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Utopia Talk / Politics / Game of thrones:Battle of Bastards
Im better then you
2012 UP Football Champ
Mon Jun 20 12:21:29
59 mins of nudity, mild violence, and adult situations.


One of the greatest episodes of all time visually speaking but still hard forgive giant plot holes with Arya/wolverine and not even bothering to change the Castle Black set to Winterfell set.


Rugian
Member
Mon Jun 20 13:19:35
The cinematography was fan-fucking-tastic, full props to the director there. But even here, I felt that the underlying material wasn't particularly strong.

Let's review:

*This is the first time in five episodes that we've seen Ramsey. I don't know who told the writers that it's an excellent idea to have characters go on extended absences, then bring them back and immediately kill them, but it seriously undermines the emotional impact of the deaths. Ramsey should have been completely in our faces in the episodes leading up to this one.

*No one gave two shits about Rickon, sorry. That's what happens when you invest zero time in a character over the course of six (six!) years. Goodbye, walking plot device.

*Sansa: "Hey Jon, say hello to the army of Arryn. I'm sorry I didn't tell them that they were coming before you decided to throw all of your men against a numerically superior enemy."

*Daenerys is boring as fuck, and her catchphrases are becoming tiresome. "My reign has only just begun," cue Daenerys music and setting things on fire, yawn.

*Did Davos think to follow up with Mel about Shireen at any point between when he last asked about it and now? Jesus man, way to let that fall of the radar.

*Oh hi Yara and Theon. Nice of you to just...show up, all of a sudden.

*The dialogue is just not that strong anymore, I don't know what it is. Sansa had a few good lines against Ramsey, but characters are frequently saying shit that is really awkward and/or makes no sense in context (Varys going hardcore atheist during political negotiations with a priestess was particularly cringeworthy).

Game of Thrones over the last two seasons has been about a show with awesome battles but mediocre plot and character development. This show supposedly has less than 20 episodes to go, and even with its incredibly rushed pace as of late (except for the Arya storyline, which Went. Fucking. NOWHERE for two goddamn years), there's still a shitload of ground left to cover. Seasons 7 and 8 will probably have a couple of epic battles with the army of the undead, but other than that I don't think the show will ever recover its previously high standard of quality.

That having been said, the combat scenes were fucking excellent.
hood
Member
Mon Jun 20 13:30:33
Oh, thank you for reminding me. Jon snow wanting Ramsey to go "full tilt." That phrase did not belong. At all.

"Varys going hardcore atheist during political negotiations with a priestess was particularly cringeworthy"

That was just your general angst against anything anti religion.
CrownRoyal
Member
Mon Jun 20 13:32:10
I agree with what Rugian said. I think all the problems became more pronounced this season, first season without the books. At least for me it did. Perhaps, before this season, when events were kind of disjointed, or the dialogue sounded nonsensical, when the pace was rushed, in my head it was corrected by the books content, I kind of compensated for whatever was missing by knowing what happened in the books and imagining. (Not sure how people who haven't read books felt about the previous seasons). But this season it is all very clear, all the warts and shortcomings. And I don't know if it is fixable. Maybe you need a 30 episode seasons to do justice to the books. And even that is no guarantee of success
Rugian
Member
Mon Jun 20 13:36:20
It's freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. Meereenese government has no right to prevent the servants of R'hllor from worshipping their god in the manner that they please (burning children).
CrownRoyal
Member
Mon Jun 20 13:43:56
"Meereenese government has no right to prevent the servants of R'hllor from worshipping their god in the manner that they please (burning children)."

Interesting. Can meereenese govt stop abortions though? What if R'hlorr requires aborted fetuses instead of burnings?
Rugian
Member
Mon Jun 20 13:46:55
Find me anything in the Meereenese constitution that says that women have a right to abortion. You can't find it. Meereenese women can be forced to carry the kid to term, it's their own fault anyway for having sex.

Once the kid IS born though, burn away.
Rugian
Member
Mon Jun 20 13:48:32
And don't even get me started on the Meereenese government's attempts to disarm its citizenry by force. The government has no fucking right whatsoever to run a background check on me just because I chose to exercise my constitutional right to buy a knife and a golden mask.
CrownRoyal
Member
Mon Jun 20 13:49:20
"Find me anything in the Meereenese constitution that says that women have a right to abortion. "

I said as a religious ceremony. Something that R'hlorr demands. You know, freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.
Rugian
Member
Mon Jun 20 13:53:04
Who in their right mind would even consider aborting a shadow demon though?
State Department
Member
Mon Jun 20 13:53:29
Remember, always run from an archer in a straight line.
CrownRoyal
Member
Mon Jun 20 13:56:29
"Who in their right mind would even consider aborting a shadow demon though?"

Well, we are talking about the religious folks, so I am on the same page with you, about them not being in the right state of mind.
CrownRoyal
Member
Mon Jun 20 14:00:21
Dear Rickon


http://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClakUjQXEAAqVoj.jpg:large
Asgard
Member
Mon Jun 20 14:12:23
"*The dialogue is just not that strong anymore, I don't know what it is. "

You don't know what it is?

It's just screenwriters improvising without a BOOK to follow now. That is exactly what it is.
Cthulhu
Tentacle Rapist
Mon Jun 20 17:08:21
Ya but screenwriters are supposed to be professional writers. After years on the same project, they should have had enough forward planning to make due without the books
Paramount
Member
Mon Jun 20 17:20:02
"screenwriters are supposed to be professional "

Yeah, supposed. But there are those who aren't and they are like burger flippers. They go to work and do their shit and then go back home again as fast as they can. They only do what is required of them, nothing more. So we get ordinary dialogue, not pro dialogues.
Cthulhu
Tentacle Rapist
Mon Jun 20 17:22:14
Ya, it's kind of pathetic really. Given the mass budgets these programs get, and the revenues they bring in, you'd think they would protect their investment by demanding professional quality stuff. Reminds me of season 3 of battlestar
honest politician
Member
Mon Jun 20 17:38:18
Agree with Rugian also.

There's a lot going on this season, and instead of being so jumpy like the previous seasons which had lots of scenes with only a few lines of dialogue then skipping along but coming back again later, they focused a lot more on fewer plotlines per episode.

When you don't see Ramsey after he feeds the dogs it dulls the hatred they want you to have for him. We saw Joffrey being a royal dick way more often. Ramsey was likeable though, the character is played very well. Ensign Rickon, the useful pawn, had to run in a straight line to die to stir something up in John, but who cares, do the wrong thing and get to the obviously disastrous fighting. Who the hell would have taught him to run zig-zag anyway, he was a young kid and only kept safe by the wildling chick / Tonks.

Another example is dafuq happening with Bran? Haven't seen him for a while, something about imminent danger? And Sam probably snivelling about protecting Gilly and the baybay. It just seems that time is passing between each event even though it's supposed to be more simultaneous.

Fucking Danaerys, that smug, glassy-eyed stare with big tough words but has been shown to be so incompetent and helpless is really annoying. The scene with Yara is just a SJW "GURL POWER" moment since it's Victarion in the books. But more women CEOs etc, that's another character to develop with only 52 minutes per episode. I mean, who has the time?

Arya could have done a bit more but it's time time to bring her home, that plot wasn't going to go any further that is relevant to the TV show so why waste the budget. Same with Dorne, not relevant enough to the main arc.

The quality is slipping a bit, and I've been fucking sick of Dany, Lord Friendzone, and Boring Worm since Season 2.

Cherub Cow
Member
Mon Jun 20 18:20:48
[Hood]: "The siege of mereen was glossed over with a clifftop meeting and 2 masters dying and a single ship falling to dragon fire? Ok.. didn't even bother to show a few shops surrendering?"

I think it was an acceptable run-time compromise for them to show the peeps on one ship in awe of the dragons and to show more ships burning in the background of the cliff after the first ship was destroyed (at least a few ships look destroyed in those shots). Plus, without the masters, it wouldn't be long before the ships would give up; they demonstrated via that master's mini-group running away that a slave army has little or no motive to remain loyal or to keep up a fight.

..
[Hood]: "And then! Jon snow received no injury? He dodges all arrows, doesn't even get cut on the field, never has a glancing graze from an arrow in the keep?"

On that they were demonstrating the extreme luck required to survive that kind of battle, and it was intentional on the part of the writers. It was a message on battlefield chaos and also showing that Jon's success couldn't simply be predicted by his skill or poise (he didn't even *dodge* those arrows, he just got lucky). That was something they boosted with Melisandre's talk with him, where she really couldn't predict whether or not Jon would make it any more than she could for Stannis.

..
[Hood]: "The scene with the dogs seemed a bit too poetic."

I liked it well enough! :p Sansa needed that! I might have preferred her cutting him, but using the hounds was a better way to make sure that there would be no reversal.. like he might have bitten her or something.

..
[Rugian]: "I don't know who told the writers that it's an excellent idea to have characters go on extended absences, then bring them back and immediately kill them, but it seriously undermines the emotional impact of the deaths."

That's debatable. It may just be a matter of audience memory, and I think most audiences would remember Ramsey's actions. This also boosts the show's theme that these people themselves do not see each other for months between these extreme events. The last time Sansa saw Ramsey was when she fled the castle, but she remembers his actions and didn't need a reminder. These people have to remember their histories in order to direct themselves (Daenerys would have been fine living in obscurity if she'd forgotten her family destiny or the way it had been "wronged"). Plus, that technique of over-building a character who is about to die can actually be risky, because it can telegraph the outcome (audiences may see how contrived it is for a show to suddenly spend time on a character only to kill them, like, "Oh, we're getting a lot of info about these characters — they must be about to die").

And in a show like this it's especially important not to over-build a character who is about to die because the writers have been sure to show how rare it is for vengeance to come full circle for the actual people involved in the wrongdoing. In most cases this show has intentionally put a divide between a character's despicable acts and the means of that character's demise (like when Locke cut off Jaime's hand and then died randomly North of the wall via a warged Hodor; no direct vengeance for Jaime) — it is not a vengeance for the audience to own, because vengeance is so rarely owned by anyone except within immediate moments (like being hit and immediately hitting back). So it was just as lucky for Jon to survive that battle as it was for Sansa to get to dole out punishment for a personal trauma. It was a rare case of vengeance actually taking place, and even then it required extreme battlefield chance and Sansa's visceral memory of Ramsey's wrongdoing for her to be satisfied.

..
[Rugian]: "No one gave two shits about Rickon, sorry. That's what happens when you invest zero time in a character over the course of six (six!) years. Goodbye, walking plot device."

Jon cared, and if that wasn't obvious enough then the writers were sure to explain repeatedly how problematic it is that Rickon was one of the last "real" Starks left, given that Bran is in his own world, Jon is a bastard, and Sansa may not wise up and give someone else *her* name ;) .. so it wasn't about feeling bad for Rickon (who in the audience would?), it was about seeing an honorable house gradually collapse, with its survival becoming progressively more obscure and desperate (very symbolic for Jon to run towards one of the Stark's last male heirs like that).

..
[Rugian]: *Sansa: "Hey Jon, say hello to the army of Arryn. I'm sorry I didn't tell them that they were coming before you decided to throw all of your men against a numerically superior enemy."

Remember how she kept wanting Jon to wait? She may not know strategy like Jon claims to know it, so she may not have been confident that reinforcements would actually arrive at all (to be seen? Like maybe she still didn't trust Littlefinger), but she *did* seem to know that they needed more time for more men (several big conversations to this effect).

..
[Rugian]: "*Did Davos think to follow up with Mel about Shireen at any point between when he last asked about it and now? Jesus man, way to let that fall of the radar."

Seems that he did not know that Melisandre was behind Shireen's death, and he probably didn't *want* to know details (probably suspected that she was slain in the rear while Stannis' camp was being pillaged). Or if he'd asked, Melisandre could have simply omitted the details and that would have been it. The wooden stag gave him evidence and doubt that he did not previously have..

..
[Rugian]: "*Oh hi Yara and Theon. Nice of you to just...show up, all of a sudden ... Varys going hardcore atheist during political negotiations with a priestess was particularly cringeworthy"

Especially nice of them to have *just* had an episode that showed that Yara and Theon were en route. These have become petty non-complaints that ignore the show's own plot revelations. Like it was 100% within Varys' character to chastise the priestess like that. His entire story line is based on his understanding that people in power do crazed things in the name of mystics/belief. That negotiation was his chance to force someone without immediate power to account for the flawed reasoning of belief.

..
[State Department]: "Remember, always run from an archer in a straight line."

Maybe they felt like that scene was already too nearly sampling from Apocalypto ;)

..
[CrownRoyal]: "(Not sure how people who haven't read books felt about the previous seasons)"

I haven't read the books and I think the quality has been great! :)
I think the show has actually been making positive moves forward, particularly by having important dialogues with a lot of depth and character history behind them (maybe not even possible without being this far into the series). And for me this most recent episode may also have been the most intense episode of the entire series.

Also worth mentioning (again) that they have *continued* to use George R.R. Martin's outlines and important dialogues, so complaints about the show may turn out to be [uncomfortably?] close to complaints about the book itself for the elitists who thought that they were only mocking the show writers (that is: if you don't like the show plot/dialogue right now, you can probably blame George R.R. Martin himself instead of just indirectly blaming the show for some perceived departure that cannot even be quantified). I even expect that the writing they've done after the book world "ended" has actually been even *closer* to the books, because the writers no longer have to change things to surprise the readers. To be seen, but in general I think it's near idiotic to complain too much about deviations from book to screen. Even when I've intensely loved a book I didn't feel offended by a movie version simply because it was different — it should be judged entirely separately by its own language (as cinema does have its own language).

..
"The scene with Yara is just a SJW "GURL POWER" moment since it's Victarion in the books"

That statement can't be accurate without totally ignoring Daenerys' power (or does her brother end up ruling in the book? Probably not, I'd expect). This show has been making social critiques on the idiotic misogyny of male/female power dynamics from the very first season, so Daenerys getting a chance to approve of Yara's rise to power should hardly be some post-fact SJW-placating re-write.
Paramount
Member
Mon Jun 20 18:30:47
"I liked it well enough! :p Sansa needed that! I might have preferred her cutting him, but using the hounds was a better way to make sure that there would be no reversal.. like he might have bitten her or something. "


If the dog ate him, it means that his remains will eventually come out from the dogs asses. If the screenwriters wants, they could probably revive him.
Renzo Marquez
Member
Mon Jun 20 18:50:36
Cthulhu
Tentacle Rapist Mon Jun 20 17:08:21
"Ya but screenwriters are supposed to be professional writers. After years on the same project, they should have had enough forward planning to make due without the books"

The TV series was created by (((David Benioff))) and (((DB Weiss))). You can't expect them to come up with original content. Kikeowitzs are better at stealing/adapting from others than coming up with their own original ideas.
Rugian
Member
Mon Jun 20 19:03:00
"That's debatable. It may just be a matter of audience memory, and I think most audiences would remember Ramsey's actions. This also boosts the show's theme that these people themselves do not see each other for months between these extreme events. The last time Sansa saw Ramsey was when she fled the castle, but she remembers his actions and didn't need a reminder. These people have to remember their histories in order to direct themselves (Daenerys would have been fine living in obscurity if she'd forgotten her family destiny or the way it had been "wronged"). Plus, that technique of over-building a character who is about to die can actually be risky, because it can telegraph the outcome (audiences may see how contrived it is for a show to suddenly spend time on a character only to kill them, like, "Oh, we're getting a lot of info about these characters — they must be about to die")."

I'm not asking for doomed characters to get an inordinate amount of screen time in the hours leading up to their deaths. But there needs to be a balance, and that balance doesn't exist at all - if anything, the characters who die are the ones who are absent for the longest. Maybe that's an intentional move as part of an attempt to break expectations, but the fact is a character who is on screen has a larger audience investment than a character who isn't. No one forgot in the last five episodes that Ramesy was a sadistic evil bastard, but it still lessens the impact of him finally getting his just deserts when he hasn't actually DONE anything in half a season.

"And in a show like this it's especially important not to over-build a character who is about to die because the writers have been sure to show how rare it is for vengeance to come full circle for the actual people involved in the wrongdoing. In most cases this show has intentionally put a divide between a character's despicable acts and the means of that character's demise (like when Locke cut off Jaime's hand and then died randomly North of the wall via a warged Hodor; no direct vengeance for Jaime) — it is not a vengeance for the audience to own, because vengeance is so rarely owned by anyone except within immediate moments (like being hit and immediately hitting back). So it was just as lucky for Jon to survive that battle as it was for Sansa to get to dole out punishment for a personal trauma. It was a rare case of vengeance actually taking place, and even then it required extreme battlefield chance and Sansa's visceral memory of Ramsey's wrongdoing for her to be satisfied."

I get that the show makes a point of breaking expectations - what we think will happen, will be taken in the opposite direction. But that doesn't negate the fact that there are basic narrative structures that are proven to work, and there are those that are proven not to work. Ramsey didn't have to abuse Sansa at all this season in order for Sansa's killing of him to be satisfying, nor did Sansa necessarily need to be the one who killed him at all in order for his death to work. A death at the hands of an unexpected party CAN work, if done correctly. But regardless of all that, a major character like Ramsey, who in the last few seasons has been a virtual constant on the show, can't just disappear for an extended period in the time leading up to his death. Even if we can remember that he's a fucking shithead from the stuff he's done in the past, that's not the same as when the anger toward him is still fresh. The Purple Wedding was an example of the latter - we were constantly hating Joffrey up until the very second he drank the poison. He gloated about Robb and Catelyn's death in the last episode of the third season, he treated Jaime like shit in the first episode of the fourth, and he absolutely shit all over Tyrion in the moments leading up to his death. With Ramsey, we were missing that.

"Jon cared, and if that wasn't obvious enough then the writers were sure to explain repeatedly how problematic it is that Rickon was one of the last "real" Starks left, given that Bran is in his own world, Jon is a bastard, and Sansa may not wise up and give someone else *her* name ;) .. so it wasn't about feeling bad for Rickon (who in the audience would?), it was about seeing an honorable house gradually collapse, with its survival becoming progressively more obscure and desperate (very symbolic for Jon to run towards one of the Stark's last male heirs like that)."

It's all well and good that Jon cared, but that doesn't change the fact that we don't. And to the audience, the Stark collapse happened long ago - we're just dealing with the remnants at this point. Rickon registers so low on the totem pole that his death - which DOES seriously undermine the Stark position - barely registers with anyone. He got zero lines this season, FFS. I don't know if it's because he's a bad actor or going through puberty or whatever, but his character needed to step up and become the personification of the last vestige of the Stark name, and he absolutely failed to do that for the audience's sake.

"Remember how she kept wanting Jon to wait? She may not know strategy like Jon claims to know it, so she may not have been confident that reinforcements would actually arrive at all (to be seen? Like maybe she still didn't trust Littlefinger), but she *did* seem to know that they needed more time for more men (several big conversations to this effect)."

Sorry, but this is a weak justification. Even if she's not confident in Littlefinger's loyalty or timing, it's still CLEARLY better to tell Jon "hey, if we can postpone this battle for a few days, I MIGHT have some massive reinforcements for you. Can't promise anything because Littlefinger is a piece of shit, but at least let that factor into your decision-making." As it stands, her argument that they needed more men was absolutely valueless without this revelation - as far as Jon was concerned, there were no more men to be had. They had attempted to recruit the houses of the North, the Blackfish was dead, so Jon's position was as strong as it was ever going to be.

"Seems that he did not know that Melisandre was behind Shireen's death, and he probably didn't *want* to know details (probably suspected that she was slain in the rear while Stannis' camp was being pillaged). Or if he'd asked, Melisandre could have simply omitted the details and that would have been it. The wooden stag gave him evidence and doubt that he did not previously have.."

MAYBE, but the fact that he tried to press the issue before Brienne (rudely) interrupted them suggests that he did, in fact, want some answers.

"Especially nice of them to have *just* had an episode that showed that Yara and Theon were en route."

Yeah, two episodes ago...in an entirely different city. Sorry, but "en route" is not the same thing as arriving. Some sort of acknowledgement that they had actually gotten to Meereen would have been nice.

"Like it was 100% within Varys' character to chastise the priestess like that."

No no no no no. It was 100% within Varys' character to tow the line during the meeting with the priestess, then vehemently object to Tyrion in private. This is a guy who's been a political mastermind since childhood; every single scene we've seen of him before now has underlined that he's a goddamn genius at acting in the interests of the realm (and him), as opposed to letting petty grievances get in the way. This is the same guy who spent 20 years on Robert Baratheon's Small Council and dutifully nodded his head when Robert wanted to assassinate Dany, all while he was rooting for a Targareyn restoration the entire time. A politician of that caliber doesn't suddenly start "telling it as it is" and dropping truth bombs in a meeting with a potential ally. It completely destroys his character and is inconsistent with what we've seen for the last half a decade.
Rugian
Member
Mon Jun 20 19:03:35
lol & RM, btw
McKobb
Member
Mon Jun 20 21:49:38
CC, read the books.
Arab
Member
Tue Jun 21 01:51:44
Predictable episode. This season has sucked so bad.
State Department
Member
Tue Jun 21 02:39:09
"Maybe they felt like that scene was already too nearly sampling from Apocalypto"

lawl, that was the scene in my mind. Good flick...too bad Mel got blackballed by Jewwywood.
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 21 04:19:52
Hood:

Isn't "full tilt" actually medieval? To tilt means to joust, going full tilt literally means to charge at.
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 21 04:28:02
So I basically thought he was saying "I want all their knights charging at me, fully committed" - a non metaphorical use of the term.
Renzo Marquez
Member
Tue Jun 21 04:47:06
You also think your wife's son is your son.
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 21 06:01:16
Renzo:

Yes. And you think you are witty. One of us is wrong.
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 21 06:01:45
Given my wife doesn't have a son, I think we know who.
hood
Member
Tue Jun 21 07:41:33
Seb: according to two dictionaries, the word originated in the 1600s. Somehow that doesn't seem to match medieval times.
Rugian
Member
Tue Jun 21 07:44:35
When was the term "bad pusseh" invented, do you think that was used in medieval times?
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 21 14:32:13
hood:

1600's - well we've just had several episodes revolving around a pastiche Shakespearean play.

Tilt, or tylte, is much older than 1600 - something like 1510 is the earliest known usage of that word in print to mean joust.

It is "Full tilt" as an expression appears earliest in text around 1600 in the history of tom thumb. However, that is also the earliest remaining print of Tom Thumb, which is old English Folklore and it is known that earlier printed versions (let alone oral versions) of that probably existed too - so that doesn't preclude "full tilt" being a colloquial expression even earlier.

And in GoT there are quite a lot of expressions they use that are more modern than 1500s...


Asgard
Member
Tue Jun 21 14:58:58
"eah, two episodes ago...in an entirely different city. Sorry, but "en route" is not the same thing as arriving. Some sort of acknowledgement that they had actually gotten to Meereen would have been nice. "

Also, seems they sail on super fast nuclear-powered vessels rather than with the power of the wind.
It took Columbus et al months to travel across a relatively short ocean route. It took what looks like two weeks for the Ironborn.

It's just like it took Sansa (one or two episodes ago) just minutes to get from Castle Black to some meeting place that I assume is mid-way the wall and the Vale to meet Little-finger.
While it takes MONTHS to travel from the northernmost castle (Winterfel) to the Wall...

Distances became very short this season.
And it is highly unbelievable.
Forwyn
Member
Tue Jun 21 15:15:17
Volantis to Meereen is a quick trip, just sail around Valyria and you're in Slaver's Bay.

The bigger issue is that they made it to Volantis so fast in the first place. The Iron Islands are west of Westeros, and as far North as the Twins.

This map is pretty good.

http://i.imgur.com/karHvCa.jpg
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Jun 21 17:46:29
[Rugian]: "But that doesn't negate the fact that there are basic narrative structures that are proven to work, and there are those that are proven not to work."

Then it may be a matter of a preference towards traditionalist versus modern writers. Traditionalists often think that nothing could possibly improve beyond the 4th century BCE and Aristotle's poetics (Aristotle's simplified conception of good stories; like the three unities; highly structured stories with predictable patterns of audience emotional investment; stories told for catharsis and audience placation which judge success by how entertained the proles happened to be by the end), whereas modern (or "postmodern") writers attempt to challenge the prole, deny the catharsis, and show that life is not linear, predictable, or structured for digestibility — the ending often being dubious, unfulfilling, and even outright disliked, as indeed life has no closure beyond the enforcement of human lies. Writing for Game of Thrones has very specifically been undermining classical literature (using all of its tropes but breaking their narratives) to show that the postmodern actually makes more realistic sense, like for instance Ramsey's "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention" — a line meant to show that the audience does not fucking matter and a happy ending will be denied. Shit shows like Marvel's Avengers were made with the traditionalist view, but Game of Thrones was not.

..
"Even if we can remember that he's a fucking shithead from the stuff he's done in the past, that's not the same as when the anger toward him is still fresh. The Purple Wedding was an example of the latter."

Also intentional. Remember Ramsey's line to Sansa at the end? "Our time together is about to come to an end. That's alright. You can't kill me. I'm part of you now." He's showing that even though Sansa may be apart from Ramsey (or in meta level: even though there's not some contrived build-up where he's ever-present for the audience up to the moment of some satisfying death), his purpose in the story still remains. Sansa's smile showed that she has been infected by Ramsey's culture of sadism (she *enjoyed* watching him die and did not need to look away; no squeamishness left), so even when Ramsey has been removed from her for long stretches of time, she will be and has become a sadist to some degree. In meta, Ramsey and others do not need to be ever-present for the audience to feel sadistic towards these characters; the audience progressively becomes more sadistic, even beyond narrative concerns.

Purple Wedding was an intro to this. The audience thinks they see "justice" served, but that justice is taken away. Gloating about Robb and Catelyn didn't kill him and neither did treatment of Jaime. And even in the moment directly following Joffrey's death — traditionally the height of narrative artifice wherein the audience who hates Joffrey should feel vindicated by his death — Cersei immediately mis-assigns justice, taking away any real vengeance by blaming the wrong people (a challenge to the "pleasing" effect of Joffrey's death). Instead the audience learns that it was *not* vengeance that killed Joffrey but instead a political move by the Tyrells, who could not care less about Eddard Stark or the Stark family trauma (Stark trauma being the real source of any vengeance catharsis but Stark trauma having no place here).

Even the many-faced god becomes an example of this. Some peeps think the writers have just been wasting time with Arya's story, but the many-faced god story shows a parallel fabric of this entire GoT anti-narrative. The writers have been specifically showing that the empowered Arya loses herself in degrees by chasing vengeance. She gets a few names intentionally crossed off her list (even then, mostly random guards for her escape), but then another (Clegane) removed when she doubts herself. Then she attempts to structure a vengeance narrative by killing Trant but is punished for it (in meta: the narrative itself punishes against its own forms, but then tries to teach the audience against form through Arya's loss and pseudo-regain of identity; Arya is confined in a world where vengeance is shown to be unreal, but like the audience, she attempts to resist the idea — if it turns out that she actually cut off her own face, even better; the audience has to cut off its own metaphoric face to hang onto direct narratives like the legitimacy of a house name).

..
[Rugian]: "It's all well and good that Jon cared, but that doesn't change the fact that we don't."

Good. Mission accomplished by the writers. The audience should feel apathy here, empathizing only through Jon and the traditional narrative structure that fails around him as he tries to maintain his exploits. He runs towards a character that means something to him but nothing to anyone else, desperately fighting for a story which has faded away in the memories of everyone around him (as also the audience). Ramsey watches sadistically, being the actual audience surrogate. He doesn't care. He only squints to watch Jon's face for signs of trauma — the only source of theatrical enjoyment that he can gain.

..
[Rugian]: "Sorry, but this is a weak justification. Even if she's not confident in Littlefinger's loyalty or timing, it's still CLEARLY better to tell Jon "hey, if we can postpone this battle for a few days, I MIGHT have some massive reinforcements for you. Can't promise anything because Littlefinger is a piece of shit, but at least let that factor into your decision-making." As it stands, her argument that they needed more men was absolutely valueless without this revelation - as far as Jon was concerned, there were no more men to be had. They had attempted to recruit the houses of the North, the Blackfish was dead, so Jon's position was as strong as it was ever going to be."

Debatable. It's weak behavior by *her* that she failed to tell Jon that Littlefinger's army might be in play, but it is not weak writing because it had been fully established as part of her character. They covered this at least 3 times (notably initial war council at the wall (S6-E5), Sansa/Jon at camp after recruiting House Mormont (S6-E8), and in this very episode). It was established that...
- Sansa wanted vengeance and wanted to be sure of victory
- That despite her want Sansa did not know how to strategize and was afraid of confronting Jon with certain details, such as an unfavorable alliance with Littlefinger (chamber conversation with Brienne in S6-E5)
- That she wanted Jon to wait (*repeated* use of "we need more men" and heated discussions with Jon about his need to stop being so gung-ho about a quick battle).

So with all of that established, the real issue was that Jon wanted to rush into battle and Sansa couldn't get it through to him that he was being hasty and idiotic (he shutting down conversations with a stubborn warrior's posturing). Jon had put up walls around himself by believing that he alone knew how to battle and that assistance had to be ideal. I kind of doubt that Jon would have allowed Littlefinger to participate if asked. Littlefinger showing up when needed and Jon not caring about the politics for the moment was probably the only way that he *could* be convinced of accepting that form of help. And probably that form of help was very costly to Sansa.. like maybe she'll have to marry the progressively creepy Littlefinger who thinks that Sansa looks like a young version of her mom.

..
[Rugian]: "MAYBE, but the fact that he tried to press the issue before Brienne (rudely) interrupted them suggests that he did, in fact, want some answers."

True. But again, without evidence, he wouldn't even know which questions to ask, and it would only be Melisandre answering them.

..
[Rugian]: "Yeah, two episodes ago...in an entirely different city. Sorry, but 'en route' is not the same thing as arriving. Some sort of acknowledgement that they had actually gotten to Meereen would have been nice."

Reminds me of this S6-E8 exchange:
[Cersei]: "There's to be a royal announcement?"
[Kevan]: "There is."
[Cersei]: "Why wasn't I informed?"
[Kevan]: "There is to be a royal announcement — in the throne room — at this very moment."

It's really academic, isn't it? Does a ship need to be shown on its entire, mundane Odyssey journey, or can it be seen departing, then shored on Voltanis halfway to its destination, and then can the most important occupants be shown at the throne room of their destination? The mundane blanks can be filled in by cinema's already present tendency to fill in meaning via editing.

In this case that meaning was via Kuleshov's effect: editing Davos' foreboding revelation at the break of dawn right next to Tyrion's reacting to guests who at that moment were unknown to the viewer. The effect is that where Davos is seen remembering or guessing at harsh treatments (the past uncovered in a malevolent way), Tyrion is seen remembering the same treatment by Theon. In this way the viewer remembers the treatment and the mood of that treatment before seeing Theon and Yara, who — if they had appeared before via a mundane ship landing — may have made the audience feel comfort because the audience likes the most recent iteration of these characters and would thus have not sympathized with Tyrion or seen the world as an effect of memory. That is, Tyrion remembers his past relationship from far before, whereas the audience remembers Theon and Yara's most recent trip to Voltanis. To put the audience on Tyrion's level, Tyrion must be shown first.
It also saves the show a little money ;)

..
[Rugian]: "No no no no no. It was 100% within Varys' character to tow the line during the meeting with the priestess, then vehemently object to Tyrion in private. This is a guy who's been a political mastermind since childhood; every single scene we've seen of him before now has underlined that he's a goddamn genius at acting in the interests of the realm (and him), as opposed to letting petty grievances get in the way. This is the same guy who spent 20 years on Robert Baratheon's Small Council and dutifully nodded his head when Robert wanted to assassinate Dany, all while he was rooting for a Targareyn restoration the entire time. A politician of that caliber doesn't suddenly start "telling it as it is" and dropping truth bombs in a meeting with a potential ally. It completely destroys his character and is inconsistent with what we've seen for the last half a decade."

Your interpretation does not seem consistent with the narrative. Varys was castrated by someone very very similar in belief to the priestess Kinvara (his castrator being a sorcerer who communed with the lord of light) and it has been established that he exacts his personal vendettas when present company is limited (such as his private murder of that sorcerer in Tyrion's presence). It is well established that he is not above his own personal traumas and that he has a particular animosity towards the religious (remember also his hatred of Melisandre/Stannis), so it cannot reasonably be claimed that this was a "petty grievance" — Kinvara was a direct shade of his former abuser. So while he 'dutifully obeyed' Baratheon (and again, only 'dutiful' as a means of enabling his personal vengeance against the religious, particularly the lord of light peeps), this is also the same person who has been clawing his way into positions of power, who killed his abuser when his intelligence grew strong enough, and who in that Kinvara scene stood at the top of a pyramid near-totally in charge of a city in the absence of Daenerys. This was a pinnacle moment for him. It was 100% personal, he held near-absolute power, and so this was a great opportunity to speak candidly with someone who could do nothing about it — and in the company of, Tyrion, his most trusted friend who has previously witnessed him killing another lord of light member. This scene was the very definition of consistency, being a near-total reflection of his former abuser in a box while Tyrion watched in horror. The change was only that Kinvara managed to say something that saved her from oblivion.

Besides, when else could he become snarky/belligerent with someone that he has cause to hate? He could gain more power, but by then he may as well just kill Kinvara-types outright, which is probably his plan.

..
[Seb]: "1600's - well we've just had several episodes revolving around a pastiche Shakespearean play."

And even more modern a play than Shakespeare's age, since female actresses were allowed to perform in this Game of Thrones version :)

..
[Asgard]: "Also, seems they sail on super fast nuclear-powered vessels rather than with the power of the wind.
It took Columbus et al months to travel across a relatively short ocean route. It took what looks like two weeks for the Ironborn."

It took the Ironborn a couple episodes to traverse the Narrow Sea, which likely stands as George RR Martin's version of the English Channel, the latter being only about 20-150 miles in width depending on launch points. Two weeks seems reasonable, though it's difficult to estimate time between episodes. They were also on the fleet's fastest ships and on the run, so that probably helped.

..
[Asgard]: "It's just like it took Sansa (one or two episodes ago) just minutes to get from Castle Black to some meeting place that I assume is mid-way the wall and the Vale to meet Little-finger."

That place was not mid-way between the wall and the Vale. Littlefinger met Sansa at "Mole's Town," a town within two miles of Castle Black.

..
[McKobb]: "CC, read the books."

I do what I want! I don't even care! ;p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofYdApYn5O8
CrownRoyal
Member
Thu Jun 23 12:23:53
http://www...how-to-win-the-game-of-thrones


Assessing Daenerys Targaryen's chances of victory
hood
Member
Thu Jun 23 12:39:13
So everyone remembers cersei being very curious about that rumor the grand Meister looked into. It was assumed that it was a rumor into the high sparrow.

What if cersei just found the wildfire? Jaime is out of the capital, partly due to cersei requesting it. If she was looking into wildfire, it would make sense she would want Jaime out of there. Less moving parts to worry about.

The only other person cersei gives any shits for is tommen. If she has any way whatsoever of protecting him from a wildfire detonation, she would absolutely sacrifice all of kings landing to get rid of the septum. This would be even more advantageous if the red keep happens to be absent of wildfire. Then she could nuke the city without touching herself or her son (although this seems less likely).

I'd put odds on the last episode of the season being cersei lighting kings landing ablaze. Fuck trying to deal with rumors on the high sparrow, just blow him to bits, along with all of his supporters.
CrownRoyal
Member
Thu Jun 23 12:52:52
I think it is wildfire. Too many mentions of it, capped with Tyrion telling about it to Daenerys in the penultimate episode
Asgard
Member
Thu Jun 23 13:14:44
God damnit CR.
That makes sense.
Renzo Marquez
Member
Thu Jun 23 16:13:22
Who dies this week? I'm guessing Cersei.
Cherub Cow
Member
Thu Jun 23 16:27:39
[Hood]: "So everyone remembers cersei being very curious about that rumor the grand Meister looked into. It was assumed that it was a rumor into the high sparrow. [/] What if cersei just found the wildfire? Jaime is out of the capital, partly due to cersei requesting it. If she was looking into wildfire, it would make sense she would want Jaime out of there. Less moving parts to worry about."

[CR]: "I think it is wildfire. Too many mentions of it, capped with Tyrion telling about it to Daenerys in the penultimate episode."

Neat! That would be cool. Bran's vision showed a dragon shadow over an intact King's Landing and also the wildfire exploding under the city, but it's possible that Daenerys would be setup to *look* like she'd blown up the city [ruining her credibility? just making people afraid of her?]... seems too soon for the iron fleet to arrive, but maybe the dragon would be ahead scouting?

I only wonder about pacing.. like if they would do all of that in the finale or would wait for an explosion next season :/

..
By the way, as far as hints go that George R.R. Martin's outlines still heavily inform the show, in episode 9 in addition to the Apocalytpo reference (running from someone shooting arrows) and the Braveheart reference (a sadistic king firing arrows on his own army so that he can hit the opposing army too), there were at least two major classical references (Martin makes lots and lots of these):
- one being to the Aeneid; Ramsey, like Aeneid's Turnus, refuses a one-on-one duel with the hero Aeneas (Aeneas as Jon Snow) because Turnus still has an army to sacrifice, but once Ramsey's/Turnus' army has been heavily thinned, Turnus suddenly wants to duel again..
- the other being Ovid's Metamorphoses; Ramsey, like Ovid's Actaeon, is punished by Sansa (a stand-in for the virginal Diana who was likewise intruded upon or her "virtue" threatened by Ramsey/Actaeon) by putting Ramsey/Actaeon to death by making him vulnerable to his own hunting dogs; ("And it is said / [Actaeon] did not die until his countless wounds / had satisfied Diana's awful wrath" ... "there were those who found / the goddess's actions cruel and unjust, / while others considered theme appropriate / to the defense of her austere virginity"). The Actaeon/Diana story also talks about how Actaeon would prefer to watch others eaten by his dogs but instead dies by them, no longer a sadistic spectator.
I've thought of listing all the classical references when I re-watch the series, but I'm sure someone's done it already
Cherub Cow
Member
Thu Jun 23 16:31:02
*"while others considered [them] appropriate"
Asgard
Member
Fri Jun 24 12:31:40

""It took the Ironborn a couple episodes to traverse the Narrow Sea, which likely stands as George RR Martin's version of the English Channel, the latter being only about 20-150 miles in width depending on launch points. Two weeks seems reasonable, though it's difficult to estimate time between episodes. They were also on the fleet's fastest ships and on the run, so that probably helped. "

GRRM said westeros is sized the same as southamerica, so no.
CrownRoyal
Member
Fri Jun 24 12:33:44
"Who dies this week? I'm guessing Cersei."

I know she has to go, but I hope it is not her. I would be sad to see another major character leave
Forwyn
Member
Fri Jun 24 13:14:06
Nah, Cersei won't go without burning shit down. Tommen dies this week, I am willing to bet money on it. High Sparrow might go with him.
CrownRoyal
Member
Fri Jun 24 13:14:58
Loras is probably a goner. But I wouldn't call him a major character
Forwyn
Member
Fri Jun 24 13:21:53
One of my greatest disappointments with Season 5 was that Loras went, sword at hand, without ganking a few cultists
CrownRoyal
Member
Fri Jun 24 13:25:16
agreed
Cherub Cow
Member
Fri Jun 24 17:11:59
[Asgard]: "GRRM said westeros is sized the same as southamerica, so no."

Westeros includes the "Lands of Always Winter," so I took it as the conglomeration of England/Scotland/Ireland (the North), Greenland/Iceland (or Norway/Sweden; stretching to/near the pole)(the far North), and Italy/Greece (Dorn and such) all combined with more convenient travel relationships (trade and communication being common) — but this South American size does not at all undermine the size of the narrow sea or its allusion to a real world sea. Two places can be close together even if one of those places happens to be big...

And the "Narrow Sea" should make sense for its namesake — it's narrow, and not even by our standards but the standards of the characters in the show who named it. Its likely presence as a representation of the English Channel follows from invasions being possible but difficult, and difficult not due to the distance but due to naval invasion issues (like unpredictable weather potentially being costly to a poorly scheduled invasion army, whereas single merchant ships having less risk and more options).

..
[Renzo Marquez]: "Who dies this week? I'm guessing Cersei."
[Forwyn]: "Nah, Cersei won't go without burning shit down."

I'm really worried for her! :(
Bernie Sanders / Pope has been ahead of her at almost every step, so life/death for her depends heavily on how surprising/helpful her rumor will be. It seems too much of a happy ending, but I *really* want to see a surprised Pope bludgeoned >:D
obaminated
Member
Fri Jun 24 17:53:29
Cersie won't die because her fate is tied with the mountains, and he has been teased all season as an undefeatable monster. Him dying because cersie blows up kings landing isn't likely. She will blow up the city but she will be safe in the red keep.
Asgard
Member
Sat Jun 25 07:03:54
Cersei won't site until Jamie learns how unfaithful she really is
Forwyn
Member
Sat Jun 25 10:15:23
Jaime is not the Valonqar, though. He might help, but her death has to come at the hands of Tyrion or Sandor.
Forwyn
Member
Sat Jun 25 10:50:37
I guess even Tommen would work. He is a little brother, and the one closest to her now.
The Children
Member
Sat Jun 25 11:26:26
i finally watched this shit in my got marathon week. and oh boy reek and yara 2 mereen was 4 me like it only took them 50 min 2 get there!

also i thought westeros was like da largest land size and dyneris was like banished 2 a shithole land place...but the last seasons they showed the world she was in and they had huge cities and huge armies like unsullied and da masters had huge navy fleet...like wtf?

they just hypin her up or what. i thought her land was a shithole being ravaged by the tribe of drogo (savages) were so poor they had 2 live nomad style. and occasionally here and there a city but mostly merchant, not like real powers like the big houses in westeros.

instead they had huge armies and huge cities with giant pyramids and magic sorcerers.

CrownRoyal
Member
Sun Jun 26 20:01:33
Alright alright, let's go let's go
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun Jun 26 20:02:27
That new HBO promos for Westworld look intriguing. I am looking forward to it
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun Jun 26 20:03:24
Oh god, they are going to go to Dorn again.
Im better then you
2012 UP Football Champ
Sun Jun 26 20:07:49
Keep calm keep calm

Maybe it's just to recap
Im better then you
2012 UP Football Champ
Sun Jun 26 20:07:49
Keep calm keep calm

Maybe it's just to recap
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun Jun 26 20:09:14
Don't ask me to be calm, I can't. I won't
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun Jun 26 20:11:01
Tommen, you fuckin pussy, I do not like this at all. And I really dislike the High Sparrow, kudos to the actor who plays him, masterful performance, making me care like that
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun Jun 26 20:16:36
I hope Mountain guts Lancelot with extreme prejudice
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun Jun 26 20:17:42
Oh shit, the bloodbath is coming
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun Jun 26 20:21:21
No, you will not make it, Lancel, you piece of shit
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun Jun 26 20:22:22
BOOM
Im better then you
2012 UP Football Champ
Sun Jun 26 20:23:53
well played Cersai well fucking played
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun Jun 26 20:24:54
That smile on Cersei face. Even if she gets killed now, what a move
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun Jun 26 20:26:51
Oh dear, Gregor is a looker
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun Jun 26 20:28:01
Maybe Tommen are s valonqar and going to kill his mom?
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun Jun 26 20:28:42
Lol, he offed himself when I pushed submit.
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun Jun 26 20:32:34
Well, who the fuck is next in line?
Im better then you
2012 UP Football Champ
Sun Jun 26 20:37:06
Whoever the fuck Cersai wants?
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun Jun 26 21:08:44
Exactly
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun Jun 26 21:11:46
I know I said more than once that this season had problems. But this was a grade A episode
Hood
Member
Sun Jun 26 21:15:59
Why are we posting in this thread?
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun Jun 26 21:30:16
Oops, I didn't see the other one
Hood
Member
Sun Jun 26 21:30:50
It's ok. Also. /called it on the wildfire.

I feel proud as fuck.
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