Utopia Talk / Politics / Islamic State, scorched earth

Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 00:41:40 800 year old Al Nouri Mosque in Mosul, obliterated by Islamic State. It was here that Al-Baghdadi declared the Caliphate. Every street is booby trapped, they fight for every building, if it isn't bombed by air it is blown up by VBIEDs, tanks and artillery. Read an article recently about how the education system in Mosul was in total shambles. All textbooks burned and replaced by IS textbooks, schools destroyed in the fighting, 90% of people took their kids out of schools to not have their kids brainwashed. 4 years lost...
Hrothgar Member	Thu Jun 22 03:33:23 Yeah it's stunning the damage that group has inflicted on antiquities of their f'ing home lands.
Paramount Member	Thu Jun 22 05:50:42 They are clearly not muslims. They are enemies of muslims, as well as enemies of everyone else. Although, I heard on the news that they said that IS denied it was them who destroyed it. They blame US and coalition bombings. So basically everyone is blaming everyone. So who knows. We get propaganda coming from all parties. The first victim of war is da truth!
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 06:35:58 We know by looking at the video that clearly shows a controlled demolition and rigged demolition. Why are they clearly not Muslims?
Neverwoods Member	Thu Jun 22 07:25:17 I think he wants to make a distinguish of westernised Muslims the none practising and Radical Muslims. The problem is The radicals are more Muslims then none practising ones. As one of them clearly fallows the scripture more precise. That is wrong to do. You are only making excuses for the radicals rather then none practising Muslims. Paramount consider your stance.
Paramount Member	Thu Jun 22 07:30:35 "We know by looking at the video that clearly shows a controlled demolition and rigged demolition" I haven't seen the video. But I have seen the video of how wtc got demolished. It looked like a controled demolition. Does this one look the same? "Why are they clearly not Muslims?" I'm thinking that if they are muslims and if they believe in allah, why would they destroy their own 800 y.o mosque? They are destroying muslim heritage, history. So they are clearly enemies of muslims and islam. If it was them who destroyed it they can't be muslims. They are just criminal trash.
hood Member	Thu Jun 22 07:37:54 You do society a disservice when you attempt to distance the bad portion of a group from the good. A radical Muslim is just as Muslim as a nonpracticing westernized Muslim. By trying to distinguish between them, you shrug off responsibility. Suddenly, the extremists aren't beholden to anyone and are free to go about their extreme business. While it is certainly unfair to characterize all Muslims as extreme terrorists, those terrorists are still Muslim and everyone needs to recognize that. Acknowledge the bad, accept the good, attempt to influence those who lost their way. Or, in the case of terrorists, wipe them out if they get troublesome.
Neverwoods Member	Thu Jun 22 07:38:15 Muslims don't idolize icons. It's within the right as Muslims to destroy such idols.
Paramount Member	Thu Jun 22 07:49:14 Isn't Muhammed and Allah icons that they idolize?
Neverwoods Member	Thu Jun 22 07:55:33 No monuments of them. Other wise they would destroy that too.
Paramount Member	Thu Jun 22 07:59:01 "radical Muslim is just as Muslim as a nonpracticing westernized Muslim. By trying to distinguish between them, you shrug off responsibility." A pedo christian is just as christian as a non-pedo christian. So even if it is unfair to characterize all christians as pedos, christians has a responsibility, and everyone has to recognize that so that every christian isn't free to go about their pedo business?
Paramount Member	Thu Jun 22 08:01:57 "No monuments of them. Other wise they would destroy that too." Okay. I accept your explanation.
Neverwoods Member	Thu Jun 22 08:03:34 Paramount this is not about them vs us. Don't make it a whataboutism, this topic is talking about Muslims not Christians.
Paramount Member	Thu Jun 22 08:12:51 Sorry, I'm just checking if we judge ourselves the same way we judge others.
hood Member	Thu Jun 22 09:20:36 I'm not Christian. But yes, what you said applies. Rapist priests are no less Christian than those nonrapist priests.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 10:03:37 The saudis have even leveled the houses of the relatives of Muhammed and whole graveyards and yes Mosques. In Iran right in the early days of the revolution the nutjobs even tried to level the ruins of Perspolis. They drove up there with bulldozers, but where twarted off by the locals. Idolatry is a very serious offence in these circles, it isn't random either. IS has very clear directives, certain things may stand, some may be pillaged and sold others must be destroyed.
TJ Member	Thu Jun 22 10:25:24 I'd have to disagree. We can call ourselves anything we want, but that isn't a deciding factor of what we really are. The world is filled with infiltrators for nefarious reasoning. We will most likely need to agree to disagree.
hood Member	Thu Jun 22 10:41:47 There's a huge difference between an extreme viewpoint within a group and an infiltrator. Don't confuse the two.
TJ Member	Thu Jun 22 10:43:18 No confusion here.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 11:05:49 So who get's to decide what you are and are not on matters of personal identity?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 11:08:27 Specifically those that are hinging on accepting ideas, like religious identity.
Forwyn Member	Thu Jun 22 11:10:21 The "moderate Muslim" is further from emulating Mohammad than the jihadi.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 11:13:28 I don't think what TJ is saying is along those lines.
TJ Member	Thu Jun 22 11:26:14 Nimatzo iChihuaha Thu Jun 22 11:05:49 So who get's to decide what you are and are not on matters of personal identity? Anyone can decide whatever they want about who someone is or not, but actions speak with a lot more strength than words. Everyone is left with the task of who they are individually. I suppose that was my only point. A lack of consistency is easily observable.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 11:38:21 And how does that tie in to something specific like for instance jihadist being or not being Muslims or pedophile priests say. Maybe it doesn't, just interested. Religion is a bit gnarly, very few even the literalists are 100% consistent, everyone breaks the mold.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 11:40:27 When I accept anyones claim to "Muslim" or "Christian" as legitimate, I am accepting that inconsistency that everyone (even IS) exhibits.
TJ Member	Thu Jun 22 11:47:43 Inconsistency is certainly my point. It doesn't make you much of anything that is complete. Organized religion as excuse in numbers. We can claim to be anything, eh.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 11:51:10 Then no one can ever truly be anything.
TJ Member	Thu Jun 22 12:01:40 Depends on what you mean by anything. People claim to be lot of things. Again, the point I was making. Just because we claim to be something doesn't make it so. To many can't see the tree because it is in a forest. :) Tell me, how does the simplicity escape one's understanding.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 12:13:53 Because nothing is ever so simple that it can't be made extremely complicated. Specifically I am talking about identity rooted in the acceptance of ideologies, like religion. Since this is a personal relationship with a alleged god I don't think anyone can really tell you that you do not have it.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 12:16:30 I mean sure as an atheist I think you are deluding yourself, but I find everyone equally deluded on that specific issue, but not everyone deserves equal attention from the rest of us.
TJ Member	Thu Jun 22 12:19:08 It is all too common for people to deceive themselves and have faith that they are what they believe themselves to be. Religion is overloaded with such individuals. It is known as denial.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 12:27:28 That is not really true, most of the faiths we are talking about have specific tenets and dogmas that you need to believe and/or follow. So the bar is not ever 0. It is difficult to call someone a Christian who does not in some way accept Jesus as savior. I think the topic is closer to the physical reality we live in with all these different groups of people who cluster and rest on certain pillars, wearing the same hats and symbols, singing songs.
TJ Member	Thu Jun 22 12:40:18 "I think the topic is closer to the physical reality we live in with all these different groups of people who cluster and rest on certain pillars, wearing the same hats and symbols, singing songs." Exactly, you put yourself into a particular environment and you become one with that environment. It encourages a delusion. We become intrinsic victims. Humanity can do much better for the good of all mankind or can it? Don't be impulsive with a response to that question. :) I think it is rightfully termed as bias reality. Politics is another fine example.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 13:00:21 I am approaching this as primarily a secular classical liberal, on how we best should navigate these delusions and the groups of people who hold them. I am content, if humanity can just do a little better. Can someone who drinks alcohol be a good Muslim? It is not for me to say either way since I don't share their delusions, it is laughable to me. The secular liberal pragmatist views it differently, they must be allowed to be a good Muslim. The dogma dictates corporal punishment if not and that is not a good place for me or them.
	show deleted posts

Your Name:
Your Password:
Your Message: