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Utopia Talk / Politics / Game of Thrones:Book of The Stranger
Im better then you
2012 UP Football Champ
Sat May 14 14:17:50
59 mins of Violence, Nudity, and Adult stuff

Tyrion strikes a deal. Lord FriendZone and Shady D undertake a difficult task. The Lannister twins try to improve their situation. Peyter finally gets to the Vale realizes he's not as smart as he think he is... Or is he? Emo Theon makes it home


RIP Allison Thorne
Good guy only real flaw was that he was more loyal to the system than the reason that system was created.

Burn in hell Ollie
Jon smashed the head of the guy who ate your parents, helped kill all the assholes that raided your shitty village, and he didn't even hold killing Ygritte against you. So you repay him by killing him... Yeah you got off easy and I'll be fapping to images of your dead body.


So far I love this season I can even tolerate Sam/Gilly for a couple of mins.
Rugian
Member
Sat May 14 15:41:14
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IhuyYjV_FrQ/maxresdefault.jpg

What a beautiful image.

Anyway, I've felt that this season has been pretty lackluster so far. Hopefully the next few episodes tie everything together, but at this point D&D have made too many mistakes to simply shrug off. Dorne was an unmitigated disaster, Stannis' sendoff was extremely rushed and sloppy, and Sansa having sex (not rape, a wife can't be raped by her husband) was completely unnecessary. I'm seriously starting to doubt the ability of these guys to carry the series all the way to the finale, especially with the lack of source material now. Also, I really don't think GoT should be stooping to fart humor, that's just juvenile.
voodooprophet
Member
Sat May 14 21:36:01
They will be deviating more from the books but the executive producers have been told some plot progression and ending by George.
Im better then you
2012 UP Football Champ
Sun May 15 21:00:39
Dont fuck with the mother of dragons
Hood
Member
Sun May 15 21:01:15
Danaerys is badass.
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun May 15 21:01:24
The whole thing seems a little disjointed, and forced. I watch it because I want to know wtf happens next
Rugian
Member
Sun May 15 21:12:34
Pretty solid episode IMO. But beyond that...Ramsay Bolton is like the king at writing awesome threatening letters. Jon and Sansa reading that was entertaining AF
Im better then you
2012 UP Football Champ
Sun May 15 21:41:35
Yes, I like how no one said

"Would Ramsay really do that?"
Forwyn
Member
Sun May 15 23:55:25
Fucking awesome episode.

Fuck yes Sansa. This girl has balls.

Fuck yes Brienne. This girl can throw some shade.

Fuck yes Tyrion. This boy knows how to negotiate.

Fuck yes Jaime. This boy knows how to kill some cultists.

Fuck yes Osha. This girl knows how to assassinate a...oh wait

Fuck yes Jon. This boy knows how to agree with a girl who's right.

Fuck yes Daenerys. This girl knows how to roast some bitch ass horse fuckers.
State Department
Member
Mon May 16 00:02:52
Ser greyscale got to see her naked again. It was all worth it.
The Children
Member
Mon May 16 05:47:38
i cant wait till end of june, where i will watch all episodes in 1 go. prolly stack up on chips and red bull for that, got marathon week aswell.

State Department
Member
Mon May 16 05:53:30
^ eats food worse than Castle Black's.
Renzo Marquez
Member
Mon May 16 06:11:09
Bastard letter didn't refer to Reek?
Renzo Marquez
Member
Mon May 16 06:14:40
Silicon Valley is the better show at this point tbh.
Forwyn
Member
Mon May 16 12:49:08
I forgot one. Fuck yes Knights of the Vale. I might even start liking Littlefinger before this is over.
CrownRoyal
Member
Mon May 16 13:35:50
when Cersei said that Tyrell's army is 2nd largest in westeros, what is the largest army? The one that uncle Kevan commands, King Tommen's army?
MrPresident07
Member
Mon May 16 13:37:38
Am I the only one who can't stand Dany? She's hot for sure...but a leader she is not.
Rugian
Member
Mon May 16 13:39:24
In the conversation between Tywin and Littlefinger back in Season 2, Littlefinger mentioned that the Tyrells had the largest army after the Lannisters and the Starks. The Stark army has since disintegrated, so Tyrells got a promotion by default.
Rugian
Member
Mon May 16 13:41:16
MrPresident07
Member Mon May 16 13:37:38
Am I the only one who can't stand Dany? She's hot for sure...but a leader she is not.


She's spent the last two seasons languishing in Meereen, with no plan or purpose. She's a horrible leader. Also, she looked way too please with watching those Drogo-wannabes burn alive. She's going to go full Aerys 2.0 one day.
Cherub Cow
Member
Mon May 16 14:28:34
[Hood]: "Danaerys is badass."

+1 Deer — She knows how to make the peasants cower :D
Hopefully no one tests to see if her fire immunity is coupled with a "stab with knife" immunity. Similar studies have been conducted.
"Study: Multiple Stab Wounds May Be Harmful To Monkeys"
http://www...-may-be-harmful-to-monke-14150

..
[Rugian]: "Ramsay Bolton is like the king at writing awesome threatening letters. Jon and Sansa reading that was entertaining AF"

+1 Deer — Much lols from that letter! Plus I think Tormund was just sitting there like, "what's the big deal? It's just symbols on a page. He's not even here!"
And no one mentioned Tormund's love of Brienne!! :D He gets it! She's the best.

Also very cool to see Jon and Sansa reunited. And I wonder if Brienne would outright kill Melisandre.. Melisandre pretty much completely unprotected at the moment, but she may be even less safe on the open road. Red Sorceress needs minions badly!
hood
Member
Mon May 16 15:37:11
Tormund is the wildling leader, right? His infatuation with Brienne was definitely amusing.

I also liked when the stark servant wildling asked Ramsay if he ate people after flaying them. Makes me think Tormund was half admiring Ramsay's letter, half taking notes, half recognizing the seriousness of Jon and Sansa's task. He's a wildling, so he gets three halves.
Seb
Member
Mon May 16 15:47:40
Cc:

Loved tormulds subtle flirting completely missing its target.

Sad to see wassername wilding hey knifed. I guess the showrunners are using their new found freedom to further condense the dramatis personae.

Thought Tyrions negotiations a bit lame, waiting for his double cross.
Cherub Cow
Member
Mon May 16 16:02:00
"Sad to see wassername wilding hey knifed."

Especially because she didn't try to do anything once it happened. I get that shock is a thing, but in a fiction you'd expect a seasoned wildling to get a hit in before dying.
Im better then you
2012 UP Football Champ
Mon May 16 22:47:55
Kings landing

Apprently Bernie said ? to Tommen or Tommen said ? to Bernie last episode

Now Bernie is suddenly more focused on Margary and lets her see her brother

Tommen said ? to Cersai

and now Cersai suddenly wants to help Margary and finally refers to her as Queen.

I have no idea who is playing who but ?=a big WTF moment.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Mon May 16 22:56:55
i'm pretty confident Cersei is not wanting to help Margaery...
a) hoping she gets killed in the slaughter
b) hoping Tyrell house name is smeared by being the Bernie killers
c) wanting to wipe out the Bernies so she doesn't face trial & to stop their power
d) a & b
e) a & c
f) b & c
g) a & b & c
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue May 17 01:40:51
"Apprently Bernie said ? to Tommen or Tommen said ? to Bernie last episode"

Like, plot clarification?
They indicated that [Bernie Sanders]/[High Sparrow]/[Pope Francis] ( http://i.imgur.com/dXc40Uq.jpg ) told Tommen and Tommen relayed to Cersei that Margaery would have to do the naked poop walk like Cersei.

And like tw said, pretty sure Cersei just wants to get the Tyrells on board with her own vengeance scheme... Margaery's impending shame was just a way to make that happen.

Given the closed doors on that Francis/Tommen exchange, I'm a bit worried that Pope Francis has already totally predicted Cersei's plans (they revealed that he was a former bourgeoisie merchant, so it wouldn't be a surprise for him to know how things go). In Margaery's eyes Pope Francis is toying with Tommen, her brother, and herself to manipulate confession and grab half of the throne's power, but it looks like peeps need to confess or break a bit in order to do the naked walk, which might mean that *Loras* Tyrell is more likely to do the walk... So it looks like the Pope's plan is...
- Tyrell army enters city ready to stop Margaery's shame (all instructed to grab *her*)
- Francis reveals that *Loras* will do the walk instead
- The army is unable to save Margaery (probably still in her cell), and maybe ends up sitting there perplexed..
- If Cersei is there, she may stupidly decide to have Francis killed anyways, which will get their civil war started with a nice martyrdom, or she'll be powerless (can she even command the troops?), Loras will walk, and Cersei will just have to go on trial

But looks like Margaery could fix all that by killing her brother before he breaks. She could just con Pope Francis into allowing her to walk instead, but she would need word from outside to let her know about the rescue.. otherwise she'd just stay defiant and wait in her cell.

Does that sound right?
MrPresident07
Member
Tue May 17 08:08:06
Cersei found out that grandma killed Joffrey and she told Tommen about it. Now they're going to lure the Tyrell army in to kill the religious nuts, and then the Lannister army (headed by Jamie) will clean up whoever emerges from that. Lannisters stand victorious over both of their enemies and consolidate power again.
MrPresident07
Member
Tue May 17 08:10:53
That then sets up (again) 5 distinct power players/families ready to rumble.

Starks
Lannisters
Greyjoys
Martells
Targs

Then white walkers come to kill them all.
hood
Member
Tue May 17 08:16:50
The scene where Margaery and Loras are in his cell. Margaery said that she was allowed to see Loras in an attempt to break him, but the reality was that he was broken already. She was only granted access to Loras in an attempt to infect her with his despair.

In this sense, I don't think Bernie really cares about Loras. That battle is won, there's little to gain. But being able to break Margaery would be a huge boon. After all, the king doesn't necessarily give shits about Loras, but he definitely cares about his wife. Breaking both the Kings mother AND his wife would cast huge doubt on the king. So I still think the goal is to force Margaery to walk, for she's the ultimate prize. She's the stallion that needs to be broken.

Revolution is great, but I think Bernie is smart enough to not try and usurp complete power. It is much better to be the littlefinger behind the throne, whispering in a figureheads ear, than it is to be the one with the target. Bernie found a king he can influence. Revolution would risk putting someone less susceptible to that influence in power. Cause he sure as hell isn't going to successfully claim the iron throne for himself (or at least his order).
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue May 17 14:02:52
"So I still think the goal is to force Margaery to walk, for she's the ultimate prize."

Oh true. She may be too cool for school though! :D .. she seems like one of the smartest characters on the show, so Bernie may be disappointed or just deceived. Like he may *prefer* Margaery, but can he break her or else would she pretend to be broken? I guess that's her only way out, though... even Cersei's plan doesn't seem to have any element of storming the prison for anyone still in a cell.. though I guess if Loras walks they could still attack.

..
"Revolution would risk putting someone less susceptible to that influence in power."

Trues. But if martyrdom goes off the table for him then he'd need a back-up plan to survive Cersei's plan. Maybe he just wouldn't see her plan coming? He seems too clever to not have a plan... so if Margaery is set up to walk (in which case the Sparrows get attacked before they can disrobe her), how does Pope Francis live?
..or maybe he doesn't. blerg
Rugian
Member
Tue May 17 16:26:33
Given the vehement levels of hatred toward the High Sparrow by the viewing audience (which, wtf? It's like the mere fact that he's religious is a 10x intensifier of the hatred toward him. He's objectively not nearly as evil as half of the main characters in the story to date, everyone needs to chill the fuck out about him), I'm pretty sure he's going to be the victim of a "satisfying" death moment sooner rather than later. Unlike other show villains (Joffrey, Ramsey, etc.), I don't this guy has the stamina to survive for multiple seasons. There's no way he can permanently share power with the crown without the whole situation in King's Landing exploding eventually. And I can't see him ever coming out as the absolute master of the capital. So RIP Bernie, hopefully the revolution will live on without you.

(or more likely, it's going to end with everyone who felt the Bern swinging from a noose. Oh well)
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue May 17 20:57:59
i don't hate Bernie!

i think he's gonna be all
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."

http://vine.co/v/i23Og99EAhL
Forwyn
Member
Wed May 18 09:14:02
"Given the vehement levels of hatred toward the High Sparrow by the viewing audience"

He didn't just target the Lannisters, which would be see as satisfying revenge, he also swept up the Tyrells, who while political, are overall some pretty decent people. He rails for this huge overhaul of a disenfranchising political system, but tortures a guy for his private bedroom activities. He rails against the ostentatious ruling class, but locks up the one gal who has spent a significant amount of time walking through the streets barefoot to take care of the poor. Even look at who these two are represented by - Olenna, a vastly rich and powerful figure. She had Joff killed for...well, not some Littlefinger conspiracy, but just to protect her granddaughter from him.

If he wanted consistency, he would have locked up the small council. Instead he sweeps up the easy targets with nothing more than sexual misconduct. But he doesn't care about consistency, because we have no indication anything at all happened to Olyvar.
CrownRoyal
Member
Wed May 18 09:19:31
One look at Lancel and the rest of fanatical, brainwashed HS followers is enough to feel the antipathy toward him and the movement, even without discussing their goals and motivation. Pretty hard not to dislike morality enforcers anyway.
Rugian
Member
Wed May 18 09:59:57
Forwyn
Member Wed May 18 09:14:02
He didn't just target the Lannisters, which would be see as satisfying revenge, he also swept up the Tyrells, who while political, are overall some pretty decent people.


The Tyrells may be relatively benevolent compared to the Lannisters, but they still played a major role in propelling the War of the Five Kings forward. A war which saw countless thousands of ordinary people killed and raped by marauding soldiers, while many more were forced to watch as their homes and fields burned down, leaving them destitute. This is a war that left the ordinary people in a state of extreme desolation and misery, while the Tyrells came out of the war looking better than ever. Anger at the Tyrells specifically might be a slight misdirection, but the aristocracy in general is currently a vehement object of hatred by the common folk, and rightfully so.

"He rails for this huge overhaul of a disenfranchising political system, but tortures a guy for his private bedroom activities."

He's merely enforcing laws that were already on the books. Like it or not, but homosexuality tended not to be looked upon kindly in the pre-modern civilized world. It's the same reason why we don't think of Brienne as a monster for repeatedly cutting down enemies, even though such acts would constitute acts of murder in the 21st century.

"He rails against the ostentatious ruling class, but locks up the one gal who has spent a significant amount of time walking through the streets barefoot to take care of the poor."

That charity was entirely self-serving, and everyone with a brain knows it. Tony Soprano used to hand out turkeys to the colored church on Thanksgiving too, that doesn't absolve him of being a piece of shit.

"Even look at who these two are represented by - Olenna, a vastly rich and powerful figure. She had Joff killed for...well, not some Littlefinger conspiracy, but just to protect her granddaughter from him."

Entirely irrelevant. Regicide is a very cut and dry crime, even if Joffrey was the worst human being alive. Even IRL, whenever a king who was universally hated was cut down, the assassins were usually killed afterward.

"But he doesn't care about consistency, because we have no indication anything at all happened to Olyvar."

I'm guessing Olyvar got immunity in exchange for his testimony. Why does that make the High Sparrow a shit person? The Faith Militant is going after the targets that were traditionally immune from prosecution - the ruling class. Cersei literally killed her king, put two illegitimate bastards on the throne under false pretenses, overthrew the legitimate Lord Protector, played a huge role in sending the realm down the path toward war, and committed multiple acts of incest (a crime punishable by death according to the realm's laws). Had it not been for the Faith Militant, she could have presumably escaped justice forever. The High Sparrow doesn't need to be around for squires and stable boys to be punished for their crimes, but the aristocracy have been majorly asking for a day of reckoning for some time. Now it's finally here, and they entirely deserve it.
Cherub Cow
Member
Wed May 18 15:50:24
"Now it's finally here, and they entirely deserve it."

As far as the dysfunctional aristocracy/monarchy.. Olenna Tyrell definitely revealed how out of touch or problematic their actions can be: "Many will die no matter what we do. Better them than us"... not exactly good for the people.. but for me the reason that Pope Francis' method has been a problem would be that he has used poor education to create opportunistic myths, which would be no better a way of seizing power than Littlefinger's backhanded manipulations. The peoples' revolution needs to happen, but to make it happen he has lied to his Sparrows about the source of their powers and discontents. It's that same old proselytizing method: appeal to the peoples' emotions (like the mother thing with Tommen) and then flip the switch and say that those emotions come from some particular god or eternal state that commands asceticism and self debasement. Dethroning the Tyrells and Lannisters with that kind of religious practice would just be replacing one tyranny with a worse one, where those best at debasing themselves would have the most power. Margaery would at least interact with the people and improve them with education, which could prevent the peoples' susceptibility to Sparrow logic. Not sure about Jon Snow or Daenerys' education reforms, so I wouldn't vote for them in peacetime. Furthermore, I consider that Carthage must be destroyed.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed May 18 15:53:37
has Bernie actually revealed himself to be evil w/ sinister motives? (vs not merely genuinely believing his message)

i don't recall him doing so but i wouldn't trust my memory on it

Cherub Cow
Member
Wed May 18 15:56:17
I don't think he's outright mentioned anything, it's only that he seems to be making moves for power. Probably believes it all and just considers it a convenient outcome that his work would happen to give him power over half of the kingdom ;)
Im better then you
2012 UP Football Champ
Wed May 18 15:59:22
Its difficult to determine Bernie's real motive all of his scenes are him manipulating people in power. Just a few sentences with him alone with Nurse Shame would be telling. He on several occasions has admitted his supporters may have been too harsh but has done nothing to scale back
Forwyn
Member
Wed May 18 20:02:27
"but they still played a major role in propelling the War of the Five Kings forward. A war which saw countless thousands of ordinary people killed and raped by marauding soldiers, while many more were forced to watch as their homes and fields burned down, leaving them destitute."

Which can pretty squarely placed on the Lannisters, Ironborn, and perhaps Starks. The Tyrell fighting was almost exclusively relegated to King's Landing - so you can only blame this on the Tyrells by proxy, for their secondhand support of the Lannisters.

"He's merely enforcing laws that were already on the books."

So he's the DEA, enforcing victimless crime laws that no one else cares to enforce. That makes him a busybody shill, and if his motives lie in places beyond the law and they are simply his tools, then it makes him more sinister than his benevolent persona belies.

"we don't think of Brienne as a monster for repeatedly cutting down enemies,"

Who are always armed, and trying to kill her. The Mannis was perhaps the only person she's killed who didn't pose an immediate threat to her. Even in the 21st century, this is justifiable self-defense - the latter might simply be construed as vigilantism, but even then she could argue she was acting as legitimate law enforcement for her former king.

"That charity was entirely self-serving, and everyone with a brain knows it."

As is most charity. I don't think the motives matter much when they're walking with shoes on their feet, or their survival is completely owed to the "million bushels of wheat, half a million bushels each of barley, oats, and rye, twenty thousand head of cattle, fifty thousand sheep" that they're eating. The fact that they keep the smallfolk in mind at all already puts them several tiers above Cersei and her ilk.

"Regicide is a very cut and dry crime, even if Joffrey was the worst human being alive."

It was merely a reminder of their very relatable motives - though if we were discussing it as a motive for punishment from the Sparrow - he needs to decide if Joffrey is a King worth punishing for, or an illegitimate bastard. :)

"I'm guessing Olyvar got immunity in exchange for his testimony."

So, exact same "crime", but one is punished for being born a little bit richer. Let's not pretend Olyvar probably wasn't born into the top 10%, or perhaps even the 1%. Loras is simply the 1% of the 1%.

"Cersei literally killed her king,"

Arguable. A pig killed her king. She - well, actually Lancel - simply gave him a stronger drink than he was used to.

"overthrew the legitimate Lord Protector,"

I'm all for putting her head on a spike for this, but are the gold cloaks, Littlefinger, all Kingsguard present, etc etc, going to join her, or do we give them a pass because they didn't shit gold, they merely usurped the throne for it?



**********************
possible spoilers, mostly tinfoil
**********************




This is all acceptable to me if the Sparrow is actually Howland Reed. He thus has a personal motive to depose both Lannisters and Tyrells, while otherwise preserving the power structure for an...ahem...appropriate heir.

Otherwise, it just seems a little self-serving and mostly misdirected. In any case, I'm not a fan of armed cults; I certainly wouldn't want to give Scientologists official power.
Cherub Cow
Member
Fri May 20 14:07:24
Speaking of tinfoil... so Bran is probably the three-eyed raven? If time travel has started, seems like his future self could have implanted in the tree and has gone back to "present" time to affect Bran's fate. Or not. Still, I'm wondering how much Bran will be able to affect past events.. could get dangerous unless they decide that the things he "changed" were already in effect for the current present.
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