Utopia Talk / Politics / (OT) Lifting advice pls

pillz Member	Sun Feb 15 21:59:33 So I tried Stronglifts this past summer, but had to stop because of a chronic subluxation in my right shoulder (this only really affected overhead press, but very dangerously so). I've since seen a physio therapist and he said to avoid heavy weights and focus on strengthening the muscles in my shoulder/back. To that end he gave me a program that should help. However, there isn't really any reason I shouldn't be doing other exercises at the same time, so long as i keep the weight down (this isn't a problem, i dont lift much to begin with). The gym is far enough away that theres no point in me going if I'll just spend 15 minutes on my shoulder and leave, especially if this whole shoulder-fixing thing takes weeks like he said it would. He said to avoid heavy weights, and recommended I change my form for certain things, such as bench press and pushups, to avoid putting undue strain on my shoulder. This means I can still do all of stronglifts, except for the overhead press. Absolutely no overhead press, or anything else that will force my shoulder too far back or too far up. No idea how long I have to avoid it for, he said to give it a shot once I feel comfortable trying but that wont be for weeks. What can I replace overhead press with? Is there another equally straightforward routine I can try that doesn't include it?
Cloud Strife Member	Sun Feb 15 22:03:18 You want a shoulder exercise that doesn't involve moving the shoulder? I'm confused. It's not a stabilizer. It can't be worked without moving the upper arm.
yankeessuck123 Member	Sun Feb 15 22:06:44 Yeah, I'm pretty sure there is no real replacement. Just gonna have to leave it out.
Wrath of Orion Member	Sun Feb 15 22:08:45 Shrugs, dumbbell lifts (that don't go over your shoulder height), etc. But as was already mentioned, you can't really replace an overhead lift with anything. If you can't do it, you can't do it. Live with it and move on.
Cloud Strife Member	Sun Feb 15 22:09:18 like you can just extend a dumbbell or something with your arm, and that will definitely wear your shoulder out, but it's not particularly productive.
pillz Member	Sun Feb 15 22:11:01 This is unfortunate. My cursory Google search told me as much. I guess I'll just work on the stabilizer for now and see if it's feeling up to OHP in a couple more weeks.
TJ Member	Sun Feb 15 22:39:04 Seriously, if you have a therapist that is providing or gave you instruction it would be wise to follow the advice. Continued use can easily cause more damage and then you could be facing surgery on the shoulder. You don't want to take a chance that you injure it to the point that your shoulder easily slips its socket in the future or you won't ever be able to do such an exercise.
Sam Adams Member	Sun Feb 15 22:40:08 Lifting is for gays and jersey shores. Go do some cardio like a proper heterosexual.
Cloud Strife Member	Sun Feb 15 22:42:25 but cardio is for women hmm... we are at an empasse. Perhaps the exercises of the heterosexual male are drinking, lechery, and driving fast.
Cloud Strife Member	Sun Feb 15 22:44:33 not spelling, that's for sure
pillz Member	Sun Feb 15 23:07:40 "Seriously, if you have a therapist that is providing or gave you instruction it would be wise to follow the advice. " I am following it. Follow his routine for my shoulder, avoid heavy weights in general until it is strengthened, and don't OHP or add weight until I'm confident it is better. "Continued use can easily cause more damage and then you could be facing surgery on the shoulder." No. Surgery is only required if there is damage to the joint/socket/bone. I discussed this with him. "You don't want to take a chance that you injure it to the point that your shoulder easily slips its socket in the future or you won't ever be able to do such an exercise. " My shoulder 'slips' constantly and without reason. It has 'slipped' hundreds, if not thousands of times. It fully dislocates and hangs once every few months, but only because I make it a habit of: - Not using that arm to reach shelves - Not using it to point or reach backwards - Not using it to pull or push anything heavy It used to dislocate fully on an almost weekly basis. Supposedly the answer to all my problems is to significantly strengthen the stabilizer. This thread is merely me investigating the possibility of working out my shoulder without risking it coming out or slipping while I am holding a bar of weights directly above my head. I can not, and so I'll wait. "Lifting is for gays and jersey shores. Go do some cardio like a proper heterosexual. " Eh, I am not much of a runner but I can walk for literally ever. I also intend to get into bouldering this summer, once I've got the time. It actually isn't hard on my shoulder at all so I could do it now, but ain't nobody got time for that.
Hood Member	Sun Feb 15 23:18:20 "Eh, I am not much of a runner" Swim or bike. Both are reasonable activities.
pillz Member	Sun Feb 15 23:22:07 I bike 3-4 days a week in the summer... our summer just happens to be 3, maybe 4 months.
TJ Member	Sun Feb 15 23:35:52 I didn't realize you already had that much of a shoulder instability. Good luck with building strength to stabilize the condition.
patom Member	Mon Feb 16 09:46:01 At my age I usually hire someone to lift something.
Renzo Marquez Member	Mon Feb 16 16:17:46 Row.
McKobb Member	Mon Feb 16 16:46:59 This is how you lift: http://youtu.be/LoUSO_Mj1TQ?t=22s
yankeessuck123 Member	Mon Feb 16 21:23:25 I'm pretty sure Sam has it backwards. Lifting is stereotypically masculine. Running is for soccer players, and as we all know soccer is a sport for homos and women.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Feb 16 21:45:52 A someone who has worked out the better part my life AND injured my shoulder, my advice is to NOT ask for advice here with regards to such a serious condition. I had to go through a few doctors and physio therapists before I got good advice. That was key since most physio therapists are used to patients who are couch potatoes and not sport related injuries. So if you have confidence in your physio therapists, then be patient and run the course, but realize this, your shoulder will probably never be 100% it is something you will have to live with.
pillz Member	Mon Feb 16 22:00:07 lol I'd settle for 50%. I've had this this my senior year of high school, so it's been a pretty long time. Last time I tried OHP it had to be just the bar and my right shoulder struggled to get into final position. As in, my left will straight above my head but my right has to be 'pushed' right at the finish mark to equal out. Could only do about 6 or 7 reps before it started to get noticeably lower (as in, my shoulder was slipping out) and I thought I'd drop the bar. I haven't done anything else that strains it that much, but movements that require my shoulder to go backwards or up/backwards I've been told to stop or adjust. Bench, for example, I can't bring the bar to my chest for heavy weights. Can't go to low on pushups, etc. The routine for my stabilizer has helped a bit though, after just a couple of weeks. Definitely improved but I can still feel it get tired/uncomfortable a lot faster than my left. Pullups, for example, are really difficult. After a handful the right shoulder just has no strength left in it, and I have to finish by pulling myself up with my left arm or letting go. It just won't/can't support my weight (and I'm not at all overweight). Any beginner routines that don't require OHP you would recommend, nim?
TJ Member	Mon Feb 16 22:21:25 You might want to check out isometrics. There are exercises that can strengthen the shoulder without movement of the joint. I take it your therapist didn't mention the particular exercise or you just didn't mention. The type of exercise isn't uncommon in sport injury recovery.
pillz Member	Mon Feb 16 22:40:49 I feel like I've been misinterpreted. Strengthening the shoulder with regards to making it not dislocate any more is covered by the various exercises the therapist recommended to me. Those are mostly isometric in nature, so good call there TJ. I'm looking for something to replace OHP which I've read/been told is a vital pillar of a good lifting routine, because for the time being (possibly ever, time will tell) I can not safely do it. But since the consensus in the thread seems to be that OHP is irreplaceable, I now need a full routine which does not utilize it. Or, I guess I could just omit it from stronglifts but that seems counter intuitive and I've been told it is a bad idea.
TJ Member	Mon Feb 16 22:58:58 Pillz, from what you've described in this thread surgery seems to be your only hope with the shoulder at getting back to any type of repetitive routine using upper movement, especially with weight. I don't say that lightly. I take it you've ruled out considering for whatever reason. But it is what it is and the isometrics are suited for your condition. You would be looking at a full year of recovery with surgery according to John Hopkins. Below is the link. http://www.hopkinsortho.org/shoulder_instability.html
Arab Member	Mon Feb 16 23:13:33 Bent Over Rows Wide Arm Pushups
pillz Member	Mon Feb 16 23:26:55 TJ - Two doctors and the therapist said surgery wasn't required. The isometrics are supposedly sufficient for strengthening the stabilizer, at least enough that I can use it normally without fear of subluxation. At that point it should be acceptable to train it more with weights. The point of this thread was to find a exercise to replace OHP with or a routine that doesn't require it. Arab: I assume bent over rows are barbell rows? In which case yes I can do those and theyre already part of Stronglifts. Also wide arm pushups are part of my therapists routine, though I'm supposed to use a half-yoga ball rather than the floor to avoid dipping to low.
pillz Member	Mon Feb 16 23:27:24 Although if the wide arm pushups substitute OHP, that works great for me as I'm already doing them.
TJ Member	Mon Feb 16 23:35:54 Sure, I understood, normal use should be no problem. Hope it all works out to your advantage. I have no doubt your doctors know better than I.
OsamaIsDaWorstPresid Member	Mon Feb 16 23:36:05 so dis is pillz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5iSMOhu1Mk
pillz Member	Mon Feb 16 23:47:35 Video made my night, thanks Rugian. A friend of mine does crossfit and I know he has done a lot of the things demonstrated in that video. Truly retarded stuff. I mean, I can understand the desire for a high intensity workout or whatever, but lol @ 205 squats using your max weight. Like the comments said, physio therapists need to make money off someone.
cloud strife Member	Tue Feb 17 20:09:40 As long as there is crossfit, there will always be silly levels of easily preventable injuries.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Feb 17 22:00:07 The OHP, have you tried them with dumbells? Different inclinations and rotation in your wrists?
pillz Member	Tue Feb 17 23:39:16 Uh While OHP might be less dangerous in this situation with dumbells, I would personally feel much less comfortable/safe trying it. I might, though, some day. I could certainly use lighter weights that way at least.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Feb 18 00:53:24 I would try doing that with lower weights. Preferably with kettlebells, from racked position. I had the same issue, not as dangerous. I generally detest and stay away from things that are not free weights, because gym "equipment" force you into very stale movement where all the stabilizing muscles are put out of effect. The best advice I can give is this, forgett any form of OHP for a couple of months. My shoulder issue was less problematic and that is what I did. Slowly I started doing them with kettlebells, but still even after the injury is "gone", I can not over do that type of movement. Dumbells and kettlebells together with a bench you can change the inclination is best, because you can play with the inclination and offload on your pecs, you can move your wrist and thus rotate the shoulder join into more comfortable/stronger position, most important however it forces you to balance/stabilize. Of course this means you will lift less weight, since I am very much for functionality this aspect so not an issue for me. Neither should it for you with a shoulder like this.
OsamaIsDaWorstPresid Member	Wed Feb 18 01:09:12 az a gay swe wit no intarest in sex of corse u play wit weights insted of bonein ure wife (who will no longer sex u bcos shes now ure wife and wont put out neway)
The Children Member	Wed Feb 18 01:26:30 haha u think u can powerlift with a broken shulder? what r u, nuts? u wanna lose it all, biatch. be a crippled. keep liftin then and find out how much pain can still come ur way. also, drop the gym completely fool. TC only trains with pure bodyweight nowadays. gym is 4 ego trippers and losers. if ur shulders be fcked, it be fcked. this means no more upper body exercizes or ur gonna fck up urself even more. generally speakin if ur shulder is fcked, u will need 2 compensate with other upper musscle groups 2 perform similar exercizes or other upper body exercizes. ur upper back, ur arms, lower back etc. this forces those muscles in unnatural positions and it just a matter of time before u fck up. u dunt want 2 fck up ur back lol. that is a whole different level of hurt that ur pissy betamale painlevel ur experiencin right now. just drop ur powerliftin and gym membership. run laps 2 stay in shape. train bodyweight and legs only. forget benchpresses and upper movements. it be 4 ur own good.
Billah Member	Wed Feb 18 01:45:28 Lunges with weights.
Pillz Member	Wed Feb 18 12:55:04 http://bre...-seated-standing-dumbbell-and- Seems to suggest that seated dumbell press is easier on the back shoulder than any other variant. I'll try this in 4 weeks time, perhaps with kettle bells.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Feb 18 21:29:17 I didn't mention standing up because I do not want to complicate things further. Standing up requires proper posture for your back, just more variables to think about.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Feb 18 21:53:02 Closing, as painful as it seems you might want to rethink the purpose of your work out. My own issue is that I have very flexible joints (genetics) without proper care and thought I would put my shoulder into bad vunerable positions while working out. While I thought I had a holistic approach I realized there were huge gaps and inconsistensies in the way I worked out. Painful realizations. About 3 years ago I weighed 93 kg, strong like bull with the stamina of a turd. Interested in BJJ with a fuck up shoulder I reasoned that my natural weight class would be welterweight so I needed to be max 77kg. I weigh iin at 76kg these days and I am in the best overall shape in my life. The difference in looks, feel, mindset is day and night and it all started with an injury which stopped me from doing bench presses and OHP.
pillz Member	Wed Feb 18 22:15:49 The purpose of my workout is simply to get me into shape physically and give me some sort of daily or by-daily physical activity with catharsis. I'm 5'11" and weigh in at 145lbs. Basically just skinny and lanky. Over the summer other factors caused me to lose ~15 to 20lbs. I want to lift specifically for the strength building aspects. But, I fully realize that even after weeks/months of following my physio routine I may not be able to ever lift properly/safely or obtain a level of strength and fitness I'm satisfied with. Because, as has been pointed out, my shoulder is pretty terrible. I'm open to other activities though. Like I mentioned, I usually bike in the summers. I walk a lot in general (just these past two weeks I've walked 6 & 4km on my way home from work in -30 weather because lol no buses). I've considered yoga, which I actually intend to start when I've wrapped up my midterms (Friday). My flexibility is generally rather poor and I figure it'll be good to correct that and have an activity I can do from the comfort of my home. Swimming is difficult because, as with biking, our summers are pretty short. Don't particularly want to dole out for a membership to a pool (gym is $10, pool is $50) for the winter, either. Similarly, something like bouldering (which you've done IIRC) is also $50 a month. Not to mention that while I didn't notice bouldering bothering my shoulder, I imagine the same issues I ran up against with pullups (right bicep and left arm & my back compensating for shitty shoulder) will inevitably crop up while bouldering. Also I've no intention of doing something like strictly running/biking anyways, since I'm already skinny and burn too many calories as is just walking everywhere. My injury actually originated with martial arts. We had a lesson in self-defence in senior year where one of the activities included flipping your partner over your back. My partner just happened to only take my arm. Since then I've had it dislocate playing basket ball, tennis, doing the backstroke, and righting to right myself from a submerged kayak. So sports have been something I've avoided for a long time. Though I imagine that some strengthening, as a result of the physio routine, should allow me to at least get back into basket ball and tennis. I don't imagine I'll ever backstroke again though.
Arab Member	Wed Feb 18 23:18:01 If you have upper body issues, focus on core exercises, such as: - Squats - Deadlifts - Lunges - Bent Over Rows - Planking - Pushups These are really all you need to build up strength and size.
Arab Member	Wed Feb 18 23:20:13 Also, consider buying steroids or RPT. These will aid in injury recovery greatly.
Arab Member	Wed Feb 18 23:24:11 Also - Yoga, and all stretching exercises, are bad for your muscles, as they reduce strength. Never, ever, stretch before lifting weights or doing any type of physical activity. Instead, do warmups, like walking around fast, jumping jacks, et.c.
Arab Member	Wed Feb 18 23:24:57 *replace RPT with PRP...
pillz Member	Wed Feb 18 23:41:15 "Yoga, and all stretching exercises, are bad for your muscles, as they reduce strength. " Still need to improve my flexibility. No other way to do that but to stretch. At least yoga is generally better stretching than retarded static stretches most people do. "Never, ever, stretch before lifting weights or doing any type of physical activity. Instead, do warmups, like walking around fast, jumping jacks, et.c. " I was under the impression that simply doing light warmup reps was sufficient. "If you have upper body issues, focus on core exercises, such as: - Squats - Deadlifts - Lunges - Bent Over Rows - Planking - Pushups These are really all you need to build up strength and size. " Aye I was doing all that but lunges in the summer. Going to avoid pull-ups and do lunges when I start again.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Feb 19 21:53:44 Yoga sounds great as part of a holistic approach, raw strength shouldn't be the only bechmark of fitness, athleticism requires much more. One of my favorite stabilizing excercises is push ups on one of those big soft excercise balls. This one forces alot of work out of your core muscles. Tier 1 you have the ball against a wall, tier 2 the ball is not against the wall, tier 3 you have your feet up on a bench at the height of the ball. https://andreaoutloud.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/ball.jpg
Billah Member	Sat Feb 21 00:28:42 "I'm 5'11" and weigh in at 145lbs. Basically just skinny and lanky." *Basically a scrawny little racist weakling.
Billah Member	Sat Feb 21 00:37:50 "Similarly, something like bouldering (which you've done IIRC) is also $50 a month." Wow. I just go to the mountains and find a big boulder and climb it. Indoor rock climbing is so weak and unrealistic in comparison to the real thing. "righting to right myself from a submerged kayak." I would have just loved to stand there and laugh at you during this little debacle. "Going to avoid pull-ups and do lunges when I start again." Who first suggested lunges in this thread? Me. You can thank me you little shit. You seem weak. Make sure to always stretch and warm up before you work out or you might dislocate your weak little self. A good thing to do is stretches, then haul ass on a stationary bike for a few miles or run a mile on the treadmill. Then do the weights. Machines are more forgiving of your weak body so I recommend them, and also, don't neglect leg day, even though it is like the worst thing to do to your body ever. Also in the gym, form is everything and try to control all of your movements with weights slowly, keeping them under steady control. Don't do some exercises like squats with a bar if no one has shown you how to do it with the correct form.
pillz Member	Sat Feb 21 00:55:20 "*Basically a scrawny little racist weakling. " Must make you pretty buttmad. "Wow. I just go to the mountains and find a big boulder and climb it. Indoor rock climbing is so weak and unrealistic in comparison to the real thing. " Rock climbing outdoors and without the proper equipment seems like an excellent way to injury yourself. "I would have just loved to stand there and laugh at you during this little debacle. " You probably would have been embarrassed at how somebody so weak was able to right himself with one arm and shrug it off. "Who first suggested lunges in this thread? Me." Given the fact that you're a serial bullshitter with no qualifications to speak of in any area, there is no reason to entertain your advice. "You seem weak." Subjective, but not wrong. Difficult to build and keep strength with a bump shoulder, as I have leart and am trying to correct. Thank god that can be fixed, but your half-hurd heritage and subhuman intellect can not. "Make sure to always stretch and warm up before you work out or you might dislocate your weak little self. " Stretching before such activities as lifting weights is unhealthy. As has been discussed. Extra unhealthy to stretch an already lose muscle group before putting weight onto it. "A good thing to do is stretches, then haul ass on a stationary bike for a few miles or run a mile on the treadmill. " Every piece of literature and advice says otherwise. Especially on leg day. "Machines are more forgiving of your weak body so I recommend them, " They are not conducive to building proper form or properly targeting multiple muscle groups simultaneously/building real strength. Thus it'd be counter intuitive. "don't neglect leg day, even though it is like the worst thing to do to your body ever. don't neglect leg day, even though it is like the worst thing to do to your body ever. " I'm taken aback, this is not wrong or in contention. "Don't do some exercises like squats with a bar if no one has shown you how to do it with the correct form. " I've already done everything suggested in this thread but seated dumbbell press and lunges. That said, I agree it's better to be taught correct form in person. However, proper care and attention to form with no weights/the bar make it easy to pick up proper form relatively quickly and without unnecessary injury.
Billah Member	Sat Feb 21 04:03:50 "Must make you pretty buttmad." -Compared to you, I am quite strapping. "Rock climbing outdoors and without the proper equipment seems like an excellent way to injury yourself." -You. Are. A. Pussy. "You probably would have been embarrassed at how somebody so weak was able to right himself with one arm and shrug it off. " -And the weakling admits...that he is a weakling. *applause* "Given the fact that you're a serial bullshitter with no qualifications to speak of in any area, there is no reason to entertain your advice." -This would make sense except you seriously said that you will start doing lunges, and I was the one to bring that particular exercise up with my superior knowhow and knowledge. "Subjective, but not wrong." -Again, the weakling admits...that he is weak. "Stretching before such activities as lifting weights is unhealthy. As has been discussed. Extra unhealthy to stretch an already lose muscle group before putting weight onto it." -Alright bro, your body, your choice. etc.,
NeverWoods Member	Sun Feb 22 06:17:23 Don't know if this has been said. As for overhead presses they can be replaced by few exercises that puts some less stress on the shoulders and also less irritations. Try doing overhead presses on a smith machine, put a a bench in a 90¤ angle, have the bar 2 inches in front and when doing it, don't let the bar go below the mouth, press when it's just below the nose.. to low and shoulder joints will take too much pressure. Some other things to watch out for that can seriously harm your shoulders if not done in a safe manner is up right rows. I have seen people get injured due to lifting way to much and way to far up.. When doing them don't go past your chest, there is no reason to go past your chest other than put a lot of pressure on your joints. Also this might suck ass but start doing half rep's on the bench press. Also you can watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SnVJDt7jts
The Children Member	Sun Feb 22 07:40:01 fagmatzo actin like he some sort of stud = gold
NeverWoods Member	Sun Feb 22 18:58:35 Just to add one more thing that way many overlook is mobility exercises and stretching. Take 10 min's and do them before you start your work out. This helps tremendously your joint to stay lubricated and flexible during your workout.
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Mon Feb 23 08:45:42 Man up and your shoulder will no longer be a problem
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Mon Feb 23 08:46:18 'fagmatzo actin like he some sort of stud = gold ' At least he isn't net worthless TC.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Feb 23 11:08:27 >>Just to add one more thing that way many overlook is mobility exercises and stretching.<< This is not good advice for his condition. He needs his shoulder to be stiffer and more stable, not more mobile.
TJ Member	Mon Feb 23 11:28:29 The shoulder will gain little stability without surgery. There will be continual weakness that places him in danger of the particular exercises whether genetically inherited or from a stressed injury. It would be wise to proceed with extreme caution, or surgery will likely be inevitable in the future, and a high risk of more than simply for the shoulder. BTH, it isn't my shoulder and any decision is between Pillz and the doctors. I personally believe that what he should be doing is what should be done and that is following instruction from the medical field. After all that is why their help is sought originally. If there are exercises that improve his condition I'm sure it has been a part of their discussion. Patience truly is a virtue.
Cloud Strife Member	Mon Feb 23 13:01:59 I got it. cut into your armpit, take a caulk gun and just shoot that shit all up in there. Works when I need to update the taxidermy on my mom, YMMV. Let me know if it works.
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