Utopia Talk / Politics / SJW's tear down Civil War unity memorial

Aeros Member	Mon Aug 14 22:35:26 These people have no respect for the history of this nation, nor its culture. This is the same moral absolutism that ISIS holds. Destroy everything and anything that does not conform to the orthodox beliefs of the cult. http://buz...ons-unity-not-the-confederacy/ Atlanta’s Peace Monument, desecrated by protesters, champions unity, not the Confederacy Protesters took to the streets in Atlanta and elsewhere Sunday night, outraged over the violence in Charlottesville, where a “Unite the Right” rally clashed with counter protesters. Heather Heyer, 32, was killed when a car plowed through a group of pedestrians. James Alex Fields Jr., 20, a failed military aspirant whose former high school teacher said he was “fascinated with Nazism” and “idolized Adolf Hitler,” was charged with second-degree murder and was denied bond on Monday. The Atlanta march traveled from Woodruff Park to Piedmont Park Sunday, where some damaged the Peace Monument, erected in 1911. The sculpture features an angel standing above a Confederate soldier, guiding him to lay down his weapon. “I completely understand what happened,” said Thornton Kennedy, a sixth generation Atlantanwho has taken his children to visit it many times to explain Atlanta’s history. “It’s a statue that, to the observer, looks like a Confederate memorial.” But it was erected to champion unity, not venerate the Confederacy. When the Civil War broke out, members of an Atlanta militia called the Gate City Guard were among the first to take up arms against the North. Afterward, some survivors became part of what would eventually become the Georgia National Guard. Others, who felt they were too old to fight any longer, took up the cause for reconciliation. “These guys realized a national healing needed to take place,” said Kennedy, a history buff who keeps the three-volume set “The Chronicles of the Old Guard” on his bookshelf. “They organized a peace tour of the North, which is really remarkable. These were guys who fought in the Civil War, against Union troops. They would go meet with Union soldiers and began to repair those fissures the war created. It speaks to what we call the Atlanta spirit.” No one, of course, suggests that 1911 Atlanta was the progressive bastion of equality, diversity and inclusion that modern-day Atlanta enjoys. Jim Crow was the law of the land back then. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was decades away. Women were still nine years from having the right to vote. Judged by the mores of their era, however, the Gate City Guard members who sought to heal the rift between North and South would likely have been considered relatively enlightened for their time. The Peace Monument erected that year was something of harbinger of Atlanta’s reputation during the 1960s Civil Rights era as the “City Too Busy to Hate.” “I think Atlanta has done a fairly good job of putting the Civil War in context and moving on from it,” Kennedy said. Sometimes when he’s visiting the park, he becomes an impromptu tour guide, detailing the monument’s meaning to visitors. “I do want everyone to know the history of that statue and know that it truly is a peace monument,” he said. A protester was hurt by metal falling from the edifice as the group tried to tear it down, AJC photographer John Spink reported Sunday night. Tensions rose as the lone policeman on the scene was surrounded by black-clad Antifa protesters shouting “pig.” Black Lives Matter protesters put themselves between the police officer and the Antifa crowd, and the gathering soon dispersed. The former Gate City Guard has given way to a civic group called the Old Guard of the Gate City Guard, whose members participate in historic commemorations including an annual rededication of the Peace Monument. Past commandant John Green, who repudiated the “racist garbage” he saw on display in Charlottesville over the weekend, hopes the Peace Monument will be restored in time for this fall’s ceremony. “We would like for people to know what it is,” he said.
Aeros Member	Mon Aug 14 22:46:35 These idiots probably don't even care about the symbolism of what they did. One thing to tear down the statues of the old dead generals. Quite another to tear down the unity and peace memorials. It basically say's you don't want to preserve the peace. Its an immensely hostile statement of power and privilege, to use the SJW phrasing. These idiots are not bringing about a new era of racial harmony and interstate harmony. They are driving as many wedges as possible into both and hitting it the fucking communist hammer as hard as possible.
Im better then you 2012 UP Football Champ	Mon Aug 14 23:15:49 The Gate City Guard still sound like assholes.
Aeros Member	Tue Aug 15 00:25:49 Yeah, and since they sound like assholes, lets desecrate a monument to peace and unity. Because nothing say's "tolerance and understanding" between the races and the States better then the desecration of a monument raised in the spirit of peace.
Aeros Member	Tue Aug 15 00:32:49 God, this whole thing has me raging mad. So fucking mad. Probably Alcohol fueled too at this time of night, but god damn I am fucking mad as hell. I'm not even a right winger, and this incident makes me want to start polishing my gun. Literally the the opposite side of the same coin of the Nazi scum that tore up Charlottesville over the weekend. Both groups are scum. The difference here though is the scum gets a free pass cuz "they are against hate". Which is bullshit. This action tonight was a deliberate act of hate and violence perpetrated by feral idiots who don't know anything about what they believe beyond the religious orthodoxy of their cult. Just because they wrap themselves in the tenets of "tolerance" does not mean they actually hold these beliefs. They are no better then the chicken hawks who wrap themselves in the American flag to justify repression of liberties and war on random third world countries. The only difference is that at least the Neo-con reptiles have the decency to be obvious about their evil. These regressive leftists have the audacity to claim the moral high ground, and then have their evil be trumpeted as pure and good in the press.
Aeros Member	Tue Aug 15 00:41:27 This will not lead to peace and understanding. Its ripping open old wounds that have never fully healed in this country and rubbing them with Salt.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Aug 15 01:10:12 Can you see the other side though? What does it feel like to have all these statues around for black people?
Dukhat Member	Tue Aug 15 01:34:58 Who cares. It probably wasn't even liberals but some punk ass kids with a passing understanding of politics. Let the cops deal with it. If nobody dies, it's all fixable.
Im better then you 2012 UP Football Champ	Tue Aug 15 01:52:12 Aeros you sound like a fucking Penn State fan during the pedo scandel. For those that forgot they were literally rioting claiming the real tragedy was 80 year old man was forced into "early" retirement. But at least they Penn State students you seem buthurt over a statue (you probaly have never seen) that honors rogue militas in a state you never lived in. So Yeah I guess there is a case for this particular statue to be left up maybe it'll be rebuilt or not or smelted into a Micheal Vick statue who gives a fuck that is not the thing to be outraged.
yankeessuck123 Member	Tue Aug 15 02:45:09 "“I completely understand what happened,” said Thornton Kennedy, a sixth generation Atlantanwho has taken his children to visit it many times to explain Atlanta’s history. “It’s a statue that, to the observer, looks like a Confederate memorial.” " So you're raging about the protesters being like ISIS, when this can be easily explained as ignorance? I'm not sure how wrecking a statue is quite the equivalent of what the Nazis marching through the streets are looking for.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Aug 15 03:59:35 Aeros - Tue Aug 15 00:32:49 For once I am 110% in agreement with you. I missed what happened on Sunday, but I hear wg=hat you are saying. Ibty - So Yeah I guess there is a case for this particular statue to be left up... You should have stopped right there. yankee - So you're raging about the protesters being like ISIS, when this can be easily explained as ignorance? I certainly hope you don't think that ISIS is in any way intelligent? The thugs that desecrated that statue are no better than the Taliban that destroyed the Bamiyan Buddhas or the ISIS monsters that destroyed that ancient city. What they did is dis[icable and inexcusable.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Aug 15 04:08:36 *-what *-despicable
Paramount Member	Tue Aug 15 05:24:47 "The thugs that desecrated that statue are no better than the Taliban that destroyed the Bamiyan Buddhas or the ISIS monsters that destroyed that ancient city. " Or the Americans who destroyed the statue of Saddam Hussein. Here's an idea. Why don't you build a museum of tolerance on top of the graves of the confederate soldiers?
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Aug 15 05:27:29 paramounted, big difference.
Trolly Member	Tue Aug 15 05:35:40 Just as its a big difference for a few dumbasses causing property destruction and then people comparing them to ISIS which is laughable at best.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Aug 15 05:40:13 I had enough of your stupidity yesterday. -30-
Trolly Member	Tue Aug 15 05:48:16 I didnt post yesterday? And again, comparing those in ISIS to a group of punks is a considerable difference.
The Politician Member	Tue Aug 15 06:19:13 Aeros, why do you not get so upset when Civil Rights Movement icons and statues get desecrated or vandalized?
yankeessuck123 Member	Tue Aug 15 06:52:27 Paramount Member Tue Aug 15 05:24:47 Here's an idea. Why don't you build a museum of tolerance on top of the graves of the confederate soldiers? Well, Arlington National Cemetary has thousands upon thousands of Union war dead buried on General Lee's former estate. That feels like a pretty good "fuck you".
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Aug 15 07:10:27 What's going on now is a fight over who is going to control the historical narrative.
murder Member	Tue Aug 15 07:11:10 "Its ripping open old wounds that have never fully healed" You don't think all these memorials to treason and the enslavement of blacks has anything to do with that, do you? I refuse to believe that anyone who walks upright is really this stupid. Lets try to explain this in a language that you may be able to relate to. Lets say that someone errected a monument to the guys that blew some of your buddies to hell in Iraq, and placed it across the street from your home so you had to see it every day, and then peppered 1/2 the US with similar monuments ... do you think that might rub a nerve raw?
Aeros Member	Tue Aug 15 11:45:11 History is never so absolute. Several of the Union States were slave holding States as well it should be noted. And Lee (A Slave owner) was offered command of the Federal Army by Lincoln. It is very easy to judge a condemn dead men, because dead men can't defend themselves. Its even easier to do it from the high pedestal of modern morality. Concepts of which did not exist in the time period you are judging. They were developed over time, and as a result of the people who won the arguments over time. Had the confederacy won the war, your beliefs would be considered the immoral ones and what is now seen as an act of Treason would instead be seen as an act of patriotic rebellion. Monuments to the war serve as reminders that it happened. People can put whatever values they want onto the monuments and contextualize them any way they wish.
Forwyn Member	Tue Aug 15 11:52:19 "Well, Arlington National Cemetary has thousands upon thousands of Union war dead buried on General Lee's former estate. That feels like a pretty good "fuck you"." Why would it be? Lee was a supporter of reconciliation. He had, what, 30,000 men at Appomattox? He could have very easily wreaked havoc on the nation with a guerrilla war for years.
Aeros Member	Tue Aug 15 11:56:54 His men would have done it too. He told them to go home instead.
obaminated Member	Tue Aug 15 11:59:59 The civil war ended 150 years. I sincerely doubt these statues cause people to lose sleep at night. If you actually listen to the incoherent rants coming from the left, I'm assuming it is leftists committing these crimes, you'll find it has very little to do with logic and historical reason and everything to do with emotion, passion and victimhood.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Aug 15 12:14:35 First of all the concept of not owning slaves very much existed back then. They are not being judged by modern morals, they do not need to be judged at all, for people to not want their statues adorning the public sphere. Do you ever stop to think, this living in some halcyon days that never was, may be why the wounds never got to heal? Why the south is still, "the south"?
obaminated Member	Tue Aug 15 12:24:12 This is not the case. Because blacks in LA are far more rude and aggressive than blacks I've met in the south. If you look a black from LA in the eyes, they will immediately start mad dogging you. Blacks in the south however, see it for what it is, a gesture of hello. Remember, people from both sides of that riot came from outside of the south.
Forwyn Member	Tue Aug 15 12:33:40 "Why the south is still, "the south"?" Because it got torched? There were plenty of slaveholding Union areas where the distinction was, and is, less visible.
obaminated Member	Tue Aug 15 12:47:14 I think it's an outsiders myth that the south is somehow dangerous, like some post apocalyptic wasteland. It isn't an Indian reservation. The only bad parts of the south, like the rest of the United States, is the urban ghetto areas. I won't get into why those are universally bad areas or why they tend to be a specific race.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Aug 15 13:11:01 That was in connection to what I said. I mean to say the south is still the south, because to some degree the south never let go of the past. The souths identity is built around the most divisive and darkest period of your union. Ooo look we found a couple noble sounding stories in the swamp of shit and human suffering, sounds legit.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Aug 15 13:17:51 We kinda have sympathy for Germany, for not picking the period 1930-1945 to pin the core of their modern identity on. You would be correct in pointing out that Germany is destroying itself in other ways, but somewhere between southern slavery and german cuckolding lies our future.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Aug 15 13:20:19 That last sentence, did not paint a very pleasant picture of our future, but you know what I mean.
Dukhat Member	Tue Aug 15 15:06:30 If anything unifies the far-right, it's not just the fact that they rush to judgement and make uninformed decisions; it's that they have zero empathy and would hurt anyone else a lot if it would their own lives a little bit. So while your argument makes sense to those of us that have even a little bit of heart murder, it means absolutely nothing to the likes of the far-right posters on this board.
Seb Member	Tue Aug 15 15:28:25 Nim: "and german cuckolding lies our future" Do you ever stop to look at your language? You are adopting a terminology used by the far right discourse in America, that references a genre of porn that is about "other men sleeping with our women", and which is often about limp dicked white men's wives sleeping with well hung black men. Do you honestly think you can talk credibly about race when you liken Germany's pretty reasonable policies with the the starkest (sexualised) fears of a bunch of swivel eyed racists?
Seb Member	Tue Aug 15 15:29:59 You desire to ingratiate yourself with what Hillary described - it is increasingly clear accurately - as "deplorables" by adopting their language is rather pathetic. This is the faux centrism that tries to meet bad ideas half-way, rather than finding a third way.
Forwyn Member	Tue Aug 15 15:57:09 "The souths identity is built around the most divisive and darkest period of your union." Partly. But largely not. This Civil War nonsense has been largely silent for years, decades, until fairly recently with the advent of BLM etc. that want to destroy memorials and statues. Yeah, we get it. Some of them were just Civil Rights-era backlash. And we'll still argue about causes or justification of the war. But no, statues of long-dead generals are neither so offensive that they need to be torn down, nor are they so inherently important to southern history and heritage that they have to remain. People just have their inherently strong opinions; either we keep our history despite some offense, or we drum up even more offense to tear it down. Rather, people identify with regions and states as a general principle because there are so many inherent differences between them. Several states compare to Euro nations in size and population on their own. While there's plenty of overlap, i.e. a Texan can drive to Iowa and mostly fit in fine, there are cultural and ideological differences. I doubt the Danish identify by their wars with Finland - but if some Finnish provocateurs came into Denmark and started tearing down statues and digging up graves, you might find some very sudden and very strong opinions on the matter.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Aug 15 16:09:29 "Germany's pretty reasonable policies" This is why people call you a retard, seb.
Seb Member	Tue Aug 15 16:35:51 Sam: Which policies do you object to, exactly?
murder Member	Tue Aug 15 17:33:53 "History is never so absolute." Aeros: So you'd be fine with the US being littered with monuments to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, right? Right? You're full of shit up to your eyeballs. How about Ho Chi Minh? He's part of our history too!
Pillz Member	Tue Aug 15 17:59:47 ^ hates America
Aeros Member	Tue Aug 15 18:03:37 Arrests have begun in the North Carolina toppling incident. The idiots had the gall to hold a press conference asking for amnesty. http://www...2017/08/durham-arrests/537015/ Arrests Begin Following Durham Confederate Statue Toppling Moments after a press conference demanding amnesty for protesters, sheriff’s deputies arrested Taqiyah Thompson, who placed a rope around a Confederate monument Monday night. DURHAM, N.C.—Sheriff’s deputies have begun arresting protesters who tore down a monument to Confederate veterans in front of the old Durham County courthouse Monday night. Taqiyah Thompson, who climbed a ladder and put a rope around the statue before a crowd tugged it off its base, was arrested by deputies around 4:45 p.m., immediately following a press conference at North Carolina Central University, in which she had defended her actions and others demanded amnesty for all involved. A spokesperson for the sheriff’s office confirmed that deputies had begun executing warrants, but she did not immediately know how many. “I did the right thing,” Thompson said during a Workers World Party press conference on the steps of a building at the historically black college. “Everyone who was there—the people did the right thing. The people will continue to keep making the right choices until every Confederate statue is gone, until white supremacy is gone. That statue is where it belongs. It needs to be in the garbage.” Thompson was one of several speakers at the press conference. Loan Tran said the group was demanding amnesty for all those involved in the project, including that the sheriff’s office and district attorney drop all charges. They also wanted meetings with the county commission, and criticized Governor Roy Cooper, a Democrat, for his statement Monday night that summarily pulling down statues was the wrong way to deal with them. “That statue glorifies the conditions that oppressed people live in and it had to go,” Thompson said. Local officials have protested that they had no power to pull the statue down, even if they wanted to, citing a state law passed in 2015 that says no historical monuments can be permanently removed without permission from the state. But Tran said that excuse was unacceptable. She demanded that commissioners call for symbols to come down, and she said her group would work with them to discuss some ideas, though she didn’t say what. The county’s response has been somewhat bifurcated. On the one hand, the county commission released a statement after the protest that condemned racism but neither mentioned the statue nor criticized its removal. Sheriff Mike Andrews, however, promised during a press conference earlier on Tuesday to bring felony charges against those who pulled the statue down. “Let me be clear, no one is getting away with what happened,” Andrews said. Cooper, meanwhile, offered a more aggressive statement late Tuesday afternoon on Medium, demanding that the General Assembly repeal the law preventing removal of monuments. “Cities, counties, and the state must have the authority and opportunity to make these decisions,” Cooper wrote. “Second, I’ve asked the Department of Natural and Cultural Resources to determine the cost and logistics of removing Confederate monuments from state property as well as alternatives for their placement at museums or historical sites where they can be studied in context.” Cooper also said legislators should reject a bill, currently under consideration, that would grant immunity to drivers who strike protesters in streets. Even as the WWP was holding its press conference, a whisper went around organizers as word of raids by officers spread. Not long afterward, Thompson was taken into custody by deputies and bundled into an unmarked car. Officers said they had a warrant but did not display it. Moments earlier, Thompson had been arguing that today’s police are agents of white supremacy—in a lineage with Confederate soldiers, and in an alliance with the Ku Klux Klan. “The statue in Durham, North Carolina, said ‘to the boys who wore the gray,’” she said. “If we understand history, we know that those boys who wore the gray, today they wear blue, and they wear sheets over their heads.”
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Aug 15 18:06:45 >>You are adopting a terminology used by the far right discourse in America, that references a genre of porn that is about "other men sleeping with our women", and which is often about limp dicked white men's wives sleeping with well hung black men. << Interesting that you would not mention anything about my stereotyping of southerners, but be offended by rightwing satire on German immigration policy. Anyway, I think it's hilarious.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Aug 15 18:17:59 "by adopting their language is rather pathetic." Your sperm count is pathetic. http://www.bbc.com/news/health-40719743 "Researchers assessing the results of nearly 200 studies say sperm counts among men from North America, Europe, Australia, and New Zealand, seem to have halved in less than 40 years." Some say it is all the hormones in the drinking water. It has feminized the men of your society. Testosterone levels are lower as well. Does not bode well for your kind, evolutionary speaking, you are going extinct.
murder Member	Tue Aug 15 18:20:00 "^ hates America" I sure as hell hate this America. A comet can't arrive soon enough.
obaminated Member	Tue Aug 15 18:40:57 What America did you like, murder? Also Nim, wouldn't you count yourself as European as you consume the same water as mountme?
murder Member	Tue Aug 15 19:08:29 The one where the racists still had enough shame to wear hoods.
Seb Member	Wed Aug 16 02:42:05 Nim: What bit about southerners? And it's not the satire, it's the language you use to do so, and what it says about you. On the surface - apeing (perhaps without thought) some of the worst philosophies of the far right to ingratiate yourself to them and establish your credentials as someone who sees and sympathises with both sides. On another level, completely incapable of analysing the underlying principles or worse - subscribing to them. It's one thing to say "Immigration puts pressure on society through lowering wages and feeding a sense of loss of control", it's another to say "I oppose immigration of such and such a race because they are genetically below par". I don't think you have noticed that our point of explosive disagreement is when you slipped from one to the other. And now you are using openly racist terminology like Cuck, which is hilarious given you are the text book definition of the scary foreign man "cuckholding" western societies by stealing our women. Whether you realise it or not, your endorsing the people who want you and your family to "go back where you came from". It's possible to see and understand this stuff while also rejecting it. Not everything you understand needs to be empathised or sympathised with. Sometimes, it just needs to be condemned.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Aug 16 04:35:48 That is fine seb, I can enjoy satire of the left and the right, without becoming a nazi. This seems to be a true concearn in your circle of weak willed snowflakes. Deal with it. Traditionally the left has been much better at political satire, it has been organized, Charlie Hebdo and the Daily show to name a few recent. The rights political satire, at least currently is born in the chaos of Internet memes. If you don't like it, that is fine. I think it is hilarious, specially when leftist are angered by it. Only true idiots are angered by roasting and satire. Religious people have traditinally been insensed by jokes of their orthodoxies. Immigration policy is one of those, apparently. Our point of explosive disagreement are imo because of: 1. You having zero sense of humor 2. You acting morally superior because of nr 1 3. You reading WTBesq naziphobia into everything 4. You being factually incorrect about everything 5. Your dishonest (or mentally challenged) understanding of what I say 6. You saying that your dishonesty is scientific rigor 7. I think you are a hypocrite Those are thing off the top of my head that I feel are always in the way when I am talking to you about anything remotely contentious. It is funny that cultural leftist of today have become the conservative religious traditionalist of yesterday. Policing social behavior, right down "watch your language" LOL :) CONTENT WARNING EXPLICIT SATIRE FEELINGS MAY BE HURT There is one more thing and probably the main reason we can not get a long. I enjoy self-depricating humor and I just can not stand people who take themselves too seriously. I grew up listening to rap music and George Carlin. This is who I am and it won't change because you can't tell the difference between rightwing satire and nazi propaganda. TL:DR Deal with it, bro.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Aug 16 04:55:28 The "cuck" concept like all satire is funny because it has a grain of truth in it. Western society has become more feminine, and agreeableness as you have learned is more common in women. Read psychology to find out why beeing agreeable is good for survival as a female. So the argument goes, that as their own societies males become less male and less prone to violence, some other group of males arrive at the gates. They have no problems with "gender roles" or "toxic masculinity". They celebrate them. Since a woman has an innate value in having a womb, she will be spared most of the deadly violence. That is if she remains agreeable :-) This is an evolutionary survival tactic for females. Ever seen a male lion take over a pride? Does not look pretty, the females could risk their lives to protect their cubs, or live another year and have new babies with the obviously stronger male. It is funny because it has a kernel of truth.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Aug 16 05:21:20 You are saddely mistaken if you think female ascension to political power will not also bring with it a new set of challanges. We already know what to expect from male power, the type of insane violence men are capable of when our societies become a giant game of dominance. Basically you are becoming cucks for these reasons. You have become feminized too quickly while large swaths of the world are not. You are allowing immigration from these parts of the world. Your women (the group) are naturally inclined to be accepting of outsiders even if it means the destruction of their current social order. Obaminated The water theory is interesting, like the lead pipes of Rome :-) But most likely in both cases not the entire answer. There are cultural forces at work, like I mentioned the ascension of women to political power, feminism and the pathologizing of male behavior as sickness, the hatred towards males. The pussification of the west would not be an issue if the entire world was being pussified equally. The problem is that it is not. Some places are and these places happen to concurrently have less babies. Supply and demand of economy has a pull effect on immigration flows. You do the math.
chen Member	Wed Aug 16 05:25:30 Looks like Baltimore removed some of their statues overnight. More cities will probably follow. I don't like America taking a knee jerk dump on our history, but it is a bit ironic that the Nazi protest intended to keep the statues will just hasten their destruction.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Aug 16 05:32:19 I deadlift and squat, so I should be fine though :D
Aeros Member	Wed Aug 16 09:04:46 The Nazis could fare less about the statues. They want them torn down so that more rage can get whipped up.
murder Member	Wed Aug 16 09:26:57 You're wrong. They do care. Those monuments and the Confederate flags are the equivalent of animals marking their territory. They are a constant reminder to both sides that whatever the law may now say, they are still active, they are still in control, and they will ultimately prevail. And they currently are in case you haven't checked the scoreboard lately. Those symbols of resistance matter.
Aeros Member	Wed Aug 16 11:27:31 A lot more goes into Nazism then just Racial supremacy. These people are also highly traditionalist, authoritarian, believe democracies are weak, etc etc etc. Many beliefs that would have made even the most hardened Confederate General turn green. Lets not forget the Secretary of State for the CSA was a Jew. Saying Richard Spencer and his crowd "support the confederacy" is disingenuous. The feelings around the Confederacy are simply a tool that they can use to further enflame public passions and get their message out into the public space. This riot in Charlottesville, far from hurting their cause has actively helped it. Much like the failed beer hall putsch, the goal is not to win the argument. The goal is to get louder then the opposition. The more noise they can make, the better. It does not help we have a noise maker in chief in the White House, but to say there are parallels between Nazi Germany and the Confederate States is lunacy.
obaminated Member	Wed Aug 16 12:27:57 So murder preferred the America when the KKK was actively lynching blacks as well as was a legitimate political force. So, is it just murder who has become unhinged by the Charlottesville riot?
TJ Member	Wed Aug 16 12:28:32 The statues are a reminder of when brothers killed brothers over preserving one Union of States and the failure of adding into that Union fully functional races. Perspective is everything... I don't view the North or South statutes as a total historical victory or loss, but they are a reminder of how tension unnecessarily transforms into rage. Tension is good at working out differences, but rage only increases the difficulty of Union. In mobile societies, it is my opinion, both North and South statues should be placed in a historical museum together out of everyday public view, not destroyed, but presented as a reminder of what I'm saying. I believe that is a reasonable compromise toward improving a reality of Union completeness. Hate and rage are not achievements. Too many are willing to pick up the baby rather than allowing it to cry itself to sleep. The behavior keeps all the hate groups conscientiously awake, especially the Nazi's, KKK, and all the other hateful supremacy sub cultures. Such groups should never be allowed an equal playground. The atmosphere only intensifies the hate as awakened rage. You can only defeat the rage by subduing the hate. They are emotions that will always be present, but should never be allowed to evolve. As an individual you can achieve peace in the eye of the storm, but when you move from the eye the intensity increases.
Seb Member	Wed Aug 16 14:34:20 Nim: Ah, the old satire argument. Let me put three different responses to that on three different levels. One: facile - wren't you the one that was throwing your toys out of the pram at being hyperbolically compared to a NAZI? Two: more serious - the point about this kind of satire is, as you say, the grain of truth. The Germans are not literally being cuckolded in the literal sense of the term. But the underlying point of this satire is as I described - it's not about immigration in principle, it's about *who* is immigrating and their skin colour. Your satire makes sense only in the sense that you are endorsing those ideas to some extent. Three - even if you are genuinely confused about what is meant by Cuck - we are at a time where there are actual fucking NAZI's roaming the street with actual fucking swastikas, in the US, in your country, in much of Europe. Has it occurred to you that your glib and misconstructed "satire" is the cover for a lot of this. "It's satire", "We're trolling" say many, with a glint in their eye. No. They mean it. Not all of them, but many of them. And they are normalising it. And as they gain the upper hand in the culture war, at what point do those along for the ride confuse the thrills of offending people with the thrills of intimidating them? You are riding the tiger - and you are being very unserious about a very serious thing. As for your discourse "you are feminised" - I don't see anything feminine about my position at all. That's your own twisted projection of gender onto policy, and kind of demonstrates my point. Remember not so long ago you were ranting about my bloodthirsty, warmongering and colonial desire to intervene in Syria (precisely because it would lead us to choose between either accepting refugees, or turning them back either into the sea or to their executors). [Side note, you've never really reconciled those two satisfactorily - you don't believe in stabilisation, you don't believe in taking refugees, so what does happen to the refugees? Shot at the border, drowned in the sea, deported back to where they came from?] Anyway, your use of the word "Cuck" says more about you than it does about me. It says things about how you perceive the world and your fundamental principles - things you have denied but which you are increasingly coming to understand and embrace. Your real problem is, the movement you are in will not embrace you. Not in the flesh. Where you have carve outs, exceptions, etc. that allow you to reconcile your world view, those are subtleties and cognitive dissonances your fellow travellers do not share. And there's nothing more "unmanly" the the cowardice of hiding your position behind a veil of irony for fear of being judged on it.
Seb Member	Wed Aug 16 14:35:45 (I wouldn't say "feminine", because there isn't much feminine about it - but certainly, a lack of courage, backbone and conviction that generally goes along with what we would recognise as traditionally masculine traits - I'd say "childish", that of a foolish boy who has not yet grown up and knows he can rely on others to clean up his mess.).
Seb Member	Wed Aug 16 14:36:37 chen: *looks at Baltimore on a map, looks at the front line in the civil war*. Hmm. History. Right.
Seb Member	Wed Aug 16 14:38:32 Aeros: So, why are so many of the "unite the right" symbols things incorporate motifs like SS style lightning and swastikas? Also, remember the NAZI's looked at Jim Crow laws and got their "one drop" racial purity laws from - ahem - the American south.
Aeros Member	Wed Aug 16 15:25:38 Uh, I've never once said the unite the right crowd weren't Nazi's. They were, for the most part. And yes, the Nazi's did borrow many of their race laws from the American South. My point is that there is more that goes into Nazi ideology then just racial animus. Israel borrowed heavily from the Westminster style system of government, but their politics or implementation of it are nothing like the United Kingdoms.
Aeros Member	Wed Aug 16 15:26:02 *as an example
Cherub Cow Member	Wed Aug 16 15:50:15 The real tragedy of this story: "Baltimore Pigeons Shocked To Find Beloved Shitting Statues Gone" [Onion News in Photos] http://www...find-beloved-shitting-st-56668
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Aug 18 07:16:35 Ah the old I am hypocrite without a sense of humor. How many times have you been outraged about Colbert, Jon Stewart, Trevor Noah (the list is long Seb) lampooning rightwingers and conservatives? That is not a real question, because we know the answer. Traditionally the satire and ridicoule has been aimed towards the religious right, because they took themselves and their divine values sooo seriously. People who take themselves very Seriously (capital S) are also very easy to make fun of. Not any more, the ascending religion of day is not Christianity or even Islam (despite population figures) and not in the country where I live or the USA. Tough shit buddy! This is not riding a tiger, this is riding a donkey. You being the donkey. "As for your discourse "you are feminised" - I don't see anything feminine about my position at all." That is because you view a society being feminized as something negative. For overly masculanized society, take a look at Russia or anywhere in the ME. "Remember not so long ago you were ranting about my bloodthirsty, warmongering and colonial desire to intervene in Syria" None of those words actually. Your naive, uneducated, first order logic desire to intervene in Syria. I have consistently used these kinds of words. Your inability to learn anything from past failure intervening in places whose culture and societies you have demonstrated you do not understand. You can disagree about those things, but those are not the reasons I have given you. I do not think you are evil, I think you are dumb and dumb people do not provide stability to anyone. "It says things about how you perceive the world and your fundamental principles - things you have denied but which you are increasingly coming to understand and embrace." I know what I know and I know that you are full of shit. That is all this has ever been about, everything else is fireworks. "And there's nothing more "unmanly" the the cowardice of hiding your position behind a veil of irony for fear of being judged on it." Nothing quite as hypocritical as someone who calls himself a feminist and then uses traditional male/female negative (this actually mattering) gender stereotypes to describe others. Women can not be brave? Isn't this illegal in the UK now btw? Who is hiding behind what exactly! Or where you satirizing me? Either way I you are hypocrite. The math proves it!
chuck Member	Fri Aug 18 10:56:55 obaminated talking about how "the South" really is from, wait, San Diego was it?
jergul large member	Fri Aug 18 11:02:42 Nazis of any age just coopt stuff and make it up. 1922-1945 is not enough time to create a mildly coherent mythology (in before LOTR).
Seb Member	Fri Aug 18 11:11:53 Nim: That's a different thing. I don't object to you *offending* people by calling them cucks, I object to the very nature of what that criticism implies. Calling people cucks is essentially criticising people for not subscribing to a racial purity agenda. You could ditch the word cuck and say the same thing in neutral, inoffensive language and I'd still find the idea deeply objectionable. Your weird an frankly off the wall attempt to argue it's really just a hyperbolic way of objecting to female involvement in politics just makes it worse to me. What the actual fuck Nim? Did your wife throw you out once you started attending NAZI rallies?
Seb Member	Fri Aug 18 11:17:20 Nim: I'm sorry, you seem to be suggesting I think politics being "feminised" is negative. Firstly, I don't think it is. Female participation doesn't make politics feminine. Why do you have to gender everything? For someone who doesn't believe in gender theory, this is very self contradictory. Secondly, you were trying to explain how "cuck" is not about race but a satire on "feminisation" of politics. If you don't think that's negative, are you actually suggesting cuck is intended not as an insult or offensive? In which case, how is it satirical? Your thinking has become highly disordered of late.
Seb Member	Fri Aug 18 11:17:21 Nim: I'm sorry, you seem to be suggesting I think politics being "feminised" is negative. Firstly, I don't think it is. Female participation doesn't make politics feminine. Why do you have to gender everything? For someone who doesn't believe in gender theory, this is very self contradictory. Secondly, you were trying to explain how "cuck" is not about race but a satire on "feminisation" of politics. If you don't think that's negative, are you actually suggesting cuck is intended not as an insult or offensive? In which case, how is it satirical? Your thinking has become highly disordered of late.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Aug 18 13:39:53 "but somewhere between southern slavery and german cuckolding lies our future." These are as your PhD level intellect has pointed out offensive charicatures partly based on the biases that groups have about each other. No in fact you only pointed this out about "german cucking". So half a point. The point of the multiposts ended in the truth lying somewhere inbetween those absurdities. 1. Fail at reading comprehension 2. Full retard outrage 3. Act morally superior Classic seb
Seb Member	Fri Aug 18 17:40:56 Nim: Just came across this regarding my point 3 above: Daily stormer founder, who organised the unite the right rally, says it was all just irony. http://www...er-ironic-nazis-andrew-anglin/ I don't know if you think you are being clever with your post about, but southern slavery isn't a caricature, there was literally a war fought over the issue, and the dividing line of that war is precisely what defines which parts of the US are referred to as "the south". Wheareas there is nothing "cucked" about Germany that I can see, other than it continues to uphold the principles of Asylum as codified in international law (as set out in the the 1940's and early 1950's, a time of notoriously "feminised" politics, I'm sure we all agree). Southern slavery is a simple statement of historical fact. "Cucked" Germany at the very least tells us a lot about what you think about Germany, and therefore your principles. We don't disagree factually - at least I hope not - about German policies. What we disagree on is whether those policies are morally and ethically sound. Like I said, your thinking is muddled. So no, the truth does not lie "somewhere in between" - the truth is the fact of German policy. The point of disagreement is on the morals and ethics of that policy, and the truth does not lie "somewhere in between" as that is a normative choice. And when you use terminology like cucked, what that term implies is that those policies are, in principle, wrong because it is lack of fidelity to ethnic purity. And there is no "in between" here, no compromise to be had on that point. I do not agree with those principles. None of this takes a PhD level intellect - but it does take a modicum of self reflection and introspection. I'd advise you to do some thinking. You are backing yourself into the wrong side of history.
Seb Member	Fri Aug 18 17:43:38 I really hope you are just using "cucked" because all the other cool kids are using it and you haven't really thought about what it actually means. But the whole weird rant about Feminised politics doesn't leave me much hope.
pillz Member	Fri Aug 18 17:57:16 "None of this takes a PhD level intellect - but it does take a modicum of self reflection and introspection." You got this part of your post right at least. You're failing on the self reflection and introspection portion, seb, because you believe there is nothing wrong with turning the native populace of a nation into an ethnic (and eventually linguistic) minority in their own home (country). And the failing you're making here is that somehow, inexplicably, you don't believe in the idea that people should have the right to deny entry to foreigners and decide their own policies - rather it is better for the 'enlightened' political and business elites to do that for them and flood their countries with people who're culturally and ideologically opposites. You have absolutely sworn off any notion of meritocracy by insisting that simply existing is enough to receive the fruits of labour of other people. You've also sworn off any notion of ethics in the process, by refusing to acknowledge that the people you advocate for are dangerous (in many ways) and in your complicity and advocacy for the demographic shifts taking place in the west.
jergul large member	Fri Aug 18 19:18:35 Pillz This is hardly the time to delve into indigenous peoples' issues [there is historically nothing wrong with that - or how is your cherokee?] Legislature sets the terms and conditions for cross border migration. This is important because much of the law is multilateral or encoded in international treaties. Redistribution is key to everything. No amount of citing half of Locke's basic argument will change that. Advocating that the rule of law must be followed does not mean advocacy for any group that may benefit from the law.
pillz Member	Fri Aug 18 21:08:57 I am not talking about native rights because I said country and nation, as in nation state. There is no Cherokee nation state, theyre a minority with special privileges for some reason, but whatever. There is no reason to radically alter demographics with immigration except to supplant the preexisting citizenry.
jergul large member	Sat Aug 19 02:05:13 Pillz The Terra nullus basis for your argument is invalid. For the US: You should have been more careful in what you conquered if you did not want the conquered to gain a strong demographic foothold in the nation-state as a whole. But the general point still stands: Legislature sets the terms and condictions for migration. The path forward to any future is through changes in law.
Seb Member	Sat Aug 19 02:37:38 Pillz: There is no basis for your fears on a quantitative basis. And you are confusing nationality with ethnicity. It's perfectly possible for immigrants to adopt the nationality of their host country. I don't think many countries define nationality by skin colour. One did try to do that which pops to mind, but Nim has been at pains to distance himself from that particular one.
jergul large member	Sat Aug 19 02:47:57 Seb The hispanic "threat" is real. But it actually amounts to indigenous cultures resurgence.
Seb Member	Sat Aug 19 05:43:51 Jergul: America is a Nation state, not an ethnic state. It's very principle on founding was to transcend ethnicity, and rejection of bloodline as the basis of political power. There's no Hispanic threat. Further, the talk of "white" ethnicity is absurd. Theres no such thing really - European ethnicities and nationalities have always been deeply split into factions that violently fight each other. You have in Charlottesville people of Slavic descent marching under flags of a political philosophy that wanted to send Slavs to liquidation camps White cultures are celebrated all the time: the Irish have their days, the Germans theirs etc. Hispanic identity too is deeply fractured. Latin Americans don't view European Iberians as part of their cultural grouping, and differentiate between nationalities as strongly as Europeans do (while embracing Portuguese speaking Brazil). It's possible to be a black Hispanic. Basically, Latin Americans do not perceive of themselves as a collective in the same way that White US people perceive them as "Hispanics". The only reason there is such a thing as Black culture is because in many parts of the world there are transported populations who can't trace their ethnic heritage back further than their families last slave owner. They have formed a new identity as a Black largely because that's the identity white Americans have imposed on them. It's why there is so much tension between recent black immigrants into western countries that *do* retain a cultural hinterland beyond slavery, and those that are descendents of slaves. Their experiences are not the same. The likes of Sam and Pillz though, they can't perceive any of this. And as long as Nim keeps scrounging around bad and misinterpreted science to provide pseudo-objective support for his dodgy views (which also act as a slippery slope into deeper prejudice) - he too will lose sight of the difference also.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Aug 19 06:17:11 Yes there is a charicature in southern slavery that is alive and well today. The "rebel", racist republican redneck, the 4 Rs. The guy or gal that has rooted his or her identity in the good ole south. A stereotype leftwing liberals have lived on for decades. But you sould only be offended by things that criticize and ridicule you and the policies you argue for. Classic hypocrite. I will not qualify every argument to innoculate them from misrepresentation by you. Your constant injection of arguments to points that are never made, apparently qualifies as intelligence in your circle. I will just keep pointing out what a full of shit hypocrite you are - works for me. Until such a time you act like an adult and appologize for constantly smearing everyone that disagrees with you. There are no differences to speak of between Ctrl Leftist like you and the Alt right boogie man you so vigilantly check everyone elses closet for. "but it does take a modicum of self reflection and introspection" I am glad you are over thinking your PhD is currency when talking about subject you admit you lack basic knowledge in. Hilarious that you have now switched to claiming possess the very traits I have consistently accused you of lacking. At this point it is best to fake your own death.
jergul large member	Sat Aug 19 06:56:27 Seb "America is a Nation state, not an ethnic state. It's very principle on founding was to transcend ethnicity, and rejection of bloodline as the basis of political power." The rejection of bloodline is not the same thing as attempting to transcend ethnicity. Yes, it is a nation-state. Ethnic states are a later invention. Of course there is not hispanic "threat" Hence my use of air quotations. Societies evolve as the sum of their parts interact and change. It is what it is.
Seb Member	Sat Aug 19 21:40:58 Nim: You appear to be engaging in a straw man argument with yourself. When you said "southern slavery" I assumed you meant the actual southern slavery that actually happened and which there was an actual war over and then which was to some extent great continued via Jim crow laws and indentured servitude. You seem to want to use the term "southern slavery" to mean "mere" servere racial discrimination in a contemporary legal environment. I don't think you can possibly blame me for misconstruing the one from the other.
Seb Member	Sat Aug 19 21:42:45 Jergul: Not the same, but they did both. Recall discussions on German Vs English. They definitely wanted to transcend European ethnicities.
Seb Member	Sat Aug 19 21:47:05 Nim: Re PhD, I've never suggested this makes my arguments inherently stronger, only to point out where you are abusing the scientific method. In that my qualifications do matter, and are only an issue where you erroneously claim bogus arguments are somehow "scientific". Stop spouting shit claiming it's 'science" and this issue goes away
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sat Aug 19 21:57:27 If you tear down a historic statue then you are no better than a book burner.
Cold Rod Member	Sat Aug 19 22:11:30 So you're saying that Trump is no better than a book burner....got it.
jergul large member	Sat Aug 19 22:13:04 Seb That was from the 1880s. The emergence of zionism perhaps the most famous poster child.
Seb Member	Sun Aug 20 11:20:32 Nim: "Yes there is a caricature in southern slavery that is alive and well today." Have you looked at the people marching to "protect" this statue (erected in 1924, in the midst of a push back against civil rights) - waving their confederate flags along side nazi ones, and chanting jews will not replace us - are you seriously telling me that it's an unfair caricature rather than an accurate representation of at least a significant fraction of those people? In contract, I can find almost nobody that can genuinely said to fit the description that these guys use by "Cuck", which is to say would embrace the intolerance of Islamism. Rather, what motivates them is long standing principles of freedom and tolerance, rule of law etc. So once again, no, the truth does not lie in the middle. As for "inoculating" your argument - bare in mind my issue is with your embracing of and continued use of the term Cuck and what it says about you - not your ridiculous straw man that "there is blame on both sides" or whatever you are getting at. The hypocrisy is imagined, you misunderstood and continue to misunderstand the nature of the criticism - probably because you really don't want to address the issue of just how much "alt right" thinking you are adopting.
murder Member	Mon Aug 21 07:07:33 "So murder preferred the America when the KKK was actively lynching blacks as well as was a legitimate political force." They are still killing blacks ... they are just wearing police uniforms now. And it doesn't get much more legitimate than electing a President.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Mon Aug 21 07:20:00 Tearing down a statue is no better than burning books. That is next on the radical left's agenda.
Cold Rod Member	Mon Aug 21 16:40:35 "Tearing down a statue is no better than burning books. " Dumb.
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