Utopia Talk - Politics - German police raided 36

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Utopia Talk / Politics / German police raided 36

NeverWoods
rank Wed Jun 21 23:35:23 2017
http://www...-facebook-raid-hate-incitement

Ok Germany, That's not extreme at all.

Rugian
rank Wed Jun 21 23:41:56 2017
Good thing that Merkel would be able to do this sort of shit continent-wide in a federal Europe.

NeverWoods
rank Wed Jun 21 23:43:29 2017
OK read few more sources and it might not be as extreme as the Verge makes one believe.

The raid is not on just anyone. It was on members of right wing terror group known as Reichsbürger.

Makes sense. Last year Germany conducted the same raid but on Jihadist.

https://ww...de-raids-against-reichsburgers

NeverWoods
rank Wed Jun 21 23:46:37 2017
Rugian, I find that comment to be made out of spite and hate. I swear If i have any major power. I will personally raid your home. I won't order anyone to do it for me, I will personally be there and raid the shit out of you.

Hrothgar
rank Thu Jun 22 03:24:18 2017
I want the newest burger at McDonalds to be called the Riechsburger. Just because.

Nimatzo
rank Thu Jun 22 07:52:08 2017
http://con...-radical-left-27-times-likely/

Leftwing terrorism is a much bigger problem as indicated by europol data.

Nimatzo
rank Thu Jun 22 07:53:12 2017
But let's raid people for facebook posts.

Nekran
rank Thu Jun 22 08:11:11 2017
"Leftwing terrorism is a much bigger problem as indicated by europol data."

From the actual interpol report on 2016:

"99 foiled, failed and completed attacks carried
out labeled as ethno-nationalist and seperatist terrorism.,"

"In 2016, leftwing and anarchist terrorist groups or individuals in the EU carried out 27 attcks. This was a sharp increase, compared to the number of attcks that occurred in 2015."

I think once you start blindly believing things websites like "constitution.com" are saying, just because they happen to fit where you stand on an issue, you should really reconsider some things, Nimi.

Paramount
rank Thu Jun 22 08:58:06 2017
lol, Nimnazio.

Paramount
rank Thu Jun 22 08:59:26 2017
"let's raid people for facebook posts."

I think we will see more of this coming in da future.

Nimatzo
rank Thu Jun 22 10:15:26 2017
>>just because they happen to fit where you stand on an issue<<

It also fits very nicely with what SÄPO (Swedish intelligence) said before they promoted Islamic terrorism to the nr 1 spot. I would be careful in throwing around accusations. If the website is wrong then it is wrong, but this is not my only source for thinking that left wing terrorism is a bigger problem than right wing. I don't have a preference on terrorism, just for the truth.

Nimatzo
rank Thu Jun 22 10:25:52 2017
It would seem that the articles citing "27 times more likely" are differentiating between ethno-nationalism/separatist and rightwing. You know as the europol report does.

Attacks by the PKK for instance, are counted as separatist. IRA etc.

Look at page 49 annex 1 and forward.

Does this fit with your position on the issue?

Nimatzo
rank Thu Jun 22 10:28:27 2017
You should reconsider you position in light of the facts that europol has presented and that Swedish intelligence stated some years ago.

Daemon
rank Thu Jun 22 10:33:07 2017
16 of the 27 attacks happened in Italy:

http://www.../files/documents/tesat2017.pdf

"Italy, Greece and Spain were again the only EU Member States to experience left-wing and anarchist terrorist attacks."

"In Italy in 2016, a total of 16 attacks were carried out by leftwing and anarchist terrorist groups. Although the incidents increased in number compared to 2015, it appeared that the operational capabilities of the groups remained low.
The majority of the attacks in 2016 were carried out using unsophisticated improvised incendiary/explosive devices (IID/IEDs), containing flammable liquids or gunpowder and
crude ignition mechanisms, some of which failed to operate.
Eight people were arrested on charges related to left-wing and anarchist terrorism.
Italian anarchist terrorist groups targeted facilities related to the management of migration-related issues in general; and to the function of the Identification and Deportation Centres
(CIE) in particular. Five victim-operated improvised explosive devices (VOIEDs, parcel bombs) were sent between February and September to travel agencies and companies related to the CIEs, without causing injuries or damage."

Nimatzo
rank Thu Jun 22 10:50:54 2017
That is fair, but let's also take into account the trajectories. Right wing terror has decreased, while left wing terror has increased.

The entire point I am making is that a lot of people seem to give a pass or turn a blind eye to the crimes of the left, historic and present. The obsession with Nazis and the extreme right has reached unhealthy levels and more importantly, does not align with the actual facts on the ground.

Neverwoods
rank Thu Jun 22 10:58:27 2017
"Right wing terror has decreased, while left wing terror has increased. "

Would that be because Right wing terror groups are more of a target to the authorities?

This is silly, I am not going to get into it.
There is always a Marxist hippy running around trying to chance the world by blood. They are hardly organized.

Daemon
rank Thu Jun 22 11:34:27 2017
I think one of the problems comes from sometimes strange definitions of terrorism and only looking at terrorism. A terrorist attack might cause less harm than a political extremist physically harming a person with another political view, which is not counted as terrorism.

I don't even know how this is counted:
http://www...ity-fears-ahead-of-g20-summit/

"Arson attacks on German railways spark security fears ahead of G20 summit

There have been 12 seemingly coordinated incidents nationwide on railroad tracks, police said."

Nimatzo
rank Thu Jun 22 11:37:21 2017
It may be, but increasingly right-wing extremist have made inroads to parliamentary forums to vent their frustration. Often at the expense of main stream socialists and of course other right wing parties.

This is viewed as a great a front to the left who has increasingly resorted to activism and increased violence. I would say in large part the increase of the violence in the left is a response to the main stream acceptance of the far right. I am using violence more broadly here to include non terror violence, like the ones you see on US college campuses as well.

In short right-wing extremist have legitimate power now and the motivations for non-parliamentary methods have evaporated to a some degree.

Nimatzo
rank Thu Jun 22 11:38:03 2017
^For NW.

Nimatzo
rank Thu Jun 22 11:38:42 2017
affront*

Nimatzo
rank Thu Jun 22 12:09:48 2017
"They are hardly organized."

At best, most left wing and right wing terror is loosely organized, nothing like the IS orchestrated. It more resembles the IS inspired. The Bataclan theater vs the London Bridge, in terms of casualties.

There is a lot of non organized or loosely organized violence that deserves our attention and it cause for worry. I think worry is reasonable and distinct from heavy handed policies drafted in panic. We shouldn't panic over any of these things, just deal with them honestly.

Neverwoods
rank Thu Jun 22 12:27:11 2017
> but increasingly right-wing extremist have made inroads to parliamentary forums to vent their frustration.

Sure sworn enemies and all. and the rise of Black- bloc might be a respond to the right wing trend.

Still as far it goes for acts of terror, they they hardly top any charts. the left are more into vandalism then causing terror attacks. look at all the left terror acts, you find some are lousy defined as terror acts.

It's hard to down play it tho, I cant say this is not troubling as one act of an moron can kill a group of people. but right wing extremist is still more worrying.

Nimatzo
rank Thu Jun 22 12:54:21 2017
I agree, when it comes to terrorism Islamist inspired is nr 1 as indicated by Europol.

We can discuss and dissect the definition of terror, probably it should be reviewed. But judging by this thread this unwillingness to accept the Europol report and subsequent dissection of the term "terrorism" seems to fall in line with what I said earlier. A lot of people do not want to (really) accept the crimes of the left or will downplay it.

We seem to be very critical of evidence and methodology that do not align well with our world view. I can be as guilty as anyone else, though I am not convinced I am that person right now.

Nimatzo
rank Thu Jun 22 12:57:03 2017
I don't know what to make of ethno-nationalist/separatist as it includes a broad range of groups, political ideologies and more or less country/group specific. Not as clear as left/right/Islam.

Nimatzo
rank Thu Jun 22 12:59:19 2017
I mean under some definition what IS is doing is separatist.

Nekran
rank Thu Jun 22 18:20:02 2017
I mostly wanted to point out how shitty your source was. "ethno-nationalist/separatist" would line up more with right wings affiliations in most of Europe, I do think, but it is definitely not as clear cut as that, I do realise.

I don't wish to ignore any terrorism, just wanted to point out that the source you cited there was pretty shitty and obviously biased.

Just the number of "27 times as likely" should've rung an alarm bell, really. That's just not realistic at all. I wouldn't believe a source telling me the reverse, in any case.

Nimatzo
rank Thu Jun 22 18:34:01 2017
Sorry I don't buy the "shitty source" argument, the report can be read by anyone. The question is why did some news media calculate the 27 number and others didn't? Why would some sources lift the jihadist terror and others the leftwing while other will choose to ignore certain things and obscure? Is there an agenda? Shocking!

When it comes to certain issues, these "shit" sources provide a more accurate picture. New is more or less biased these days, you just gotta know the bias and what the political motivations are. Left wing media obscures some things and right wing media others.

You accused me of blindly following "shitty source" and referenced evidence (which turned out to be wrong) to tell me I have a preferred outcome. I think you should stand for that error and we should then move on.

Ethno-nationalism when you read the report are groups like PKK, ETA and IRA a veritable salad of terror.

Nekran
rank Thu Jun 22 20:45:08 2017
So you're keeping the stance that there was exactly one right-wing affiliated terror attack in all of Europe last year?

Nimatzo
rank Thu Jun 22 21:02:31 2017
I can change the ideas I have in my head fairly painlessly.

I am keeping the stance that the Europol study cities exactly one incident, yes indefinitely. Until they issue a revision.

To recap since you seem to be floating away. I claimed that left wing terrorism was a bigger issue than right wing. I cited a "shitty source" that references a Europol study. I also cited SÄPO having said that leftwing terrorism was the biggest threat a few years ago until a year ago when jihadist terror took the nr 1 spot.

Nimatzo
rank Thu Jun 22 21:13:07 2017
Are you keeping your stance that I blindly follow "constitution.com" because it fits with where I stand?

Where exactly do I stand by the way according to you? I think that is important if we are gonna discuss things, that we understand each others position.

show deleted posts

NeverWoods rank	Wed Jun 21 23:35:23 2017 http://www...-facebook-raid-hate-incitement Ok Germany, That's not extreme at all.
Rugian rank	Wed Jun 21 23:41:56 2017 Good thing that Merkel would be able to do this sort of shit continent-wide in a federal Europe.
NeverWoods rank	Wed Jun 21 23:43:29 2017 OK read few more sources and it might not be as extreme as the Verge makes one believe. The raid is not on just anyone. It was on members of right wing terror group known as Reichsbürger. Makes sense. Last year Germany conducted the same raid but on Jihadist. https://ww...de-raids-against-reichsburgers
NeverWoods rank	Wed Jun 21 23:46:37 2017 Rugian, I find that comment to be made out of spite and hate. I swear If i have any major power. I will personally raid your home. I won't order anyone to do it for me, I will personally be there and raid the shit out of you.
Hrothgar rank	Thu Jun 22 03:24:18 2017 I want the newest burger at McDonalds to be called the Riechsburger. Just because.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Jun 22 07:52:08 2017 http://con...-radical-left-27-times-likely/ Leftwing terrorism is a much bigger problem as indicated by europol data.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Jun 22 07:53:12 2017 But let's raid people for facebook posts.
Nekran rank	Thu Jun 22 08:11:11 2017 "Leftwing terrorism is a much bigger problem as indicated by europol data." From the actual interpol report on 2016: "99 foiled, failed and completed attacks carried out labeled as ethno-nationalist and seperatist terrorism.," "In 2016, leftwing and anarchist terrorist groups or individuals in the EU carried out 27 attcks. This was a sharp increase, compared to the number of attcks that occurred in 2015." I think once you start blindly believing things websites like "constitution.com" are saying, just because they happen to fit where you stand on an issue, you should really reconsider some things, Nimi.
Paramount rank	Thu Jun 22 08:58:06 2017 lol, Nimnazio.
Paramount rank	Thu Jun 22 08:59:26 2017 "let's raid people for facebook posts." I think we will see more of this coming in da future.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Jun 22 10:15:26 2017 >>just because they happen to fit where you stand on an issue<< It also fits very nicely with what SÄPO (Swedish intelligence) said before they promoted Islamic terrorism to the nr 1 spot. I would be careful in throwing around accusations. If the website is wrong then it is wrong, but this is not my only source for thinking that left wing terrorism is a bigger problem than right wing. I don't have a preference on terrorism, just for the truth.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Jun 22 10:25:52 2017 It would seem that the articles citing "27 times more likely" are differentiating between ethno-nationalism/separatist and rightwing. You know as the europol report does. Attacks by the PKK for instance, are counted as separatist. IRA etc. Look at page 49 annex 1 and forward. Does this fit with your position on the issue?
Nimatzo rank	Thu Jun 22 10:28:27 2017 You should reconsider you position in light of the facts that europol has presented and that Swedish intelligence stated some years ago.
Daemon rank	Thu Jun 22 10:33:07 2017 16 of the 27 attacks happened in Italy: http://www.../files/documents/tesat2017.pdf "Italy, Greece and Spain were again the only EU Member States to experience left-wing and anarchist terrorist attacks." "In Italy in 2016, a total of 16 attacks were carried out by leftwing and anarchist terrorist groups. Although the incidents increased in number compared to 2015, it appeared that the operational capabilities of the groups remained low. The majority of the attacks in 2016 were carried out using unsophisticated improvised incendiary/explosive devices (IID/IEDs), containing flammable liquids or gunpowder and crude ignition mechanisms, some of which failed to operate. Eight people were arrested on charges related to left-wing and anarchist terrorism. Italian anarchist terrorist groups targeted facilities related to the management of migration-related issues in general; and to the function of the Identification and Deportation Centres (CIE) in particular. Five victim-operated improvised explosive devices (VOIEDs, parcel bombs) were sent between February and September to travel agencies and companies related to the CIEs, without causing injuries or damage."
Nimatzo rank	Thu Jun 22 10:50:54 2017 That is fair, but let's also take into account the trajectories. Right wing terror has decreased, while left wing terror has increased. The entire point I am making is that a lot of people seem to give a pass or turn a blind eye to the crimes of the left, historic and present. The obsession with Nazis and the extreme right has reached unhealthy levels and more importantly, does not align with the actual facts on the ground.
Neverwoods rank	Thu Jun 22 10:58:27 2017 "Right wing terror has decreased, while left wing terror has increased. " Would that be because Right wing terror groups are more of a target to the authorities? This is silly, I am not going to get into it. There is always a Marxist hippy running around trying to chance the world by blood. They are hardly organized.
Daemon rank	Thu Jun 22 11:34:27 2017 I think one of the problems comes from sometimes strange definitions of terrorism and only looking at terrorism. A terrorist attack might cause less harm than a political extremist physically harming a person with another political view, which is not counted as terrorism. I don't even know how this is counted: http://www...ity-fears-ahead-of-g20-summit/ "Arson attacks on German railways spark security fears ahead of G20 summit There have been 12 seemingly coordinated incidents nationwide on railroad tracks, police said."
Nimatzo rank	Thu Jun 22 11:37:21 2017 It may be, but increasingly right-wing extremist have made inroads to parliamentary forums to vent their frustration. Often at the expense of main stream socialists and of course other right wing parties. This is viewed as a great a front to the left who has increasingly resorted to activism and increased violence. I would say in large part the increase of the violence in the left is a response to the main stream acceptance of the far right. I am using violence more broadly here to include non terror violence, like the ones you see on US college campuses as well. In short right-wing extremist have legitimate power now and the motivations for non-parliamentary methods have evaporated to a some degree.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Jun 22 11:38:03 2017 ^For NW.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Jun 22 11:38:42 2017 affront*
Nimatzo rank	Thu Jun 22 12:09:48 2017 "They are hardly organized." At best, most left wing and right wing terror is loosely organized, nothing like the IS orchestrated. It more resembles the IS inspired. The Bataclan theater vs the London Bridge, in terms of casualties. There is a lot of non organized or loosely organized violence that deserves our attention and it cause for worry. I think worry is reasonable and distinct from heavy handed policies drafted in panic. We shouldn't panic over any of these things, just deal with them honestly.
Neverwoods rank	Thu Jun 22 12:27:11 2017 > but increasingly right-wing extremist have made inroads to parliamentary forums to vent their frustration. Sure sworn enemies and all. and the rise of Black- bloc might be a respond to the right wing trend. Still as far it goes for acts of terror, they they hardly top any charts. the left are more into vandalism then causing terror attacks. look at all the left terror acts, you find some are lousy defined as terror acts. It's hard to down play it tho, I cant say this is not troubling as one act of an moron can kill a group of people. but right wing extremist is still more worrying.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Jun 22 12:54:21 2017 I agree, when it comes to terrorism Islamist inspired is nr 1 as indicated by Europol. We can discuss and dissect the definition of terror, probably it should be reviewed. But judging by this thread this unwillingness to accept the Europol report and subsequent dissection of the term "terrorism" seems to fall in line with what I said earlier. A lot of people do not want to (really) accept the crimes of the left or will downplay it. We seem to be very critical of evidence and methodology that do not align well with our world view. I can be as guilty as anyone else, though I am not convinced I am that person right now.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Jun 22 12:57:03 2017 I don't know what to make of ethno-nationalist/separatist as it includes a broad range of groups, political ideologies and more or less country/group specific. Not as clear as left/right/Islam.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Jun 22 12:59:19 2017 I mean under some definition what IS is doing is separatist.
Nekran rank	Thu Jun 22 18:20:02 2017 I mostly wanted to point out how shitty your source was. "ethno-nationalist/separatist" would line up more with right wings affiliations in most of Europe, I do think, but it is definitely not as clear cut as that, I do realise. I don't wish to ignore any terrorism, just wanted to point out that the source you cited there was pretty shitty and obviously biased. Just the number of "27 times as likely" should've rung an alarm bell, really. That's just not realistic at all. I wouldn't believe a source telling me the reverse, in any case.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Jun 22 18:34:01 2017 Sorry I don't buy the "shitty source" argument, the report can be read by anyone. The question is why did some news media calculate the 27 number and others didn't? Why would some sources lift the jihadist terror and others the leftwing while other will choose to ignore certain things and obscure? Is there an agenda? Shocking! When it comes to certain issues, these "shit" sources provide a more accurate picture. New is more or less biased these days, you just gotta know the bias and what the political motivations are. Left wing media obscures some things and right wing media others. You accused me of blindly following "shitty source" and referenced evidence (which turned out to be wrong) to tell me I have a preferred outcome. I think you should stand for that error and we should then move on. Ethno-nationalism when you read the report are groups like PKK, ETA and IRA a veritable salad of terror.
Nekran rank	Thu Jun 22 20:45:08 2017 So you're keeping the stance that there was exactly one right-wing affiliated terror attack in all of Europe last year?
Nimatzo rank	Thu Jun 22 21:02:31 2017 I can change the ideas I have in my head fairly painlessly. I am keeping the stance that the Europol study cities exactly one incident, yes indefinitely. Until they issue a revision. To recap since you seem to be floating away. I claimed that left wing terrorism was a bigger issue than right wing. I cited a "shitty source" that references a Europol study. I also cited SÄPO having said that leftwing terrorism was the biggest threat a few years ago until a year ago when jihadist terror took the nr 1 spot.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Jun 22 21:13:07 2017 Are you keeping your stance that I blindly follow "constitution.com" because it fits with where I stand? Where exactly do I stand by the way according to you? I think that is important if we are gonna discuss things, that we understand each others position.
	show deleted posts

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