Utopia Talk - Politics - German police raided 36

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Utopia Talk / Politics / German police raided 36

NeverWoods
Member Wed Jun 21 16:35:23
http://www...-facebook-raid-hate-incitement

Ok Germany, That's not extreme at all.

Rugian
Member Wed Jun 21 16:41:56
Good thing that Merkel would be able to do this sort of shit continent-wide in a federal Europe.

NeverWoods
Member Wed Jun 21 16:43:29
OK read few more sources and it might not be as extreme as the Verge makes one believe.

The raid is not on just anyone. It was on members of right wing terror group known as Reichsbürger.

Makes sense. Last year Germany conducted the same raid but on Jihadist.

https://www.dailysabah.com/europe/2017/06/21/german-police-conduct-nationwide-raids-against-reichsburgers

NeverWoods
Member Wed Jun 21 16:46:37
Rugian, I find that comment to be made out of spite and hate. I swear If i have any major power. I will personally raid your home. I won't order anyone to do it for me, I will personally be there and raid the shit out of you.

Hrothgar
Member Wed Jun 21 20:24:18
I want the newest burger at McDonalds to be called the Riechsburger. Just because.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 22 00:52:08
http://con...-radical-left-27-times-likely/

Leftwing terrorism is a much bigger problem as indicated by europol data.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 22 00:53:12
But let's raid people for facebook posts.

Nekran
Member Thu Jun 22 01:11:11
"Leftwing terrorism is a much bigger problem as indicated by europol data."

From the actual interpol report on 2016:

"99 foiled, failed and completed attacks carried
out labeled as ethno-nationalist and seperatist terrorism.,"

"In 2016, leftwing and anarchist terrorist groups or individuals in the EU carried out 27 attcks. This was a sharp increase, compared to the number of attcks that occurred in 2015."

I think once you start blindly believing things websites like "constitution.com" are saying, just because they happen to fit where you stand on an issue, you should really reconsider some things, Nimi.

Paramount
Member Thu Jun 22 01:58:06
lol, Nimnazio.

Paramount
Member Thu Jun 22 01:59:26
"let's raid people for facebook posts."

I think we will see more of this coming in da future.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 22 03:15:26
>>just because they happen to fit where you stand on an issue<<

It also fits very nicely with what SÄPO (Swedish intelligence) said before they promoted Islamic terrorism to the nr 1 spot. I would be careful in throwing around accusations. If the website is wrong then it is wrong, but this is not my only source for thinking that left wing terrorism is a bigger problem than right wing. I don't have a preference on terrorism, just for the truth.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 22 03:25:52
It would seem that the articles citing "27 times more likely" are differentiating between ethno-nationalism/separatist and rightwing. You know as the europol report does.

Attacks by the PKK for instance, are counted as separatist. IRA etc.

Look at page 49 annex 1 and forward.

Does this fit with your position on the issue?

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 22 03:28:27
You should reconsider you position in light of the facts that europol has presented and that Swedish intelligence stated some years ago.

Daemon
Member Thu Jun 22 03:33:07
16 of the 27 attacks happened in Italy:

http://www.../files/documents/tesat2017.pdf

"Italy, Greece and Spain were again the only EU Member States to experience left-wing and anarchist terrorist attacks."

"In Italy in 2016, a total of 16 attacks were carried out by leftwing and anarchist terrorist groups. Although the incidents increased in number compared to 2015, it appeared that the operational capabilities of the groups remained low.
The majority of the attacks in 2016 were carried out using unsophisticated improvised incendiary/explosive devices (IID/IEDs), containing flammable liquids or gunpowder and
crude ignition mechanisms, some of which failed to operate.
Eight people were arrested on charges related to left-wing and anarchist terrorism.
Italian anarchist terrorist groups targeted facilities related to the management of migration-related issues in general; and to the function of the Identification and Deportation Centres
(CIE) in particular. Five victim-operated improvised explosive devices (VOIEDs, parcel bombs) were sent between February and September to travel agencies and companies related to the CIEs, without causing injuries or damage."

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 22 03:50:54
That is fair, but let's also take into account the trajectories. Right wing terror has decreased, while left wing terror has increased.

The entire point I am making is that a lot of people seem to give a pass or turn a blind eye to the crimes of the left, historic and present. The obsession with Nazis and the extreme right has reached unhealthy levels and more importantly, does not align with the actual facts on the ground.

Neverwoods
Member Thu Jun 22 03:58:27
"Right wing terror has decreased, while left wing terror has increased. "

Would that be because Right wing terror groups are more of a target to the authorities?

This is silly, I am not going to get into it.
There is always a Marxist hippy running around trying to chance the world by blood. They are hardly organized.

Daemon
Member Thu Jun 22 04:34:27
I think one of the problems comes from sometimes strange definitions of terrorism and only looking at terrorism. A terrorist attack might cause less harm than a political extremist physically harming a person with another political view, which is not counted as terrorism.

I don't even know how this is counted:
http://www...ity-fears-ahead-of-g20-summit/

"Arson attacks on German railways spark security fears ahead of G20 summit

There have been 12 seemingly coordinated incidents nationwide on railroad tracks, police said."

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 22 04:37:21
It may be, but increasingly right-wing extremist have made inroads to parliamentary forums to vent their frustration. Often at the expense of main stream socialists and of course other right wing parties.

This is viewed as a great a front to the left who has increasingly resorted to activism and increased violence. I would say in large part the increase of the violence in the left is a response to the main stream acceptance of the far right. I am using violence more broadly here to include non terror violence, like the ones you see on US college campuses as well.

In short right-wing extremist have legitimate power now and the motivations for non-parliamentary methods have evaporated to a some degree.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 22 04:38:03
^For NW.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 22 04:38:42
affront*

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 22 05:09:48
"They are hardly organized."

At best, most left wing and right wing terror is loosely organized, nothing like the IS orchestrated. It more resembles the IS inspired. The Bataclan theater vs the London Bridge, in terms of casualties.

There is a lot of non organized or loosely organized violence that deserves our attention and it cause for worry. I think worry is reasonable and distinct from heavy handed policies drafted in panic. We shouldn't panic over any of these things, just deal with them honestly.

Neverwoods
Member Thu Jun 22 05:27:11
> but increasingly right-wing extremist have made inroads to parliamentary forums to vent their frustration.

Sure sworn enemies and all. and the rise of Black- bloc might be a respond to the right wing trend.

Still as far it goes for acts of terror, they they hardly top any charts. the left are more into vandalism then causing terror attacks. look at all the left terror acts, you find some are lousy defined as terror acts.

It's hard to down play it tho, I cant say this is not troubling as one act of an moron can kill a group of people. but right wing extremist is still more worrying.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 22 05:54:21
I agree, when it comes to terrorism Islamist inspired is nr 1 as indicated by Europol.

We can discuss and dissect the definition of terror, probably it should be reviewed. But judging by this thread this unwillingness to accept the Europol report and subsequent dissection of the term "terrorism" seems to fall in line with what I said earlier. A lot of people do not want to (really) accept the crimes of the left or will downplay it.

We seem to be very critical of evidence and methodology that do not align well with our world view. I can be as guilty as anyone else, though I am not convinced I am that person right now.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 22 05:57:03
I don't know what to make of ethno-nationalist/separatist as it includes a broad range of groups, political ideologies and more or less country/group specific. Not as clear as left/right/Islam.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 22 05:59:19
I mean under some definition what IS is doing is separatist.

Nekran
Member Thu Jun 22 11:20:02
I mostly wanted to point out how shitty your source was. "ethno-nationalist/separatist" would line up more with right wings affiliations in most of Europe, I do think, but it is definitely not as clear cut as that, I do realise.

I don't wish to ignore any terrorism, just wanted to point out that the source you cited there was pretty shitty and obviously biased.

Just the number of "27 times as likely" should've rung an alarm bell, really. That's just not realistic at all. I wouldn't believe a source telling me the reverse, in any case.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 22 11:34:01
Sorry I don't buy the "shitty source" argument, the report can be read by anyone. The question is why did some news media calculate the 27 number and others didn't? Why would some sources lift the jihadist terror and others the leftwing while other will choose to ignore certain things and obscure? Is there an agenda? Shocking!

When it comes to certain issues, these "shit" sources provide a more accurate picture. New is more or less biased these days, you just gotta know the bias and what the political motivations are. Left wing media obscures some things and right wing media others.

You accused me of blindly following "shitty source" and referenced evidence (which turned out to be wrong) to tell me I have a preferred outcome. I think you should stand for that error and we should then move on.

Ethno-nationalism when you read the report are groups like PKK, ETA and IRA a veritable salad of terror.

Nekran
Member Thu Jun 22 13:45:08
So you're keeping the stance that there was exactly one right-wing affiliated terror attack in all of Europe last year?

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 22 14:02:31
I can change the ideas I have in my head fairly painlessly.

I am keeping the stance that the Europol study cities exactly one incident, yes indefinitely. Until they issue a revision.

To recap since you seem to be floating away. I claimed that left wing terrorism was a bigger issue than right wing. I cited a "shitty source" that references a Europol study. I also cited SÄPO having said that leftwing terrorism was the biggest threat a few years ago until a year ago when jihadist terror took the nr 1 spot.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 22 14:13:07
Are you keeping your stance that I blindly follow "constitution.com" because it fits with where I stand?

Where exactly do I stand by the way according to you? I think that is important if we are gonna discuss things, that we understand each others position.

show deleted posts

NeverWoods Member	Wed Jun 21 16:35:23 http://www...-facebook-raid-hate-incitement Ok Germany, That's not extreme at all.
Rugian Member	Wed Jun 21 16:41:56 Good thing that Merkel would be able to do this sort of shit continent-wide in a federal Europe.
NeverWoods Member	Wed Jun 21 16:43:29 OK read few more sources and it might not be as extreme as the Verge makes one believe. The raid is not on just anyone. It was on members of right wing terror group known as Reichsbürger. Makes sense. Last year Germany conducted the same raid but on Jihadist. https://www.dailysabah.com/europe/2017/06/21/german-police-conduct-nationwide-raids-against-reichsburgers
NeverWoods Member	Wed Jun 21 16:46:37 Rugian, I find that comment to be made out of spite and hate. I swear If i have any major power. I will personally raid your home. I won't order anyone to do it for me, I will personally be there and raid the shit out of you.
Hrothgar Member	Wed Jun 21 20:24:18 I want the newest burger at McDonalds to be called the Riechsburger. Just because.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 00:52:08 http://con...-radical-left-27-times-likely/ Leftwing terrorism is a much bigger problem as indicated by europol data.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 00:53:12 But let's raid people for facebook posts.
Nekran Member	Thu Jun 22 01:11:11 "Leftwing terrorism is a much bigger problem as indicated by europol data." From the actual interpol report on 2016: "99 foiled, failed and completed attacks carried out labeled as ethno-nationalist and seperatist terrorism.," "In 2016, leftwing and anarchist terrorist groups or individuals in the EU carried out 27 attcks. This was a sharp increase, compared to the number of attcks that occurred in 2015." I think once you start blindly believing things websites like "constitution.com" are saying, just because they happen to fit where you stand on an issue, you should really reconsider some things, Nimi.
Paramount Member	Thu Jun 22 01:58:06 lol, Nimnazio.
Paramount Member	Thu Jun 22 01:59:26 "let's raid people for facebook posts." I think we will see more of this coming in da future.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 03:15:26 >>just because they happen to fit where you stand on an issue<< It also fits very nicely with what SÄPO (Swedish intelligence) said before they promoted Islamic terrorism to the nr 1 spot. I would be careful in throwing around accusations. If the website is wrong then it is wrong, but this is not my only source for thinking that left wing terrorism is a bigger problem than right wing. I don't have a preference on terrorism, just for the truth.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 03:25:52 It would seem that the articles citing "27 times more likely" are differentiating between ethno-nationalism/separatist and rightwing. You know as the europol report does. Attacks by the PKK for instance, are counted as separatist. IRA etc. Look at page 49 annex 1 and forward. Does this fit with your position on the issue?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 03:28:27 You should reconsider you position in light of the facts that europol has presented and that Swedish intelligence stated some years ago.
Daemon Member	Thu Jun 22 03:33:07 16 of the 27 attacks happened in Italy: http://www.../files/documents/tesat2017.pdf "Italy, Greece and Spain were again the only EU Member States to experience left-wing and anarchist terrorist attacks." "In Italy in 2016, a total of 16 attacks were carried out by leftwing and anarchist terrorist groups. Although the incidents increased in number compared to 2015, it appeared that the operational capabilities of the groups remained low. The majority of the attacks in 2016 were carried out using unsophisticated improvised incendiary/explosive devices (IID/IEDs), containing flammable liquids or gunpowder and crude ignition mechanisms, some of which failed to operate. Eight people were arrested on charges related to left-wing and anarchist terrorism. Italian anarchist terrorist groups targeted facilities related to the management of migration-related issues in general; and to the function of the Identification and Deportation Centres (CIE) in particular. Five victim-operated improvised explosive devices (VOIEDs, parcel bombs) were sent between February and September to travel agencies and companies related to the CIEs, without causing injuries or damage."
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 03:50:54 That is fair, but let's also take into account the trajectories. Right wing terror has decreased, while left wing terror has increased. The entire point I am making is that a lot of people seem to give a pass or turn a blind eye to the crimes of the left, historic and present. The obsession with Nazis and the extreme right has reached unhealthy levels and more importantly, does not align with the actual facts on the ground.
Neverwoods Member	Thu Jun 22 03:58:27 "Right wing terror has decreased, while left wing terror has increased. " Would that be because Right wing terror groups are more of a target to the authorities? This is silly, I am not going to get into it. There is always a Marxist hippy running around trying to chance the world by blood. They are hardly organized.
Daemon Member	Thu Jun 22 04:34:27 I think one of the problems comes from sometimes strange definitions of terrorism and only looking at terrorism. A terrorist attack might cause less harm than a political extremist physically harming a person with another political view, which is not counted as terrorism. I don't even know how this is counted: http://www...ity-fears-ahead-of-g20-summit/ "Arson attacks on German railways spark security fears ahead of G20 summit There have been 12 seemingly coordinated incidents nationwide on railroad tracks, police said."
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 04:37:21 It may be, but increasingly right-wing extremist have made inroads to parliamentary forums to vent their frustration. Often at the expense of main stream socialists and of course other right wing parties. This is viewed as a great a front to the left who has increasingly resorted to activism and increased violence. I would say in large part the increase of the violence in the left is a response to the main stream acceptance of the far right. I am using violence more broadly here to include non terror violence, like the ones you see on US college campuses as well. In short right-wing extremist have legitimate power now and the motivations for non-parliamentary methods have evaporated to a some degree.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 04:38:03 ^For NW.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 04:38:42 affront*
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 05:09:48 "They are hardly organized." At best, most left wing and right wing terror is loosely organized, nothing like the IS orchestrated. It more resembles the IS inspired. The Bataclan theater vs the London Bridge, in terms of casualties. There is a lot of non organized or loosely organized violence that deserves our attention and it cause for worry. I think worry is reasonable and distinct from heavy handed policies drafted in panic. We shouldn't panic over any of these things, just deal with them honestly.
Neverwoods Member	Thu Jun 22 05:27:11 > but increasingly right-wing extremist have made inroads to parliamentary forums to vent their frustration. Sure sworn enemies and all. and the rise of Black- bloc might be a respond to the right wing trend. Still as far it goes for acts of terror, they they hardly top any charts. the left are more into vandalism then causing terror attacks. look at all the left terror acts, you find some are lousy defined as terror acts. It's hard to down play it tho, I cant say this is not troubling as one act of an moron can kill a group of people. but right wing extremist is still more worrying.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 05:54:21 I agree, when it comes to terrorism Islamist inspired is nr 1 as indicated by Europol. We can discuss and dissect the definition of terror, probably it should be reviewed. But judging by this thread this unwillingness to accept the Europol report and subsequent dissection of the term "terrorism" seems to fall in line with what I said earlier. A lot of people do not want to (really) accept the crimes of the left or will downplay it. We seem to be very critical of evidence and methodology that do not align well with our world view. I can be as guilty as anyone else, though I am not convinced I am that person right now.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 05:57:03 I don't know what to make of ethno-nationalist/separatist as it includes a broad range of groups, political ideologies and more or less country/group specific. Not as clear as left/right/Islam.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 05:59:19 I mean under some definition what IS is doing is separatist.
Nekran Member	Thu Jun 22 11:20:02 I mostly wanted to point out how shitty your source was. "ethno-nationalist/separatist" would line up more with right wings affiliations in most of Europe, I do think, but it is definitely not as clear cut as that, I do realise. I don't wish to ignore any terrorism, just wanted to point out that the source you cited there was pretty shitty and obviously biased. Just the number of "27 times as likely" should've rung an alarm bell, really. That's just not realistic at all. I wouldn't believe a source telling me the reverse, in any case.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 11:34:01 Sorry I don't buy the "shitty source" argument, the report can be read by anyone. The question is why did some news media calculate the 27 number and others didn't? Why would some sources lift the jihadist terror and others the leftwing while other will choose to ignore certain things and obscure? Is there an agenda? Shocking! When it comes to certain issues, these "shit" sources provide a more accurate picture. New is more or less biased these days, you just gotta know the bias and what the political motivations are. Left wing media obscures some things and right wing media others. You accused me of blindly following "shitty source" and referenced evidence (which turned out to be wrong) to tell me I have a preferred outcome. I think you should stand for that error and we should then move on. Ethno-nationalism when you read the report are groups like PKK, ETA and IRA a veritable salad of terror.
Nekran Member	Thu Jun 22 13:45:08 So you're keeping the stance that there was exactly one right-wing affiliated terror attack in all of Europe last year?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 14:02:31 I can change the ideas I have in my head fairly painlessly. I am keeping the stance that the Europol study cities exactly one incident, yes indefinitely. Until they issue a revision. To recap since you seem to be floating away. I claimed that left wing terrorism was a bigger issue than right wing. I cited a "shitty source" that references a Europol study. I also cited SÄPO having said that leftwing terrorism was the biggest threat a few years ago until a year ago when jihadist terror took the nr 1 spot.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 22 14:13:07 Are you keeping your stance that I blindly follow "constitution.com" because it fits with where I stand? Where exactly do I stand by the way according to you? I think that is important if we are gonna discuss things, that we understand each others position.
	show deleted posts

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