being a tard. Gang violence rarely effects people not in gangs. So it isn’t a real issue. Seatbelts, that is a good example. Even if the other driver is at fault, you would be foolish for not wearing it. For seb: Most of the victims and perps are immigrants. Removing the cultural control mechanisms that regulate sex and interaction between the sexes is part of the explanation. If you come from a conservative culture to a obscenly sexually liberal one there will be a wide range of issues, from young girls battling family patriarchs to young men ”taking part in the local culture”.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Nov 17 02:07:08 I do agree that if you live in a shitty neighborhood (large cities are large) you do have a moral obligation to move, for yourself and/or your family. An obligation my parents took seriously.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Nov 17 02:29:05 This is all not very surprising for those familiar with the feminist view of intersectionality and the way Foucault's views on power is understood by them. I do not have to read Foucault to see what they are getting at, when they throw him up in your face in the dozen of "debates" and interactions I have had the misfortunate of having with feminists. "Learn something about power, read Foucault". Regardless of whether they have interpreted Foucault "correct" or not. In this world the only relevant power dynamics resides in ethnicity, sex and sexual identity. With white men hetro-normative men sitting on the top. Apparently white hetro normative men are a unified political force. There are no deep disagreements between white American/Swedish/British men, politically or otherwise. It all strays even further away from what we know about our biology, sex and sexual assault, it is about SEX not about exerting power and subjugating people (women), as a general norm. Men are more promiscuous than women, because evolutionarily this is a no brainer. You investment in spreading your genes, is virtually zero. What is true is that there are cultural construct as an added layer to stabilize and regulate the above mentioned biological realities. The institute of marriage for instance, the almost universal negative view on absent fathers and the rapidly eroding negative view on promiscuity among women. It is easy to view these things as oppressive mechanism in 2017 and forgetting the rather simple means by which we have been forced to administrate our lives and societies. It is easy to forget that female sexual liberation was not because of any movement, as much as it was because of the advent of modern contraceptives.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Nov 17 02:41:34 What is rather sad is that, as things like "Tinder" are increasingly more popular, we are at the same time slowly legislating society in such a way that direct IRL interactions are becoming a mine field. Liking someone on tinder is the type of affirmative and risk free consent that you may not get or ask for in real life. Fewer men are willing to marry and settle down, precisely because of the biological hijacking of things like Tinder. The fact that contraceptives have broken this process, does not register because fucking is also very fun. The losers are those women who want to settle down, as their value on this marketplace has diminished. This is all paraphrasing Bret Weinstein, professor in biology.
jergul large member	Fri Nov 17 08:01:58 "Victim surveys" Lol. Lets not use those for anything other than gettting a picture of the extent of sexual crimes, mkay? Particularly not in a context where you are saying comparing international stats is also difficult. But there is nothing difficult with comparing suspects to convictions to get a conviction percentage on that basis. I was being facetious. I don't believe big cities should be abandoned. The only real moral responsibility I see is to report sexual crimes that you are aware of, and for the criminal justice system to vigourously pursue all cases that are likely to result in some form of restitution for the victim. There. I fixed the problem.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Nov 17 10:09:33 That is precisly what I did lulzgul. I referenced the victim survey data to say that rape regardless of changing legal definition, which can misrepresent the data and show a surge, has _actually_ risen. These are surveys done at hospitals, not the ones they send to your home. So they are actually also reliable enough for me to make the feminist argument about what a shitty job society does dealing with this crime. This is about the time where my eyes glaze over and I hear this chant in my head ”12.5% by 2020”. What I have are official numbers, analysis and police reports. And you have a study from 2012 that you don’t understand. We good lulzgul, we good.
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