Utopia Talk - Politics - humans were in North America

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Utopia Talk / Politics / humans were in North America

swordtail
Anarchist Prime Wed Apr 26 13:24:48

Scientists find evidence that humans were in North America 100,000 years earlier than believed

Researchers basing opinion on tools found next to mastodon site in San Diego

By Nicole Mortillaro, CBC News Posted: Apr 26, 2017 1:01 PM ET| Last Updated: Apr 26, 2017 1:40 PM ET

A team of scientists believe they have found evidence of human activity in North America that dates back 130,000 years — more than 100,000 years than earlier believed.

The evidence comes from an archeological site in San Diego County, Calif. In 1992, a site was uncovered containing mastodon bones, along with stone anvils and hammerstones. Dating the tools proved to be challenging. However, using recent technology, including uranium dating, the team believes they have firm evidence that humans were using tools to break apart the bones and make other tools.

"When you look at the evidence — the material, the nature of the wear pattern on the bones, the actual mapping of the site — the evidence is absolutely incontrovertible," Richard Fullagar, co-author of the paper that appeared in Nature said during a teleconference.

The find is a controversial one as there has been a general consensus among paleontologists and anthropologists that humans made the journey to North America roughly 15,000 years ago.

Supporting evidence

The bones of the mastodon were arranged at the site — known as the Cerutti Mastodon site — in such a way that suggests it wasn't done naturally. It's not believed that the humans killed the animal, however. Instead, it's likely they were breaking up the limb bones, removing parts of the bones and probably making tools with them. They also may have extracted marrow from the bones for nutrition.

The bones also displayed spiral fractures, which suggests that they were broken while fresh and not some years later. Five large hammerstones and anvils also show wear and tear that weren't done through geological processes, the researchers said.

"What's truly remarkable about this site is that you can actually identify a particular hammer that was smacked on a particular anvil in a bunch of broken bones, and fragments of those hammers and anvils that can be refitted to the stones. It's very rare that you get that whole package together in one site," Fullagar said. "So the evidence at this site is truly remarkable and really does demonstrate human interference."

In order to replicate the types of fractures, the scientists used similar tools on elephant bones which resulted in the same spirals.

Steve Holen, from the Center for American Paleolithic Research and a co-author, said that the breaking of the bones wasn't done by carnivore chewing or animals trampling on the bones.

"When we eliminate all the other natural processes and we can reproduce this experiment, we have very strong evidence," he said.

Skeptics challenged

The findings that challenge current evidence that suggests humans arrived in North America about 15,000 years ago will most certainly be carefully scrutinized, something the authors are well aware of. During their press conference on Tuesday, they invited other researchers to examine the evidence, some of which will be on display at the San Diego Natural History Museum next week.

"I know people will be skeptical of this because this is so surprising," Holen said. "I was skeptical when I first looked at the material myself, but it's definitely an archeological site."

Ariane Burke, an anthropology professor at the University of Montreal said that she'd like to see more analysis of the bones and tools before concluding that humans were indeed here so long ago.

"Normally at an archeological site you find chipped stone tools, irrespective of what they're doing at the site. People are notorious litterbugs, even back then," she told CBC News. "So you kind of expect to see some of that trace of a human presence. I'm not saying they're absolutely wrong and it cannot be a human site, but I'd say the jury's still out. There's still some information missing."

Burke said that she'd specifically like to see a closer examination of the surface damage of the bones. She's particularly puzzled by the lack of cut marks, but says it could be obscured by the surface damage.

As for whether or not the bones could have been broken by heavy machines or vehicles, the authors are adamant that that's not the case.

The researchers are confident that under careful examination, other scientists will come to the same conclusions.

"If they look carefully at this paper, that's been through rigorous peer review that Nature insists for their publication, if people honestly look at the data … and have questions they want to pose, we are open for this sort of scholarly assessment of our work," said Thomas Demere, curator of paleontology at the San Diego Natural History Museum.

"And people are welcome to come to the museum to examine these specimens for themselves."

http://www...north-america-130000-1.4086109

The Children
Member Wed Apr 26 13:28:57
chinese writing characters on stones in usa.

we were there many thousand years ago.

Paramount
Member Wed Apr 26 13:44:28
Chinese characters?

130,000 years ago?

That's a whole lot of many years ago. It was before the jews were invented.

Clearly, these people were God's children.

The Children
Member Wed Apr 26 13:47:35
well dunno bout 130k years ago but stones with chinese writin were found in usa...like 2000 years old or more.

Sam Adams
Member Wed Apr 26 14:07:08
English and german writing all appeared in china in the late 1800s.

When we conquered china.

Sam Adams
Member Wed Apr 26 14:19:34
Anyway back on topic, broken animal bones without human bones or tools strikes me as not proof of humans.

The Children
Member Wed Apr 26 14:22:54
"English and german writing all appeared in china in the late 1800s.

When we conquered china. "

>> no such thing.

and who is this "we". u dunt live in neither germany or the uk.

http://www...New-World-3-300-years-ago.html

WE DISCOVERED THOSE LANDS. INDIANS WERE PROBABLY EARLY ASIANS.

The Children
Member Wed Apr 26 14:41:43
it aint just da fact that they look similar.

them writins actually for real sentecnes!!!

“Set apart (for) 10 years together; declaring (to) return, (the) journey completed, (to the) house of the Sun; (the) journey completed together.”

BOOM!!!

http://www...nt-chinese-made-it-to-america/

Sam Adams
Member Wed Apr 26 17:27:39
" INDIANS WERE PROBABLY EARLY ASIANS. "

Indians were certainly early asians.

But we conqeured them too. Rofl.

Cthulhu
Tentacle Rapist Wed Apr 26 17:39:00
Why do scientists think Native Americans are humans? Only Niggers of pure nigger ancestry are human. All others are hybrids.

kargen
Member Wed Apr 26 18:37:57
The Chinese characters thing was a hoax. Although had the Chines made it here when those fake writings suggest they would have met Polynesian explorers that had already been here for a long time.

Rugian
Member Wed Apr 26 18:57:15
Even if this is a credible find, all it proves is that the feather Indians had 100,000 extra years to make something of this hemisphere, and utterly failed. They have ZERO right to bitch about us bringing civilization to the Americas.

kargen
Member Wed Apr 26 19:09:27
In the mid 1990s they discovered human remains and tools that dated much earlier than when the "native Americans" arrived. The skull construction was different and other traits showed the people were unrelated to "native Americans" and were here much earlier.

Two tribes in the area claimed the sight was ancestral and convinced the Army Corp of Engineers to cement over the excavation sight. There have been other findings that have put the dates of early arrivals much earlier than when "native Americans" arrived but so far they have been able to claim ancestral rights to the artifacts and deny access so they can be studied.

The "native Americans" are afraid if they were not here first they might lose their special status where they get just about everything for free.

Hot Rod
Revved Up Wed Apr 26 21:34:58

I often wondered how they could have come here and worked their way all the way down to South America and built the sophisticated civilizations they did in just 10,000 years.

murder
Member Wed Apr 26 22:19:05

Europeans did it. :o)

obaminated
Member Wed Apr 26 22:50:41
Considering we have yet to find a humanoid fossil in North America that dates beyond 20k years ago, I'm thinking this is a fluke.

murder
Member Thu Apr 27 10:07:50

Anyway, how do they know that those were human tools? How do they know that Mastodons didn't make their own tools? It's not as if tool making is exclusive to man.

Maybe the archeologists stumbled upon the remnants of a Mastodon clinic. Maybe what they found was evidence of a Mastodon outpatient medical procedure gone wrong. Or maybe it was the lair of a Mastodon cannibal ... or even a serial killer.

People shouldn't underestimate Mastodons.

swordtail
Anarchist Prime Thu Apr 27 10:13:40
^
true dat

Hot Rod
Revved Up Thu Apr 27 17:31:14

Mastodons don't have any thumbs.

pillz
Member Thu Apr 27 19:16:25
Dont need a thumb to hold a rock when you've got a trunk.

Hot Rod
Revved Up Thu Apr 27 21:05:13

Good point.

But you need a thumb to polish your tool into a more effective thing to work with.

Don't you?

pillz
Member Thu Apr 27 21:07:06
How the fuck should i know what else they can accomplish.

Theyre fucking mastodons.

swordtail
Anarchist Prime Thu Apr 27 21:19:48
^
true dat

The Children
Member Fri Apr 28 00:46:43
u see those chinese writings...it is chinese writings!!!

enough said.

some chinaman mustve been in those lands. period.

5000 years ago!?

murder
Member Fri Apr 28 07:07:59

"But you need a thumb to polish your tool into a more effective thing to work with."

There's more than one way to polish your tool. An opposable thumb is helpful, but not essential.

But I think we've veered off the subject.

kargen
Member Fri Apr 28 11:31:34
No The Children nobody saw any ancient Chinese drawings in the desert of New Mexico because there are not any.

The Children
Member Fri Apr 28 11:41:50
are u a moron?

what is this then?

http://www...New-World-3-300-years-ago.html

owned

tumbleweed
the wanderer Fri Apr 28 11:47:55
a bunch of common shapes that look nothing like the chinese ones... we've been over this

Fred Felcher
Member Fri Apr 28 15:21:23
One looks vaguely similar to a tuna sandwich and another looks like a loaf of artisan bread.

kargen
Member Fri Apr 28 17:41:36
The Children John Ruskamp was proven to be a fraud years ago. Not only a fraud but a moron that can't distinguish obvious differences in stick figures. Ya see he wanted to sell books to idiots so he made a bunch of shit up.

So no in fact I am not "owned" and you are one of the idiots in that morons target audience.

show deleted posts

swordtail Anarchist Prime	Wed Apr 26 13:24:48 Scientists find evidence that humans were in North America 100,000 years earlier than believed Researchers basing opinion on tools found next to mastodon site in San Diego By Nicole Mortillaro, CBC News Posted: Apr 26, 2017 1:01 PM ET\| Last Updated: Apr 26, 2017 1:40 PM ET A team of scientists believe they have found evidence of human activity in North America that dates back 130,000 years — more than 100,000 years than earlier believed. The evidence comes from an archeological site in San Diego County, Calif. In 1992, a site was uncovered containing mastodon bones, along with stone anvils and hammerstones. Dating the tools proved to be challenging. However, using recent technology, including uranium dating, the team believes they have firm evidence that humans were using tools to break apart the bones and make other tools. "When you look at the evidence — the material, the nature of the wear pattern on the bones, the actual mapping of the site — the evidence is absolutely incontrovertible," Richard Fullagar, co-author of the paper that appeared in Nature said during a teleconference. The find is a controversial one as there has been a general consensus among paleontologists and anthropologists that humans made the journey to North America roughly 15,000 years ago. Supporting evidence The bones of the mastodon were arranged at the site — known as the Cerutti Mastodon site — in such a way that suggests it wasn't done naturally. It's not believed that the humans killed the animal, however. Instead, it's likely they were breaking up the limb bones, removing parts of the bones and probably making tools with them. They also may have extracted marrow from the bones for nutrition. The bones also displayed spiral fractures, which suggests that they were broken while fresh and not some years later. Five large hammerstones and anvils also show wear and tear that weren't done through geological processes, the researchers said. "What's truly remarkable about this site is that you can actually identify a particular hammer that was smacked on a particular anvil in a bunch of broken bones, and fragments of those hammers and anvils that can be refitted to the stones. It's very rare that you get that whole package together in one site," Fullagar said. "So the evidence at this site is truly remarkable and really does demonstrate human interference." In order to replicate the types of fractures, the scientists used similar tools on elephant bones which resulted in the same spirals. Steve Holen, from the Center for American Paleolithic Research and a co-author, said that the breaking of the bones wasn't done by carnivore chewing or animals trampling on the bones. "When we eliminate all the other natural processes and we can reproduce this experiment, we have very strong evidence," he said. Skeptics challenged The findings that challenge current evidence that suggests humans arrived in North America about 15,000 years ago will most certainly be carefully scrutinized, something the authors are well aware of. During their press conference on Tuesday, they invited other researchers to examine the evidence, some of which will be on display at the San Diego Natural History Museum next week. "I know people will be skeptical of this because this is so surprising," Holen said. "I was skeptical when I first looked at the material myself, but it's definitely an archeological site." Ariane Burke, an anthropology professor at the University of Montreal said that she'd like to see more analysis of the bones and tools before concluding that humans were indeed here so long ago. "Normally at an archeological site you find chipped stone tools, irrespective of what they're doing at the site. People are notorious litterbugs, even back then," she told CBC News. "So you kind of expect to see some of that trace of a human presence. I'm not saying they're absolutely wrong and it cannot be a human site, but I'd say the jury's still out. There's still some information missing." Burke said that she'd specifically like to see a closer examination of the surface damage of the bones. She's particularly puzzled by the lack of cut marks, but says it could be obscured by the surface damage. As for whether or not the bones could have been broken by heavy machines or vehicles, the authors are adamant that that's not the case. The researchers are confident that under careful examination, other scientists will come to the same conclusions. "If they look carefully at this paper, that's been through rigorous peer review that Nature insists for their publication, if people honestly look at the data … and have questions they want to pose, we are open for this sort of scholarly assessment of our work," said Thomas Demere, curator of paleontology at the San Diego Natural History Museum. "And people are welcome to come to the museum to examine these specimens for themselves." http://www...north-america-130000-1.4086109
The Children Member	Wed Apr 26 13:28:57 chinese writing characters on stones in usa. we were there many thousand years ago.
Paramount Member	Wed Apr 26 13:44:28 Chinese characters? 130,000 years ago? That's a whole lot of many years ago. It was before the jews were invented. Clearly, these people were God's children.
The Children Member	Wed Apr 26 13:47:35 well dunno bout 130k years ago but stones with chinese writin were found in usa...like 2000 years old or more.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Apr 26 14:07:08 English and german writing all appeared in china in the late 1800s. When we conquered china.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Apr 26 14:19:34 Anyway back on topic, broken animal bones without human bones or tools strikes me as not proof of humans.
The Children Member	Wed Apr 26 14:22:54 "English and german writing all appeared in china in the late 1800s. When we conquered china. " >> no such thing. and who is this "we". u dunt live in neither germany or the uk. http://www...New-World-3-300-years-ago.html WE DISCOVERED THOSE LANDS. INDIANS WERE PROBABLY EARLY ASIANS.
The Children Member	Wed Apr 26 14:41:43 it aint just da fact that they look similar. them writins actually for real sentecnes!!! “Set apart (for) 10 years together; declaring (to) return, (the) journey completed, (to the) house of the Sun; (the) journey completed together.” BOOM!!! http://www...nt-chinese-made-it-to-america/
Sam Adams Member	Wed Apr 26 17:27:39 " INDIANS WERE PROBABLY EARLY ASIANS. " Indians were certainly early asians. But we conqeured them too. Rofl.
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Wed Apr 26 17:39:00 Why do scientists think Native Americans are humans? Only Niggers of pure nigger ancestry are human. All others are hybrids.
kargen Member	Wed Apr 26 18:37:57 The Chinese characters thing was a hoax. Although had the Chines made it here when those fake writings suggest they would have met Polynesian explorers that had already been here for a long time.
Rugian Member	Wed Apr 26 18:57:15 Even if this is a credible find, all it proves is that the feather Indians had 100,000 extra years to make something of this hemisphere, and utterly failed. They have ZERO right to bitch about us bringing civilization to the Americas.
kargen Member	Wed Apr 26 19:09:27 In the mid 1990s they discovered human remains and tools that dated much earlier than when the "native Americans" arrived. The skull construction was different and other traits showed the people were unrelated to "native Americans" and were here much earlier. Two tribes in the area claimed the sight was ancestral and convinced the Army Corp of Engineers to cement over the excavation sight. There have been other findings that have put the dates of early arrivals much earlier than when "native Americans" arrived but so far they have been able to claim ancestral rights to the artifacts and deny access so they can be studied. The "native Americans" are afraid if they were not here first they might lose their special status where they get just about everything for free.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Apr 26 21:34:58 I often wondered how they could have come here and worked their way all the way down to South America and built the sophisticated civilizations they did in just 10,000 years.
murder Member	Wed Apr 26 22:19:05 Europeans did it. :o)
obaminated Member	Wed Apr 26 22:50:41 Considering we have yet to find a humanoid fossil in North America that dates beyond 20k years ago, I'm thinking this is a fluke.
murder Member	Thu Apr 27 10:07:50 Anyway, how do they know that those were human tools? How do they know that Mastodons didn't make their own tools? It's not as if tool making is exclusive to man. Maybe the archeologists stumbled upon the remnants of a Mastodon clinic. Maybe what they found was evidence of a Mastodon outpatient medical procedure gone wrong. Or maybe it was the lair of a Mastodon cannibal ... or even a serial killer. People shouldn't underestimate Mastodons.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Thu Apr 27 10:13:40 ^ true dat
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Apr 27 17:31:14 Mastodons don't have any thumbs.
pillz Member	Thu Apr 27 19:16:25 Dont need a thumb to hold a rock when you've got a trunk.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Apr 27 21:05:13 Good point. But you need a thumb to polish your tool into a more effective thing to work with. Don't you?
pillz Member	Thu Apr 27 21:07:06 How the fuck should i know what else they can accomplish. Theyre fucking mastodons.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Thu Apr 27 21:19:48 ^ true dat
The Children Member	Fri Apr 28 00:46:43 u see those chinese writings...it is chinese writings!!! enough said. some chinaman mustve been in those lands. period. 5000 years ago!?
murder Member	Fri Apr 28 07:07:59 "But you need a thumb to polish your tool into a more effective thing to work with." There's more than one way to polish your tool. An opposable thumb is helpful, but not essential. But I think we've veered off the subject.
kargen Member	Fri Apr 28 11:31:34 No The Children nobody saw any ancient Chinese drawings in the desert of New Mexico because there are not any.
The Children Member	Fri Apr 28 11:41:50 are u a moron? what is this then? http://www...New-World-3-300-years-ago.html owned
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Apr 28 11:47:55 a bunch of common shapes that look nothing like the chinese ones... we've been over this
Fred Felcher Member	Fri Apr 28 15:21:23 One looks vaguely similar to a tuna sandwich and another looks like a loaf of artisan bread.
kargen Member	Fri Apr 28 17:41:36 The Children John Ruskamp was proven to be a fraud years ago. Not only a fraud but a moron that can't distinguish obvious differences in stick figures. Ya see he wanted to sell books to idiots so he made a bunch of shit up. So no in fact I am not "owned" and you are one of the idiots in that morons target audience.
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