Utopia Talk / Politics / Quote of The Day

Hot Rod Member	Wed Oct 13 08:02:33 "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." ~Alexis de Tocqueville
Memory Lane Member	Wed Oct 13 08:16:28 "I am not going to research every OP, to learn every esoteric detail about the subject, before posting." -Hot Rod
Hot Rod Member	Wed Oct 13 08:20:00 Why should I? The liberals certainly don't and even when we do and present irrefutable evidence you people still deny it. You egos are so pathetic you cannot ever admit you are wrong, even about the tiniest point. ~Hot Rod
Jesse Malcolm Barack Member	Wed Oct 13 08:48:00 Dude you dare say that after going off on me for posting a true story because you said some shizz like "but you didnt know it was true even though it was all over the frigging news". You expected me to turn into some damn private investigator so why dont you hold yourself to the same damn standards
miltonfriedman Member	Wed Oct 13 09:05:50 memory lane, thanks for another great quote from retard rod. Do you have a link to the quote?
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Wed Oct 13 21:18:25 I'm pretty sure by now all governments realize the people in as a group are dumb enough to be bribed with tax dollars. I wish more people would stand up and say 'fuck you, we don't want you to try bribing us with our money, we want to steal less of it from us instead'.
Hot Rod Member	Wed Oct 13 21:22:48 Cthulhu, isn't that what The Tea Party is all about?
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Wed Oct 13 21:25:14 I have no idea honestly. Since I don't live in the states, I never bothered to read up on the tea party.
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Wed Oct 13 21:26:52 I do know however that the Canadian government is horrendous for buying votes with tax revenue. Though to be honest, it works well up here. They get billions in revenue from the Alberta oil sector, and then spend most of it in Ontario and Quebec, since all you need is the support of those two provinces to gain a majority government.
Hot Rod Member	Wed Oct 13 21:44:37 And that is exactly why they want to do away with our Electoral College.
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Wed Oct 13 22:06:34 well, in the case of Canada, most of our population is situated in two provinced, and due to some very fucked up laws, the province of Quebec is guaranteed 1/3 of the seats at the federal level regardless of population, though they can have more if their population is high enough. Some stupid crap about 'preserving french culture'. Sometime I wish the assholes would just separate. I have no idea whatsoever what the electoral college does.
Hot Rod Member	Wed Oct 13 23:45:52 In the US most of our population is on the two Coasts. If we were strictly democratic they would decide all of The Presidential Elections. Each state votes separately for the President and depending on how they vote and depending on a variety of rules determines each states number of seats on the electoral college. They vote after the election is over and done with, but knowing their rules the Media knows who won early. It keeps the smaller states from being steamrolled by the more populous States. That is why on occasion the losing candidate has a greater popular vote. If you want to check it out here is a link. It is kind of interesting. http://en....al_College_%28United_States%29
The UP Archivist Member	Thu Oct 14 08:16:52 Miltonfriedman, http://www...hread?id=politics&thread=22326
roland Member	Thu Oct 14 08:20:46 "isn't that what The Tea Party is all about? " no
Hot Rod Member	Thu Oct 14 08:27:38 What is The Tea Party all about then?
Donk Pooper Member	Thu Oct 14 08:33:11 Racism, xenophobia, violence, greed, fear etc.
Nimatzo Member	Thu Oct 14 08:40:24 "Hot Rod died" -Hot Rods "brother"
Hot Rod Member	Thu Oct 14 08:41:14 "Now, we Americans understand freedom. We have earned it, we have lived for it, and we have died for it. This nation and it's people are freedom's model in a searching world. We can be freedom's missionaries in a doubting world. But, ladies and gentlemen, first we must renew freedom's mission in our own hearts and in our own homes." ~Barry Goldwater
Donk Pooper Member	Thu Oct 14 08:43:11 You clearly have no understanding of the word xenophobia, filthy foreigner. Let me educate you with a quote minus any cherry picking: Xenophobia From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Crystal Clear app kedit.svg This article may need to be rewritten entirely to comply with Wikipedia's quality standards. You can help. The discussion page may contain suggestions. (August 2010) Part of a series of articles on Discrimination General forms Ableism · Ageism · Caste Classism · Colorism · Genism Heightism · Linguicism · Lookism Mentalism · Racism · Rankism Religious · Sexism · Sexualism Sizeism · Speciesism · Weightism Xenophobia Specific forms [show]Social Adultism · Androphobia Anti-Albinism Anti-homelessness Anti-intellectualism Anti-Masonry · Antisemitism Audism · Biphobia · Childism Cronyism · Elitism (academic) Ephebiphobia · Gerontophobia · Gynophobia Heteronormativity · Heterophobia Heterosexism · Homophobia · Homonegativity Leprosy stigma · Lesbophobia Misandry · Misanthropy Misogyny · Nepotism · Pediaphobia Reverse discrimination · Transphobia Triumphalism [show]Ethnic National Albanian · American · Arab Armenian · Brahmin · British · Canadian Catalan · Chilean · Chinese English · Estonia · European · French Gentiles · German · Haitian · Hispanic Igbo · Indian · Iranian · Irish · Israel Italian · Japanese · Jewish · Korean Malay · Manchu · Mexican Polish · Portuguese · Quebec · Roma Romanian · Russian · Scottish Serbian · Slavs · Soviets Turkish · Ukrainian [show]Religious Ahmadiyya · Atheism Bahá'í · Catholicism Christianity · Hinduism · Islam Judaism 1 2 Mormonism · Neopaganism New religious movements Protestantism Shi'a Islam · Zoroastrianism Manifestations Blood libel · Eliminationism Ethnic cleansing · Ethnocide Employment · Mortgage Gay bashing Gendercide · Genocide Hate crime · Hate speech Lynching · Pogrom · Police brutality · Religious persecution · Slavery Policies Discriminatory Age/Racial/Religious/Sex segregation Apartheid · Ethnocracy Ghetto benches · Jewish quota Jim Crow laws · Internment Numerus clausus · Nuremberg Laws MSM blood donor controversy Racial quota Redlining · Sodomy law Anti-discriminatory Civil rights · Desegregation Emancipation · Equal opportunity Integration · Universal access Related Affirmative action All-women shortlists Black Economic Empowerment (BEE) Employment equity (Canada) Forced busing (U.S.) Individual and group rights Reparation · Reservation (India) International law CDE · CEDAW · CERD · CRPD · ILO C100 · ILO C111 · ILO C169 · Protocol No. 12 ECHR Other forms Adultcentrism · Afrocentrism Americentrism · Androcentrism Anthropocentrism · Black supremacy Chronocentrism · Economic Ethnocentrism · Eurocentrism Genetic · Gynocentrism · Indigenism Jingoism · Sinocentrism White supremacy · Xenocentrism Related topics Abuse · Bigotry · Diversity · Eugenics Hatred · Oppression Political correctness · Prejudice Religious intolerance · Tolerance Portal-puzzle.svg Discrimination portal This box: view â?¢ talk â?¢ edit Xenophobia is an irrational, deep-rooted fear of or antipathy towards foreigners.[1] It comes from the Greek words ξένοÏ? (xenos), meaning "stranger," "foreigner" and Ï?Ï?βοÏ? (phobos), meaning "fear."[2] Xenophobia can manifest itself in many ways involving the relations and perceptions of an ingroup towards an outgroup, including a fear of losing identity, suspicion of its activities, aggression, and desire to eliminate its presence to secure a presumed purity.[3] Xenophobia can also be exhibited in the form of an "uncritical exaltation of another culture" in which a culture is ascribed "an unreal, stereotyped and exotic quality".[4] Contents [hide] * 1 Definitions * 2 External links * 3 See also * 4 References [edit] Definitions Dictionary definitions of xenophobia include: deep-rooted antipathy towards foreigners (Oxford English Dictionary; OED), unreasonable fear or hatred of the unfamiliar, especially people of other races (Webster's)[5] The Dictionary of Psychology defines it as "a fear of strangers".[6] As defined by the OED, it can mean a fear of or aversion to, not only persons from other countries, but other cultures, subcultures and subsets of belief systems; in short, anyone who meets any list of criteria about their origin, religion, personal beliefs, habits, language, orientations, or any other criteria. While some will state that the "target" group is a set of persons not accepted by the society, in reality only the phobic person need hold the belief that the target group is not (or should not be) accepted by society. While the phobic person is aware of the aversion (even hatred) of the target group, they may not identify it or accept it as a fear. A clinical definition is:[clarification needed] An irrational fear of members of a certain race foreign to one's own, often adjunct and secondary to Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Also: One of the attitude groupings characteristic of The Authoritarian Personality.[7] A Vietnam veteran witnessed Viet Cong skinning his fellow soldiers alive. He developed hatred of people with Mongol eyelids. In both cases, the xenophobia was adjunct to PTSD.[8] A xenophobic person has to genuinely think or believe at some level that the target is in fact a foreigner. This arguably separates xenophobia from racism and ordinary prejudice in that someone of a different race does not necessarily have to be of a different nationality. In various contexts, the terms "xenophobia" and "racism" seem to be used interchangeably, though they can have wholly different meanings (xenophobia can be based on various aspects, racism being based solely on race ethnicity and ancestry). Xenophobia can also be directed simply to anyone outside of a culture, not necessarily one particular race or people. Xenophobia has two main objects: The first is a population group present within a society that is not considered part of that society. Often they are recent immigrants, but xenophobia may be directed against a group which has been present for centuries, or became part of this society through conquest and territorial expansion. This form of xenophobia can elicit or facilitate hostile and violent reactions, such as mass expulsion of immigrants, pogroms or in other cases, genocide. The second form of xenophobia is primarily cultural, and the objects of the phobia are cultural elements which are considered alien. All cultures are subject to external influences, but cultural xenophobia is often narrowly directed, for instance, at foreign loan words in a national language. It rarely leads to aggression against individual persons, but can result in political campaigns for cultural or linguistic purification. In addition, entire xenophobic societies tend not to be open to interactions from anything "outside" themselves, resulting in an isolationism that can further xenophobia. [edit] External links * Xenophoblog - Provides news, information and resources on the ever-growing xenophobia crisis and related issues. [edit] See also * Discrimination * List of phobias * List of xenophobic terms * Nativism * Nationalism * Racism * Xenophily * Xenocentrism [edit] References 1. ^ Guido Bolaffi. Dictionary of race, ethnicity and culture. SAGE Publications Ltd., 2003. Pp. 331. 2. ^ Oxford Standard English Dictionary' (OED). Oxford Press, 2004, CDROM version. 3. ^ Guido Bolaffi. Dictionary of race, ethnicity and culture. SAGE Publications Ltd., 2003. Pp. 332. 4. ^ Guido Bolaffi. Dictionary of race, ethnicity and culture. SAGE Publications Ltd., 2003. Pp. 332. 5. ^ Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary, Dorset and Baber, Simon and Schuster, 1983 6. ^ Dictionary of Psychology, Chapman, Dell Publishing, 1975 fifth printing 1979. 7. ^ http://cou...0/pdf/Lect03Psychoanalysis.pdf 8. ^ 17 U. Puget Sound L. Rev. 381 (1993-1994), From Agoraphobia to Xenophobia: Phobias and Other Anxiety Disorders under the Americans with Disabilities Act, John M. Casey
Hot Rod Member	Thu Oct 14 08:53:04 You forgot Conservatism you piss ant xenophobe.
Donk Pooper Member	Thu Oct 14 08:55:40 i am sorry filthy foreigner but here you go. No liberal cherry picking by the way Conservatism From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search This article is about conservatism as a political and social philosophy. For other uses, see Conservatism (disambiguation). This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. Please improve this article if you can. The talk page may contain suggestions. (January 2010) Part of a series on Conservatism Schools[show] Cultural conservatism Economic conservatism · Fiscal conservatism · Green conservatism Liberal conservatism · Libertarian conservatism National conservatism · Neoconservatism Paleoconservatism · Social conservatism Traditionalist conservatism Concepts[show] Tradition Custom Natural Law Family Values Social Order Social Hierarchy Private Property People[show] Henry St John Edmund Burke · John Reeves Joseph de Maistre · Louis Bonald François Chateaubriand Adam Müller · Juan Donoso Cortés Sir Robert Peel · Benjamin Disraeli Sir John A. Macdonald Sir George-Ã?tienne Cartier Otto von Bismarck · Lord Salisbury Sir Winston Churchill Carl Schmitt · Leo Strauss Michael Oakeshott Sir Robert Menzies · Russell Kirk William F. Buckley, Jr. Margaret Thatcher · Roger Scruton Organizations[show] Conservative parties International Democrat Union European People's Party European Democrats AECR Religious[show] Christian Right Jewish right Hindu Nationalism Traditionalist Catholics Islamism National variants[show] Australia · British Canada · China Colombia · Germany United States Related topics[show] Reactionary · Right-wing politics Toryism · Carlism · Aristocracy Capitalism · Neo-liberalism Thatcherism 'And' theory of conservatism Conservative Revolutionary movement Tea Party movement Politics Portal v â?¢ d â?¢ e Conservatism (Latin: conservare, "to preserve")[1] is a political and social philosophy that promotes the maintenance of traditional institutions and supports minimal and gradual change in society. Some conservatives seek to preserve things as they are, emphasizing stability and continuity, while others oppose modernism and seek a return to "the way things were."[2][3] The first established use of the term in a political context was by François-René de Chateaubriand in 1819, following the French Revolution.[4] The term has since been used to describe a wide range of views. Political science often credits British politician Edmund Burke with many of the ideas now called conservative.[5] According to Hailsham, a former chairman of the British Conservative Party, "Conservatism is not so much a philosophy as an attitude, a constant force, performing a timeless function in the development of a free society, and corresponding to a deep and permanent requirement of human nature itself."[6] Robert Eccleshall states, "It is the persistent image of society as a command structure in which the responsibilities of leadership can be exercised within the framework of a strong state manifested in divine-right royalism ... that distinguishes English conservatism from rival ideologies."[7] Conservative political parties include the Liberal Democratic Party in Japan, the Republican Party in the United States, the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom, the Liberal Party of Australia, the Kuomintang of the Republic of China (Taiwan), the Conservative Party of Canada, the Pakistan Muslim League in Pakistan, and the Bharatiya Janata Party in India. Contents [hide] * 1 Development of Western conservatism o 1.1 English conservatism o 1.2 French conservatism * 2 Variants o 2.1 Liberal conservatism o 2.2 Conservative liberalism o 2.3 Libertarian conservatism o 2.4 Fiscal conservatism o 2.5 Green conservatism o 2.6 Cultural and social conservatism o 2.7 Religious conservatism * 3 Conservatism in different countries o 3.1 Belgium o 3.2 Canada o 3.3 Colombia o 3.4 Denmark o 3.5 Finland o 3.6 France o 3.7 Greece o 3.8 Iceland o 3.9 Luxembourg o 3.10 Norway o 3.11 Sweden o 3.12 United Kingdom o 3.13 United States * 4 Psychology * 5 Notes * 6 References o 6.1 Further reading [edit] Development of Western conservatism [edit] English conservatism English conservatism, which was called Toryism, emerged during the Restoration (1660â??1688). It supported a hierarchical society with a monarch who ruled by divine right. However the Glorious Revolution (1688), which established constitutional government, led to a reformulation of Toryism which now considered sovereignty vested in the three estates of Crown, Lords, and Commons.[8] According to conservative historians, Richard Hooker was the founding father of conservatism, the Marquess of Halifax is commended for his pragmatism, David Hume is commended for his conservative mistrust of rationalism in politics, and Edmund Burke is considered the leading early theorist. They have, however, been accused of selectivity in choosing writers who present a moderate and defensible view of conservatism. For example, Hooker lived before the emergence of conservatism, Halifax did not belong to any party, Hume was not involved in politics, and Burke was a Whig. In the 19th century, Conservatives rejected Burke because of his defense of Catholic emancipation, and found inspiration in Bolingbroke instead. John Reeves, who wrote a Tory response to the French Revolution, is ignored.[9] Conservatives also objected to Burke's support of the American Revolution, which the Tory Samuel Johnson, for example, attacked in "Taxation No Tyranny". Conservatism developed in Restoration England from royalism. Royalists supported absolute monarchy, arguing that the sovereign governed by divine right. They opposed the theory that sovereignty derived from the people, the authority of parliament and freedom of religion. Robert Filmerâ??s Patriarcha: or the Natural Power of Kings, which had been written before the English Civil War, became accepted as the statement of their doctrine. Following the Glorious Revolution of 1688, the conservatives, known as Tories, accepted that the three estates of Crown, Lords, and Commons held sovereignty jointly.[10] However Toryism became marginalized during the long period of Whig ascendency.[11] The party, which was renamed the Conservative Party in the 1830s, returned as a major political force after becoming home to both paternalistic aristocrats and free market capitalists in an uneasy alliance.[12] Edmund Burke was the private secretary to the Marquis of Rockingham and official pamphlateer to the Rockingham branch of the Whig Party.[13] Together with the Tories, they were the conservatives in the late 18th century United Kingdom.[14] Burke's views were a mixture of liberal and conservative. He supported the American Revolution but abhored the violence of the French Revolution. He accepted the liberal ideals of private property and the economics of Adam Smith, but thought that economics should be kept subordinate to the conservative social ethic, that capitalism should be subordinate to the medieval social tradition and that the business class should be subordinate to aristocracy.[15] He insisted on standards of honor derived from the medieval aristocratic tradition, and saw the aristocracy as the nation's natural leaders.[16] That meant limits on the powers of the Crown, since he found the institutions of Parliament to be better informed than commissions appointed by the executive.[17] He favored an established church, but allowed for a degree of religious toleration.[18] Burke justified the social order on the basis of tradition: tradition represented the wisdom of the species and he valued community and social harmony over social reforms.[19] Edmund Burke (1729â??1797) In the 19th century, conflict between wealthy businessmen and the aristocracy split the British conservative movement, with the aristocracy calling for a return to medieval ideas while the business classes called for laissez-faire capitalism.[20] Although conservatives opposed attempts to allow greater representation of the middle class in parliament, in 1834 they conceded that electoral reform could not be reversed and promised to support further reforms so long as they did not erode the institutions of church and state. These new principles were presented in the Tamworth Manifesto which is considered by historians to be the basic statement of the beliefs of the new Conservative Party.[21] Some conservatives lamented the passing of a pastoral world where the ethos of noblesse oblige had promoted respect from the lower classes. They saw the Anglican church and the aristocracy as balances against commercial wealth.[22] They worked toward legislation for improved working conditions and urban housing.[23] This viewpoint would later be called Tory Democracy.[24] However since Burke there has always a tension between traditional aristocratic conservatism and the wealthy business class.[25] By the late 19th century, the traditional business supporters of the UK Liberal Party had joined the Conservatives, making them the party of business and commerce.[26] In the United States, conservatism developed after the Second World War when Russell Kirk and other writers identified an American conservative tradition based on the ideas of Edmund Burke. However many writers do not accept American conservatism as genuine and consider it to be a variety of liberalism.[27] Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821) [edit] French conservatism Wiki letter w.svg This section requires expansion. Another form of conservatism developed in France in parallel to conservatism in Britain. It was influenced by Counter-Enlightenment works by men such as Joseph de Maistre and Louis de Bonald. French conservatism was less pragmatic and more reactionary than the conservatism of Burke. De Maistre argued for the restoration of hereditary monarchy, which he regarded as a divinely sanctioned institution, and for the indirect authority of the Pope over temporal matters. He also defended the principle of hierarchical authority, which the Revolution sought to destroy. In 1819 Maistre published his masterpiece Du Pape ("On the Pope"). The work is divided into four parts. In the first he argues that, in the Church, the pope is sovereign, and that it is an essential characteristic of all sovereign power that its decisions should be subject to no appeal. Consequently, the pope is infallible in his teaching, since it is by his teaching that he exercises his sovereignty. In the remaining divisions the author examines the relations of the pope and the temporal powers, civilization and the welfare of nations, and the schismatic Churches. He argues that nations require protection against abuses of power by a sovereignty superior to all others, and that this sovereignty should be that of the papacy, the historical saviour and maker of European civilization. Bonald advocated similar views but believed in giving more power to the monarchy than the church. Eventually conservatives added patriotism and nationalism to the list of traditional values they support. German conservatives were the first to embrace nationalism, which was previously associated with liberalism and the Revolution in France.[28] Today, movements that use the name "conservative" have a wide variety of views. [edit] Variants There are over a dozen groups that are commonly given the appelation "conservative". Many of these groups will often vote together, even though they do not support each other, because they consider the alternative to be worse. The Tea Party has brought together many "conservatives" who have grown tired of both parties, but in particular to repudiate the neo-conservative RINOs of the GOP.[citation needed] James Dean's book elaborates more fully on the categories labelled conservative. A brief description of some follows below: [edit] Liberal conservatism Liberal conservatism is a variant of conservatism that combines conservative values and policies with classical liberal stances.[29] As these latter two terms have had different meanings over time and across countries, liberal conservatism also has a wide variety of meanings. Historically, the term often referred to the combination of economic liberalism, which champions laissez-faire markets, with the classical conservatism concern for established tradition, respect for authority and religious values. It contrasted itself with classical liberalism, which supported freedom for the individual in both the economic and social spheres. Over time, the general conservative ideology in many countries adopted economic liberal arguments, and the term liberal conservatism was replaced with conservatism. This is also the case in countries where liberal economic ideas have been the tradition, such as the United States, and are thus considered conservative. In other countries where liberal conservative movements have entered the political mainstream, such as Italy and Spain, the terms liberal and conservative may be synonymous. The liberal conservative tradition in the United States combines the economic individualism of the classical liberals with a Burkean form of conservatism (which has also become part of the American conservative tradition, such as in the writings of Russell Kirk). A secondary meaning for the term liberal conservatism that has developed in Europe is a combination of more modern conservative (less traditionalist) views with those of social liberalism. This has developed as an opposition to the more collectivist views of socialism. Often this involves stressing what are now conservative views of free-market economics and belief in individual responsibility, with social liberal views on defence of civil rights, environmentalism and support for a limited welfare state. This philosophy is that of Swedish Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt. In continental Europe, this is sometimes also translated into English as social conservatism. [edit] Conservative liberalism Conservative liberalism is a variant of liberalism that combines liberal values and policies with conservative stances, or, more simply, the right wing of the liberal movement.[30][31][32] The roots of conservative liberalism are found at the beginning of the history of liberalism. Until the two World Wars, in most European countries the political class was formed by conservative liberals, from Germany to Italy. The events such as World War I occurring after 1917 brought the more radical version of classical liberalism to a more conservative (i.e. more moderate) type of liberalism.[33] [edit] Libertarian conservatism Main article: Libertarian conservatism Libertarian conservatism describes certain political ideologies within the United States and Canada which combines libertarian economic issues with aspects of conservatism. Its five main branches are Constitutionalism, paleolibertarianism, neolibertarianism, small government conservatism and Christian libertarianism. They generally differ from paleoconservatives, in that they are in favor of more personal and economic freedom.[34] Agorists such as Samuel Edward Konkin III labeled libertarian conservatism right-libertarianism.[35][36] In contrast to paleoconservatives, libertarian conservatives support strict laissez-faire policies such as free trade, opposition to the Federal Reserve and opposition to business regulations. They are vehemently opposed to environmental regulations, corporate welfare, subsidies, and other areas of economic intervention. Many of them have views in accord to Ludwig von Mises.[citation needed] However, many of them oppose abortion, as they see it as a positive liberty and violates the non-aggression principle because abortion is aggression towards the fetus.[37] [edit] Fiscal conservatism Fiscal conservatism is the economic philosophy of prudence in government spending and debt.[38] Edmund Burke, in his 'Reflections on the Revolution in France', argued that a government does not have the right to run up large debts and then throw the burden on the taxpayer: ...[I]t is to the property of the citizen, and not to the demands of the creditor of the state, that the first and original faith of civil society is pledged. The claim of the citizen is prior in time, paramount in title, superior in equity. The fortunes of individuals, whether possessed by acquisition or by descent or in virtue of a participation in the goods of some community, were no part of the creditor's security, expressed or implied...[T]he public, whether represented by a monarch or by a senate, can pledge nothing but the public estate; and it can have no public estate except in what it derives from a just and proportioned imposition upon the citizens at large. [edit] Green conservatism Green conservatism is a term used to refer to conservatives who have incorporated green concerns into their ideology.[39] One of the first uses of the term green conservatism was by former United States Republican House Speaker Newt Gingrich, in a debate on environmental issues with John Kerry.[40][41] Around this time, the green conservative movement was sometimes referred to as the crunchy con movement, a term popularized by National Review magazine and the writings of Rod Dreher.[42] The group Republicans for Environmental Protection seeks to strengthen the Republican Party's stance on environmental issues, and supports efforts to conserve natural resources and protect human and environmental health. The Conservative Party in the United Kingdom under David Cameron has embraced a green agenda, including a tax on workplace car parking spaces, a halt to airport growth, a tax on gas-guzzling 4x4s and restrictions on car advertising. The measures were suggested by The Quality of Life Policy Group, which was set up by Cameron to help fight climate change. [edit] Cultural and social conservatism Main articles: Cultural conservatism and social conservatism Cultural conservatives support the preservation of the heritage of one nation, or of a shared culture that is not defined by national boundaries.[43] The shared culture may be as divergent as Western culture or Chinese culture. In the United States, the term cultural conservative may imply a conservative position in the culture war. Cultural conservatives hold fast to traditional ways of thinking even in the face of monumental change. They believe strongly in traditional values and traditional politics, and often have an urgent sense of nationalism. Social conservatism is distinct from cultural conservatism, although there are some overlaps. Social conservatives believe that the government has a role in encouraging or enforcing what they consider traditional values or behaviors. A social conservative wants to preserve traditional morality and social mores, often through civil law or regulation. Social change is generally regarded as suspect. A second meaning of the term social conservatism developed in the Nordic countries and continental Europe. There it refers to liberal conservatives supporting modern European welfare states. Social conservatives (in the first meaning of the word) in many countries generally favor the pro-life position in the abortion controversy and oppose public funding of embryonic stem cell research; oppose both eugenics (inheritable genetic modification) and human enhancement (transhumanism) while supporting bioconservatism;[44] support a traditional definition of marriage as being one man and one woman; view the nuclear family model as society's foundational unit; oppose expansion of civil marriage and child adoption rights to couples in same-sex relationships; promote public morality and traditional family values; oppose secularism and privatization of religious belief; support the prohibition of drugs, prostitution, premarital sex, non-marital sex and euthanasia; and support the censorship of pornography and what they consider to be obscenity or indecency. [edit] Religious conservatism See also: Religious right (disambiguation) and Christian Right Religious conservatives seek to apply the teachings of particular religions to politics, sometimes by merely proclaiming the value of those teachings, at other times by having those teachings influence laws.[45] Radical religious conservatives generally see the status quo as debased by abuses, corruption, or heresy. Such phenomena have arisen in practically all the world's religions. [edit] Conservatism in different countries This section may contain original research. Please improve it by verifying the claims made and adding references. Statements consisting only of original research may be removed. More details may be available on the talk page. (May 2010) Ambox question.svg This section may contain previously unpublished synthesis of published material that conveys ideas not attributable to the original sources. See the talk page for details. (May 2010) Further information: right-wing and political spectrum Conservative parties emerged in opposition to liberals. They were opposed to change, both wishing to protect traditional institutions and to protect the powerless from radical change. Conservative parties have been unsuccessful in most countries, and conservatives have mostly joined other parties of the center and the Right. As the franchise was broadened, they have had to modify their policies. Until the mid-1970s they were generally less opposed to state ownership than liberals, although more conservative on social policies. However since then they have become more permissive on social issues and more likely to support economic liberalism.[46] The following countries retained viable conservative parties into the 1980s, according to an analysis by Alan Ware in Political Parties and Party Systems: Belgium, Denmark, Iceland, Finland, France, Greece, Iceland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, and the UK. Australia, Germany, Israel, Italy, Japan, Malta, New Zealand, Spain and the US had no conservative parties, although they had either Christian Democrats or liberals as major right-wing parties. Canada, Ireland, and Portugal had right-wing political parties that defied categorization: the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada; Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, and Progressive Democrats in Ireland; and the Social Democratic Party of Portugal.[47] Since then the Swiss People's Party has moved to the extreme right and is no longer considered to be conservative.[48] Klaus von Beyme who developed the method of party categorization found that no modern Eastern European parties could be considered conservative, although the communist and communist-successor parties had strong similarities.[49] In Italy, which was united by liberals and radicals (risorgimento), liberals not conservatives emerged as the party of the Right.[50] In the Netherlands, conservatives merged into a new Christian democratic party in 1980.[51] In Austria, Germany, Portugal and Spain, conservatism was transformed into and incorporated into fascism or the far right.[52] In 1940 all Japanese parties were merged into a single fascist party. Following the war, Japanese conservatives briefly returned to politics but were largely purged from public office.[53] Louis Hartz explained the absence of conservatism in Australia or the United States as a result of their settlement as radical or liberal fragments of Great Britain. Although he said English Canada had a negligible conservative influence, subsequent writers claimed that loyalists opposed to the American Revolution brought a Tory ideology into Canada. Hartz explained conservatism in Quebec and Latin America as a result of their settlement as feudal societies.[54] The American conservative writer Russell Kirk provided the opinion that conservatism had been brought to the US and interpreted the American revolution as a "conservative revolution".[55] Conservative elites have long dominated Latin American nations. Mostly this has been achieved through control of and support for civil institutions, the church and the armed forces, rather than through party politics. Typically the church was exempt from taxes and its employees immune from civil prosecution. Where national conservative parties were weak or non-existent, conservatives were more likely to rely on military dictatorship as a preferred form of government. However in some nations where the elites were able to mobilize popular support for conservative parties, longer periods of political stability were achieved. Chile, Colombia and Venezuela are examples of nations that developed strong conservative parties. Argentina, Brazil, El Salvador and Peru are examples of nations where this did not occur.[56] The Conservative Party of Venezuela disappeared following the Federal Wars of 1858-1863.[57] Chile's conservative party, the National Party disbanded in 1973 following a military coup and did not re-emerge as a political force following the subsequent return to democracy.[58] The conservative Union Nationale governed the province of Quebec in periods from 1936 to 1960, in a close alliance with English Canadian business elites and the Catholic Church. This period, known as the Great Darkness ended with the Quiet Revolution and the party went into terminal decline.[59] [edit] Belgium Logo-cdenv.png Founded in 1945 as the Christian People's Party, the Flemish Christian Democrats (CD&V) dominated politics in post-war Belgium. In 1999, the party's support collapsed and it became the country's fifth largest party.[60] [edit] Canada Main article: Canadian conservatism Conservative Party of Canada.svg Canada's Conservatives had their roots in the Loyalists - Tories - who left America after the American Revolution. They developed in the socio-economic and political cleavages that existed during the first three decades of the 19th century, and had the support of the business, professional and established Church (Anglican) elites in Ontario and to a lesser extent in Quebec. Holding a monopoly over administrative and judicial offices, they were called the "Family Compact" in Ontario and the "Chateau Clique" in Quebec. John A. Macdonald's successful leadership of the movement to confederate the provinces and his subsequent tenure as prime minister for most of the late 19th century rested on his ability to bring together the English-speaking Protestant oligarchy and the ultramontane Catholic hierarchy of Quebec and to keep them united in a conservative coalition.[61] The Conservatives combined pro-market liberalism and Toryism. They generally supported an activist government and state intervention in the marketplace, and their policies were marked by noblesse oblige, a paternalistic responsibility of the elites for the less well-off.[62] From 1942, the party was known as the Progressive Conservatives, until 2003, when the national party merged with the Canadian Alliance to form the Conservative Party of Canada.[63] [edit] Colombia Conservative party logo.svg The Colombian Conservative Party, founded in 1849, traces its origins to opponents of General Francisco de Paula Santander's 1833-37 administration. While the term "liberal" had been used to describe all political forces in Colombia, the conservatives began describing themselves as "conservative liberals" and their opponents as "red liberals". From the 1860s until the present, the party has supported strong central government, and supported the Catholic Church, especially its role as protector of the sanctity of the family, and opposed separation of church and state. Its policies include the legal equality of all men, the citizen's right to own property and opposition to dictatorship. It has usually been Colombia's second largest party, with the Colombian Liberal Party being the largest. [edit] Denmark Konservative.png Founded in 1915, the Conservative People's Party of Denmark. was the successor of Høyre (literally "right"). In the 2005 election it won 18 out of 159 seats in the Folketing and became a junior partner in coalition with the Liberals.[64] The party is preceded by 11 years by the Young Conservativesâ??â??â?? (KU), today the youth movement of the party. [edit] Finland National Coalition Party.jpg The conservative party in Finland is the National Coalition Party (in Finnish Kansallinen Kokoomus, Kok). The party was founded in 1918 when several monarchist parties united. Although in the past the party was right-wing, today it is a moderate party. While the party advocates economic liberalism, it is committed to the social market economy.[65] [edit] France Logoump.png Following the Second World War, conservatives in France supported Gaullist groups and have been nationalistic, and emphasized tradition, order, and the regeneration of France. Gaullists held divergent views on social issues. The number of Conservative groups, their lack of stability, and their tendency to be identified with local issues defy simple categorization. Conservatism has been the major political force in France since the second world war.[66] Unusually, post-war French conservatism was formed around the personality of a leader, Charles de Gaulle, and did not draw on traditional French conservatism, but on the Bonapartism tradition.[67] Gaullism in France continues under the Union for a Popular Movement.[68] The word "conservative" itself is a term of abuse in France.[69] [edit] Greece NewDemocracyLogo.svg The main interwar conservative party was called the People's Party (PP), which supported constitutional monarchy and opposed the republican Liberal Party. It was able to re-group after the Second World War as part of a United Nationalist Front which achieved power campaigning on a simple anticommunist, ultranationalist platform. However, the vote received by the PP declined, leading them to create an expanded party, the Greek Rally, under the leadership of the charismatic General Alexandros Papagos. The conservatives opposed the far right dictatorship of the colonels (1967â??1974) and established the New Democratic Party following the fall of the dictatorship. The new party had four objectives: to confront Turkish expansionism in Cyprus, to reestablish and solidify democratic rule, to give the country a strong government, and to make a powerful moderate party a force in Greek politics.[70] [edit] Iceland Independence party.jpg Founded in 1926 as the Conservative Party, Iceland's Independence Party adopted its current name in 1929. From the beginning they have been the largest vote-winning party, averaging around 40%. They combine liberalism and conservatism, supporting nationalization and opposed to class conflict. While mostly in opposition during the 1930s, they embraced economic liberalism, but accepted the welfare state after the war and participated in governments supportive of state intervention and protectionism. Unlike other Scandanivian conservative (and liberal) parties, it has always had a large working-class following.[71] [edit] Luxembourg Christian Social People's Party logo.PNG Luxembourg's major conservative party, the Christian Social People's Party (CSV or PCS) was formed as the Party of the Right in 1914, and adopted its present name in 1945. It was consistently the largest political party in Luxembourg and dominated politics throughout the 20th century.[72] [edit] Norway Høyre logo.svg The Conservative Party of Norway (Norwegian: Høyre, literally "right") was formed by the old upper class of state officials and wealthy merchants to fight the populist democracy of the Liberal Party, but lost power in 1884 when parliamentarian government was first practised. It has elements both of paternalism, stressing the responsibilities of the state and of economic liberalism. It first returned to power in the 1960s.[73] [edit] Sweden 250px-Nya moderaterna.png Sweden's conservative party, the Moderate Party, was formed in 1904, two years after the founding of the liberal party.[74] The party emphasizes tax reductions, deregulation of private enterprise, and the partial privatization of education.[75] [edit] United Kingdom Conservatism in the United Kingdom is related to its counterparts in other Western nations, but has a distinct tradition. Edmund Burke is often considered the father of conservatism in the English-speaking world. Burke was a Whig, while the term Tory is given to the later Conservative Party. One Australian scholar argues, "For Edmund Burke and Australians of a like mind, the essence of conservatism lies not in a body of theory, but in the disposition to maintain those institutions seen as central to the beliefs and practices of society."[76] Margaret Thatcher, a radical reformer of Britain. The old established form of English and, after the Act of Union, British conservatism, was the Tory Party. It reflected the attitudes of a rural land owning class, and championed the institutions of the monarchy, the Anglican Church, the family, and property as the best defence of the social order. In the early stages of the industrial revolution, it seemed to be totally opposed to a process that seemed to undermine some of these bulwarks. The new industrial elite were seen by many as enemies to the social order. Robert Peel was able to reconcile the new industrial class to the Tory landed class by persuading the latter to accept the repeal of the Corn Laws in 1846. He created a new political group that sought to preserve the old status quo while accepting the basics of laissez-faire and free trade. The new coalition of traditional landowners and sympathetic industrialists constituted the new Conservative Party. Benjamin Disraeli gave the new party a political ideology. As a young man, he was influenced by the romantic movement and medievalism, and developed a devastating critique of industrialism. In his novels, he outlined an England divided into two nations, each living in perfect ignorance of each other. He foresaw, like Karl Marx, the phenomenon of an alienated industrial proletariat. His solution involved a return to an idealised view of a corporate or organic society, in which everyone had duties and responsibilities towards other people or groups. This "one nation" conservatism is still a significant tradition in British politics. It has animated a great deal of social reform undertaken by successive Conservative governments. Although nominally a Conservative, Disraeli was sympathetic to some of the demands of the Chartists and argued for an alliance between the landed aristocracy and the working class against the increasing power of the middle class, helping to found the Young England group in 1842 to promote the view that the rich should use their power to protect the poor from exploitation by the middle class. The conversion of the Conservative Party into a modern mass organisation was accelerated by the concept of Tory Democracy attributed to Lord Randolph Churchill. David Cameron, the current prime minister of the United Kingdom and leader of Conservative Party. A Liberal-Conservative coalition during World War I, coupled with the ascent of the Labour Party, hastened the collapse of the Liberals in the 1920s. After World War II, the Conservative Party made concessions to the socialist policies of the Left. This compromise was a pragmatic measure to regain power, but also the result of the early successes of central planning and state ownership forming a cross-party consensus. This was known as Butskellism, after the almost identical Keynesian policies of Rab Butler on behalf of the Conservatives, and Hugh Gaitskell for Labour. However, in the 1980s, under the leadership of Margaret Thatcher, and the influence of Keith Joseph, there was a dramatic shift in the ideological direction of British conservatism, with a movement towards free-market economic policies. As one commentator explains, "The privatization of state owned industries, unthinkable before, became commonplace [during Thatcher's government] and has now been imitated all over the world."[77] Some commentators have questioned whether Thatcherism was consistent with the traditional concept of conservatism in the United Kingdom, and saw her views as more consistent with radical classical liberalism. Thatcher was described as "a radical in a conservative party",[77] and her ideology has been seen as confronting "established institutions" and the "accepted beliefs of the elite",[77] both concepts incompatible with the traditional conception of conservatism as signifying support for the established order and existing social convention. [edit] United States Main article: Conservatism in the United States Conservatism in the United States includes a variety of political ideologies including fiscal conservatism, supply-side economics, social conservatism, libertarian conservatism, bioconservatism and religious conservatism,[78] as well as support for a strong military. Modern American conservatism was largely born out of alliance between classical liberals and social conservatives in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.[79] Contemporary American conservatism traces its heritage back to Anglo-Irish political philosopher Edmund Burke, who developed his views in response to the French Revolution.[80] US President Abraham Lincoln wrote that conservatism is "the adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried."[81] US president Ronald Reagan, who was a self-declared conservative, is widely seen as a symbol of American conservatism.[82] In an interview, he said "I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism."[83] Organizations in the US committed to promoting conservative ideology include the American Conservative Union, Eagle Forum, Heritage Foundation and the Hoover Institution. US-based media outlets that are conservative include Human Events, National Review, The American Conservative, Policy Review, and The Weekly Standard. In the US, social conservatives emphasize traditional views of social units such as the family, church, or locale. Social conservatism may entail defining marriage as relationships between one man and one woman (thereby prohibiting same-sex marriage and polygamy) and laws placing restrictions on the practice of abortion. While many religious conservatives believe that government should have a role in defending moral values, libertarian conservatives such as Barry Goldwater advocated a hands-off government where social values were concerned. [edit] Psychology Following the Second World War, psychologists conducted research into the different motives and tendencies that account for ideological differences between left and right. The early studies focused on conservatives, beginning with Theodor W. Adorno's The Authoritarian Personality (1950). This book has been heavily criticized on theoretical and methodological grounds, but some of its findings have been confirmed by further empirical research.[84] In 1973, British psychologist Glenn Wilson published an influential book providing evidence that a general factor underlying conservative beliefs is "fear of uncertainty".[85] A meta-analysis of research literature by Jost, Glaser, Kruglanski, and Sulloway in 2003 found that many factors, such as intolerance of ambiguity and need for cognitive closure, contribute to the degree of one's political conservatism.[84] A study by Kathleen Maclay stated these traits "might be associated with such generally valued characteristics as personal commitment and unwavering loyalty." The research also suggested that both liberals and conservatives are resistant to change; liberals simply have a higher tolerance.[86] According to psychologist Robert Altemeyer, individuals who are politically conservative tend to rank high in Right-Wing Authoritarianism on his RWA scale.[87] This finding was echoed by Theodor Adorno. A study done on Israeli and Palestinian students in Israel found that RWA scores of right-wing party supporters were significantly higher than those of left-wing party supporters.[88] However, a 2005 study by H. Michael Crowson and colleagues suggested a moderate gap between RWA and other conservative positions. "The results indicated that conservatism is not synonymous with RWA." [89] Psychologist Felicia Pratto and her colleagues have found evidence to support the idea that a high Social Dominance Orientation (SDO) is strongly correlated with conservative political views, and opposition to social engineering to promote equality, though Pratto's findings have been highly controversial.[90] Pratto and her colleagues found that high SDO scores were highly correlated with measures of prejudice. They were refuted in this claim by David J. Schneider, who wrote that "correlations between prejudice and political conservative are reduced virtually to zero when controls for SDO are instituted" [91] and by Kenneth Minogue who wrote "It is characteristic of the conservative temperament to value established identities, to praise habit and to respect prejudice, not because it is irrational, but because such things anchor the darting impusles of human beings in solidities of custom which we do not often begin to value until we are already losing them. Radicalism often generates youth movements, while conservatism is a condition found among the mature, who have discovered what it is in life they most value." [92] A 1996 study on the relationship between racism and conservatism found that the correlation was stronger among more educated individuals, though specifically anti-Black racism did not increase. They also found that the correlation between racism and conservatism could be entirely accounted for by their mutual relationship with social dominance orientation. The authors concluded that opposition to affirmative action, especially among more highly educated conservatives, was better explained by social dominance orientation than by principled conservatism.[93] [edit] Notes
Donk Pooper Member	Thu Oct 14 09:01:28 "The first established use of the term in a political context was by Fran�§ois-Ren�© de Chateaubriand " Conservatism = french invention. LOL!
Donk Pooper Member	Thu Oct 14 09:14:57 btw please stop cherry picking filthy foreigner. Here is Goldwaters full quote My good friend and great Republican, Dick Nixon, and your charming wife, Pat; my running mate, that wonderful Republican who has served us so well for so long, Bill Miller and his wife, Stephanie; to Thurston Morton who's done such a commendable job in chairmaning this Convention; to Mr. Herbert Hoover, who I hope is watching; and to that -- that great American and his wife, General and Mrs. Eisenhower; to my own wife, my family, and to all of my fellow Republicans here assembled, and Americans across this great Nation. From this moment, united and determined, we will go forward together, dedicated to the ultimate and undeniable greatness of the whole man. Together -- Together we will win. I accept your nomination with a deep sense of humility. I accept, too, the responsibility that goes with it, and I seek your continued help and your continued guidance. My fellow Republicans, our cause is too great for any man to feel worthy of it. Our task would be too great for any man, did he not have with him the hearts and the hands of this great Republican Party, and I promise you tonight that every fiber of my being is consecrated to our cause; that nothing shall be lacking from the struggle that can be brought to it by enthusiasm, by devotion, and plain hard work. In this world no person, no Party can guarantee anything, but what we can do and what we shall do is to deserve victory, and victory will be ours. The good Lord raised this mighty Republic to be a home for the brave and to flourish as the land of the free -- not to stagnate in the swampland of collectivism, not to cringe before the bullying of communism. Now, my fellow Americans, the tide has been running against freedom. Our people have followed false prophets. We must, and we shall, return to proven ways -- not because they are old, but because they are true. We must, and we shall, set the tides running again in the cause of freedom. And this party, with its every action, every word, every breath, and every heartbeat, has but a single resolve, and that is freedom -- freedom made orderly for this Nation by our constitutional government; freedom under a government limited by the laws of nature and of nature's God; freedom balanced so that order lacking liberty [sic] will not become the slavery of the prison shell [cell]; balanced so that liberty lacking order will not become the license of the mob and of the jungle. Now, we Americans understand freedom. We have earned it; we have lived for it, and we have died for it. This Nation and its people are freedom's model in a searching world. We can be freedom's missionaries in a doubting world. But, ladies and gentlemen, first we must renew freedom's mission in our own hearts and in our own homes. During four futile years, the administration which we shall replace has -- has distorted and lost that vision. It has talked and talked and talked and talked the words of freedom, but it has failed and failed and failed in the works of freedom. Now, failures cement the wall of shame in Berlin. Failures blot the sands of shame at the Bay of Pigs. Failures mark the slow death of freedom in Laos. Failures infest the jungles of Vietnam. And failures haunt the houses of our once great alliances and undermine the greatest bulwark ever erected by free nations -- the NATO community. Failures proclaim lost leadership, obscure purpose, weakening will, and the risk of inciting our sworn enemies to new aggressions and to new excesses. And because of this administration we are tonight a world divided; we are a Nation becalmed. We have lost the brisk pace of diversity and the genius of individual creativity. We are plodding along at a pace set by centralized planning, red tape, rules without responsibility, and regimentation without recourse. Rather than useful jobs in our country, our people have been offered bureaucratic "make work"; rather than moral leadership, they have been given bread and circuses. They have been given spectacles, and, yes, they've even been given scandals. Tonight, there is violence in our streets, corruption in our highest offices, aimlessness amongst our youth, anxiety among our elders, and there's a virtual despair among the many who look beyond material success for the inner meaning of their lives. And where examples of morality should be set, the opposite is seen. Small men, seeking great wealth or power, have too often and too long turned even the highest levels of public service into mere personal opportunity. Now, certainly, simple honesty is not too much to demand of men in government. We find it in most. Republicans demand it from everyone. They demand it from everyone no matter how exalted or protected his position might be. Now the -- the growing menace in our country tonight, to personal safety, to life, to limb and property, in homes, in churches, on the playgrounds, and places of business, particularly in our great cities, is the mounting concern, or should be, of every thoughtful citizen in the United States. Security from domestic violence, no less than from foreign aggression, is the most elementary and fundamental purpose of any government, and a government that cannot fulfill this purpose is one that cannot long command the loyalty of its citizens. History shows us -- it demonstrates that nothing, nothing prepares the way for tyranny more than the failure of public officials to keep the streets safe from bullies and marauders. Now, we Republicans see all this as more, much more, than the result of mere political differences or mere political mistakes. We see this as the result of a fundamentally and absolutely wrong view of man, his nature, and his destiny. Those who seek to live your lives for you, to take your liberties in return for relieving you of yours, those who elevate the state and downgrade the citizen must see ultimately a world in which earthly power can be substituted for Divine Will, and this Nation was founded upon the rejection of that notion and upon the acceptance of God as the author of freedom. Now those who seek absolute power, even though they seek it to do what they regard as good, are simply demanding the right to enforce their own version of heaven on earth. They -- and let me remind you, they are the very ones who always create the most hellish tyrannies. Absolute power does corrupt, and those who seek it must be suspect and must be opposed. Their mistaken course stems from false notions, ladies and gentlemen, of equality. Equality, rightly understood, as our founding fathers understood it, leads to liberty and to the emancipation of creative differences. Wrongly understood, as it has been so tragically in our time, it leads first to conformity and then to despotism. Fellow Republicans, it is the cause of Republicanism to resist concentrations of power, private or public, which -- which enforce such conformity and inflict such despotism. It is the cause of Republicanism to ensure that power remains in the hands of the people. And, so help us God, that is exactly what a Republican President will do with the help of a Republican Congress. It is further the cause of Republicanism to restore a clear understanding of the tyranny of man over man in the world at large. It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression -- and this is hogwash. It is further the cause of Republicanism to remind ourselves, and the world, that only the strong can remain free, that only the strong can keep the peace. Now, I needn't remind you, or my fellow Americans regardless of party, that Republicans have shouldered this hard responsibility and marched in this cause before. It was Republican leadership under Dwight Eisenhower that kept the peace, and passed along to this administration the mightiest arsenal for defense the world has ever known. And I needn't remind you that it was the strength and the [un]believable will of the Eisenhower years that kept the peace by using our strength, by using it in the Formosa Straits and in Lebanon and by showing it courageously at all times. It was during those Republican years that the thrust of Communist imperialism was blunted. It was during those years of Republican leadership that this world moved closer, not to war, but closer to peace, than at any other time in the last three decades. And I needn't remind you -- but I will -- that it's been during Democratic years that our strength to deter war has stood still, and even gone into a planned decline. It has been during Democratic years that we have weakly stumbled into conflict, timidly refusing to draw our own lines against aggression, deceitfully refusing to tell even our people of our full participation, and tragically, letting our finest men die on battlefields, unmarked by purpose, unmarked by pride or the prospect of victory. Yesterday, it was Korea. Tonight, it is Vietnam. Make no bones of this. Don't try to sweep this under the rug. We are at war in Vietnam. And yet the President, who is the Commander-in-Chief of our forces, refuses to say -- refuses to say, mind you, whether or not the objective over there is victory. And his Secretary of Defense continues to mislead and misinform the American people, and enough of it has gone by. And I needn't remind you -- but I will -- it has been during Democratic years that a billion persons were cast into Communist captivity and their fate cynically sealed. Today -- Today in our beloved country we have an administration which seems eager to deal with communism in every coin known -- from gold to wheat, from consulates to confidences, and even human freedom itself. Now the Republican cause demands that we brand communism as the principal disturber of peace in the world today. Indeed, we should brand it as the only significant disturber of the peace, and we must make clear that until its goals of conquest are absolutely renounced and its relations with all nations tempered, communism and the governments it now controls are enemies of every man on earth who is or wants to be free. Now, we here in America can keep the peace only if we remain vigilant and only if we remain strong. Only if we keep our eyes open and keep our guard up can we prevent war. And I want to make this abundantly clear: I don't intend to let peace or freedom be torn from our grasp because of lack of strength or lack of will -- and that I promise you, Americans. I believe that we must look beyond the defense of freedom today to its extension tomorrow. I believe that the communism which boasts it will bury us will, instead, give way to the forces of freedom. And I can see in the distant and yet recognizable future the outlines of a world worthy of our dedication, our every risk, our every effort, our every sacrifice along the way. Yes, a world that will redeem the suffering of those who will be liberated from tyranny. I can see -- and I suggest that all thoughtful men must contemplate -- the flowering of an Atlantic civilization, the whole of Europe reunified and freed, trading openly across its borders, communicating openly across the world. Now, this is a goal far, far more meaningful than a moon shot. It's a -- It's a truly inspiring goal for all free men to set for themselves during the latter half of the twentieth century. I can also see -- and all free men must thrill to -- the events of this Atlantic civilization joined by its great ocean highway to the United States. What a destiny! What a destiny can be ours to stand as a great central pillar linking Europe, the Americas, and the venerable and vital peoples and cultures of the Pacific. I can see a day when all the Americas, North and South, will be linked in a mighty system, a system in which the errors and misunderstandings of the past will be submerged one by one in a rising tide of prosperity and interdependence. We know that the misunderstandings of centuries are not to be wiped away in a day or wiped away in an hour. But we pledge, we pledge that human sympathy -- what our neighbors to the South call an attitude of "simpatico" -- no less than enlightened self'-interest will be our guide. And I can see this Atlantic civilization galvanizing and guiding emergent nations everywhere. Now I know this freedom is not the fruit of every soil. I know that our own freedom was achieved through centuries, by unremitting efforts of brave and wise men. And I know that the road to freedom is a long and a challenging road. And I know also that some men may walk away from it, that some men resist challenge, accepting the false security of governmental paternalism. And I -- And I pledge that the America I envision in the years ahead will extend its hand in health, in teaching and in cultivation, so that all new nations will be at least encouraged -- encouraged! -- to go our way, so that they will not wander down the dark alleys of tyranny or the dead-end streets of collectivism. My fellow Republicans, we do no man a service by hiding freedom's light under a bushel of mistaken humility. I seek an America proud of its past, proud of its ways, proud of its dreams, and determined actively to proclaim them. But our example to the world must, like charity, begin at home. In our vision of a good and decent future, free and peaceful, there must be room, room for deliberation of the energy and the talent of the individual; otherwise our vision is blind at the outset. We must assure a society here which, while never abandoning the needy or forsaking the helpless, nurtures incentives and opportunities for the creative and the productive. We must know the whole good is the product of many single contributions. And I cherish a day when our children once again will restore as heroes the sort of men and women who, unafraid and undaunted, pursue the truth, strive to cure disease, subdue and make fruitful our natural environment and produce the inventive engines of production, science, and technology. This Nation, whose creative people have enhanced this entire span of history, should again thrive upon the greatness of all those things which we, we as individual citizens, can and should do. And during Republican years, this again will be a nation of men and women, of families proud of their role, jealous of their responsibilities, unlimited in their aspirations -- a Nation where all who can will be self-reliant. We Republicans see in our constitutional form of government the great framework which assures the orderly but dynamic fulfillment of the whole man, and we see the whole man as the great reason for instituting orderly government in the first place. We see -- We see in private property and in economy based upon and fostering private property, the one way to make government a durable ally of the whole man, rather than his determined enemy. We see in the sanctity of private property the only durable foundation for constitutional government in a free society. And -- And beyond that, we see, in cherished diversity of ways, diversity of thoughts, of motives and accomplishments. We don't seek to lead anyone's life for him. We only seek -- only seek to secure his rights, guarantee him opportunity -- guarantee him opportunity to strive, with government performing only those needed and constitutionally sanctioned tasks which cannot otherwise be performed. We Republicans seek a government that attends to its inherent responsibilities of maintaining a stable monetary and fiscal climate, encouraging a free and a competitive economy and enforcing law and order. Thus, do we seek inventiveness, diversity, and creative difference within a stable order, for we Republicans define government's role where needed at many, many levels -- preferably, though, the one closest to the people involved. Our towns and our cities, then our counties, then our states, then our regional compacts -- and only then, the national government. That, let me remind you, is the ladder of liberty, built by decentralized power. On it also we must have balance between the branches of government at every level. Balance, diversity, creative difference: These are the elements of the Republican equation. Republicans agree -- Republicans agree heartily to disagree on many, many of their applications, but we have never disagreed on the basic fundamental issues of why you and I are Republicans. This is a Party. This Republican Party is a Party for free men, not for blind followers, and not for conformists. In fact, in 1858 Abraham Lincoln said this of the Republican party -- and I quote him, because he probably could have said it during the last week or so: "It was composed of strange, discordant, and even hostile elements" -- end of the quote -- in 1858. Yet -- Yet all of these elements agreed on one paramount objective: To arrest the progress of slavery, and place it in the course of ultimate extinction. Today, as then, but more urgently and more broadly than then, the task of preserving and enlarging freedom at home and of safeguarding it from the forces of tyranny abroad is great enough to challenge all our resources and to require all our strength. Anyone who joins us in all sincerity, we welcome. Those who do not care for our cause, we don't expect to enter our ranks in any case. And -- And let our Republicanism, so focused and so dedicated, not be made fuzzy and futile by unthinking and stupid labels. I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. Why the beauty of the very system we Republicans are pledged to restore and revitalize, the beauty of this Federal system of ours is in its reconciliation of diversity with unity. We must not see malice in honest differences of opinion, and no matter how great, so long as they are not inconsistent with the pledges we have given to each other in and through our Constitution. Our Republican cause is not to level out the world or make its people conform in computer regimented sameness. Our Republican cause is to free our people and light the way for liberty throughout the world. Ours is a very human cause for very humane goals. This Party, its good people, and its unquenchable devotion to freedom, will not fulfill the purposes of this campaign, which we launch here and now, until our cause has won the day, inspired the world, and shown the way to a tomorrow worthy of all our yesteryears. I repeat, I accept your nomination with humbleness, with pride, and you and I are going to fight for the goodness of our land.
Hot Rod Member	Fri Oct 15 09:51:08 "We could say they spend like drunken sailors, but that would be unfair to drunken sailors. Drunken Sailors are spending their OWN money." ~~ Ronald Reagan
CrownRoyal Member	Fri Oct 15 09:54:59 LOL, said the guy who tripled the national debt. Ronnie was great.
miltonfriedman Member	Fri Oct 15 10:11:14 UPArchivist, Thanks for the link. Was there a specific quote you had in mind? I found quite a few yowzzers including "congressional testimonies are opinion pieces" and "I don't watch news after 5 PM" among many other similarly retarded posts. Could you show me the one you had in mind?
miltonfriedman Member	Fri Oct 15 10:11:52 I also have a good quote: "I will stop raping young boys if you stop sucking nigger cocks." ~Molester Rod on pedophilia
Hot Rod Member	Fri Oct 15 10:13:25 Yes but: "Reagan's policies are recognized by some (but not all, for example economist James K. Galbraith makes a very different case in his 2009 book "How Conservatives Abandoned the Free Market and Why Liberals Should Too") as bringing about one of the longest peacetime expansions in U.S. history.[9] During the Reagan administration, the American economy went from a GDP growth of -0.3% in 1980 to 4.1% in 1988 (in constant 2005 dollars),[10] which reduced the unemployment rate by 1.6pp, from 7.1% in 1980 to 5.5% in 1988, but with peaks of around 9.5% in 1982 and 1983.[11] A net job increase of about 16 million also occurred (about the rate of population growth). Reaganâ??s administration is the only one not to have raised the minimum wage.[12] The inflation rate, 13.5% in 1980, fell to 4.1% in 1988, which was achieved by applying high interest rates by the Federal Reserve (peaked at 20% in June 1981).[13] The latter caused a brief recession in 1982: unemployment rose to 9.7% and GDP fell by 1.9%." WIKI
CrownRoyal Member	Fri Oct 15 10:20:38 This wiki page should somehow compliment your nigger quote, Rod?
Hot Rod Member	Fri Oct 15 10:30:19 Do you know what a nigger is? Here is a hint, miltonfriedman is a nigger.
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Oct 15 10:34:02 Hot Rod Jul 19th, 2008 8:53 AM You cannot have a double standard when it comes to that word. It needs to disappear from the human mind and be relegated to oblivion. Hot Rod Jul 23rd, 2008 8:43 PM Stevie has the right idea. "We buried the word and it should have been buried. For all the pain that has happened over the years, it needs to go away." --Stevie Wonder Hot Rod Jul 22nd, 2008 8:09 PM It is probably the single most hated word in the English language. http://ata...archivepost.jsp?thread=1069070
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Oct 15 10:47:47 I wonder if there is one single thing ever that hotrod has told everybody else they should do that he himself doesn't do the exact opposite of? Ever? Ever?
miltonfriedman Member	Fri Oct 15 10:59:19 couldn't think of one.
Samantha Hot Rod Fox Member	Fri Oct 15 12:05:03 Touch me! Touch me now! I want to feel lil davey's body.
jergul Member	Fri Oct 15 12:22:35 Great thread. Informative information too. Without the meddling commentary that so often deters from pure facts. We should chain letter the thread.
Hot Rod Member	Fri Oct 15 19:25:11 I bet I could give each and everyone of you a connect the dots puzzle that is supposed to be a mouse and you would make it into an elephant. Damn you people are stupid.
adolf hiTler Member	Fri Oct 15 19:27:04 Youve got some drool hanging down from your chin there.
NeverWoods Member	Fri Oct 15 19:31:49 "I bet I could give each and everyone of you a connect the dots puzzle that is supposed to be a mouse and you would make it into an elephant." Your source lied, it was an elephant. But you are blatantly ignoring that fact so you cherry pick. "Hot Rod died" Morally very true.
Hot Rod Member	Fri Oct 15 19:43:59 NeverWoods, you would have *burned* the puzzle book before I could administer the test in order to hide your stupidity.
NeverWoods Member	Fri Oct 15 19:47:17 Ofc i would never burn it :) Was it written by rand? That skank can't write for shit.
Hot Rod Member	Fri Oct 15 19:53:22 NW, You are a confessed book burning Nazi, you will burn any book that threatens you.
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Fri Oct 15 19:54:55 I burnt a copy of the mormon scriptures once. Of course, I only did it to offend a mormon who wouldn't fuck off about trying to convert me,.
NeverWoods Member	Sat Oct 16 04:07:03 "NW, You are a confessed book burning Nazi, you will burn any book that threatens you." You are a confessed liar ;)
Hot Rod Member	Sat Oct 16 07:43:06 "The temptation to swap liberty for false comfort of government-guaranteed security is a fool's bargain." ~~ Paul Harvey (quoted in the 2009 book Paul Harvey's America)
Milton Bradley Member	Sat Oct 16 07:50:32 Good to see you confessing to being liar AND a fool
Hot Rod Member	Sat Oct 16 07:55:49 Good to see you with your pants down and your ass pointed at miltonfriedman's dick.
Milton Bradley Member	Sat Oct 16 07:56:15 grow up.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Oct 16 07:58:59 Think you ever will schmuck?
Milton Bradley Member	Sat Oct 16 08:01:33 Theres your sign
miltonfriedman Member	Sat Oct 16 10:41:55 Strange that Molester Rod is talking about gay sex, considering the following: "I will stop raping young boys if you stop sucking nigger cocks." ~Molester Rod
Hot Rod Member	Mon Oct 18 07:26:34 "If I found in my own ranks that a certain number of guys wanted to cut my throat, I'd make sure that I cut their throats first." ~~~Pierre Elliott Trudeau (1919-2000) Canadian Prime Minister
Squirrely Wrath Member	Mon Oct 18 08:01:34 "Anyone that uses that word [Nigger] as an insult cannot possibly anymore despicable in my book. " -Hot Rod Jul 3rd, 2008 4:29 PM
Hot Rod Member	Mon Oct 18 08:04:43 "People often say that, in {the USA}, decisions are made by a majority of the people. Of course, that is not true. Decisions are made by a majority of those who make themselves heard and who vote - a very different thing." ~Walter H. Judd
Milton Bradley Member	Mon Oct 18 08:07:09 The American people are worried about immigration. In a Pew Survey released last week, 52 percent of Americans saw immigration as a burden, while 41 percent said it strengthened the country; 53 percent support sending illegals home, while 40 percent endorsed a path to citizenship. Given the hoopla about illegal immigration, this division is in fact surprisingly close. In any case, it means GOP senators and congressmen--and presidents--have plenty of room to show leadership and to resist demagoguery. Most Republican officeholders know that the political--and moral--cost of turning the GOP into an anti-immigration, Know Nothing party would be very great. It could easily dash Republican hopes of becoming a long-term governing party. How many Republicans will have the courage to stand up and prevent the yahoos from driving the party off a cliff? - William Kristol
Squirrely Wrath Member	Mon Oct 18 08:20:41 Hot Rod hates burning books, but on July 8th 2008. The poster J.B. posted an article about Flag Burning On Indepedence Day. The article described of the American flag that was being burned due some demonstrators on Indepedence Day. It was an American Flag, nothing wrong with it, hasn't been dropped, just was burned. Hot Rod's response? "Cool." -Hot Rod Jul 8th, 2008 11:21 AM
Squirrely Wrath Member	Mon Oct 18 08:22:50 "Babies should be confiscated and burned like any other narcotic." -Hot Rod Jul 9th, 2008 6:38 AM
Squirrely Wrath Member	Mon Oct 18 08:23:44 Apparently, "books are a mortal sin to burn", babies are free game (according to Hot Rod).
Hot Rod Member	Mon Oct 18 08:25:16 Squirrely Wrath, I scanned the likely threads of July 3, 2008 that quote might have appeared in and could not find it. Would you point me to the particular thread. Thanks.
Milton Bradley Member	Mon Oct 18 08:30:37 "You fucking dip shit ignorant dick licker. IF THE GOD DAMNED THREAD HAD NOT BEEN SPAMMED THREE TIMES IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN TOPPED THREE TIMES. SHIT, YOU SONS A BITCHES ARE STUPIDER THAN AN IRON BALL. It is just a funny little video I thought some of you might get a kick out of, it really is funny, but no. Some asshole has to ruin it for everyone and you assholes just make it worse. You all would rather look at somebody's dick and discussing it instead of watching something clean and wholesome for a chsnge. I have never seen such a group of degenerates. Go fuck yourselves. " hot rod
Firestorm Phoenix Member	Mon Oct 18 08:38:11 HR, if you are that disgusted with this place and the posters in it, why do you stay?
Firestorm Phoenix Member	Mon Oct 18 08:39:19 Honest question, btw. I have no ulterior motive.
Hot Rod Member	Mon Oct 18 08:39:29 I think we have two truths. 1) Squirrely Wrath is the AH version of Milton Bradley. 2) Squirrely Wrath's quotes attributed to me are total fabrications.
Milton Bradley Member	Mon Oct 18 08:39:57 Hot Rod Jul 19th, 2008 8:53 AM You cannot have a double standard when it comes to that word. It needs to disappear from the human mind and be relegated to oblivion. Hot Rod Jul 23rd, 2008 8:43 PM Stevie has the right idea. "We buried the word and it should have been buried. For all the pain that has happened over the years, it needs to go away." --Stevie Wonder Hot Rod Jul 22nd, 2008 8:09 PM It is probably the single most hated word in the English language. "I have learned not to be a racist" "I am a social liberal." "I have nothing against gays." http://atarchive.gotdns.org:8080/archiv ... ad=1070246 The Guardian Member Tue Jul 06 23:13:21 mf, I didn't include yopu in being a closet homosexual. We all know how much you love those big juicy nigger cocks with their cum drooling down your chin. The Guardian Member Tue Jul 06 23:17:06 Why not call them what they are? It is obvious what they are trying to hide. That is what I respect about you, you are not ashamed of sucking nigger cock. Hot Rod Member Tue Jul 06 23:35:23 You still got that big juicy nigger cock up your ass queer? Hot Rod Member Tue Jul 06 23:59:16 So you consider sucking those great big juicy nigger cocks to be mentally healthy. Well as long as you consider yourself virtuous you just go right aheadd. Just don't bite down. Hot Rod Member Wed Jul 07 00:07:59 Who you got at the plate tonight? Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton? http://www.utopiaforums.com/boardthread ... 4379648991 Hot Rod Moderator Tue Aug 26 08:08:42 Stupid shit face foreigner, can't even read English. Hot Rod Member Mon Sep 13 07:03:24 Is it your mother or your father that is a nigger. Renzo says it is your dad, I say it is your mother. http://www.utopiaforums.com/boardthread ... 4379648991 Hot Rod Member Wed May 06 08:38:44 You have a nice day there Sand Nigga. http://www.utopiaforums.com/boardthread ... 4379648991 Hot Rod Member Sun Sep 26 08:39:39 If a race or nationality does not want to be profiled by the authorities, let the innocent ones help clean up the mess by speaking out. I'm tired of their whining. http://www.utopiaforums.com/boardthread ... 5513292312 Hot Rod Member Wed Oct 13 23:31:32 Fucking ignorant foreigners. http://www.utopiaforums.com/boardthread ... 7092286676 The Guardian Member Fri Jun 18 21:46:12 I won't rape if you will give up sucking nigger dick. Too much to ask opf you? Just as I thought. http://www.utopiaforums.com/boardthread ... leted=true
Squirrely Wrath Member	Mon Oct 18 08:40:58 They are not fabrications. They are factual and accurate posts contributed from you to the board in 2008. A search on the archives will reveal them. Your inability to find them isn't my problem.
Hot Rod Member	Mon Oct 18 08:42:01 FP, ulterior motive or not, I think the more pertinent question is why do you sanction their childishness?
Squirrely Wrath Member	Mon Oct 18 08:45:11 Why did you fake your death?
Hot Rod Member	Mon Oct 18 08:47:12 Squirrely Wrath, if you refuse to link your source then stop posting dick breath. There were 45 threads that day and I spent over 10 minutes scanning them. Your failure to link your "quotes" is de facto proof they are fabricated. So go fuck yourself Rudolph.
Hot Rod Member	Mon Oct 18 08:53:43 The only archive that has UP Archives for July 3, 2008. http://ata...topia&boardid=politics&page=12
Squirrely Wrath Member	Mon Oct 18 08:55:38 http://ata...viewposts.jsp?username=Hot_Rod Your inability to find them isn't my problem.
Hot Rod Member	Mon Oct 18 08:56:39 That wasn't a troll. It was a pure, unadulterated lie. That is what AH does, he is too chickenshit to resort to the truth.
Squirrely Wrath Member	Mon Oct 18 08:58:15 There are no lies period. Your quotes are accurate from your contributions to the forum in 2008. Your inability to find them isn't my problem.
Milton Bradley Member	Mon Oct 18 08:59:43 http://ata...archivepost.jsp?thread=1067945 "Babies should be confiscated and burned like any other narcotic." SW was not lying. Interesting.
Hot Rod Member	Mon Oct 18 09:00:09 As I said, a pure, unadulterated lie. Hot Rod Jul 1st, 2008 12:41 PM It will be business as usual, except we might have access to more games through the current website. Hot Rod Jul 1st, 2008 1:38 PM They just do that to shut me up when I have soundly defeated them in debate. Hot Rod Jul 2nd, 2008 3:12 PM I currently have two that are just as lonely. :( Hot Rod Jul 6th, 2008 11:33 PM BUSTED http://boa...olitics&thread=33&spec=6763980
Milton Bradley Member	Mon Oct 18 09:01:24 No lie, my above post just showed you the thread with your quote. What now? Apology to SW?
Milton Bradley Member	Mon Oct 18 09:02:23 http://ata...archivepost.jsp?thread=1067894 oh look I found the "cool" quote. Apologies to SW?
Milton Bradley Member	Mon Oct 18 09:02:53 You really suck using the internet.
Hot Rod Member	Mon Oct 18 09:03:26 Hot Rod Patron Jul 9th, 2008 6:38 AM Babies should be confiscated and burned like any other narcotic. Considering the context of the subject of the thread are you incapable of seeing that was intended as a joke at the expense of government?
Milton Bradley Member	Mon Oct 18 09:04:24 "Anyone that uses that word [Nigger] as an insult cannot possibly anymore despicable in my book. " -Hot Rod Jul 3rd, 2008 4:29 PM squirrel, got the link to that for the AOUPR archives?
Milton Bradley Member	Mon Oct 18 09:07:26 Hmm some of hotrods posts are clearly not indexed under his name...
Hot Rod Member	Mon Oct 18 09:10:05 MB - Apologies to SW? You said nothing about a "cool" quote. Besides, that referred to the OP.
Hot Rod Member	Mon Oct 18 09:12:23 MB - squirrel, got the link to that for the AOUPR archives? Which is a rats nest of lies, misquotes and fabrications. Leaving now to take a shower to wash yoyr stink off.
Milton Bradley Member	Mon Oct 18 09:19:27 grow up sonny
Hot Rod Member	Mon Oct 18 09:34:44 MB - squirrel, got the link to that for the AOUPR archives? Where did they get it from Packy?
Milton Bradley Member	Mon Oct 18 09:55:24 theres your tell.
Milton Bradley Member	Mon Oct 18 09:56:53 Btw, the stink of your lies, misquotes and fabrications is still on you.
Firestorm Phoenix Member	Mon Oct 18 09:56:58 Hot Rod Member Mon Oct 18 08:42:01 FP, ulterior motive or not, I think the more pertinent question is why do you sanction their childishness? - I never gave opinion on that either way. My question is why do you stay in a place where you are continually abused?
miltonfriedman Member	Mon Oct 18 10:03:30 As a main contributor to that site, all of Molester Rod's quotes come with a link so that visitors can see their veracity. None of the quotes has been fabricated. Each quote has been linked for authentication.
Hot Rod Member	Mon Oct 18 10:12:19 FP - - I never gave opinion on that either way. My question is why do you stay in a place where you are continually abused? You expressed *YOUR* opinion when you asked why *I* did not leave. By ignoring their attacks you have come down on their side of the fence. BTW, I recall that you have made some unwarranted attacks against me yourself while I only made only one unwarranted attack against you.
Firestorm Phoenix Member	Mon Oct 18 10:14:39 So basically it is because you are an attention whore. Got it.
Hot Rod Member	Mon Oct 18 10:16:52 LOL, how the hell did you get that?
Dead Rod Member	Mon Oct 18 10:20:00
Dead Rod Member	Mon Oct 18 10:20:37 TTT FUCKING DEAD DOG SHIT LICKING FUCKING TTT
Hot Rod Member	Mon Oct 18 10:22:23 -30-
Firestorm Phoenix Member	Mon Oct 18 10:22:57 Why else stay here? Either you are a glutton for punishment, or you like the attention. The faking of your death gives evidence toward the latter, no matter what your reasons may have been.
Milton Bradley Member	Mon Oct 18 10:23:07 worst thread ever. But then again, look at who posted it.
Firestorm Phoenix Member	Mon Oct 18 10:23:34 End of Line.
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