Utopia Talk / Politics / Drill Baby Drill!

earthpig GTFO HOer	Sat Feb 25 14:34:29 http://checksandbalancesproject.org/dashboard/ "There is a lot of heated rhetoric in the national debate around energy development. Often times, the tone is vitriolic. And all too often, the spin from industry and politicians trumps facts and common sense. This leads to a poorly informed public and bad decision making on energy policy. For instance, did you know drilling in the U.S. is higher now than at any point since Reagan was in office? Here at the Checks and Balances Project, we think the facts matter. Our “Western Lands and Energy Dashboard” works to provide a counterweight to the rhetoric from oil and gas companies and politicians with deep financial ties with that industry. Click the icons below to learn the facts about the oil and gas industry and energy development on western public lands. You’ll notice we have not branded the analysis so you can use the information as you see fit, and links are provided to original sources." -The United States apparently has more active drill rigs than the entire rest of the world combined. -According to the US Bureau of Land Management (click the two links in the permits pdf) and my little number crunching, from 2001 when Bush stepped into office to now 54,544 approvals have been issued to allow drilling on Federal (eg, yours and mine) land. During that same period, alas, only 38,508 wells have started operation. -The largest spike in permits since 1985 was in the three years leading up to the recession. -2005-2008 was also the largest spike in actual drilling going back to 1985. -Adjusted for inflation, the largest spike in gas price at the pump was ALSO towards the end of this huge spike in issuing permits and drilling commencement. ( http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.html ) Someone want to bust out their economic knowledge and explain to me why there isn't quite the intuitive connection between drilling and price at the pump that one would expect? How is it that greater supply results in greater price? Is our demand really jumping by *that* much? I'm well aware of the conventional theories behind this shit, so no need to spout those theories if they do not match up with the data.
Honest Politician Member	Sat Feb 25 14:38:40 Greater consumption. How many TVs, sounds systems, computers, laptops, iPods did people have in their homes? Bigger population. The increased amount of flying that people do nowadays. Mobilizing the military for 3 wars and peacekeeping missions. You basically assumed demand stayed the same for the last 17 years.
Honest Politician Member	Sat Feb 25 14:39:22 By TVs and shit I meant consumption of oil and gas for electricity needs.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Sat Feb 25 14:43:07 "You basically assumed demand stayed the same for the last 17 years." Not really, but was there a massive spike in electronics manufacturing and use in 2006-08?
earthpig GTFO HOer	Sat Feb 25 14:43:52 Not all oil is created equal - how much crossover is there in oil that is refined for electricity generation / plastic manufacturing and car gas?
WilliamTheBastard Member	Sat Feb 25 14:47:44 "How many TVs, sounds systems, computers, laptops, iPods did people have in their homes? " shit, that was 1995, everyone had multiple tv's, sound systems, etc
Sam Adams Member	Sat Feb 25 14:53:17 so what is the point of these whining hippies? that drilling for oil is a bad thing?
earthpig GTFO HOer	Sat Feb 25 14:53:23 So, letting them do all the drilling they want seems to result in us getting fucked over with higher prices at the pump. Could it be that limiting their activities (something Obama is not doing) has the effect of forcing them to be more competitive (instead of unspoken pseudocollusionism, you create a cutthroat atmosphere between big oil firms - the way free market competition is supposed to be) thus driving our price at the pump down?
earthpig GTFO HOer	Sat Feb 25 14:55:03 "so what is the point of these whining hippies? that drilling for oil is a bad thing?" No, drilling for oil is a good thing. On the surface and in general, good on both Bush and Obama for letting the wells be struck. Drill baby Drill! was going on under Bush, and gas spiked leading up to the recession. Drill baby Drill! has been going on since Obama stepped into office, and we're seeing gas prices spike again.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Sat Feb 25 14:57:15 (I haven't really looked around at the conclusions drawn by that website, just used them as a handy place to find links to the data itself. Navigating the actual federal websites that publish the data is often a pain.)
Sam Adams Member	Sat Feb 25 14:57:27 http://www...s&product=oil&graph=production because we are using up the easily found oil. New fields are smaller and hard to reach. 1 new well now counts for less than it used to. Maybe we should switch to nukes... oh wait dumbass hippies won't let that happen.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Sat Feb 25 14:59:49 Pretty sure we are, correctly, on the verge of building new nuke plants again in spite of the Fukushima outcry. http://www...uclear-plant-construction.html And @ that chart - Good, we're on an upward swing again. Fewer permits issued, fewer wells struck, but production increasing. Again, this is counterintuitive.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Feb 25 15:03:54 lets see them working in spite of oil lobbyists and pathetic hippies and asseating lawyers, before we celebrate.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Sat Feb 25 15:07:14 "oil lobbyists and pathetic hippies" Environmentalist focused hippies are routinely ignored (1), but the oil lobby is quite powerful. And yet you defend their "corporate free speech" or whatever, even when it clearly is in direct conflict with the national interest (building new nuke plants and lowering price at the pump). (1) Sure they got a phyrric victory with Keystone - and have little political pull left for the near future as a result. Ditto for the internet hippies, who have little political capital left after the SOPA/PIPA blackout.
patom Member	Sat Feb 25 15:14:32 How many excuses for the spikes are neccessary? back in the early 90s there was a refinery fire in Louisiana. Resulting in the price of #2 FO and diesel fuel to jump $.60 a gallon in less than a month. That refinery didn't supply one drop of oil to the far northeast yet the price went up anyway. Iran says boo, and the price of crude soars A rifinery fire on the west coast recently the price soars My neighbors cat spilt a can of oil in my driveway the price soars It doesn't matter what they say, our politicians won't do anything.
Billah Member	Sat Feb 25 15:15:26 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1310622/ Naylin Paylin
Hot Rod Member	Sat Feb 25 15:18:17 "For instance, did you know drilling in the U.S. is higher now than at any point since Reagan was in office?" Did you know that is because of drilling on private lands? "-The United States apparently has more active drill rigs than the entire rest of the world combined. Did you know that is because of drilling on private lands? Drilling on public lands has been all but shut down and damned few permits are being issued. "How is it that greater supply results in greater price? Is our demand really jumping by *that* much?" There is no shortage of oil in the United States, as a matter of fact we have a sutplus due to the unusually mild winter. BUT, there is a 'world' shortage what with the increased needs of China and India. The surplus we imported in anticipation of a normal winter has been refined by US Oil companies and shipped overseas.
Average European Member	Sat Feb 25 15:19:26 Grow algae grow!
earthpig GTFO HOer	Sat Feb 25 15:24:38 "Did you know that is because of drilling on private lands? " Source? "Drilling on public lands has been all but shut down and damned few permits are being issued." Liar, see the (sourced) OP.
Honest Politician Member	Sat Feb 25 15:29:49 @ EP & WTB Don't take one single thing I said as the sole reason, take the sum of the components. America also imports oil which is subject to market prices, the reasons apply to increased demand in other countries too. Also what Sam said about the wells. Oil quality, iirc heavier hydrocarbons in crude have to be cracked to produce the amount of gasoline we need. There isn't enough that can be refined direct from crude oil. Also WTB, those things from 95 have been replaced how many times since? Still have your old CRT and brick cellphones?
Garyd Member	Sat Feb 25 15:30:38 Let me make this a simple as possible for the ignoramuses among you. Oil is an internationally sold commodity. In 1986 China used 2 billion barrels of oil a day and produced 3 now it produces five but uses nearly 8. India is in even worse shape in terms of production and Usage. While demand in the US is flat world wide it is growing by leaps and bounds with China predicted to surpass US usage by no later than 2040. And India won't be far behind. What you are seeing is straight supply and demand with the latter growing at a far more rapid rate than the former. We currently produce about 2 billion gallons more than we use but that is almost entirely due to economic stagnation in the US and Europe.
Honest Politician Member	Sat Feb 25 15:33:40 Links, garyd?
earthpig GTFO HOer	Sat Feb 25 15:35:14 I don't think any posts so far in the thread assumed a non-globalized economy. Everything you posted, I think, falls into the "it goes without saying" category. The 30 year trend you highlight would explain the gradual 30 year increase in price. It would not explain 3 year spikes and cliffs. If you missed that, you may be one of the "ignoramuses" in question.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Feb 25 15:40:09 "We all need to do a little research to find out about fact and myth: the Myth of Peak Oil and the Fact of Bakken and ANWR. Learn about the land [topography] of the massive Bakken Oil Fields that are turning Montana & North Dakota into America’s Energy Independence Salvation [even more prolific than ANWR] and at least 25 times bigger than originally thought. That drilling is all on private land in ND, as opposed to ANWR." http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/44720 "If you have listened to economic commentator Lou Dobbs and others recently you may have heard these points being made: This year overseas oil is in surplus. The contracts for this energy raw commodity were made well in advance, with expectations of a winter like last year and past averages. You would think that prices would drop. But, not so fast, my friend. Other markets are begging for energy. So, these excess oil supplies are being refined in the USA and then shipped, and sold overseas in Asian markets [and elsewhere] on the margin by oil companies in compliance with existing US Trade laws." MORE: http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/44720 same source / same article
WilliamTheBastard Member	Sat Feb 25 15:44:50 Judi Ann T. McLeod (born 1944) [1] is a Canadian journalist who operates the conservative Canadian website, Canada Free Press (CFP), which publishes news stories, features, and editorials. The main page of the website uses the title "Canada Free Press ...Because without America there is no Free World" and features a "Countdown until Obama leaves Office" Conservative writer Kevin Michael Grace has described McLeod's writing as that of an "emotionally incontinent ninth grader," [5] while Toronto Star columnist Antonia Zerbisias describes her as "eccentric" and the Canada Free Press as a "whacko news site." [6] rofl
WilliamTheBastard Member	Sat Feb 25 15:46:12 you just continue staying intellectually curious and critical roddy
Garyd Member	Sat Feb 25 15:51:23 Nation Master HP.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Feb 25 15:53:55 And I saw the interview with Lou Dobbs on Bill O'Reilly.
Garyd Member	Sat Feb 25 15:58:54 So did I HR. What O'Reilly doesn't know about economics in general and oil in particular would fill Several books.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Feb 25 16:00:17 No one knows everything, but Dobbs is a very good investigative reporter.
Garyd Member	Sat Feb 25 16:01:45 Agreed HR It's too bad O'reailly didn't give Dobbs a chance to explain the whole thing to him.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Feb 25 16:04:56 He rarely does, that is the only thing I have against him. He will ask a question, halfway through the answer he interrupts just as the guest is getting to the good part and then tells us his view. :(
WilliamTheBastard Member	Sat Feb 25 16:08:13 wow, where did oreilly lose you guys? it was him dumping palin, wasnt it?
Hot Rod Member	Sat Feb 25 16:17:40 5 Tips for saving on gas.
Garyd Member	Sat Feb 25 16:18:06 O'Reilly is a populist and always has been. His understanding of economics is hugely flawed at best.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Feb 25 16:18:29 http://www...ave-on-gas/?playlist_id=163197
WilliamTheBastard Member	Sat Feb 25 16:22:25 Yeah, it was palin lol. you guys used to splutter your coffee all over the keyboard when people said he was loud and abusive, then suddenly he did that to palin and now rod thinks hes rude... lol
Garyd Member	Sat Feb 25 16:24:03 Sorry I never saw the Palin Interview. It's his economic views I find annoying.
Garyd Member	Sat Feb 25 16:29:54 The spikes and cliffs are part of the business cycle which is not smooth unless flat lined.
Honest Politician Member	Sat Feb 25 16:59:05 Well I'm on my phone so haven't clicked links or looked at data but dollar weakness may be a factor also. I'll postsome more later since you don't seem to get it
garyd Member	Sat Feb 25 17:13:07 Yes HP the over all weakness of the dollar is part of it. But that is a product of Geitner's gamble that the economy will come back before inflation hits double digits.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Feb 25 18:45:43 The world isnt perfect, EP. Ideally we would have no lobbyists and the poor couldnt vote. Since the poor can vote, allowing their votes to be bought in large numbers, you need lobbyists to counteract that.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Sat Feb 25 23:26:19 ^ 285IQ
earthpig GTFO HOer	Sun Feb 26 13:46:02 According to some economist dude on npr, the weak link is processing into gasoline. The story he gave: You can apparently cheaply refine the oil into gas by doing some shit involving cheap natural gas, something the US suddenly has an abundance of. So, sweet, cheapest gas on the planet is now refined in the states (we're the metaphorical sweatshop) and this apparently started a few years ago with the fracking and whatnot. Except that now, overseas refineries can't compete. Some folks have the oil, some folks have the natural gas, few have both. We do. So, a bunch of overseas gas refineries are shutting down and some domestic refineries that can't use this method are sitting idle. Even as oil production reaches peak, world gas production is decreasing due to the American gas "sweatshop" undermining competition abroad.
Hot Rod Member	Sun Feb 26 17:03:08 ep, Have you become so much the liberal that you now refuse to admit a lack of knowledge? It is not a sin you know. Sat Feb 25 15:40:09
earthpig GTFO HOer	Sun Feb 26 17:22:33 I clearly indicated that there was shit I didn't understand in the OP. Posts like this one: 17:03:08 Are why I'm inclined not to bother clicking links in posts like this one: 15:40:09
Hot Rod Member	Sun Feb 26 17:31:19 I see. You don't click on sources that have proven you wrong, even when you ask for the link.
Hot Rod Member	Sun Feb 26 17:34:30 ep - I'm well aware of the conventional theories behind this shit, so no need to spout those theories if they do not match up with the data. I gave you an unconventional fact that you ignored. That is what people like Aers and ibty do.
ehcks Member	Sun Feb 26 19:47:56 They are ignoring supply/demand and are simply charging the maximum price they think they can get away with before a surge of alternate energy vehicles.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Sun Feb 26 23:37:49 roddy pretending that pretend 'whacko news sites' are real news sites lol
Hot Rod Member	Mon Feb 27 00:07:46 ehcks - before a surge of alternate energy vehicles. The viable technology is not there yet. They are just wasting taxpayer money.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Feb 27 01:00:05 Your head on my mantelpiece with a small hole in the top of the skull for a candle, with an expression of terror still on the dumb countenance, would look fucking excellent
Sam Adams Member	Mon Feb 27 01:39:00 "world gas production is decreasing due to the American gas "sweatshop" undermining competition abroad." this is wholesale npr bullshit. why do you listen to those uneducated hippies? How do they/you not know that the bulk of petroleum transferred internationally is still in the form of crude oil? Those giant supertankers that are all over the world? They carry crude, not refined gas!
earthpig GTFO HOer	Mon Feb 27 01:54:53 "why do you listen to those uneducated hippies?" Choices that I see are: a) Conservative talk radio. Savage Nation, Rush, and so on. b) NPR. c) Shitty Music.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Mon Feb 27 01:55:35 Why isn't there any conservative radio that doesn't require an IQ < 100 to listen?
Sam Adams Member	Mon Feb 27 02:04:00 d) look up facts for yourself on google and don't listen to retards? ewwwwwwwww facts!!!!!!!!!
earthpig GTFO HOer	Mon Feb 27 02:41:00 (Meanwhile, you've yet to refute the claims of the hippie guest.)
earthpig GTFO HOer	Mon Feb 27 02:52:17 Why are you picking a fight, anyways? You know I'm not as retarded as some others around here...
Hot Rod Member	Mon Feb 27 04:57:18 Moot point.
patom Member	Mon Feb 27 05:44:20 Sam, you live in the Boston area if I recall. All the tank farms around Boston, Providence NH, Portland, Me. are supplied by ship. Not by super tankers but the bulk of that gas and heating oil is comming from the Irving refinery in Saint John NB
Sam Adams Member	Mon Feb 27 11:42:16 I lived in Boston ya. Most of the gasoline transferred over long range around the US goes by pipeline. Most of the petroleum transferred in the world tends to be crude, with gasoline refined more locally. Its cheaper that way... you don't have to have seperate ships/tanks for grades of gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, lubricants, heater heavy oil, tar, etc etc. This is common knowledge EP. So how did your hippy get it wrong?
Dakyron Member	Mon Feb 27 14:17:34 "Someone want to bust out their economic knowledge and explain to me why there isn't quite the intuitive connection between drilling and price at the pump that one would expect? " Because the US produces only a small fraction of world supply and cannot even feed its own domestic demand, let alone contribute to an easing of the world's supply of oil. Isnt this common knowledge by now? Also, drilling takes years to produce anything, and just about every large scale production ready oil site in the world has been drilled. The only ones left are shit like shale oil, extreme deep water rigs, and potential oil wells in nature preserves. There are a few international sites in shithole countries that arent producing up to their potential(like Nigeria and Russia), but for the most part, there are only expensive or small wells left.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Mon Feb 27 14:53:21 @SA: "This is common knowledge EP. So how did your hippy get it wrong? " He didn't, you did. Your common knowledge is obsolete. The stuff in the OP should have been your first indicator. http://www...nited-states-export/52298812/1 "Measured in dollars, the nation is on pace this year to ship more gasoline, diesel, and jet fuel than any other single export, according to U.S. Census data going back to 1990. It will also be the first year in more than 60 that America has been a net exporter of these fuels. Just how big of a shift is this? A decade ago, fuel wasn't even among the top 25 exports. And for the last five years, America's top export was aircraft." http://money.cnn.com/2011/12/05/news/economy/gasoline_export/index.htm "The United States began exporting gas in late 2008. For decades prior, starting in 1960, the country used all the gas it produced here plus had to import gas from places in Europe." The great thing about NPR, unlike fox, I can usually listen and be confident that what I am hearing will be proven to be factual upon further investigation. @Daky - "Because the US produces only a small fraction of world supply and cannot even feed its own domestic demand, let alone contribute to an easing of the world's supply of oil." Wrong! See above.
Dakyron Member	Mon Feb 27 15:02:22 WTF? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum 19,497,950.00 BBL/day consumed in the US. 8,331,000 BBL/day produced by the US. Total worl production is ~ 84,000,000 BBL/day. The US produces about 1/10th of the world's oil. We consume about 1/4th of the world's oil. But hey... obviously we have a supply problem and not a demand problem, right?
CrownRoyal Member	Mon Feb 27 15:04:27 Daky is talking about oil, ep is talking about oil products, refined.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Mon Feb 27 15:21:40 Ya. There hasn't been a change in the system vis-a-vis crude in a while. No one is disagreeing with that. The change in the system is in refined products.
Dakyron Member	Mon Feb 27 15:22:20 gasoline is a local problem, IF you have cheap oil. We dont. Oil costs ~$110/barrel. So gas will be expensive. You cant have cheap gas and expensive oil, unless you are subsidizing on a massive scale.
Hot Rod Member	Mon Feb 27 15:34:48 ep - The great thing about NPR, unlike fox, I can usually listen and be confident that what I am hearing will be proven to be factual upon further investigation. What the heck is wrong with you man? I gave you the information about the US exporting the surplus fuel, after refining it, to other nations and I did it in this thread. Sat Feb 25 15:40:09 Furthermore, I first got the info from FOX when Bill O'Reilly interviewed Lou Dobbs who had done the investigative reporting.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Feb 27 15:36:27 Sun Feb 26 23:37:49 roddy pretending that pretend 'whacko news sites' are real news sites lol
earthpig GTFO HOer	Mon Feb 27 15:49:56 @HR: Every third post of yours includes "you liberals" and "typical liberal". Some also include links. So I just ignore them from time to time when I'm in a relaxing and chill mood and want to stay that way. I suspect Billah does the same with regards to posts by Renzo "Niggerlulz of the day" Marquez. Gotta be in a special kind of mood to be willing to risk a sudden urge to smash my head into a brick wall.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Feb 27 16:06:41 So you just showed us a link that showed your NPR theory, that the US created some secret hyper-efficient refining method that somehow increased prices instead of lowering them, is actually bullshit.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Mon Feb 27 16:20:03 Eh? I said recent events made an existing method more economically viable. Cracking, injection, whatever. It's economically irrelevant except when considering it's consequences. Economists should simply regard the shit scientists do as wizardry and refrain from trying to explain it else they risk looking foolish. Similarly: "the bulk of petroleum transferred internationally is still in the form of crude oil" Indeed, thinking this was relevant to the thread indicates that you should regard economics as wizardry.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Mon Feb 27 16:22:20 http://en....emical_analysis_and_production One of these methods is more economical in the United States than in China or India. Which one it is, and the chemistry behind it, is completely irrelevant as long as the scientists are acting in good faith and earning their pay.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Feb 27 18:19:57 It is very relevant. Refinded product price is a combination of both regional supply and demand (refined products) and global supply and demand (crude). You and the NPR seem to be confused by this.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Mon Feb 27 18:21:46 Not at all. It goes without saying. You seem to think that saying it makes it contradict what follows.
Hot Rod Member	Mon Feb 27 18:23:41 So, you *ask* for a source from folks and then ignore them? And then miracuosly just happen to come up with an esoteric bit of information, that few news outlets are talking about, that was in the response. Velly Interesting. ep - So I just ignore them from time to time when I'm in a relaxing and chill mood and want to stay that way. Hot Rod Member Sat Feb 25 15:18:17 "Did you know that is because of drilling on private lands?" "Drilling on public lands has been all but shut down and damned few permits are being issued." "There is no shortage of oil in the United States, as a matter of fact we have a sutplus due to the unusually mild winter. BUT, there is a 'world' shortage what with the increased needs of China and India. The surplus we imported in anticipation of a normal winter has been refined by US Oil companies and shipped overseas." earthpig GTFO HOer Sat Feb 25 15:24:38 "Did you know that is because of drilling on private lands? " Source? "Drilling on public lands has been all but shut down and damned few permits are being issued." Liar, see the (sourced) OP. Hot Rod Member Sat Feb 25 15:40:09 "We all need to do a little research to find out about fact and myth: the Myth of Peak Oil and the Fact of Bakken and ANWR. Learn about the land [topography] of the massive Bakken Oil Fields that are turning Montana & North Dakota into America’s Energy Independence Salvation [even more prolific than ANWR] and at least 25 times bigger than originally thought. That drilling is all on private land in ND, as opposed to ANWR." http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/44720 "If you have listened to economic commentator Lou Dobbs and others recently you may have heard these points being made: This year overseas oil is in surplus. The contracts for this energy raw commodity were made well in advance, with expectations of a winter like last year and past averages. You would think that prices would drop. But, not so fast, my friend. Other markets are begging for energy. So, these excess oil supplies are being refined in the USA and then shipped, and sold overseas in Asian markets [and elsewhere] on the margin by oil companies in compliance with existing US Trade laws." MORE: http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/44720 same source / same article Hot Rod Member Sat Feb 25 15:53:55 And I saw the interview with Lou Dobbs on Bill O'Reilly.
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