Utopia Talk / Politics / TC: Pingyin

Camaban The Overseer	Fri Nov 12 19:12:50 Why did you think that "pingyin" is a language that people speak?
ehcks Member	Fri Nov 12 19:18:31 I don't really know a thing about Chinese. Is this like claiming you speak Katakana, Kanji, or Romaji?
Camaban The Overseer	Fri Nov 12 19:21:42 Basically, yeah.
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Fri Nov 12 20:23:54 Has it ever occured to you that all TC does is troll anyways?
roland Member	Sat Nov 13 17:46:56 Isn't this already done to death? One doesn't need to learn pingyin to learn Chinese, not everyone learn English use IPAs.
Camaban The Overseer	Sat Nov 13 18:12:58 Maybe not, but it's part of the standard curriculum here and in China and has been for quite some time. Which is why I'm very interested to hear how he avoided it. Otherwise you've basically got students who are illiterate and unable to write until they learn the 2,500 most common characters.
Camaban The Overseer	Sat Nov 13 18:17:20 Plus, there's a mild difference between English and Chinese. Largely that reading a word at least gives you a clue as to how it's pronounced. Please point out one word in here that isn't covered by this. Reading a character.... Really doesn't. It's not a phonetic written language, which is why Pinyin was introduced in the first place. You might get the odd hint (I'm thinking that TC probably can't point out how these hints are conveyed without googling) but nothing remotely consistent.
miltonfriedman Member	Sat Nov 13 18:43:04 "One doesn't need to learn pingyin to learn Chinese, not everyone learn English use IPAs." Chinese is a tonal language and use characters - unlike English which utilizes the alphabets.
roland Member	Sat Nov 13 19:15:59 "Largely that reading a word at least gives you a clue as to how it's pronounced. Please point out one word in here that isn't covered by this. Reading a character.... Really doesn't. It's not a phonetic written language, which is why Pinyin was introduced in the first place." not entirely true, Chinese characters are made up of radicals which can be divided into the header and the root, characters with similar root tends to have the same/similar pronunciation.
miltonfriedman Member	Sat Nov 13 19:20:30 "not entirely true, Chinese characters are made up of radicals which can be divided into the header and the root, characters with similar root tends to have the same/similar pronunciation." Not true at all. Grass - tsao3; flower - hua1; orchid - lan2; They are share the same radical - completely different pronunciation.
roland Member	Sat Nov 13 19:40:32 Grass (http://z.about.com/d/chineseculture/1/0/k/V/grass.gif) contains the same radical as morning (http://0.tqn.com/d/mandarin/1/G/m/5/-/-/zao.gif) which pronunciate as zao3.
NeverWoods Member	Sat Nov 13 19:42:24 He said roots not radical, thats different in a way right?
Camaban The Overseer	Sat Nov 13 20:27:08 yeah, before we go off on tangents, what does this have to do with it being part of the standard chinese curriculum and that it has been for at least 30 or 40 years?
Camaban The Overseer	Sat Nov 13 20:32:07 also what does it have to do with pinyin (not ying) is not a language that people speak?
ehcks Member	Sat Nov 13 20:43:32 I speak text message shorthand?
roland Member	Sat Nov 13 21:01:00 "yeah, before we go off on tangents, what does this have to do with it being part of the standard chinese curriculum and that it has been for at least 30 or 40 years? " Not every school teach it, that is what, there are other ways.
Cloud Strife Member	Sat Nov 13 21:02:03 Pingyin sounds like some shitty internet thing.
Camaban The Overseer	Sat Nov 13 21:26:53 sure and it's likely that TC's school used one of these other ways..... If he was raised in Hong Kong or Taiwan. Do you think that's the case? Keeping in mind that it gets better: he spoke as if it was a separate language that people speak. Not simply another way of writing mandarin.
roland Member	Sun Nov 14 01:36:39 God knows, he doesn't talk about this side of him, for all we know, he could be anything from OBC to someone like Alejandro Cao de Benos.
miltonfriedman Member	Sun Nov 14 11:03:20 Straight (zheng4) and slant (wai1) have the same root. In any case, since Chinkdren constantly talks about how China should take over Taiwan and that Taiwan belongs to China, then there is no way that he identifies himself with Taiwan or HK.
Camaban The Overseer	Sun Nov 14 16:58:24 Roland: The fairly natural mistake you're making in your assumptions is that like most languages, the Chinese written language was based off the spoken language. Not true. Up until the traditional-simplified split in the 50's Chinese characters were the same whatever language you spoke. IE: A person who spoke Mandarin and Cantonese couldn't speak to each other, but they could write to each other. To a lesser extent, so could a Chinese person and a Japanese person (as the Japanese adopted a large number of Chinese characters) So yes, you might get some that contain a clue (and it's not going to be more than a clue) those are too few and far between to be consistently useful. An example of this occurring is horse/ma3 (root character) and the question character ma, which is the horse plus the character for mouth to signify that something is being asked or said. However, this similarity doesn't give a hint as to what tone that word is meant to be spoken in. Tone is vital when speaking Chinese. Tone is what separates mother from horse (ma1 and ma3) it's what separates sweet (I think it's tang2 - I can't remember) from hot (tang4) which lesson was bought home to me when my wife's niece warned me that some soup was very hot, but I thought she said very sweet. Tang1 is soup. And that's just the differences that one syllable has - There are about 400 syllables BEFORE taking tone into account (approx 1,200 after taking tone into account) However, again, this takes us away from that about the only major Chinese-speaking place in the world that doesn't use something akin to Pinyin (Taiwan has its own character set) is Hong Kong. If he was educated in the mainland, he learnt pinyin. At the very least, he should know that it's a writing system, and not a distinct spoken language.
The Children Member	Sun Nov 14 17:21:11 Will you stop speculating already. Youre in denial, clown. I do not owe you any explanation.
Camaban The Overseer	Sun Nov 14 17:54:42 Just like you're not Chinese. Also like I don't have to stop putting up evidence that you're not Chinese just because you tell me to.
Camaban The Overseer	Sun Nov 14 17:55:26 I really would be interested to hear your explanation as to why you think pinGyin is a language though. I know I won't get it, because the real answer is "I'm not Chinese" but still. It would be fun to hear you try.
Nimatzo Member	Sun Nov 14 19:06:21 Dam TC, I think you are a loser and everything, but allowing Camaban to manhandle you like this for so long? He has basically been raping you at will and you have just taken it! LOL you are getting destroyed son! Fucking man up, provide evidence or admit defeat. Or of course the third option keep getting anal raped by some Australian dude.
Camaban The Overseer	Tue Nov 16 17:39:40 Apparently chose option three.
Muslim Member	Tue Nov 16 22:16:58 Again, who said anything about me not speaking Chinese. That was only your assumption and nothing more than that, clown.
Firestorm Phoenix Member	Tue Nov 16 22:21:12 ^^^Oops!
Firestorm Phoenix Member	Tue Nov 16 22:42:21 Change handle next time.
Camaban The Overseer	Tue Nov 16 23:01:45 Y'know, that would make sense. A lot of sense.
Madc0w Member	Wed Nov 17 00:03:09 It can't be...
NeverWoods Member	Wed Nov 17 07:17:24 Don't be trolled.
NeverWoods Member	Sun Nov 21 15:50:25 Cama: How hard is it to learn Pingyin?
Camaban The Overseer	Sun Nov 21 15:54:10 Impossible, as it doesn't exist. Pinyin, however: If you can read English, you're 90% of the way there. The main differences stem from that it's based on European phonetics, not English ones. However, these differences are minor. After that, the main gotchas are because Chinese is a really unnatural language to an English speaker. The main problem that students had wasn't remembering what letters made up a particular sound but that English isn't a tonal language.
Camaban The Overseer	Sun Nov 21 15:55:22 I said pingyin because that was how TC spelt it while he was going on about not everyone *speaking* it. So it was a way of further highlighting his lack of knowledge on a very basic subject.
NeverWoods Member	Sun Nov 21 15:58:51 Ok, thanks for the answer. Thinking about taking a course or 2, might come useful.
Camaban The Overseer	Sun Nov 21 16:02:14 I enjoyed it. It was one of the few subjects I did enjoy. It's just a pity that I had to choose between it and Cisco. Also, I don't know about there, but here if I'd done two semesters and felt like taking a year off for intensive study I could have done an exchange learning program in Qingdao which was covered by HECS (Our student loan program) and Austudy (Our student dole program) With Austudy giving about the same as a reasonable full time income over there. As it is we're planning a month of intensive study for me over there this year/next year. However it's worth mentioning that Pinyin would be the least of your problems.
miltonfriedman Member	Mon Nov 22 01:10:23 "what separates sweet (I think it's tang2 - I can't remember)" tang2 is sugar sweet is tian2
roland Member	Mon Nov 22 01:42:37 "Roland: The fairly natural mistake you're making in your assumptions is that like most languages, the Chinese written language was based off the spoken language. Not true. Up until the traditional-simplified split in the 50's Chinese characters were the same whatever language you spoke. IE: A person who spoke Mandarin and Cantonese couldn't speak to each other, but they could write to each other. To a lesser extent, so could a Chinese person and a Japanese person (as the Japanese adopted a large number of Chinese characters)" A. I didn't say the Chinese written language was based off the spoken language, I said words that created with similar radicals tends to be a homophone or something similar. This is not a golden rule, but it is a rather good heuristic for learning new words. Using your example: In Mandarin: Horse: ma3 Mother: ma1 In Cantonese: Horse: ma5 Mother: ma1 Both words contain the radical of horse, while there are variations in how these words sound like in Mandarin and Cantonese, the similarity of how the two words sounded in the same dialect should be noted. B. The phenomenon you described on why a person who spoke Mandarin and Cantonese couldn't speak to each other, but they could write to each other has to do with how the education system. People who are speaking a dialect at home, and learning to read and write in standardised Chinese. So, the vocabulary and grammer are standardised despite the difference they may sounded in different dialect. The difference didn't come from how the words are written in, whether it is traditional, or similified. "So yes, you might get some that contain a clue (and it's not going to be more than a clue) those are too few and far between to be consistently useful." I think that is nonsense, learning by association is one of ways that we human learn about new things. There are about a thousands Chinese characters that are commonly used in people's daily life, who is going to memorised their pinyin characters by heart? Just like no one is going to remember IPA symbols of any words by heart once you have a grasp of the pronouncation of the word.
Camaban The Overseer	Mon Nov 22 03:50:17 >>"what separates sweet (I think it's tang2 - I can't remember)" tang2 is sugar sweet is tian2 << Ah. That makes it make more sense. Roland: Great subject for discussion, but what does that have to do with the fact that Pinyin is part of the standard mainland Chinese curriculum and has been for at least three to four decades? Plus, you seem to be ignoring that the similarities don't convey which tone should be used. Tone is vital. >>who is going to memorised their pinyin characters by heart? << Everyone from preschool onwards. Once again: It's part of the standard curriculum. It has been for decades. The only Chinese people I've come across anywhere who don't know it (obviously these are all English speakers, but... TC is an English speaker) are Taiwanese or Hong Kongers. Plus, it's 2,000 characters make up 99% of what you see in day-to-day life. 500 make up the other 1%. I wish it was only a thousand characters.
Camaban The Overseer	Mon Nov 22 03:53:20 Oh, and the other difference between that and IPA? IPA isn't part of the standard curriculum in most English speaking countries. Once again (and when you reply, you're going to have to address this) Pinyin is. The only people who learn IPA are people learning English as a second language. Pinyin is part of the standard curriculum for native Chinese speakers as well as those learning it as a second language. To sum up: Pinyin: Part of standard curriculum for mainland Chinese as well as second language learners. IPA: Only part of standard curriculum for second language learners.
The Children Member	Mon Nov 22 03:56:50 Look at them roundeyes trying to learn Chinese. Hahaha
Nekran Member	Mon Nov 22 03:57:20 We all know you're a dutch HO troll, dude. Get over yourself.
The Children Member	Mon Nov 22 03:58:42 Oh yes, I live in Bonn and I study Brazilian language and culture. Hahaha@retard.
Camaban The Overseer	Mon Nov 22 04:10:43 >>Look at them roundeyes trying to learn Chinese. Hahaha << And yet every person in this thread has demonstrated more knowledge than you :P Tell me: Why did you think that pin(g)yin is a spoken language?
roland Member	Mon Nov 22 04:20:16 "Roland: Great subject for discussion, but what does that have to do with the fact that Pinyin is part of the standard mainland Chinese curriculum and has been for at least three to four decades?" Mandarin, is the offical language of the country since its founding, yet just over half of the country can communicate with it. What do you think about the Chinese curriculum in some underdeveloped schools outside the big cities. Tone is important, but if you are sayin
roland Member	Mon Nov 22 04:24:25 "Tone is important, but there are only 4 of them for each vowel, if you understand the context, you can probably guess the word being used, but if you can't even get the basic vowel, you got no chance understanding what word are being used.
Camaban The Overseer	Mon Nov 22 04:27:13 >>Mandarin, is the offical language of the country since its founding, yet just over half of the country can communicate with it. What do you think about the Chinese curriculum in some underdeveloped schools outside the big cities. << What do you think is more likely? That TC came from a poor underdeveloped area like this in a family that did relatively well, got an education without learning Mandarin, then migrated to the UK. Or that he's simply not Chinese. Which? Plus, if he was from one of these areas and had an education or been from a family doing well enough to escape, then he'd have been even more likely to have covered it. >>"Tone is important, but there are only 4 of them for each vowel, if you understand the context, you can probably guess the word being used, but if you can't even get the basic vowel, you got no chance understanding what word are being used. << My experience has been that if you screw up the tones, good luck being understood. It's not enough to simply get the vowels out and hope they'll understand the context.
Camaban The Overseer	Mon Nov 22 04:28:04 Plus, there's five if you count the neutral tone (IE: ma - a question particle)
roland Member	Mon Nov 22 04:35:48 "What do you think is more likely? " maybe he is just muslim trolling under TC's name, or OBC. I don't think he ever been to China, his ignorant of the land is clearly shown in many previous discussions. Which is weird, because the old TC from way back did answer some questions about Chinese from other posters.
Camaban The Overseer	Mon Nov 22 04:44:23 >>maybe he is just muslim trolling under TC's name, or OBC<< Which while I don't really think is true, I'll rate as much more likely. >>I don't think he ever been to China, his ignorant of the land is clearly shown in many previous discussions. << Pretty much. Besides, if I was that obsessed with my home country, and was disgusted at the country I lived in, I doubt I'd have been as resistant to the idea of going back there to live as he is. >>Which is weird, because the old TC from way back did answer some questions about Chinese from other posters. << Could be a different person, might have had a Chinese friend who's since abandoned him, might have simply used Google. This is why my initial test to him was a grammatical one. The sort of thing a native speaker of a language can correct without thinking, but that you can't search for without having a decent idea of what is being said. And seriously, with what I asked. If you can read English, you can sound out the words. They were very, very simple.
Camaban The Overseer	Mon Nov 22 04:48:05 Really though, when he said he didn't speak Pingyin, that was a better answer than I could have hoped for. He actually thought it was a different language to Mandarin.
Camaban The Overseer	Tue Nov 23 04:11:13 Hm, he's gone quiet again.
Camaban The Overseer	Tue Nov 23 14:56:06 The sad thing is that with all this chasing, I'd set myself up for what should have been an irresistible pwnage if I was wrong. What do we get instead? Silence and tear-strewn pleas to pwease not ask qwestions as they make TC sad.
Canadian Member	Tue Nov 23 16:39:08 It's a pity that TC is so ronery.
Camaban The Overseer	Thu Nov 25 18:09:37 Yea thats right. Cat got your tongue now huh clown. lol.
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