Utopia Talk / Politics / "Catholic Warrior"

swordtail Anarchist Prime	Wed Dec 24 10:02:25 Woman arrested after damaging Satanic display at Florida Capitol Published December 24, 2014 ·FoxNews.com A woman was arrested Tuesday after she began to tear down a display by the Satanic Temple in the lobby of the Florida Capitol. The Tallahassee Democrat reported that 54-year-old Susan Hemeryck told two Florida Department of Law Enforcement Capitol Police officers that she "was sorry and had to take down the Satanic display", adding that it was "not right." The paper reported that when Hemeryck tried to remove the display, an officer stopped her and told her to put it back, saying that she was violating the law. Hemeryck responded that she "could not take it anymore" and began trying to tear down the display before she was arrested. The display, which shows an angel falling into flames with the message "Happy Holidays from the Satanic Temple", had been erected Monday as a satire by an atheist group to counter a nativity scene which had already been taken down. "It's just wrong, when you remove baby Jesus two days before Christmas and put Satan in his place — that just can't happen. I couldn't allow it to happen," Hemeryck, who said she was wearing a shirt that said "Catholic Warrior" when she arrived at the Capitol, told the Associated Press "I was there at the right time and the right moment and I needed to take a stand against Satan." Atheist groups last year began taking advantage of the Capitol's free speech zone after a Christian group installed a manger scene showing the birth of Jesus. The display last year included a Festivus pole in tribute to a holiday created on "Seinfeld" that satirizes the commercialism of Christmas and a display by the Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster, which mocks beliefs that a god created the universe and argues instead that the universe was created by a plate of pasta and meatballs. The Satanic Temple display was rejected as "grossly offensive" last year, but this year — following threats of legal action from the Americans United for Separation of Church and State — the state Department of Management Services gave its approval. "The angel's dead," said John Porgal, regional director of American Atheists, when he arrived at the Capitol to see the angel figurine lying alone on a table. "We've been tolerant of their display. We didn't like it, but we tolerated it. You see what they did to our display." Porgal said he plans to leave the display in its damaged state "as a sign of what the religious right's idea of tolerance is." Pam Olsen, who organized the manger display, said she doesn't approve of the attack. "I'm actually very sad that she felt motivated to do that," Olsen said. "I do not like the display. I think it's rude and it's sad that he put it up to protest the nativity that means so much to millions of people, however I don't think anyone should ever vandalize anything. Free speech is free speech whether we like it or not." Hemeryck, who faces a charge of criminal mischief, said she has no criminal record and hasn't even had a speeding ticket in more than 15 years. And she had only one regret about Tuesday's incident. "I just yanked that little devil off the fishing line," she said. "I should have just done a better job and finished it off for good." The Associated Press contributed to this report. http://www...rida-capitol-woman-in-custody/
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Dec 24 10:23:56 She should read The Constitution again, if she ever did.
Aeros Member	Wed Dec 24 10:38:03 These things are easily remedied by not putting religious displays in government buildings.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Dec 24 10:46:37 Or by putting offenders in prison for 10 years for the first offense. Not too stiff a sentence for violating The Constitution.
Aeros Member	Wed Dec 24 10:57:31 The Constitution is not a criminal code you fuck wit.
McKobb Member	Wed Dec 24 12:00:37 If the people behind it are atheists then I say take it down. If they are satanists then keep it up but decorate it with their heads in true reverence to their master.
pillz Member	Wed Dec 24 12:55:49 McKobb the good American that he is is advocating the murder of persons expressing their religious freedoms. Typical. Lets behead muslims for praying in public too after all dont they behead people?
McKobb Member	Wed Dec 24 13:19:58 You try to go the extra mile...so much for reaching out to cultures.
Camaban The Overseer	Wed Dec 24 13:20:28 >>If the people behind it are atheists then I say take it down. << If you're OK with the suppression of free speech, particularly for no better reason than your own views on what's acceptable, then fair enough. Legally at least, you're in the wrong country though.
Hrothgar Member	Wed Dec 24 13:20:48 I'm fairly surprised the government would choose to allow an obviously insulting theme to be displayed vs. just banning all religious displays. If you are going to have to choose one or the other, banning them all seems the obvious wise choice. How come only idiots are interested in participating in government?
McKobb Member	Wed Dec 24 13:24:15 Satanism isn't atheism. If they want to put up an icon of atheism then go for it.
Camaban The Overseer	Wed Dec 24 13:25:47 >>Satanism isn't atheism. If they want to put up an icon of atheism then go for it.<< So they're not allowed to put something up in support of Satanism if they so choose (and for whatever reasons they believe appropriate)? Should a religious test be applied to anyone who's putting up a display? How do you prevent people from simply lying?
Camaban The Overseer	Wed Dec 24 13:28:45 Also lets not forget you were advocating the murder of Satanists for displaying their beliefs seven posts ago.
McKobb Member	Wed Dec 24 13:34:17 You have to limit display somehow or it will look like helmet kids art project. AND I was totally serious about beheading people in Florida.
Camaban The Overseer	Wed Dec 24 13:37:17 >>You have to limit display somehow or it will look like helmet kids art project.<< So in what way do you believe you should limit the contents of a "free speech" zone without impinging on the free speech of those who are using it? Keeping in mind that those who set this up were attempting to use the legal purpose of this zone to make a statement. >>AND I was totally serious about beheading people in Florida.<< It did look it. Religious people get a bit funny on this subject. They tend to get a bit ready to use violence.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Dec 24 13:43:30 McKobb apparently thinks satire is a crime that should be punished by death.
McKobb Member	Wed Dec 24 13:43:33 I'm not religious nor am I an Atheist with a captal 'A' as in being a proactive asshole who's just trying to fuck with local culture.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Dec 24 13:47:05 You are an Internet troll who thinks people should be killed, because you have an issue with them, no matter how small. We have a couple of those people here, Sam Adams, Dakyron, Rugian etc.
Camaban The Overseer	Wed Dec 24 13:48:37 >>I'm not religious nor am I an Atheist with a captal 'A' as in being a proactive asshole who's just trying to fuck with local culture.<< Could have fooled me. Anyway, so freedom of speech and expression is only OK if you're quiet about it and don't offend anyone? A point should only be made if everyone already agreed with it anyway? Displaying parallels that people might find uncomfortable (because it shows that their beliefs are fundamentally about as valid as those they find abhorrent) and might cause people to think shouldn't be considered free speech?
McKobb Member	Wed Dec 24 13:57:21 Placing anything there is free speech, why not spiderman humping Moby Dick? It's my new Icon to put a Like on. The difference is one is cultural and one is assholery. If they put up a display that represents atheism, whatever that might be, then OK.
kargen Member	Wed Dec 24 14:05:36 "So in what way do you believe you should limit the contents of a "free speech" zone without impinging on the free speech of those who are using it?" I would say use common sense, but that doesn't exist any longer. The nativity scene was put in place to celebrate a key moment for Christians in their religion. The flaming angel was put up to piss people off. A proper Satanic display/tribute would probably just be a mirror as Satanists mostly are self indulgent believing there is no higher power and you should do what you want.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Dec 24 14:17:31 "Placing anything there is free speech, why not spiderman humping Moby Dick?" This is not free speech. This is equal and neutral treatment of religions. The place is under no oligation to allow various expressions of speech in that space. However, it is under obligation to treat all religions equally and neutrally, and therefore of course in public religious manifestations. "I would say use common sense, but that doesn't exist any longer. The nativity scene was put in place to celebrate a key moment for Christians in their religion. " The whole idea of free speech is to remove your's and other biased parties' rule from the decision and tolerate each side's speech to be as offensive as they want, else we will defend to our dying breath yada yada, and entirely constructed to ensure being wholly uninfluenced by how much one side thinks their speech is much more valid.
McKobb Member	Wed Dec 24 14:34:55 So atheism is not a religion so they co-opted a pseudo-religion with questionable cultural representation to troll local religion. aka assholery
Pillz Member	Wed Dec 24 15:01:45 Are you implying that there are not satanists? Or perhaps you think these individuals in particular are falsely identifying as such Have you proof
Camaban The Overseer	Wed Dec 24 15:05:41 Satanism is a pseudo religion? They'd disagree. I'm not really sure what the level of cultural representation has to do with anything though. Is there a minimum representation limit below which religious people should be restricted from demonstrating their views? As for assholery, maybe. It's assholery making a point though, and more importantly it's legally protected assholery. As opposed to the vandal in the OP.
McKobb Member	Wed Dec 24 15:15:33 And what point is that? We don't like your culture so we will lie to counter your display because that makes us ever more so ethical and better than you? It seems from the article there are several self identifying atheists making them not satanists but assholes.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Dec 24 15:17:50 "aka assholery" Well, the sad truth is its about the only time the right furiously calls upon the liberal right to free speech, when the right to speak offensively about a minority group is questioned. But all in all, yeah, its sad when the only time anyone ever yells about free speech is when it concerns not whistleblowing, or speaking freely even when its negative about the rulers, or about speaking freely about any intellectual idea one might have, but just to demand the legal right to be an asshole.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Dec 24 15:19:01 * its about the only time the right wing furiously calls
Camaban The Overseer	Wed Dec 24 15:28:58 >>And what point is that?<< Probably to keep all religion separate from government or public funding and support. >>We don't like your culture so we will lie to counter your display because that makes us ever more so ethical and better than you?<< Probably more you can have religious displays in public areas if you want. Given that all religions are meant to be treated as equally valid you might not like it. The woman in the OP is a vandal who reacted to a peaceful display with violence. >>It seems from the article there are several self identifying atheists making them not satanists but assholes.<< So you believe that people should be forbidden from participating in anything to do with a religion they don't personally follow? I'm a atheist. Tomorrow I'm celebrating Christmas. Should this be illegal? Should someone who dislikes Christianity come and set fire to the presents that have been wrapped? Should I be assaulted for singing carols? Or is this only acceptable when a non believer participates in a less represented religion's customs?
McKobb Member	Wed Dec 24 15:48:23 I find no one arguing that the lady wasn't a vandal, I'd have to check for gene marker M172 to be certain. I'm celebrating x-mas tomorrow too, the point is these people are trying to make an ethical point from an unethical stance. You don't fight religion with a shouting match, but by being ethical minus a god. IMO the opposite of atheism is not religion, but intolerance which this gesture has a heaping helping of.
Camaban The Overseer	Wed Dec 24 15:57:13 >>the point is these people are trying to make an ethical point from an unethical stance.<< No they're not. They're making a legal point from an increasingly solid base. They don't want to appear more moral or ethical than Christians. If it happens it's simply an added bonus (that this woman handed to them). They probably want to make a statement about what equality of religion actually means, and if someone takes them to court to try and get them to take it down then that's just perfect (they'll win). >>You don't fight religion with a shouting match, but by being ethical minus a god. IMO the opposite of atheism is not religion, but intolerance which this gesture has a heaping helping of.<< Intolerance would be attempting to destroy what others had put up. Who have they been intolerant of? They provoked intolerance, but how were they intolerant themselves?
McKobb Member	Wed Dec 24 16:06:42 They lied to have their display, kinda unethical. Mocking someones culture is intolerant. Even I can understand that.
Camaban The Overseer	Wed Dec 24 16:21:27 Ethics don't come into it. And this is the first time I've heard of satire being described as intolerant. They didn't like the original display but they did tolerate it. Maybe look up what tolerant actually means. As Mr. Garrison said, you don't have to like something to tolerate it. You don't even really have to be silent. You just have to put up with it. The only intolerant person here is the woman.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Dec 24 16:35:50 I like how it is fact now that the satanic symbol was put there by atheists. In order to make the argument that satire should be punished by death. Which somehow makes more sense for people like McKoob.
McKobb Member	Wed Dec 24 17:12:33 Nim, I like you. But how the fuck did you come to that conclusion, lol? Cam, then the argument comes down to is mocking/provoking 'putting up with it'.
Camaban The Overseer	Wed Dec 24 17:26:18 Re-read the article, look at the actions of all concerned, compare and contrast, then tell me what is tolerant and what isn't.
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Wed Dec 24 17:39:53 shit, did not mean to break the thread by forgetting the s
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Dec 24 17:43:44 It is a nuke worthy offense, at the very least you deserve to be beheaded in the town square.
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Wed Dec 24 18:01:44 You seem to think that I give a shit about what you have to say. Either that or you actually feel you are important. Hilarious either way
Hrothgar Member	Wed Dec 24 19:06:38 Again, the main point of all this being: What government genius figured it was worth allowing an OBVIOUS anti-Christian "in your face" display with an OBVIOUS Christian "in your face" holiday display was moron. If there is legal basis that such be allowed at the same time, in the same place - then you deny them all and have none. That is the sane way to keep the peace of a separate church and state land. You don't encourage opposing ideologies to mix angrily and unproductively. That's utterly ridiculous. No one on either side is going to feel kinder or more accepting of the other in this situation. On only acts to harm population cohesion as a whole. And population cohesion should be the overarching goal of any effective, long lasting government.
williamthebastard Member	Thu Dec 25 05:28:30 Possibly, the second group argued that they cant suddenly ban all religious activity when they want to participate after allowing the catholic church perform religious activities there for several years, which is a fair point.
williamthebastard Member	Thu Dec 25 05:29:31 Also, how much social cohesion is worth various levels of suppression is up for debate.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Dec 25 06:24:13 You seem to think that I make posts exclusively for your benefit. We can add delusion to the long list of your mental disabilities.
TJ Member	Thu Dec 25 10:39:33 Running the mental gambit. Let it not be forgotten that a single individual created this disturbance of intolerance and suddenly both ideologies become the evil scourges of our earth. It is the common thread that is sown into the fabric of existence as the fuse that ignites an explosion while standing at a safe distance. Peace is an individual act as well is hatred. Joy to the world and Happy Holidays to everyone.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Fri Dec 26 11:16:36 If Joe Atheist believes that his version of atheism FOR HIM means worshiping Satan, the state has no right to define or police atheism in such a way that Joe Atheist isn't allowed to be what he considers an atheist. Unless of course we are going to let the Protestant plurality define Christianity in such a way as to exclude Catholics and Mormons. Which, if you went to an Evangelical majority county in the bible belt, the majority would no-doubt want to do. And then we would have Mormons getting arrested for claiming to be Christians while out and about door-knocking.
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