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Utopia Talk / Politics / Castro
Seb
Member
Sat Nov 26 23:12:32
Can anyone name one thing he achieved in govt after taking power that couldn't have been achieved by a social democrat govt without all the killing and repression?
earthpig
GTFO HOer
Sat Nov 26 23:37:13
Defeating the Bay of Pigs Invasion could not have happened "without all the killing."
Aeros
Member
Sat Nov 26 23:38:01
He got the Soviet Union to give him boatloads of money it did not have. I guess that counts for something.
obaminated
Member
Sat Nov 26 23:38:43
That's a very difficult thing to ascertain, you dumbass. Maybe people are willing to give up their freedom in exchange for government promises to the extreme castro went to, but he needed to use violence to get there. Quick question, has there ever been a communist country that didn't resort to violence to achieve their ends? Maybe there's a lesson there.
Sam Adams
Member
Sun Nov 27 00:01:40
bankrupting the country and leaving it a backwards hellhole?
McKobb
Member
Sun Nov 27 00:56:42
The US tourist is Cuba's new sugar daddy.
jergul
large member
Sun Nov 27 03:36:58
A Chlean solution to the Cuban question you mean Seb?

Pinochet is what you get with social democratic experiments in the face of extreme US hostility.
Sam Adams
Member
Sun Nov 27 07:22:25
And yet chile is now the most advanced of the south american countries, while cuba is fleed on rafts. Interesting...
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun Nov 27 07:53:37
You don't have to use chile as an example here. Costa Rica for example, is often cited as a country that made similar improvements to education and health care, and they did it without trashing every freedom out there. Or the market
jergul
large member
Sun Nov 27 08:10:02
What the hell is interesting about the US sanctioning the crap out of a country, then denoting smugly that the embargo has an impact on the economy?

Sam: "German and Japanese architects are crap. Look at all the buildings that collapsed between 1943 and 1945".

murder
Member
Sun Nov 27 11:01:46

"Defeating the Bay of Pigs Invasion could not have happened "without all the killing."

Or the help of the Kennedy administration.

murder
Member
Sun Nov 27 11:06:50

"Can anyone name one thing he achieved in govt after taking power that couldn't have been achieved by a social democrat govt without all the killing and repression?"

Seb: Forget the killing and repression ... what did he achieve?


Seb
Member
Sun Nov 27 11:19:57
Earthpig:

Social democrat govts can't put down invasions?

OK should have been clearer - all the killing and repression required to keep his administration in power rather than any other form of govt.

Onbaminated:
"Quick question, has there ever been a communist country that didn't resort to violence to achieve their ends? Maybe there's a lesson there"
Idiot. You missed the point.

Seb
Member
Sun Nov 27 11:30:44
Jergul:

You dont think the Cuban missile crisis affected the US view of Allende?

CR had it right with Costa Rica - which had a social democratic system with universal healthcare, following a revolution in 1947 against a corrupt govt that was backed by US corporate interests.

The main differences is that rather than reaching out to so soviet Russia, and instituting a military junta and dictatorship; the leader of the revolution drafted a social democratic constitution, made clear that costa Rica wanted good relationship with the US, disbanded the army and then resigned triggering free and fair elections.

This is precisely the foil for all this crap about Castro achieving anything, or being forced to engage in repression because of the US.

The US has not behaved well in Latin America, but part of that has been due to Russia's attempts to use Latin America as a proxy against the US.

Costa Rica demonstrates that the US in the post war period was perfectly willing to accept social democracy. It's political and military alliances with the Soviet union that was the problem.

CR:
Grr. Stole my thunder. I'm obviously getting too predictable.
Seb
Member
Sun Nov 27 11:34:11
Murder:

Some people claim he has put together a wonderful health care system. But Cuban in law's (both refugee side and those still living there) say this is not the case anyway.

Point is to deflate the "but he made the trains run on time". You don't need Mussolini to do that. And political repression and butchery are too high a price to pay for punctual trains.

Getting into an argument of just what degree of quality the healthcare provision provides in Cuba would miss the point.

It's not what dictators accomplish. It's what dictators accomplish that others couldn't, and if anything whether it is really worth the cost.

williamthebastard
Member
Sun Nov 27 11:42:42
He might not have thought that he needed to remain in charge to make society fuction but to "protect their system" from capitalism etc
jergul
large member
Sun Nov 27 11:56:21
You think the Missile Crisis (or and example of US overreach that was dangerous only if the USSR was unwilling to negotiate a quid pro quo in regards to Turkey) was not brought on by the Bay of Pigs?

Castro's Cuba is an American creation.

If you don't like it, then blame successive US administrations.
jergul
large member
Sun Nov 27 12:01:07
Incidentally, not a dictator so much as a tyrant (his daughter's nuanced understanding). He occassionally was able to set aside Cuban law in a number of what still amounts to isolated incidents.

A dictator rules by decrees that are followed.

A tyrant can give illegal instructions that are followed.

And what exactly could any country achieve when under the kind of blocade Cuba was?

Its like blaming Germany and Japan for crappy architecture as demonstrated by buildings collapsing during the war after bombs hit them.
murder
Member
Sun Nov 27 12:13:58

"You think the Missile Crisis (or and example of US overreach that was dangerous only if the USSR was unwilling to negotiate a quid pro quo in regards to Turkey) was not brought on by the Bay of Pigs?"

jergul: People bring up the Bay of Pigs as if it was anything other than the Kennedy administration trying to rid itself an undesirable element of poorly equipped CIA trained exiled Cubans.

Seb
Member
Sun Nov 27 12:50:50
WtB: yes, but that is the argument most dictators use. Let the people decide if they need the rulers benevolence.

Jergul:
Typical apologism for dictators.

williamthebastard
Member
Sun Nov 27 13:14:11
Im naturally not defending him, just saying his thoughts may not have been that only he can run the public system. Maybe more that only he can protect it from the USA etc
murder
Member
Sun Nov 27 13:21:51

"Maybe more that only he can protect it from the USA etc"

He couldn't protect it from anyone. Cuba is for all intents undefended.

williamthebastard
Member
Sun Nov 27 13:23:29
Didnt necessarily mean military-wise, more ideologically, politically etc, no cuban leader can defend cuba against the US militart
murder
Member
Sun Nov 27 13:28:46

Or economically, or anything. The Cuban government exists pretty much just to suppress dissension.

jergul
large member
Sun Nov 27 14:22:46
Seb
lulz. He left power in 2006 and is now dead.

You asked a question and it was answered.

No social democracy could have withstood the pressure Cuba was under, and would have fared far worse than Cuba until it became an authoritarian regime capable of mobilizing State power efficiently to withstand foreign aggression.

The lessons there is for the west to stop engaging in acts of war against other countries.

Because democracy.

For a model of embargo. See South Africa.
jergul
large member
Sun Nov 27 14:25:09
Murder
That could be the case, but it would still be reasonable for Cuba to consider US aggression to be an existential threat.
jergul
large member
Sun Nov 27 14:26:04
I am so incredibly happy that the UK is done with its role as a power with even regional influence.

Something is seriously wrong with how its elite processes information.
jergul
large member
Sun Nov 27 14:27:44
Cuba sucks in the same way Turkey does in my opinion. Neither are attractive regimes, but vilification as a form of religious expression is something I find extremely distasteful.
Seb
Member
Sun Nov 27 14:52:46
Jergul:

The dictatorship doesn't have to be contemporaneous for you to apologise for it.

A social democracy that didn't ally itself to soviet Russia wouldn't have come under pressure from the US. See Costa Rica.

If you want to trace things back to source, it's soviet Russia's intent to export revolution and desire to secure a buffer zone at the end of ww2.

Seb
Member
Sun Nov 27 14:54:22
Jergul:

I see, you think vilifying Castro is vilifying Cuba. L'estat, c'est il.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Nov 27 15:09:36

Seb - Can anyone name one thing he achieved in govt after taking power that couldn't have been achieved by a social democrat govt without all the killing and repression?


Not sure if this counts, but they are still driving a lot of 1950's era American cars. That's a plus.

The only problem is they are being held together with handmade parts and are not original.

jergul
large member
Sun Nov 27 15:23:54
Seb
The Bay of Pigs happened before alignment to the USSR...and what are you saying? That joining alliances justify extreme measures? That certainly puts a twist on Nato expansion. So Putin is justified doing anything as a reaction to Nato expansion?

The USSR gave up on exporting revolution in the 30s. Revolution in one country. Stalin's thing. That US decision-makers believed in a domino theory is their problem.

Buffer zones are fine. See US missiles in Turkey at the time the USSR wanted to deploy missiles to Cuba.

I think that your tendency to vilify heads of state is you worshiping a cult of personality.

Weak minds and all that. I get that you find it attractive.
jergul
large member
Sun Nov 27 15:24:44
worshiping cults of personalities*

You have assembled quite a list of deities.
Seb
Member
Sun Nov 27 15:31:29
"buffer zone are fine" - so imposing soviet client regime is fine, but US doing so (which is your allegation) is not?
jergul
large member
Sun Nov 27 15:38:53
My thesis is that countries can freely choose their aligment. Cuba made its choice, though the choice was forced and based on existential considerations.

Same thing Turkey did. And the trade off (no missiles in Turkey, no missiles on Cuba) was fair and equitable.

That Kennedy needed to portray a negotiation that the USSR won (net gain - missiles removed from Turkey) as a US victory is simply a rather sad commentary on internal US politics at the time.

But by all means. Pray continue with your worship of personalities.

pfft.
McKobb
Member
Sun Nov 27 15:46:42
It will be fun going to Cuba next year and breathing Fidel free air!
Seb
Member
Sun Nov 27 16:03:23
Jergul:

Made its "choice" did it? Many of my in-laws would disagree.

And that's the point - Castro didn't need to ban political opposition and persecute it.

He - not Cuba - chose to.

You literally cannot stop apologising for the nastiest people in history.
murder
Member
Sun Nov 27 16:14:30

"The Bay of Pigs happened before alignment to the USSR"

jergul: Castro was always aligned with the Soviets. Or do you think every revolutionary general with no army gets the celebrity treatment from the NY Times?

Seb
Member
Sun Nov 27 16:28:52
Jergul:

Kruschev and Cuba established relationship in 1960 with support.. A year before bay of pigs.
Seb
Member
Sun Nov 27 16:30:12
murder:

Not true, initially Russia thought of Castro was working for the CIA - they had relations with the Cuban Communists that at the time of the revolution were distinct from Castro, who misled them on that point.
jergul
large member
Sun Nov 27 16:54:54
Seb
You literally cannot stop with your cult of personalities. The heroic world view has been descredited a long time ago.

The regime in Cuba was far more than just Castro. And remains far more than just Castro.

Castro did not ban shit. The country always had a legislature that banned lots of stuff. Which Castro did on at least one occassion countermand (hence tyrant).

If you do not want countries to enact war measure legislature, then perhaps try not to wage war against them?

And fuck your inlaws. Since you keep harping on about them. Whine, whine whine. Its all emigrees seem to do.

You crazy reactionaries marginalize moderate voices, then are suprised by brexit and trump.

I wil say again: Pfft.

Murder

"After the revolution

The Cuban Revolution which propelled Fidel Castro to power on January 1, 1959, initially attracted little attention in Moscow. Soviet planners, resigned to U.S. dominance over the Western hemisphere, were unprepared for the possibility of a future ally in the region. According to later testimonies from Nikita Khrushchev, neither the Soviet Communist Party Central Committee’s nor KGB intelligence had any idea who Castro was or what he was fighting for. Soviet premier Nikita Khrushchev advised them to consult Cuba’s Communists who reported that Castro was a representative of the "haute bourgeoisie" and working for the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency.[3]

In February 1960 Khrushchev sent his deputy Anastas Mikoyan to Cuba to discover what motivated Castro following Castro's failed trip to Washington where he was refused a meeting with President Dwight D. Eisenhower.[4] According to reports, Khrushchev's aides had initially tried to characterize Castro as an untrustworthy American agent.[3] Mikoyan returned from Cuba with the opinion that Castro's new administration should be helped economically and politically. Though there was no talk yet of military assistance.

Washington's increasing economic embargo led Cuba to hurriedly seek new markets to avert economic disaster. Castro asked for help from the Soviets and in response Khrushchev approved the temporary purchase of Cuban sugar in exchange for Soviet fuel. This deal was to play a part in sustaining the Cuban economy for many years to come. Following the failed Bay of Pigs Invasion of 1961, Fidel Castro announced publicly that Cuba was to become a socialist republic. Khrushchev sent congratulations to Castro for repelling the invasion, but privately believed the Americans would soon bring the weight of their regular army to bear. The defense of Cuba became a matter of prestige for the Soviet Union, and Khruschev believed that the U.S. would block all access to the island whether by sea or air. Even in the 1980s the Soviet aid wasn't very important, but rather a regular trade with Cuba of more than $8.5 billion in 1989 was reached. But already in 1990 the trade was reduced to $4.5 billion.[5]
Cuban Missile Crisis
Main article: Cuban Missile Crisis

Khrushchev agreed on a deployment plan in May 1962 chiefly in response to NATO positioning their nuclear missiles in Turkey in 1958, and by late July over sixty Soviet ships were en route to Cuba, some of them already carrying military material. A U.S. U-2 flight on the morning of October 14 photographed a series of SAM (surface-to-air missile) sites being constructed. In a televised address on October 22, U.S. President John F. Kennedy announced the discovery of the installations and proclaimed that any nuclear missile attack from Cuba would be regarded as an attack by the Soviet Union and would be responded to accordingly. Khrushchev sent letters to Kennedy on October 23 and 24 claiming the deterrent nature of the missiles in Cuba and the peaceful intentions of the Soviet Union. On October 26, the Soviets offered to withdraw the missiles in return for a U.S. guarantee not to invade Cuba or support any invasion and to remove all missiles set in southern Italy and in Turkey. This deal was accepted and the crisis abated.

The missile crisis had a significant impact on the countries involved. While it led to a thaw in U.S.-Soviet relations, it significantly strained Cuban-Soviet relations. Castro was not consulted throughout the Kennedy-Khrushchev negotiations and the unilateral Soviet withdrawal of the missiles and bombers wounded Castro's pride and prestige.[6] It also began to establish Castro and his country as a perennial thorn in the side of the United States even beyond the fact of its communist revolution."

Wiki

Thats about my perspective on it. Castro was a huge consumer of American culture. The choice to go soviet style was forced by american policy.

He would have been happy with Scandinavian style social democracy (which had pretty autoritarian characteristics in the 50s) if that had been an option.

Which, in the face of invasion, embargo, and assasination schemes (Castro was not the only target), it was not.


murder
Member
Sun Nov 27 17:07:10

"Not true, initially Russia thought of Castro was working for the CIA"

Seb: Working with the CIA to overthrow a US backed dictator?

murder
Member
Sun Nov 27 17:17:15

"The choice to go soviet style was forced by american policy."

jergul: Before Fidel finally admitted being a communist, he repeatedly denied that he was. Do you know why he repeatedly denied that he was? Because he was repeatedly questioned about ... because it wasn't much of a secret.

Fidel outing himself as a communist was as much of a surprise as revelations about Liberace's sexuality.

Seb
Member
Sun Nov 27 17:17:25
murder:

Indeed. Soviets were dealing with their clients who were vying with Castro for control of the revolution, and not particularly interested seeing the western hemisphere as lost from their perspective.

Kinda like how we got played so many times in Afghanistan and Iraq by tribal politics. Same shit. Russian's didn't have enough contextual knowledge to disbelieve their proxies.

jergul:

This feels somewhat like the argument that Hitler didn't actually order the final solution.

"And fuck your inlaws. Since you keep harping on about them. Whine, whine whine. Its all emigrees seem to do."

Told you, they still live there. Pay attention.

As ever, the only bad people in the world are the US. You'll be telling us all how bad they were to invade Germany in the 40's next. Typical contrarian: brain fell out, and no guiding principles except "the americans did it!".
Seb
Member
Sun Nov 27 18:05:27
Jergul:

You've become quite the vituperative shrew. Lots of effing and binding. not really you. Everything OK at home?
McKobb
Member
Mon Nov 28 00:37:36
What do you expect of a candle eater, man!
jergul
large member
Mon Nov 28 02:55:53
Seb
The problem is you. I realize you are using this forum to dry run ideas, but jesus how your world view sucks.

Using informants as qualitative data sources is troublesome at best (the method is quite convoluted). Citing crap your inlaws mull over is the political science equivalent of pointing to snow on the ground as an argument in the climate debate.

Very gay. Very, very gay.

There are lots of problems in the world. The US is one of them. I have stated in this thread that Cuba and Turkey are the same kind of undelicate regimes and have been the same kind for quite some time.

In the same way I have stated that the annexation of Crimea is worse than the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

I see many problems in the world in other words.

Cuba has issues. But the worst detention system on the island remains GTMO. And nothing Cuba has done compares to Abu Graib.

You are such a bitch, seb.
Seb
Member
Mon Nov 28 07:24:24
Jergul:

I can't hear anything productive over the squeaking.
Seb
Member
Mon Nov 28 07:27:12
Actually, I'll think you'll find there is plenty worse than Abu Graib that happened in Cuba, you are just not aware of it.

Which is fine. Your a fisherman in northern Europe.
jergul
large member
Mon Nov 28 08:37:45
Seb: "cant't hear anything productive over the squeaking."

Thank you for sharing your workplace and homelife ambiance with us, buddy.

And lulz at "I'll think". This is what goes for the best and brightest in the UK these days?

You think Seb. Why not give thinking a shot? Since you suggested it and all.

swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Mon Nov 28 08:52:36
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WApT5wYHSCg
Seb
Member
Mon Nov 28 09:16:14
Jergul:

Still just getting shrill, high pitched squeaks, as if from a distressed shrew.
jergul
large member
Mon Nov 28 09:22:03
Be a man and tell your wife to shut up.
Seb
Member
Mon Nov 28 09:37:25
A long lie down in a darkened room will help jergul.
jergul
large member
Mon Nov 28 09:55:02
Then you should do that. Ear plugs may help too, but ultimately, you need to grow a pair and tell your wife to shut the fuck up.
Seb
Member
Mon Nov 28 10:16:50
Well, I think you know what noise I was referring to, my dear shrew.

But it is insightful to understand how you treat your wife, and this may explain some of the angst you are displaying. Has she left? Perhaps for a shelter? Or are you just not getting any?
jergul
large member
Mon Nov 28 11:47:49
cool story, bro.
Seb
Member
Mon Nov 28 12:19:35
I think Jergul has been replaced by a chat bot. Not a terribly complex one.
jergul
large member
Mon Nov 28 12:37:41
I think Seb has been replaced by a P.G. Wodehouse drone. Not a terribly complex one.
Seb
Member
Mon Nov 28 17:04:28
See, it parses input and replaces subject and object with nouns from a pre-stocked config file.
jergul
large member
Tue Nov 29 02:21:17
cool story, sis.
murder
Member
Wed Nov 30 09:34:45

"Cuba has issues. But the worst detention system on the island remains GTMO. And nothing Cuba has done compares to Abu Graib."

jergul: One thing is for sure ... if some idiot guard at a Cuban prison took pictures of abuse and posted them online, that guard wouldn't be around to testify.

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