Utopia Talk / Politics / Rebels shoot down aircraft pt 5

Hot Rod Revved Up	Sat Jul 19 18:13:45 http://www...hread=69009&time=1405810849796 ^-Previous thread.
Hellfire Member	Sat Jul 19 18:25:22 "Either Russians or Ukrainians. Mostly likely Ukraine as it had twice the number of batteries to fuck up with if we assume Russia actually had one deployed in Ukraine." A Ukrainian cargo aircraft and fighter had been taken down in the previous couple days, and then a civilian airliner goes down and you seriously think it was the Ukrainians? You're seriously delusional.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sat Jul 19 18:28:30 They have proven it was a Russian SAM, they have video of it going across the border into Russia with two rockets missing. Plus they have proof it was fired from a rebel held town and the rebel leader was fully aware of the firing.
Im better then you 2012 UP Football Champ	Sat Jul 19 18:30:37 Kiev is also going though the wreckage stealing people's credit cards and posing with the dead in rebel uniforms.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sat Jul 19 18:36:40 The plane is down in rebel held territory on the other side of the country from Kiev.
jergul large member	Sat Jul 19 18:44:57 Hellfire Ukraine blames the Russian airforce for downing one of its planes and has placed it air defences on high alert. No one doubts the rebels have and can use Manpads, but state actors are behind shooting down high altitude aircraft. 1. A monumental screw up occured. 2. Ukraine had 2 BUK batteries on high alert in range. 3. Russia may perhaps have had 1. Both countries have downed civilian aircraft at high altitude in the past. So 66% chance it was the Ukraine and 33% chance it was Russia (if we accept as true they actually did have a BUK system in the area). Hot Rod No they don't. They have claims they have proof. This is why we want to wait for an international investigation to draw its conclusions based on evidence.
Hellfire Member	Sat Jul 19 18:50:13 "Ukraine blames the Russian airforce for downing one of its planes and has placed it air defences on high alert. " And what about the other one? You're telling me that the plane flew all the fucking way across Ukraine and was heading towards Russia and then the Ukrainians decided to shoot it down? And you base your chances purely on the number of units in the area? That's patently absurd. "Hey, Russia or the Rebels just shot down two other planes, I bet this third one was the Ukrainians!" ... Give me a break
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sat Jul 19 18:53:01 I saw the video, I heard the translation and they do indeed know where the SAM was launched from and where the plane hit the ground. That's good enough for me. Besides, there is only so much more an international investigation will come up with. The Russians and the rebels are destroying evidence and the will not allow an international team in. Plus the black boxes have "disappeared" but it is reasonable the Russians have them and they probably won't reveal much anyway. You have been schooled, give it up.
Hellfire Member	Sat Jul 19 18:53:11 http://onl...ities-say-officials-1405781508 Mr. Nayda said that Ukrainian intelligence showed that a three-man Russian military team entered Ukraine along with one of the Buk missile systems. He didn't say when the equipment crossed the border into Ukraine. Intelligence, including photographs and electronic intercepts, compiled by Ukrainian spies show that three Buk-M1 systems were shipped out of eastern Ukraine on flatbed trucks in two waves in the early morning of July 18, said Mr. Nayda. A system missing a missile crossed the border in a flatbed truck to Russia at 2 a.m., and two other missile systems with complete set of missiles crossed at 4 a.m., he said. Mr. Navda said that his agency has shared this intelligence with U.S. officials, but it wasn't possible to immediately verify his information. ----------------------------------------------------- I couldn't tell you whether the Ukrainians are telling the truth or not but it's absurd to guess the chances of who shot down the plane based on speculated number of systems in the area.
jergul large member	Sat Jul 19 18:55:17 swordtail Anarchist Prime Militias do not have Ukrainian Buk missile system — Ukraine general prosecutor World July 18, 10:43 UTC+4 Ukrainian Interior Minister Anton Gerashchenko said on July 17 that the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 airliner had been downed by the Buk missile system http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741271 http://www.pravda.com.ua/articles/2014/07/18/7032354/ http://www.microsofttranslator.com/BV.aspx?ref=IE8Activity&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pravda.com.ua%2Farticles%2F2014%2F07%2F18%2F7032354%2F translated thru google: - Це могли бути українські "Буки", наприклад, які, як заявляли терористи, вони захопили на території військових частин Донецька? - Військові доповідають про те, що у терористів немає наших "Буків. Тобто наша військова техніка у вигляді зенітно-ракетних комплексів "Бук" чи С 300 у нас не пропадала в зоні активних дій АТО. - It could be a Ukrainian "Buki" for example, which, as stated terrorists are captured in the units Donetsk? - The military report that there are no terrorists in our "beeches. Means, that our military equipment in the form of anti-aircraft missile systems" Buk "C or 300 we have not disappeared in the area of ​​action ATO.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Sat Jul 19 18:58:00 thanks for cleaning it up
jergul large member	Sat Jul 19 18:59:30 Hellfire 1. Massive fuckup. 2. Ukrainian batteries on high alert 3. Perhaps a Russian battery was there too. High alert means fire authority is at battery level. Given chronic undefunding, very old BUK systems and poor training, it would be more likely to be Ukraine than the raw numbers suggest. Remembering that we are just assuming for the sake of argument Russia had a battery in the Ukraine. 2:1 That Ukraine did it at the very least. =========== Well, at least we have put to rest the insane theory the rebels shot it down.
Hellfire Member	Sat Jul 19 19:05:37 " Given chronic undefunding, very old BUK systems and poor training, it would be more likely to be Ukraine than the raw numbers suggest. " Given that RUSSIANS OR REBELS HAVE BEEN SHOOTING DOWN MILITARY PLANES IN THE LAST SEVERAL DAYS, it would be more likely that RUSSIANS OR REBELS SHOT DOWN THE PASSENGER PLANE. jesus fucking christ you're dense
Aeros Member	Sat Jul 19 19:07:56 http://www...ance_to_escape_losing_war.html Vladimir Putin missing chance to escape losing war Putin must disown the pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine most likely responsible for the downing of a Malaysia Airlines flight, or risk losing Russia’s remaining allies. Russian President Vladimir Putin is missing a golden opportunity by not disowning the pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine. Instead, as pro-Putin media and social network trolls invent increasingly fantastical versions of the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, Russia risks becoming a pariah even to developing countries that have sympathized with its anti-American stance. "The state over whose territory this happened bears responsibility for this horrible tragedy," Putin said Friday as he opened a meeting on the economy in Moscow. So his reaction to the death of 298 people on board the Malaysia Airlines jet is to blame the Ukrainian authorities, who, he said, shouldn't have "resumed military action in the southeast of Ukraine." It is difficult, however, to convincingly lay blame for MH17 at Ukraine's door, because the pro-Russian rebels are the ones who have been shooting down aircraft in the area: They have no warplanes of their own, and anti-aircraft weapons are their only way to counteract the government forces’ supremacy in the air. Ukraine's military, by contrast, have nothing to shoot at that has wings. The Russian propaganda machine is struggling to deal with this simple fact. So far, the following versions have surfaced: The Ukrainians launched a missile hoping to shoot down Putin's own plane. "A source in the Russian Federal Air Transport Agency" told the Interfax news agency that the Malaysian jet and Putin's specially modified Il-96 briefly passed the same spot 10,100 metres over Poland on Thursday, and the two planes look alike from a distance: both are big and decorated with red, white and blue stripes. "Considering the schizophrenia in Kyiv political circles, this version does not appear absurd," pro-Putin TV host Vitaly Tretyakov wrote on Livejournal. The residents of Grabovo, a village near the crash site, saw a warplane in the sky "several minutes before the crash." They also saw it "launch several missiles." Then debris started raining down. Other Russian media quote rebel representatives saying with certainty that a Ukrainian fighter plane was responsible. The other Malaysian Airlines loss, Flight MH370, which mysteriously disappeared in March, was hijacked with a view to staging a provocation against Russia and now, finally, has been used. The bodies at the crash site are those of MH370 passengers: they're partially decomposed and the European passports found strewn on the ground are suspiciously new. A Spanish air traffic controller working in Ukraine said on Twitter that Ukrainians shot down the plane. The Ukrainian authorities then threatened him so he wouldn't disclose the truth. (Twitter closed down the account after ascertaining there was no such air traffic controller in Kyiv). I may have missed a few other colourful myths, but the general plan is clear: to sow doubt in the minds of ordinary Russians. "The more versions, the less clear it is, the less clear it is, the more time there is to work out the final version that will later become canonical," columnist Oleg Kashin wrote on svpressa.ru. As Kashin also points out, it isn't Russian TV that writes the canonical version of events internationally. In the eyes of the world, Putin is as guilty as he is portrayed in Friday's front page headline of the British tabloid, The Sun: “Flight MH17 shot out of sky. Putin’s missile,” it reads. If Putin keeps backing the insurgents until their inevitable defeat, his international isolation will deepen, as did that of the Soviet Union's leaders after their jets shot down a Korean passenger jet in 1983, and former Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi after the 1988 bombing of a PanAm airliner over Lockerbie, Scotland. Malaysia, a Muslim nation that has long fought American influence, can hardly be expected to listen to Russian fairy-tales about the crash. The developing world will now join the West in condemning the rebels — and Putin as their only ally. "It's one thing to be the modest helper of some rebels," former Russian diplomat Alexander Baunov wrote on Facebook. "It's another thing to help insurgents who have perpetrated one of the biggest terrorist attacks in the history of aviation." By disowning the rebels immediately — in the form of criminal proceedings against the Russian citizens among them, the immediate withdrawal of any Russian aid for them and a public admission that it was their activity that led to the downing of MH17 — Putin could abandon the losing side while saving face. The window of opportunity for Putin to escape this losing war is shrinking, however, and he is unlikely to get a better chance. Leonid Bershidsky is a Moscow-based writer and a columnist with Bloomberg View.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Sat Jul 19 19:21:00 Facts Needed on Malaysian Plane Shoot-Down July 18, 2014 Exclusive: As usual, the mainstream U.S. media is rushing to judgment over the crash of a Malaysian airliner in war-torn eastern Ukraine, but the history of U.S. government’s deceptions might be reason to pause and let a careful investigation uncover the facts, says ex-CIA analyst Ray McGovern. By Ray McGovern It will likely take some time to determine who downed the Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people onboard. Initial speculation is that someone with a missile battery mistook the plane as a military aircraft, but the precise motive may be even harder to discern. Given the fog of war and the eagerness among the various participants to wage “information warfare,” there is also the possibility that evidence – especially electronic evidence – might be tampered with to achieve some propaganda victory. Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko immediately labeled the tragedy “a terrorist act” although there was no evidence that anyone intentionally shot down the civilian airliner. But Poroshenko and others in the Kiev government have previously designated the ethnic Russians, who are resisting the Feb. 22 overthrow of elected President Viktor Yanukovych, as “terrorists” so Poroshenko’s bellicose language was not a surprise. For their part, the separatist rebels in eastern Ukraine denied responsibility for the crash – saying they lacked anti-aircraft missiles that could reach the 33,000-foot altitude of the Malaysian airliner – but there are reasons to suspect the rebels, including their previously successful efforts to shoot down Ukrainian military aircraft operating in the war zone. On Thursday, Russian President Vladimir Putin deflected questions about who may have fired the missile as he called for an international investigation. But he made a telling point when he noted that the “tragedy would not have happened if military actions had not been renewed in southeast Ukraine.” Those likely to agree with that statement include German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande who, during a lengthy four-way conference call with Poroshenko on June 30, tried desperately to get him to prolong the ceasefire. Only the U.S. voiced support for Poroshenko’s decision to spurn that initiative and order Ukrainian forces into a major offensive in the east. It was in the context of Ukrainian forces using their airpower to strike rebel positions that led to the rebels’ efforts to neutralize that advantage by deploying anti-aircraft missiles that have achieved some success in downing Ukrainian military planes. The Ukrainian military is also known to possess anti-aircraft batteries scattered throughout the country. Raw Meat for Russia Bashing But the chance to further demonize Putin and Russia will be hard for Official Washington and its corporate-owned press to resist. The New York Times was quick out of the starting blocks on Friday with a lead editorial blaming the entire Ukraine conflict, including the Malaysian Airline tragedy, on Putin: “There is one man who can stop it – President Vladimir Putin of Russia, by telling the Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine to end their insurgency and by stopping the flow of money and heavy weapons to those groups.” Among Putin’s alleged offenses, according to the Times, has been his “failing to support a cease-fire and avoiding serious, internationally mediated negotiations” – though Putin has actually been one of principal advocates for both a cease-fire and a negotiated solution. It has been the U.S.-backed Poroshenko who canceled the previous cease-fire and has refused to negotiate with the ethnic Russian rebels until they essentially surrender. But the death of all 298 people onboard the Malaysian Airline flight, going from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, will surely provide plenty of fuel for the already roaring anti-Russian propaganda machine. Still, the U.S. press might pause to recall how it’s been manipulated by the U.S. government in the past, including three decades ago by the Reagan administration twisting the facts of the KAL-007 tragedy. In that case, a Soviet fighter jet shot down a Korean Air Line plane on Sept. 1, 1983, after it strayed hundreds of miles off course and penetrated some of the Soviet Union’s most sensitive airspace over military facilities in Kamchatka and Sakhalin Island. Over Sakhalin, KAL-007 was finally intercepted by a Soviet Sukhoi-15 fighter. The Soviet pilot tried to signal the plane to land, but the KAL pilots did not respond to the repeated warnings. Amid confusion about the plane’s identity — a U.S. spy plane had been in the vicinity hours earlier — Soviet ground control ordered the pilot to fire. He did, blasting the plane out of the sky and killing all 269 people on board. The Soviets soon realized they had made a horrendous mistake. U.S. intelligence also knew from sensitive intercepts that the tragedy had resulted from a blunder, not from a willful act of murder (much as on July 3, 1988, the USS Vincennes fired a missile that brought down an Iranian civilian airliner in the Persian Gulf, killing 290 people, an act which President Ronald Reagan explained as an “understandable accident”). But a Soviet admission of a tragic blunder regarding KAL-007 wasn’t good enough for the Reagan administration, which saw the incident as a propaganda windfall. At the time, the felt imperative in Washington was to blacken the Soviet Union in the cause of Cold War propaganda and to escalate tensions with Moscow. Falsifying the Case To make the very blackest case against Moscow, the Reagan administration suppressed the exculpatory evidence from the U.S. electronic intercepts. The U.S. mantra became “the deliberate downing of a civilian passenger plane.” Newsweek ran a cover emblazoned with the headline “Murder in the Sky.” “The Reagan administration’s spin machine began cranking up,” wrote Alvin A. Snyder, then-director of the U.S. Information Agency’s television and film division, in his 1995 book, Warriors of Disinformation. USIA Director Charles Z. Wick “ordered his top agency aides to form a special task force to devise ways of playing the story overseas. The objective, quite simply, was to heap as much abuse on the Soviet Union as possible,” Snyder recalled. Snyder noted that “the American media swallowed the U.S. government line without reservation. Said the venerable Ted Koppel on the ABC News ‘Nightline’ program: ‘This has been one of those occasions when there is very little difference between what is churned out by the U.S. government propaganda organs and by the commercial broadcasting networks.’” On Sept. 6, 1983, the Reagan administration went so far as to present a doctored transcript of the intercepts to the United Nations Security Council (a prelude to a similar false presentation two decades later by Secretary of State Colin Powell on Iraq’s alleged weapons of mass destruction). “The tape was supposed to run 50 minutes,” Snyder said about recorded Soviet intercepts. “But the tape segment we [at USIA] had ran only eight minutes and 32 seconds. … ‘Do I detect the fine hand of [Richard Nixon's secretary] Rosemary Woods here?’ I asked sarcastically.’” But Snyder had a job to do: producing the video that his superiors wanted. “The perception we wanted to convey was that the Soviet Union had cold-bloodedly carried out a barbaric act,” Snyder wrote. Only a decade later, when Snyder saw the complete transcripts — including the portions that the Reagan administration had hidden — would he fully realize how many of the central elements of the U.S. presentation were false. The Soviet fighter pilot apparently did believe he was pursuing a U.S. spy plane, according to the intercepts, and he was having trouble in the dark identifying the plane. At the instructions of Soviet ground controllers, the pilot had circled the KAL airliner and tilted his wings to force the aircraft down. The pilot said he fired warning shots, too. “This comment was also not on the tape we were provided,” Snyder wrote. It was clear to Snyder that in the pursuit of its Cold War aims, the Reagan administration had presented false accusations to the United Nations, as well as to the people of the United States and the world. To these Republicans, the ends of smearing the Soviets had justified the means of falsifying the historical record. In his book, Snyder acknowledged his role in the deception and drew an ironic lesson from the incident. The senior USIA official wrote, “The moral of the story is that all governments, including our own, lie when it suits their purposes. The key is to lie first.” [For more details on the KAL-007 deception and the history of U.S. trickery, see Consortiumnews.com’s “A Dodgy Dossier on Syrian War.”] Reliability of U.S. Intelligence It was not always this way. There was a time when the U.S. government wouldn’t risk its credibility for a cheap propaganda stunt, knowing that there are moments when it is crucial for the world to believe what U.S. officials say. Some of us will remember when, in 1962, U.S. Ambassador to the UN Adlai Stevenson showed the Security Council U-2 photographs of fledgling Soviet offensive missile bases in Cuba. It was the perfect squelch to the Soviets and their allies trying to sow doubt about the truth behind President John F. Kennedy’s allegations. Sadly, the credibility of U.S. officials and American intelligence is now at rock bottom. One need only think back on the evidence adduced to “prove” the existence of WMD in Iraq. “The intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy” is what the head of British intelligence told Prime Minister Tony Blair on July 23, 2002, after conferring with CIA Director George Tenet at CIA headquarters on July 20. I also have grown more and more suspicious of the official U.S. government account about the crash of TWA-800 on July 17, 1996. Shortly after departing Kennedy Airport in New York, the plane exploded off Long Island with 230 people killed. More than 100 eyewitnesses reported seeing an object they described variously as a “missile,” “flare” or “rocket” rise up into the sky and merge with TWA Flight 800. The immediate suspicion was that the disaster was an act of terrorism, although some speculation focused on the presence of U.S. Navy missile-carrying warships in the area. However, after raising much of the plane’s wreckage from the sea bottom, the National Transportation Safety Board and Justice Department/FBI dismissed the eyewitness accounts of a missile and concluded instead that the explosion was caused by an electrical malfunction. To help in selling this version, the CIA “technical experts” working under CIA Director George Tenet – yes, the same fellow who described the Iraq WMD evidence as a “slam dunk” – were enlisted to prepare a video artfully designed to discredit the missile claims. But the TWA800 Project Investigative Team – a determined group of engineers, scientists, eyewitnesses and journalists – have continued to challenge the official findings, including the CIA video. [To see the team’s rebuttal, click here.] Quite aside from the likelihood that CIA exceeded its authority with its involvement in this domestic issue, it pains me as a former CIA analyst that my former colleagues would take part in this kind of deception, producing a video that was unprofessional at best and fraudulent at worst. So, there is, sadly, additional reason to kick the tires of any fancy truck carrying “intelligence” offered by the U.S. with respect to the Malaysian Airline shoot-down on Thursday. Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, a publishing ministry of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in inner-city Washington. He served as a CIA analyst for 27 years and is now on the Steering Group of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS). http://con...on-malaysian-plane-shoot-down/
jergul large member	Sat Jul 19 19:56:45 Hellfire Its actually very unlikely that any BUK system would shoot down a civilian aircraft flying at high altitude. But there is no way to draw a meaningful distinction between Ukrainian and Russian batteries on high alert. They would all be ready to engage hostile aircraft incursions into their envelopes. The problem here is that one of them engaged a civilian aircraft. It was a huge fuckup by someone. All we need to do then is count the someones available to do this. 2 Ukrainian someones and perhaps 1 Russian someone. Aeros Get with the program. The rebels did not have a BUK according to Ukrainian authorities. It was either a Russian controlled BUK (M3) or a a Ukrainian soviet era BUK (M1) without FFI or a transponder identifier.
jergul large member	Sat Jul 19 19:58:16 The Russian BUK M3 has FFI and civilian transponder identifiers.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Jul 19 20:13:33 Everyone is on the same page, following the logic and the evidence. Except jergul.
jergul large member	Sat Jul 19 20:23:21 I am just going to assume you are trolling to save face sammy. You were wrong. I was right. As always. Now that the insane theory that the rebels did it is out of the picture, we can focus on what state actor screwed up magnificently. Most likely the Ukraine, possibly Russia. Its not as if either has never shot down a civilian airliner at high altitudes before.
dakyron Member	Sat Jul 19 21:52:56 Umm... Rebels are Russian state actors. At least some of them. They are driving Russian tanks offs, you think they had those in their garage?
JNH Member	Sat Jul 19 22:44:34 "Its actually very unlikely that any BUK system would shoot down a civilian aircraft flying at high altitude." On the other hand an individual captured BUK TELAR picking a target from the sky based on visual observation and with limited information on what's going on in the airspace...
JNH Member	Sat Jul 19 23:05:30 "No one doubts the rebels have and can use Manpads, but state actors are behind shooting down high altitude aircraft." An-25 was shot down from 6500 meters, beyond the range of MANPADS. Maybe Ukraine first shot down their Antonov and then a civilian airliner?
pillz Member	Sun Jul 20 01:14:39 JNH comes out of nowhere with 6500 meters, when everybody else agrees it was 3500.
Hellfire Member	Sun Jul 20 01:16:47 "All we need to do then is count the someones available to do this. 2 Ukrainian someones and perhaps 1 Russian someone. " And then consider who the hell has been shooting down aircraft in the last few fucking days. This is where you need to get it through your dense fucking head that there is one side that has been downing aircraft and are therefore the most likely to have shot down another one. I'm not saying that it's 100% but it's sure as hell more likely that the side that's been shooting down aircraft shot another one down.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sun Jul 20 02:12:52 Why doesn't the United Nations put together a large contingent of heavily armed military to escort the investigators into the crash site? Though it is probably too late already. I'm sure the Russians and the rebels have already destroyed all of the evidence by now.
JNH Member	Sun Jul 20 02:24:18 "JNH comes out of nowhere with 6500 meters, when everybody else agrees it was 3500." Was that because Igla max altitude is 3500 meters and it was assumed that they don't have other weapons or was there some other source? Ukraine defense minister claimed altitude was 6500.
Aeros Member	Sun Jul 20 04:28:02 I honestly wonder if Jergul is one of the Kremlins paid internet trolls, or maybe hopes to become one. He always was a borderline KreeL though, having never met a conspiracy theory he didn't like so long as it countered what he desperately did not want to be true.
Aeros Member	Sun Jul 20 04:45:14 Also, here are some of the pictures from the crash scene you will not find in the papers. NSFW. https://encyclopediadramatica.es/File:MH17_Gore_01.jpg
Aeros Member	Sun Jul 20 04:45:31 http://encyclopediadramatica.es/File:MH17_Dead_Baby_01.jpg
Aeros Member	Sun Jul 20 04:45:43 http://encyclopediadramatica.es/File:MH17_Gore_01.jpg
Aeros Member	Sun Jul 20 04:46:42 http://encyclopediadramatica.es/File:MH17_Wreckage_12.jpg
jergul large member	Sun Jul 20 05:26:58 Aeros You might aspire to work for whatever trinkets east block state security agencies pay their stooges. Thanks for the ogrish style photos, stooge. Maybe the Ukrainian KGB will see it as a job application. "Broken asshole" would be a great code name for you. You could text "Broken asshole is down, broken asshole is down" ever time you lost your internet connection. JHN Ukraine claims the plane was lost at that altitude and was shot down by a Russian fighter. Ukraine also contends that all their BUKs are accounted for and in friendly hands. So according to sources, an event so unlikely to have never occured in the history of mankand became even more unlikely because now their is not BUK launcher in rebel hands either. Hellfire What can I say? Most of the aircraft downed are attributed rebel manpads. Ukraine claims 1 was downed by a Russian fighter. Ukraine then put its batteries on high alert. There is not way to say batteries on high alert on one side are less likely to do something than a possible battery on high alert on the other side. If you want to do that, then you have to look at things like training, funding, and specific version limitations. All factors that increase the likelihood of Ukraine screwing up. This is either Russia, or the Ukraine. The Ukraine had twice the hardware to screw up with (if we accept as true that Russia indeed did have a battery in the area). Daky State collusion and general corruption is a given. But rebels driving off tanks from storage after paying off the retired guy oiling them is not something you want to attribute state actors. We would never have proxy wars if you did that. An complex air defence system is a completely different matter. Those are by definition under the control of state actors (simply because in the history of mankind, no rebel group ever has managed to successfully shoot down a high altitude aircraft with captured hardware).
McKobb Member	Sun Jul 20 05:33:58 Jergul holds steadfast in his rationalization!
Aeros Member	Sun Jul 20 05:38:49 Fortunately the rest of the planet does not listen to jergul. Dutch newspapers this morning are calling military intervention in ukraine. Man they are pissed, you would think its the 1600s again.
jergul large member	Sun Jul 20 05:45:59 McKobb and Aeros Its Ukraine's official line too. They got on board with a plausible not-ukraine scenario yesterday. The only problem they have is that plausible includes themselves. Fortunately, these things are usually cleared up in the end by proper investigations. Stop having tweets for brains if you possibly could.
Aeros Member	Sun Jul 20 06:02:26 You know what the adage is about digging your hole deeper. There is absolutely no way for the rebels to cover this up, not with.the amount of surveillance assets watching the area. Far smarter to admit to the mistake then cover it up. Accidents happen, but when you start trying to cover it up you turn into something more sinister then it already is. You also enrage the parties involved. These rebels need to keep in mind that if the netherlands invokes the north atlantic charter over the murder of almost 200 of its citizens, it is game over. Some contrition and respect would go a long way to preventing that. Both of which are missing.
Aeros Member	Sun Jul 20 06:05:31 You know what the adage is about digging your hole deeper. There is absolutely no way for the rebels to cover this up, not with.the amount of surveillance assets watching the area. Far smarter to admit to the mistake then cover it up. Accidents happen, but when you start trying to cover it up you turn into something more sinister then it already is. You also enrage the parties involved. These rebels need to keep in mind that if the netherlands invokes the north atlantic charter over the murder of almost 200 of its citizens, it is game over. Some contrition and respect would go a long way to preventing that. Both of which are missing.
werewolf dictator Member	Sun Jul 20 06:31:00 'Jergul holds steadfast in his rationalization!' after fall of slaviansk the situation was.. 1. most pro-russian region of ukraine [besides crimea i.e. donetsk] left as kiev's 'next/final target' 2. lots of angry russia'ns who do not want to see donetsk [city] fall by artillery with civilians inside the same way slaviansk did.. many civilians fleeing donetsk [city] in anticipation of attack similar to slaviansk 3. first reports i tended to believe of heavy weapon flows from russia into ukraine [ie from russia into ukraine donetsk oblast region] 4. 'rebels' suddenly becoming much much better at shooting aircraft down 5. complaints by kiev of russia using its airforce over border including bombing kiev military [or paramilitary].. and kiev saying their air defense was on high alert 6. complaints by kiev and moscow that each other's governments shooting across border 7. along with above.. signals from moscow that i took to be implied warnings that moscow was likely to directly stop kiev by whatever means necessary if they assaulted donetsk [city] in similar manner to slaviansk with 3. and 4. especially.. and being very honest.. it looks more likely 'rationalization' to say 'rebels' shot down the airliner [as topic is named].. because 'rebels' make good scapegoats avoiding embarrassment [accusing kiev on the one hand] or drifts to world war iii [directly accusing moscow on the other hand] 'These rebels need to keep in mind that if the netherlands invokes the north atlantic charter over the murder of almost 200 of its citizens, it is game over.' incorrect
Aeros Member	Sun Jul 20 06:39:21 "incorrect" No, its correct. The incident occurred in Europe. It is covered by the North Atlantic Charter. Of course, that would require the Netherlands wanting to respond in that manner, which is unlikely at the moment. The point I am making however is the Rebels and their Russian masters should be keeping that in mind, rather then treating the situation in the crass and cavalier manner they currently are.
jergul large member	Sun Jul 20 06:39:51 Aeros Ukraine's 2001 coverup when it downed a civilian airliner at high altitude did not go well either. They blame rebels (chechen that time) initially too. I would love to see Ukraine appologize as it remains the likely party that should. Just for the lulz of seeing a damning terrorist act magically transform into a accidental tragedy. Invoke the charter against Russia or the Ukraine. Yah, the Netherlands should do that. Lets watch the security assurances of the treaty fall apart. I would argue the incident did not qualify, but when the US got WTC in, then anything goes.
McKobb Member	Sun Jul 20 06:44:49 The dutch should send troops to escort the investigative team.
Aeros Member	Sun Jul 20 07:03:04 Who said invoking it against Russia? Just invoke it against the Donetsk Peoples Republic. They want to be a Big Boy country after all.
jergul large member	Sun Jul 20 07:12:41 Any other 0,000000000001% likelihood events you would like to pull out of your ass agent "broken asshole"?
Sam Adams Member	Sun Jul 20 07:54:55 The dutch really should start with banning russian planes from amsterdam.
jergul large member	Sun Jul 20 08:09:32 You know how heavily Holland relies on Russian natural gas, right? In addition to Dutch airlines probably having at least 10 times the number of flights to Russia as Russian airlines do to holland.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Sun Jul 20 08:22:07 http://con...or-spurs-new-rush-to-judgment/
Sam Adams Member	Sun Jul 20 08:44:59 The world will side with holland, jergul. Except for a couple shitty little worthless republics, everyone will line up against russia. You know this. Stop being a mouthpiece for stupidity jergul.
jergul large member	Sun Jul 20 09:21:38 Sammy I was the first one to firmly suggest Russia may be directly responsible Sammy. The rest of the world was pretty much running with some insane sequence of events that never before have happened in the history of mankind. The rest is just probability. One massive screw up and possibly 3 batteries on high alert able to screw up like that. 2 of the batteries are Ukrainian. A third one may have been fielded by Russia. You just have to account for poorly paid and trained Ukrainians on high alert operating two batteries of outdated soviet era hardware. Its not as if they have not shot down a civilian airliner by mistake before either.
jergul large member	Sun Jul 20 09:25:29 So when you said "Holland should", you actually meant the part of the world that is either the US or a client state of the US. For what? Mistakenly shooting down a civilian airliner? That happens quite regularly, so stop being a bitch about it.
Sam Adams Member	Sun Jul 20 09:30:11 Russians/rebels shot this plane down, almost certainly. Everyone knows this, except you and a couple idiotic russian propaganda writers. This pathetic and idiotic denial on your parts makes the isolation that will be coming to russia worse.
jergul large member	Sun Jul 20 09:40:40 Sammy You are still on about the possibility that rebels shot it down? Never mind that it has never happened in the history of mankind and that additionally the Ukraine denies that the rebels have any BUK systems? The pain you feel is your butt hurting sammy. If we charitably assume Russia actually had deployed a BUK system in the Ukraine (which is far from certain), then we have two crappy ukrainian soviet era BUK systems on high alert in range, and 1 modern Russian BUK system with IFF and transpoder identification on high alert in the area. The Ukraine has fucked up like this before. I am being extremely charitable when I state there is only a 2/3rds chance this was a Ukrainian fuck up.
jergul large member	Sun Jul 20 09:46:51 ST To be fair, Obama only said that the missile came from rebel controlled areas. The Ukrainian batteries are both within rebel controlled areas. The Ukrainian regime has shitloads of enclaves between towns and villages held by rebels. The towns and villages define rebel areas, but should never be taken to mean all regime towns, villages, bases, official buildings, and firing positions have been taken. According the the Ukrainian regime, not a single 156th anti aircraft regiment position has been overrun. They are the guys with the two batteries in question.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Sun Jul 20 10:02:32 jergul like I've stated in the past I don't know who shot it down. the evidence is being collected. I just find it highly amusing how supposedly learned indviduals claim to know what exactly transpired based on"valid" media reports when these same media are parroting US bullshit as fact.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Sun Jul 20 10:04:37 I guess they feel they have to conform or be cast out of the cool clique.
jergul large member	Sun Jul 20 10:09:06 ST I was merely pointing out that Obama has not technically lied even if it turns out Ukraina shot down the aircraft. Though I have probably not seen all his comments on the incident. I do not know either who shot it down. I am convinced it cannot be the rebels and have estimated odd on the two remaining parties it could be. 1/3 to 2/3 is still very uncertain. So I am hedging like hell myself.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Sun Jul 20 10:14:02 obama doesn't need to lie. he and his entourage only need to cloud the waters and let their mouthpieces do the lying for them.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Sun Jul 20 10:15:38 and this way it takes the focus off the atrocities willy wonka and his cronies are committing.
jergul large member	Sun Jul 20 10:20:26 I always like it when they take the courtesy of not lying outright. Funny you should mention muddy waters. Things seem geared towards how impossible an investigation will be because of securing the crash site issues. Which is a bit beside the point if you accept the plane was downed by a BUK missile. Now we need to find out what BUK missile it is. Russia does have a point when it wants Ukraine to account for its missiles as part of an official investigation. They are not that hard to count.
murder Member	Sun Jul 20 10:20:57 This may be the best trolling ever on UP. :o)
JNH Member	Sun Jul 20 13:17:00 "Ukraine claims the plane was lost at that altitude and was shot down by a Russian fighter." Su-25 is claimed to have been shot down by Rus fighter. I'm talking about the Antonov, Ukr government says that it was flying at 6500 and was probably shot down my a missile from Russian side. Rebels claim it was flying lower and was shot down with an Igla. I don't see a point in flying a transport plane at or below 3500 since they know rebels have MANPADS.
obaminated Member	Sun Jul 20 13:28:56 Hey Jergul, look, a Ukrainian who lives in rebel controlled territory. http://www...an_who_currently_lives_on_the/ "From what I know - everything of importance was either destroyed or transported to Russia." Why would anything be sent to Russia if it was all done by Ukraine?
jergul large member	Sun Jul 20 14:05:54 http://the...06/an-30-shot-down-by-manpads/ That is specifically an igla hit. It has an off centre strike signature (I am just showing off with that detail. The Antonov was downed by a manpad as documented by the link).
JNH Member	Sun Jul 20 14:56:14 Last Monday, July 14th An-26 was shot down near Izvarino, Ukr government claims it had been shot with a missile from Rus and it was flying at 6500m. Al-Jazeera, for example: http://www...t-down-201471423420802306.html Your video is from June 6th and nowhere is claimed that Ukr gov says it was shot down by a Rus fighter.
jergul large member	Sun Jul 20 15:18:07 A different episode. Fair enough. But you see that the aircraft is of the same type as the one reportedly shot down on july 14th. They are both recon (surveilance), not transports. So at least we can document they do fly at intermediate altitudes. But it is sort of beside the point. I at least am assuming that Russia indeed did have a BUK battery in high readiness deployed inside of Ukraine. Just as the Ukraine has two of them. So was assuming Russia had assets ready to shoot down aircraft just like the Ukraine. The point was already conceded for the sake of argument. The only question that remains open is who did? Most likely the Ukraine as it has 8 batteries in high readiness in Eastern Ukraine, of which two were reportedly in the relevant area. 2/1 odds in favour of it being the Ukraine in other words.
Sam Adams Member	Sun Jul 20 15:47:38 ^still stuck on minute 4 information on day 4. there was apparently an intelligent soviet bloc person once, but it is just that once and a long time ago.
jergul large member	Sun Jul 20 16:28:54 Sammy You are projecting. The minute four information was rebels responsible. Insane as that seems with the benefit of hindsight and my guiding the forum education. Its either Russian or Ukrainian BUKs responsible. Chances are its Ukrainian. Again, its not like they have not cluster fucked like that before. Keep us updated on how its going with your butthurt sammy. You must feel pretty gay.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Sun Jul 20 17:41:54 would not Ukraine have the full complement of equipment & so have the improved radar and identification abilities... especially considering the plane flew right across the entire country whereas the rebels had the crappy radar of just the missile itself without the support vehicles... thus making a mistake much more likely ...not that your 2:1 theory based solely on existence isn't solid...
JNH Member	Mon Jul 21 00:39:34 jergul, "They are both recon (surveilance), not transports. So at least we can document they do fly at intermediate altitudes." The particular An-26 is said to be a transport. No point flying that thing at MANPAD range. "The only question that remains open is who did?" Well, Pushilin has resigned and the crash site reportedly controlled by drunken thugs, coincidence? Unless you have new information, feel free to repeat your opinion again, I'll ignore it.
jergul large member	Mon Jul 21 04:21:01 TW I completely discount the rebels having shot it down. That is impossible in a never in the history of mankind kind of way in addition to Ukraine saying they have not lost any BUKS either. Rebels have never downed a high altitiude aircraft. State actors have done so with missiles hundreds of times. Either a Russian controlled BUK or a Ukrainian controlled one. Most likely an Ukrainian one. JNH The particular An-26 said to be a transport would by definition need to land somewhere and take off somewhere to be a transport. So certainly in MANPAD range at some occassions. Recon at least gives the option of staying at intermediate altitudes for the entire flight over rebel areas. A resigning Pushilin and drunks at crashsites are two completely unrelated pieces of information. Drunks would be at the crashsite and Puhshilin would resign if Martians or Angels downed the flight. I am merely repeating it because a few posters here show trouble with retaining information. If you got the point, then feel free to ignore my schooling others.
jergul large member	Mon Jul 21 04:29:53 The point remains ultimately that we just do not know. Just be very sceptical of any source claiming rebels did it, any source claiming Russia did it, and any source claiming the Ukraine did it. Let the investigation take its course.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Jul 21 06:17:49 -The missile came from rebel held territory: Jergul says nothing, and simply ignores this info. -The rebels/russians are the only ones shooting down planes, jergul somehow decides that ukrainians would have all their batteries on "high alert", with no source for his stance. -A rebel commander bragged on facebook about shooting down a plane in the region at the same time. Jergul says this is western propaganda. -A rebel commander bragged on twitter about shooting down a plane in the region at the same time. Jergul says this is western propaganda. -A rebel and russian had their phone conversation tapped, in which they discuss how they accidentally shot down the plane. Jergul says this is western propaganda. -rebel villagers saw the sam being shot from behind rebel lines. Jergul ignores this and whines about something else. -video just popped up of a SAM being rolled back to russia with a rocket missing. The evidence, taken as an entire package, is incontrovertible.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Mon Jul 21 06:34:14 jergul, do you think the Fiji Islanders did it?
jergul large member	Mon Jul 21 06:40:33 Sammy Rebel held area includes hundreds of government towns, villages, bases, official buildings, firing positions and chekcpoints. Including all of the 156th anti-aircraft artillery regiment's positions. Who have 8 BUK batteries in Eastern Ukraine, of which two of them were in the are of question. I have posted this numerous times ritalin boy. The Ukrainians placed their air defences on high alert after claiming a Russian plane shot down one of theirs. They are in other words as ready to face air incursions as the rebels are. The source is the Ukrainian government. A link was posted in the discussion. Rumoured deleted FB and tweeter posts do not matter even if true. All they represent is rebels thinking a different rebel group shot down the plane. Specifically cossaks manning a checkpoint. The same is true about the audios released by the Ukrainian KGB. Even if true, then all you document is that some rebels thought some other rebels had shot down a plane. Which is pefectly reasonable. A plane had after all be shot down. There are no "lines" The regime has 100ds of enclaves within rebel areas. Its not a homogenous situation. It never is. The video from the Ukrainian Kgb supposedly comes from a police patrol in rebel controlled areas. The evidence, taken as an entire package, smells of wild fabrication. You know that all the Ukraine has to do is count its missiles and subject that to international verification. The same is not true of Russia as international verification could never conclude Russia did not have more missiles than any list provided. You are an amazingly slow learner Sammy.
jergul large member	Mon Jul 21 06:43:46 Hot Rod hehe, the west will probably end up blaming fudji before it finally moves to blaming the Ukraine. Rebels did it (turns out that was a completely insane theory)! Russia did it! Why not add Fudji to the list? I am certain either Russia or Ukraine did it. Most likely the Ukraine. But I am also certain we will find out soon enough. Its not the kind of thing that usually can be kept secret.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Jul 21 06:50:38 if jergul was german, the holocaust would not exist. this is amazingly stupid. I am done here. Just remember, jergul, that you are wrong, and everyone knows you are wrong.
McKobb Member	Mon Jul 21 06:57:28 You could probably find video evidence with a confession from the whole crew and jergul wouldn't believe it.
jergul large member	Mon Jul 21 06:58:46 Sammy "The rebels did it" Adams Nope, you are the only one proven wrong. The rebels did not shoot down the aircraft. Now it remains to be seen if Russia or the Ukraine shot it down. Its either the one, or the other. As I have said many, many times. So there is no way I could be wrong...unless you think Fudji is to blame of course. Which admittedly is as likely as the rebels shooting it down. But I am honestly glad you are done here. It saves my retyping posts. Your information retention skills seriously suck.
jergul large member	Mon Jul 21 07:04:09 Mckobb If the Ukrainian KGB released a video confession, or someone found one on youtube, facebook, or linked by tweeter, then I would most certainly say we should wait for the conclusions drawn by an international investigation. I am pretty unconvinced by the quality of evidence so far, particularly as we all know or should know...that much higher grade evidence will be forthcoming in an international investigation.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Mon Jul 21 09:37:45 MSNBC INTERVIEWS EYEWITNESS OF SHOOTDOWN OF MH 17 . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jecFzJ1sgIQ#t=44
murder Member	Mon Jul 21 09:47:51 "Now it remains to be seen if Russia or the Ukraine shot it down." No, it was the rebels. It was the rebels whether they did it or the Russians did it, because Russia simply can't afford to be responsible. As bad as it would be to have supplied the weapon system and training to rabble that used it to accidentally shoot down a passenger jet ... it would be 10 times worse if it was Russian forces operating inside Ukraine. It would prove Putin a liar about not being involved in the war. And it would expose Russian forces as incompetent. So yeah, the rebels did it.
jergul large member	Mon Jul 21 10:06:24 Murder I think it more likely than not that the truth will out on this occassion. It will be a messy truth in any event.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Mon Jul 21 10:06:34 Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity Submitted by Tyler Durden on 07/21/2014 09:45 -0400 Ukraine hasn’t said how it immediately knew rebels downed Malaysian plane, notes the Russian Foreign Ministry, as it unveils 10 awkward questions for Ukraine (and perhaps the US 'snap judgment') to answer about the MH17 disaster. However, what is perhaps more concerning for the hordes of finger-pointers is that: •RUSSIA HAS IMAGES OF UKRAINE DEPLOYING BUK ROCKETS IN EAST: IFX •RUSSIA: UKRAINE MOVED BUK NEAR REBELS IN DONETSK JULY 17: IFX •RUSSIA DETECTED UKRAINIAN FIGHTER JET PICK UP SPEED TOWARD MH17 Obviously, if there is proof that this is so, aside from CIA-created YouTube clips, these would deal another unpleasant blow to US foreign policy. The Russian defense ministry during its press conference which concluded minutes ago: Here is the full clip of the Russian ministry releasing its own forensic analysis of what happened to flight MH17 (with English translation). Russia wants to know why Ukraine moved its BUK missiles systems the day of the MH17 crash: •RUSSIAN GENERAL STAFF HAS SPACE IMAGES OF SECTORS OF UKRAINIAN FORCES' POSITIONS IN SOUTHEASTERN UKRAINE, INCLUDING BUK MISSILE LUNCH SITES 8 KILOMETERS FROM LUHANSK - RUSSIAN DEFENSE MINISTRY - interfax The day the Malaysian airliner crashed, the Ukrainian forces deployed an air defense group of three or four Buk-M1 missile batteries near Donetsk, Lt. Gen. Andrei Kartapolov, head of the Russian General Staff's Main Operations Department, told reporters on Monday. "These surface-to-air systems are capable of hitting targets at a distance of up to 35 kilometers at an altitude of 22 kilometers. For what purpose and against whom were these missile systems deployed? As is known, the militia has no aviation," he said. Russia has the flight paths of the Ukrainian fighters and MH17. Furthermore, it is asking the same question we asked last Thurday: •RUSSIA SAYS MH17 DIVERGED 14 KM FROM FLIGHT PATH NEAR DONETSK And wants to know why. The image (as seen in the presentation above) allegedly shows Ukraine fighter jets near MH17: As RT reports, “A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it’s distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km,” said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow on Monday. “[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane,” he stated. “The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification,” he added. “It’s equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up to 12km, up to 5km for sure.” The presence of the Ukrainian military jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated. And asks for US proof of their accusations: •RUSSIA SAYS U.S. SATELLITE FLEW OVER MH17 AT TIME IT WAS DOWNED... which would provide all the proof needed to show who is responsible - so why hasn't the US explained this or shown it? •RUSSIA ASKS U.S. FOR EVIDENCE ROCKET FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA •RUSSIA: NO U.S. PROOF THAT MISSILE FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA •DEFENCE MINISTRY SAYS RUSSIA DID NOT DELIVER ANY SA-11 BUK MISSILE SYSTEMS TO SEPARATISTS IN EASTERN UKRAINE "OR ANY OTHER WEAPONS" And went on to rebuke all the Twitter photos created by Maidan to 'prove' the BUKs were moving in Russian hands. Summing it all up, the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, has 10 questions for Ukraine (google translated) The global public expects a speedy and independent investigation into the causes of the disaster Malaysian aircraft in the airspace of Ukraine. In order to conduct an objective investigation of possible leadership of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation has ased ten questions to the Ukrainian side. 1. Ukrainian authorities immediately identified the militia as the perpetrators of the tragedy. What is the basis of such findings? 2. Could official Kiev to report all the details of using [BUKs] in a war zone? Most importantly - why these systems are deployed there, as the militia no planes? 3. What are the causes of inactivity of Ukrainian authorities on the formation of an international commission? When such a committee will work? 4. Are the armed forces of Ukraine international experts to present papers on accounting for missiles, air-to-air and ground-to-air ammo and anti-aircraft missiles? 5. Whether these funds objective control on the movement of the Ukrainian Air Force aircraft on the day of the tragedy brought international commission? 6. Why Ukrainian air traffic controllers allowed deviation of the route of the aircraft to the north side of the "anti-terrorist operation zone"? 7. Why was not completely closed to civilian aircraft airspace over the combat zone, especially because in this area there was no solid field of radar navigation? 8. Could official Kiev to comment on reports in the net, ostensibly on behalf of the Spanish air traffic controllers working in Ukraine, which shot down over the territory of Ukraine "Boeing" was accompanied by two Ukrainian military aircraft? 9. Why Security Service of Ukraine has begun without international representatives work with recordings of talks with Ukrainian crew dispatchers "Boeing" and Ukrainian radar data? 10. How were the lessons from previous similar disasters Russian Tu-154 in 2001 in the Black Sea? Then the leaders of Ukraine until the last minute denied any involvement of the Armed Forces of the country to the tragedy until irrefutable evidence showed no guilt official Kiev. Unfortunately, there has been no response by the Ukraine side to these questions so far. We expect that there will be some answers. * * * Needless to say, this places Ukraine and The US (as main protagonist of "finger pointer") in an awkward position as finally someone, somewhere will have to present some actual facts instead of merely continuing the "emotional appeals" propaganda. http://www...east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1
Sam Adams Member	Mon Jul 21 10:20:03 swordfail quoting tyler durden quoting russia today. yikes
murder Member	Mon Jul 21 10:23:41 "Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity" I see ... so Ukrainian forces were targeting Ukrainian military aircraft when they accidentally shot down a passenger jet in rebel controlled territory. lol :o)
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Mon Jul 21 10:28:50 they've already attacked their own troops(who refused to attack civilians) with gunships. as well they 've used UN marked helicopters.
murder Member	Mon Jul 21 10:29:05 "Murder: I think it more likely than not that the truth will out on this occassion. It will be a messy truth in any event." jergul: The truth? North Korea has a better chance in the 2018 World Cup. :o)
Dakyron Member	Mon Jul 21 10:29:10 Russian media lies more than Goebbels and Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf put together.
jergul large member	Mon Jul 21 10:33:41 Murder Its more like this: Intercepting fighters demonstrate Ukrainian air defence were reacting to a percieved incursion. All you need then is a BUK reacting independently to a percieved threat without the benefit of updated information.
Dakyron Member	Mon Jul 21 10:40:08 "Hey look at that plane being escorted by two of our fighters. Should we shoot it down?" "Yeah!"
jergul large member	Mon Jul 21 10:40:50 Daky If you are going to play the liars game, then you have to discount absolutely everything coming from the Ukrainian regime. It has the same culture as Russia and a hell of a motive to produce as much damning information it can fabricate. Murder Nah, its hard to hide. Both Russia and the US admit to sitting on vital information they will almost certain end up sharing with an investigation. Ultimately, this can be resolved simply be the Ukrainians counting their missiles and having that count verified. If the Ukraine has all its missiles, then Russia did it. Even if that turns out to be true, the investigation will be highly critical of a number of Ukrainian actions and inactions. We don't know the full scope of that yet. So lots of blame to go round in what sadly is not an unheard of event. State actors regularly shoot down civilian airliners by mistake.
Dakyron Member	Mon Jul 21 10:41:32 "If you are going to play the liars game, then you have to discount absolutely everything coming from the Ukrainian regime. " I discount everything coming from an "official" source from any side of the conflict and choose to only look at independent evidence.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Mon Jul 21 10:43:43 "I discount everything coming from an "official" source from any side of the conflict and choose to only look at independent evidence." please show the independent evidence?
jergul large member	Mon Jul 21 10:44:05 Daky Lulz. No. Its more "ZOMG a Russia aircraft do something" and independency ruled from there. We can be absolutely certain that whoever shot down the plane was acting on very imperfect information.
jergul large member	Mon Jul 21 10:45:17 Daky Then you have nothing except a horrible mistake and Ukrainian or Russian BUKs responsible for making it.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Jul 21 10:59:52 The retards of russia(tm) think that ukraine shot down the plane after it spent an hour traveling through their space unmolested, and precisely when it entered rebel space. If I was writing a book about retards, I couldnt make up a fictional retard any more retarded than this.
jergul large member	Mon Jul 21 11:06:13 Sammy It would be hard for BUK batteries to shoot it down outside of their engagment envelope. What you are doing here is typical of small minds. You are assuming monoliths; that somehow everything is controled by a single entity, be it God or State, everything has purpose and design. This case was very clearly a massive fuck-up at operator level. What happened before the blimp showed on the operator's targeting radar screen is completely irrelevant.
murder Member	Mon Jul 21 11:19:53 "Murder: Nah, its hard to hide. Both Russia and the US admit to sitting on vital information they will almost certain end up sharing with an investigation." jergul: I used to have a horse named "Truth". I traded it for something I liked better.
jergul large member	Mon Jul 21 11:33:58 Truthy then. We usually do get decent insight into events in the end.
Dakyron Member	Mon Jul 21 12:34:37 I think we have pretty decent insight into it now. You are just in denial.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Mon Jul 21 12:36:09 "I discount everything coming from an "official" source from any side of the conflict and choose to only look at independent evidence." please show the independent evidence?
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