Utopia Talk / Politics / Palestinian Authority to force hand

Aeros Member	Sat Oct 09 07:27:38 Looks like two things. They are going to ask the USA to recognize their claimed borders. If that fails, they will disband the Palestinian Authority and request UN Administration. http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=190740 'Abbas may ask US recognition for state in 67 borders' Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas on Friday told leaders at the Arab League meeting in Libya that if peace talks remain stalled, he may ask the US to recognize a Palestinian state within the pre-1967 borders, Reuters reported. Another option was to demand that the United Nations place the Palestinian territories under an international mandate, AFP reported. A Palestinian official quoted Abbas as saying, "What is the PA needed for if all these alternatives fail?" Ma'an reported on Saturday. Earlier Friday, senior Abbas aide Nabil Abu Rdaineh said that an Arab League follow-up meeting would study unspecified "alternatives and ideas that were presented by the president [Abbas]." It is likely these were the alternatives he spoke of. Foreign ministers from the 22-member Arab League agreed to give the United States another month to try to persuade Israel to renew the moratorium on West Bank settlement construction and keep Mideast peace talks from collapsing. "We support the Palestinian president's position calling for a complete halt of all settlement activities in order to resume negotiation," the Arab League's deputy Ahmad Bin Helli said as he read a statement issued after the ministerial meeting. But the ministers also said they would resume meetings in a month to study alternatives and decide on next steps, giving the United States some breathing room.
Garyd Member	Sat Oct 09 08:42:34 Well there is one good thing that will come out of all this. Not even the UN can do any worse a job of running the place than Abbas and his predecessors have. After all when you are as fr down as you can go the only two directions you can go are up or sideways.
Paramount Member	Sat Oct 09 09:15:59 All the US has got to do is to kill off the zionazi ultra-nationalistic regime in Israel. Kill them all and let God sort them out. Then it will be peace.
Garyd Member	Sat Oct 09 09:34:49 Nope then the crazies will just start bombing and carrying on some where else. It won't change a damn ting.
Garyd Member	Sat Oct 09 09:38:42 Oh except the location of the shit storm...
Paramount Member	Sat Oct 09 09:45:21 If I were the USA I would tell Israel that enough is enough now, and then I would kick them out from the occupied territories.
Garyd Member	Sat Oct 09 10:03:14 yeah right we are going to pick a fight with people with Nuclear weapons that could make the whole area uninhabitable for at least a few decades. Hmm wait a minute you just might be onto something...
Forwyn Member	Sat Oct 09 12:01:24 You don't think that with the US' projection power, they couldn't neutralize nuclear sites with a surprise attack?
Harof Member	Sat Oct 09 23:10:02 "Another option was to demand that the United Nations place the Palestinian territories under an international mandate, AFP reported." Did they also request the british to take charge of that mandate?
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Sat Oct 09 23:21:02 All disputes among nations should be solved by nuclear bombardment. Eventually, there will be no one left alive to cause this shit, and the earth will be at peace.
Asgard Member	Sat Oct 09 23:39:09 "Not even the UN can do any worse a job of running the place than Abbas and his predecessors have" Abbas does an excellent job. Terrorism is down to a minimum and the WB economy is booming. If the UN rules instead in their own mandate, they will harbour terrorists and give them unlimited support when no one is looking, just as they do in Lebanon with UNIFIL.
Rugian Member	Sun Oct 10 00:14:21 Yeah I don't know how you can seriously claim that the UN could do no worse than Abbas. The PLA can order crackdowns on local trouble groups when they want to. UN blue helmets are gutless neutered pussies who would never be able to use such ruthless tactics. Watch the West Bank fall to utter anarchy within months of their takeover.
Nimatzo Member	Sun Oct 10 01:01:11 You are wrong and confusing UN peace keeping missions with a UN administration of a region. They are not the same thing. What Abbas proposes would make the UN the sovreign of the territories for the duration of the mandate. Clearly the UN would be working with the PA the big difference would be that Israeli trangressions would now be against, well the rest of the world and not disenfranchised fragmented patches of land. It actually is a very smart thing as it would make things very difficult for Israel.
Nimatzo Member	Sun Oct 10 01:08:26 In fact the UN has done such things only a 4-5 times and they have been very succeful. It jas effectivly put a direct end to the underlying conflict. Examples are Kosovo and East Timor.
garyd Member	Sun Oct 10 01:22:56 And how did they do that?
Harof Member	Sun Oct 10 12:54:35 "Examples are Kosovo" Hilariously that is one of the best examples.
Nimatzo Member	Sun Oct 10 13:03:26 Hilariously they all worked out. I believe the cost of attacking a UN protectorate is too heavy for any country but the truly insane.
Aeros Member	Sun Oct 10 13:20:37 Nimatzo does make a good point. If the West Bank falls under UN Administration, UN Forces would be obligated to prevent further encroachment along the demarcation line. In theory, they would also have the authority to evict the settlers as well. If Israel chose to fight with UN forces, the Security Council would have no choice but to authorize military intervention.
Aeros Member	Sun Oct 10 13:23:33 The French are also making noises to that effect incidentally. The fact is, these shenanigans have gone on for a half century, and that is far too long. If the two sides can't come to an agreement, then the interests of international stability require the UN to impose a settlement on the parties. http://www...-of-palestinian-state-1.318228 Report: France 'won't rule out' UN creation of Palestinian state French FM Bernard Kouchner says that France prefers a two-state solution negotiated with Israel but the option of UN Security Council action remains on the table. French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner has said that it is impossible to rule out the option of the United Nations Security Council creating a Palestinian state, French news agency AFP on Sunday quoted a Palestinian newspaper as saying. According to the report, Kouchner told the Al-Ayyam newspaper that France prefers a two-state solution negotiated with Israel but that the Security Council option remains on the table. "We want to be able to soon welcome the state of Palestine to the United Nations," Kouchner is quoted as saying. "This is the hope and the desire of the international community, and the sooner that can happen the better. The international community cannot be satisfied with a prolonged deadlock. I therefore believe that one cannot rule out in principle the Security Council option." Kouchner and his Spanish counterpart Miguel Moratinos arrived in Israel on Sunday for talks on the peace process. The two are pushing French President Nicolas Sarkozy's idea of a summit in Paris later this month between Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. On Sunday evening, Kouchner visited the tent set up by captive Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit's parents outside the prime minister's residence in Jerusalem. Shalit is a dual Israeli-French citizen. On Saturday, an Abbas aide to Abbas said that Abbas has told Arab leaders he may seek United States recognition for a Palestinian state, which would include all of the West Bank, should peace talks with Israel break down. The idea, raised during Arab League deliberations in Libya on Friday, would place new pressure on Israel to extend a recently expired freeze on construction of settlements in the West Bank - a Palestinian condition for continuing recently relaunched direct peace negotiations. Senior Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said "alternatives" to the face-to-face talks launched at the start of September had been discussed, among them "ask(ing) the United States to recognize the state of Palestine on the 1967 borders." "[Another] is to study the possibility of going to the [United Nations] Security Council to get a resolution that calls upon member states to recognize the state of Palestine on the 1967 borders," he told Reuters by telephone from the Libyan town of Sirte.
Harof Member	Sun Oct 10 14:04:38 "Hilariously they all worked out." Only for those who are seriously into black humor. "UN Forces would be obligated to prevent further encroachment along the demarcation line. In theory, they would also have the authority to evict the settlers as well." Rofl.
Aeros Member	Sun Oct 10 14:49:13 Why the ROFL? All the the US has to do is abstain from a SC resolution giving peacekeepers the authority to enforce the border. If Netenyahu turns down Obama's VERY generous deal, he very well face that abstention.
Paramount Member	Sun Oct 10 14:58:38 "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001
Asgard Member	Sun Oct 10 15:00:07 The only duty they'll do right is rape. The other they'll do wrong (that is, do) is help smuggling in weapons and hiding wanted terrorists who even admit to have killed Israeli citizens from the IDF. Again, all examples taken right from UNIFIL.
Asgard Member	Sun Oct 10 15:01:06 Paraidiot, don't bother sourcing made up quotes, it makes it look more real.
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Sun Oct 10 15:07:57 The Zog Machine already controls most of the world though, and therefore the UN security council could never pass such a resolution
Asgard Member	Sun Oct 10 15:12:14 I like you, Cthulhu, you should post more.
Canadian Member	Sun Oct 10 16:09:55 He already does, I just lost track of all the multies he uses. Care to refresh my memory?
Harof Member	Sun Oct 10 17:03:27 "Why the ROFL?" I'm sorry. I thought you were joking. "giving peacekeepers the authority to enforce the border" That sentence is an oxymoron. A peacekeeper has not authority and does not enforce.
Forwyn Member	Sun Oct 10 18:29:00 In this case and in most, peace depends upon defined borders.
Aeros Member	Sun Oct 10 18:47:49 The Peacekeepers would probably be drawn from Europe, and not Africa though. I'm sure it would go over like roses if Israel tried to get in a fight with the Irish Army for example. Forwyn has nailed it on the head. The issue is about borders. Neither side is willing to accept the current borders, and won't negotiate. As both Israel and Palestine are UN constructs, it is the responsibility of the UN to set the borders.
Asgard Member	Sun Oct 10 18:49:00 " The issue is about borders. " Nooooo... the heck are you saying!? Did you think of this all by yourself??
Asgard Member	Sun Oct 10 18:50:14 " As both Israel and Palestine are UN constructs" Just shut up. Shut up. Shut the fuck up. Your idiocy in not welcome. How is Palestine a UN creation if they rejected the UN partition plan? SHUT UP.
Aeros Member	Sun Oct 10 18:53:37 I've been thinking about it for the last 10 years since these latest rounds of back and forth started. The fact of the matter is the Israeli government has repeatedly pushed its territory of control beyond the demarcation line, and has abused its authority as an occupying power for the purposes of seizing territory. This policy has made it impossible to settle the issue. Even worse (in my view) is the massive blow this is doing to US prestige. We've protected your countries sorry ass for a long time, and gratitude we get is to be ignored. Netanyahu had the US President offering him everything short of New York City last week if he would just halt the damn settlements, and he could not even do that. Perhaps he thinks the Tea Party idiots will be able to keep the US Government from making the hard decisions, like deciding that maybe the issue with resolving the problems does not lie with the Palestinians, but instead lies with the Israelis.
Aeros Member	Sun Oct 10 18:58:06 Fuck, Ariel Sharon understood this, and he was the worst enemy the Palestinians ever had. That did not stop him from throwing the Settlers out of Gaza. Shame he died so soon, we may not have ended up with the stooge you call Prime Minister now.
Adolf Hitler Member	Sun Oct 10 18:58:31 Is it even physically possible at all to disagree with asgard without him shouting 'shut. up. just. shut. up. shut. shut. shut. up. SHUT. UP.'?
Asgard Member	Sun Oct 10 19:08:25 "The fact of the matter is the Israeli government has repeatedly pushed its territory of control beyond the demarcation line," And when Barak offered Arafat 99% of the occupied territories back save a few big settlements that literally can't be uprooted, and to have the refugees back, they refused. Takes two to tango. This point marked Israel's sharp turn right and the death of the Israeli left, I'm afraid. "Is it even physically possible at all to disagree with asgard without him shouting 'shut. up. just. shut. up. shut. shut. shut. up. SHUT. UP.'? " Shut up. And Aeros is an idiot, so that should not be much of a debate.
Asgard Member	Sun Oct 10 20:10:48 Actually, No2 has always been and always will be Patrick McGoohan.
Nimatzo Member	Mon Oct 11 04:22:21 Well Arafat is dead and the problem remains. Surely Israel who judging by anything likes Abbas and the PA better than Hamas must understand that they are undermining Abbas' support and driving the palestinians into the arms of Hamas. You already did this once and they won the election.
eds Member	Mon Oct 11 04:28:50 This is great. The PA finally realizes the way to force Israel's hand is to unilaterally declare a state on borders everyone in the world (but Israel) recognizes. I've been advocating this for years, this is awesome.
Nimatzo Member	Mon Oct 11 05:14:15 That would put in a state of war with Israel, so that really does nothing for peace. It's key that the become a UN protectorate. That way the UN forces have to safeguard their sovereignty.
Harof Member	Mon Oct 11 14:12:37 "I've been thinking about it for the last 10 years since these latest rounds of back and forth started." And you reached the conclusion the UN would enforce a resolution? With armed soldiers? Really? May I suggest you stop thinking and do something you're good at? "The PA finally realizes" Because we haven't been hearing this "threat" for years. No sir, this is brand new.
Paramount Member	Mon Oct 11 14:19:31 "That would put in a state of war with Israel, so that really does nothing for peace." The world would then be obliged to assist Palestine if Israel attacked them. We would have a legitimate chance to nuke Israel.
Forwyn Member	Mon Oct 11 14:19:52 What would be your next move if you were PM, Harof?
Nimatzo Member	Mon Oct 11 14:30:42 He would just kill all the Palestinians no doubt.
Harof Member	Mon Oct 11 14:31:18 Freeze settlements for another 6 months as a time frame for a solution. The border is not the issue. Israels existence is the issue. We'd talk for a while and after the talks collapse because there will not be a right of return, nor will Fatah ever recognize Israel, we get back to step one. If we somehow reach a peace deal- I'd be glad to be proven wrong. That is until the Palestinian-Israeli war.
Harof Member	Mon Oct 11 14:32:41 "He would just kill all the Palestinians no doubt." Only those who don't know how to swim
Adolf Hitler Member	Mon Oct 11 14:34:25 Any guy who says "The border is not the issue. Israels existence is the issue. " or "The border is not the issue. Palestines existence is the issue" is the cause of the problem, right there, and cannot be dealt with peacefully.
Rugian Member	Mon Oct 11 14:43:34 AH: It's a legitimite concern. Most people who support a two-state solution believe that if a Palestinian state with 1967 borders was made independent, then the whole conflict would end. If, on the other hand, you believe that the declaration of an independent Palestinian state would not bring an end to the war because every major Palestinian organization rejects the idea of a Jewish state existing on the land formerly known as the geographical unit of "Palestine," you are hardly being unrealistic.
Harof Member	Mon Oct 11 14:46:38 Anyone who calls himself Adolf Hitler cannot be dealt with peacefully. Even if he happens to be retarded. " "The border is not the issue. Palestines existence is the issue"" That makes no fucking sense you good for nothing excuse for a troll.
Rugian Member	Mon Oct 11 14:50:17 Oh, I didn't even see that he substituted "Israel" for "Palestine." My bad.
Adolf Hitler Member	Mon Oct 11 14:58:05 I cant see how its a legitimate concern, i.e. a just concern to only care about one side and think that that position has any hope in hell of bringing peace. Standing as an outsider with no reason to hold prejudiced favor for any side, nor any reason to accept as legitimate that one people should demand and have the feudal right to dominate and rule another people, it seems obvious, indisputable in fact, that the dominated people would feel exactly the same way as americans would feel if another country ruled over them and harshly militantly at that, e.g. that they are enslaved and would rather die fighting than live that way. I honestly dont think many people think that things would be great overnight with a 2 state solution at all. I certainly dont. It would quieten things down to a degree, and give Israel more legitimacy and Pal terrorists less legitimacy, even among their own people, which is a good start. Violence is a spiral, and it spirals upwards or downwards. Aggressive rhetoric weakens and gets less support when people have less to be angry about. Personally, I think there should only be one state in that region, but thats a century away.
Adolf Hitler Member	Mon Oct 11 15:00:00 I posted a correct and legitimate comment harof. All you had was stupidness in return, so you're just a dumb waste of time.
Adolf Hitler Member	Mon Oct 11 15:02:53 Harof: "all that matters is us" Me: "that is of course never going to lead to peace, nor is it morally defensible" Harid: "waaaaa you suck waaaaaaaa"
Harof Member	Mon Oct 11 15:07:23 "I cant see how its a legitimate concern, i.e. a just concern to only care about one side" So you think its a border thing i.e only tending to the Palestinian demand? I can see how that isn't hypocritical. Also, please stop snorting clay, you're hallucinating.
Adolf Hitler Member	Mon Oct 11 15:09:20 "So you think its a border thing i.e only tending to the Palestinian demand? " what? yeah, youre dumb
Adolf Hitler Member	Mon Oct 11 15:11:29 Harof: 'The only thing thats important is us, and demanding we stop enslaving a people is just catering only to their demands' Thats seriously what you are saying. Racial supremacist twat.
Forwyn Member	Mon Oct 11 15:12:01 Whats the Israeli demand again? That extremists stop being extreme? Well, you can solve that with white phosphorus, I suppose...
Harof Member	Mon Oct 11 15:15:35 AH, you ought to reread Rugians post. Maybe it'll help your comprehension. Might help you stop embarrassing yourself.
Harof Member	Mon Oct 11 15:17:57 "Whats the Israeli demand again?" recognition. No sense in going to 67' if the next day Palestinians start demanding 48'. Calling Tel-Aviv an occupied territory and what-not.
Adolf Hitler Member	Mon Oct 11 15:18:02 just slit your throat, you fucking idiot troll. I began debating and you threw a tantrum immediately. Yeah, you are right at the cause of all that never ending bad blood and war. Youre ignored now.
Forwyn Member	Mon Oct 11 15:20:56 If the Palestinians started demanding '48 after Israel was finally given an international sense of legitimacy for acquiescing and returning to '67, they would have much more support in their counter-terrorism efforts.
Harof Member	Mon Oct 11 15:21:44 " I began debating " AH "you are the cause of the problem, right there, and cannot be dealt with peacefully. " That is some debating you had going on there, you illiterate monkey.
Adolf Hitler Member	Mon Oct 11 15:26:26 "If the Palestinians started demanding '48 " Huh? 67 is a more generous deal for Israel than 48.
Harof Member	Mon Oct 11 15:29:24 "they would have much more support in their counter-terrorism efforts. " You mean the same way the Gaza operation was supported?
Forwyn Member	Mon Oct 11 15:33:36 Read it again AH. A 6 month lull in conflict is hardly a a true compromise, Harof, and does little to nothing to help the international image of either side, which returns us to my last post.
Adolf Hitler Member	Mon Oct 11 15:34:29 Oh ok.
Adolf Hitler Member	Mon Oct 11 15:35:53 Yeah, returning to 67 is still very generous since it accepts Israeli conquest of land.
Forwyn Member	Mon Oct 11 15:35:54 But my bad, they = Israel, obviously.
Harof Member	Mon Oct 11 15:45:05 "A 6 month lull in conflict is hardly a a true compromise," I don't see how it isn't. They want it gone, I want it to stay- I say we don't build while we talk and reach an agreement. If there were talks while there was building, no reason for refusing now on grounds of it existing. "returning to 67 is still very generous since it accepts Israeli conquest of land. " You seriously need to read entire posts.
Canadian Member	Mon Oct 11 15:52:34 1) '67 is going to have to happen. All settlements will have to be dismantled and those settlers returned to Israel. To not do so would essentially retroactively endorse Israel's illegal action in bringing in the settlers in the first place (initially, they were only brought in small amounts into militarized settlements to occupy strategic points in the West Bank and Gaza by Labour, but later widespread settlement was allowed by Likud). 2) However, in exchange for this, the Palestinians will have to accept that right to return is not possible. Israel should either provide the settler housing to the Palestinian refugees as compensation for their land. Or if the Israelis do what they did in Gaza and demolished the settler homes, some simple cash/goods compensation would be in order. 3) Some type of security arrangement will have to be worked out to snuff out Palestinian terrorism in a new state, as the PA would probably be too weak and fractious to stop rockets/other attacks, especially from the start. This would involve in part moving the border fence to the '67 border.
Harof Member	Mon Oct 11 15:59:55 " All settlements will have to be dismantled " Not necessarily. Israeli-Palestinian agreement exists that the big settlement blocks remain and replaced with a land-swipe. "However, in exchange for this, the Palestinians will have to accept that right to return is not possible." No agreement has been reached on this subject. Ever. "Some type of security arrangement will have to be worked out" That has been discussed and drafts exist to much detail. A Palestinian official acceptance to the 67' border would be crucial but as likely to happen as relinquishing the RoR.
Nimatzo Member	Mon Oct 11 16:00:27 You really are a fucking idiot Harof, you reflect very well all that is wrong with Israel. Idiots like who don't understand that those settlements will have to go sooner or later. Even if the peace process takes another 50 years those settlements will have to go. Yea lets freeze the colonization for 6 months and at first sign of trouble, let's make thing worse by start colonizing again. How do you live with being such a short sighted idiot? I mean how does it feel to be such a failed country that the only reason you survive is through the "good grace" of the worlds only super power? I mean even someone as dumb as you has to understand that the only reason your shit for brains country is still around, being allowed to behave like it's run by cave men with downs syndrome is because a giant cave bear is standing behind you.
Nimatzo Member	Mon Oct 11 16:06:35 There can be no peace with Israel until it is either defeated or dropped from the USA's retainer. It is unfortunate for everyone, but Israel has been killing and bombing it's shitty neighbors and winning for so long making them impossible to deal with. We just have to stick around until Iran gets a couple of nukes, shift the balance of the ME and we will see what happens then. Until then people with the mind set of Harof can sit in their castle and annex pieces of the west bank, bitching about the occasional arrows that land in the court yard.
Harof Member	Mon Oct 11 16:08:16 Your rage tantrum gives me great pleasure and I hope you will continue to post more blocks of text. When you feel like being an adult and use reason, I might be bothered to counter argue. Seriously: "Yea lets freeze the colonization for 6 months and at first sign of trouble, let's make thing worse by start colonizing again" Did I say that? No I did not. Did you bother thinking? No, you didn't. And look, its followed by your much more logical reasoning of mass murder fueled by your hatred and dementia.
Canadian Member	Mon Oct 11 16:29:09 "Not necessarily. Israeli-Palestinian agreement exists that the big settlement blocks remain and replaced with a land-swipe." - A large problem with this is that some of the settlement blocks exist above the relatively rare aquifers in the region. Any land swap would force Israel to give up either the waters of the Jordan, or access to its own aquifers. "No agreement has been reached on this subject. Ever." - Yup, and the moderate Palestinians will need to be supported against the extremists in this regard. "That has been discussed and drafts exist to much detail." - Good to know. "A Palestinian official acceptance to the 67' border would be crucial but as likely to happen as relinquishing the RoR." - I'd find the acceptance of the '67 borders far more likely than the acceptance of the RoR, as the latter involves a lot of people with history, the former involves land. Solutions to issues involving people will always be more complicated than solutions to issues with land.
Harof Member	Mon Oct 11 16:38:21 "A large problem with this is that some of the settlement blocks exist above the relatively rare aquifers in the region. Any land swap would force Israel to give up either the waters of the Jordan, or access to its own aquifers." Supposedly they reached an agreement on the issue. Water, as important as they may be, can be imported from Turkey, if it ever came to be *the* issue. "- Yup, and the moderate Palestinians will need to be supported against the extremists in this regard. " I would truly love to believe that the moderate Palestinian supports relinquishing the ROR for peace. Well, I guess the same can be said of Israelis. "- I'd find the acceptance of the '67 borders far more likely than the acceptance of the RoR" Accepting 67' means relinquishing 48', which is awfully similar to relinquishing the RoR. The odds of either are slim, to say the least.
Adolf Hitler Member	Mon Oct 11 16:43:01 "A Palestinian official acceptance to the 67' border would be crucial but as likely to happen as relinquishing the RoR." Crucial? Its a fucking gift that the Israelis should be damned grateful for since it is illegal conquest, conquest ironically enough being made illegal as a result of the Jews worst enemies. The deal, in a just scenario should be that Israel gets to keep the 67 borders ONLY if they cease their settling, if they dont its back to 48.
Harof Member	Mon Oct 11 16:46:11 Back to trolling huh? At least you do what you do best. Even if it is laughably bad.
eds Member	Mon Oct 11 16:52:19 ""The PA finally realizes" Because we haven't been hearing this "threat" for years. No sir, this is brand new." Hey you know what's funny? Even if you were right about this, it added absolutely nothing to the discussion. Way to go? PS - Saying it's about Israel's existence is a total cop out. But you know that. Must feel good knowing the only Americans on your side are: a) American Jews (no surprise here) b) Ignorant, typically Christian fundamentalist crazies. c) Prejudice Americans who just hate Ay-rabs and Muslims. You keep yourself in good company.
Harof Member	Mon Oct 11 16:56:34 "it added absolutely nothing to the discussion" It doesn't make you wonder about the validity of the threat? Ok... "PS - Saying it's about Israel's existence is a total cop out. " Maybe if you are an idiot named eds. Hey, that would explain a lot.
Asgard Member	Mon Oct 11 17:06:43 " if they dont its back to 48." The Pals rejected 48 to begin with. Mind you.
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