Utopia Talk / Politics / Justice

Muslim Member	Sat Apr 10 01:05:37 Is a system of Justice, which makes it impossible for those under its sway to adhere to or fulfill, a Just system?
Sam Adams Member	Sat Apr 10 01:17:05 you are probably going to try to use this as an excuse for terrorism, by saying something retarded like "it is impossible for muslims to not blow up children, therefore, the west in unjust in retaliating." or some camelfucking bullshit like that.
Muslim Member	Sat Apr 10 01:24:41 Well?
Sam Adams Member	Sat Apr 10 01:27:44 am I not correct? anyway, you lose twice because no human action is impossible.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Apr 10 01:30:15 i should say 'action of the human mind' or 'human decision'.
Madc0w Member	Sat Apr 10 01:30:15 People do have influence on the justice system.
Muslim Member	Sat Apr 10 01:30:30 Ha?
Muslim Member	Sat Apr 10 01:30:31 Ha?
Muslim Member	Sat Apr 10 01:31:49 Very well, let me rephrase. If God creates a system of Justice, that is impossible for humans to adhere to or fulfill, has He created a Just system?
Sam Adams Member	Sat Apr 10 01:33:37 there is no God. you lose again.
Muslim Member	Sat Apr 10 01:37:01 OK mr adams, we've heard your much appreciated point of view, now moving along.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Apr 10 01:40:41 rofl, once you start using childs fairy tales, your post clearly was not meant to have any value.
Samantha Adams Member	Sat Apr 10 01:43:51 If there was a god, those 4 black men wouldn't have held me down and raped. I am scarred for life, and I am too scared to have faith in anything.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Apr 10 01:47:01 facts>faith probability>faith thinking>faith you lose again, muslim.
Isaksson Member	Sat Apr 10 01:50:39 Muslim, of God created a system that is impossible to fulfill such as the Torah, you cannot deny his purpose with His Son, to redeem those who are under the Law. Faith in Jesus is something everyone can have!
Isaksson Member	Sat Apr 10 01:52:06 For the law brings about wrath. For how would God judge the world if there wasn't any law?
Madc0w Member	Sat Apr 10 02:00:44 "If God creates a system of Justice, that is impossible for humans to adhere to or fulfill, has He created a Just system?" Well then who would you be to question the god you believe in? Don't Muslims believe that everything God does is flawless? And don't you also believe that you can fulfill that system of Justice by abiding by the practices of Islam? Although I don't know why you ever post these threads, seeing as how usually the only responses you get are Sam Adams' flames.
Isaksson Member	Sat Apr 10 02:06:56 To expand my answer: The law was given so that the world may become guilty before God. For how else would he judge the world. He cannot judge the world if we don't know what we have done wrong! So the Law brings forth repetance, repetance to whom? - to God! as he freely forgives our iniquties. Shall we then continue to Sin that grace might about. Certaintly Not. We stand firm, by faith, in him who cleanses us from Sin. So that it's no longer i who do the sin, but sin that dwells in me. Can I then blame sin for my errors. No! But the seperate the sin from the carnal human that I am, by I can be cleansed from Sin. And this seperation between sin and the body, is made through that fullfillment - Through relise that sin and I am a part from eachother so that an atonment sacrifice can atone those sins!
Isaksson Member	Sat Apr 10 02:07:59 What happnad to my privious msg, Who perverted it?
Isaksson Member	Sat Apr 10 02:11:55 Let me clarify That msg so it is without human errors, such as typos and grammatic errors. Shall we then continue in sin so that grace might abound. Certaintly Not, we stand firm, by faith, in him who cleanses us from sin. So that it's no long i who do the sin, but sin that dwells in me. Can i then blame sin for my errors. Yes! But to seperate the sin from the carnal human that i am by him who cleanse us from sin - I can the put away sin and continue my life in God.
Muslim Member	Sat Apr 10 02:12:11 Question: If God creates a system of Justice, that is impossible for humans to adhere to or fulfill, has He created a Just system?
CrownRoyal Member	Sat Apr 10 02:13:21 KFC Double Down > faith.
Isaksson Member	Sat Apr 10 02:26:31 Muslim. Yes he has, for how else would he judge the sinner? Abraham was justified past tense before the Law, through his faith, yet the law was given so that he could judge the sinner so that the sinner would rely upon His mercy! May i ask, who are you to reply against God! Will you say to him who formed you, way have you made me like this? The law was given to Jews as guidance on what you cannot do. Jesus guide you to what you can do. So that the law stimulates the sin, and gives birth to death, because sin takes advantage by the law, and produces death in me through what was good. The law is holy but it cannot save us from Sin it only gives guidence on repentence to God, our faith. Notice two things in the law: 1.Never does it say that we are saved by good deeds! - 2. it only reveals what we ought not to do! Jesus fullfilled the law by doing the deeds of God so that we might walk in them through our faith! So it is out of faith we are saved, rams and bulls could not wash away sin, but Jesus who claimed to fulfill the law, the same fulfillment we have faith in, could!
Madc0w Member	Sat Apr 10 02:33:52 "KFC Double Down > faith. " Nah, I'd rather be a Scientologist than eat that shit.
Muslim Member	Sat Apr 10 06:10:56 @ isaksson The trinitarian dogma states that God created man, and knew he would sin. Before He created man however, He created a system of Justice that damns all mankind for the sin of their forefather (Adam), and gave them no way of finding redemption. So He basically damned all mankind before they were even born. The trinitarian dogma further states that God became a man, and sacrificed Himself, in order to redeem those who believe in this sacrifice. Why? Because man had no avenue, of his own, to earn God's forgiveness. According to the trinitarian dogma, God created Justice and made it impossible for man to uphold it. He then killed Himself, after becoming a man, to allow man to uphold it. So what if He didn't sacrifice Himself? Was man eternally damned, living under a system which the Creator of said system made impossible for him to uphold? What of those who lived before the Sacrifice? Were they all damned, under a Justice system that God made impossible for them to uphold? Is this a Just creation?
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Sat Apr 10 06:40:36 'Very well, let me rephrase. If God creates a system of Justice, that is impossible for humans to adhere to or fulfill, has He created a Just system?' I assume you refer to that ongoing joke where Religions tell you that perfectly natural thought processes that have evolved over millions of years are sinful? I do not believe in God, but if he really does exist, he clearly created the rules with the express purpose of having an endless supply of torture victims in hell.
Isaksson Member	Sat Apr 10 07:14:55 Lets look over this now when i got time! "Justice that damns all mankind for the sin of their forefather (Adam), and gave them no way of finding redemption. " Juctice came with Gods commands. For i delight in the law of God according to the inward man, but i see another law warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me to captivity to the law of sin that is in my members. "So He basically damned all mankind before they were even born." God forms every man from the womb. Some are there for dishonor and some are there for honor. "The trinitarian dogma further states that God became a man, and sacrificed Himself, in order to redeem those who believe in this sacrifice. Why? Because man had no avenue, of his own, to earn God's forgiveness." I see what you are saying, but the thing is, He sent his Son to die for our sins as an atonment sacrifice. Do you agree that the Word of God is almighty? Yes? No not? It did create the world! Did it not? Clause 1. "Then the word of the Lord came to me saying" Clause 2. "Then the word of the Lord came to me a second time saying" - The word can speak, all attributes of a person. And finally 3. "And the Word was made flesh and made his dwelling among us" The word did create the world, and is thus almighty - only God is almighty. Thus the Word is God. But wait!!! The Word can speak- It is thus a person. "... We seen his glory, as the glory of the only begotten Son who came from the Father" Moreover the Word is adressed as the LORD! "Then the Word of the Lord came to me saying - 'Thus says the LORD...' God sent his only begotten Son to die for our sins as an atonment sacrifice. Abraham believed God and it acconted him for righteousness. What Jesus offers is eternal life by the atonement of mans sins. Or actually what God offers through his Son is eternal life!
garyd Member	Sat Apr 10 07:28:11 And a perfect God would establish a system of Justice that requires less than perfection precisley why?
Muslim Member	Sat Apr 10 07:56:49 @isaksson "God forms every man from the womb. Some are there for dishonor and some are there for honor." So you believe in pre-destination? I can understand why you wouldn't understand what Divine Justice is. @ garyd "And a perfect God would establish a system of Justice that requires less than perfection precisley why?" A "perfect system of Justice" would account for the imperfection of those whom it Judges.
garyd Member	Sat Apr 10 08:08:20 Nope that would be to establish a system that demanded less than perfection. In which case it is not justice but whim. God established his system of justice that he might show forth his mercy and love through his meeting the demands of that justice upon the cross.
Muslim Member	Sat Apr 10 23:21:24 A system of justice demands "justice". If such a system is to be just, it must account for the qualities of those whom it judges. In the case of humans, that would be the fact that they are an imperfect creation. If such a system doesn't account for such things, then it is inherently unjust. And we know that God is not unjust.
Peter Walsh Member	Sat Apr 10 23:25:31 Why would a perfect god make an imperfect creation?
Firestorm Phoenix Member	Sat Apr 10 23:33:58 Shia law is still brutal and disguting, no matter how you try and defend it, Auslim.
Muslim Member	Sat Apr 10 23:48:06 What does that have to do with the price of fish, mr phoenix?
Muslim Member	Sat Apr 10 23:48:27 @ peter walsh That's outside the scope of this discussion. If you want, start a new thread.
garyd Member	Sat Apr 10 23:49:32 It wasn't imperfect whn it was first made Peter. It went South when man exercised his free will in opposition to God. Muslim that is one of the more retarded argments you've managed in a long history of retarded arguments. Basically you are arguing that if one in 4 people commit murder then a pewrfect system of justice would be tolerant of that fact. Absurd on its face.
Muslim Member	Sat Apr 10 23:56:56 "Muslim that is one of the more retarded argments you've managed in a long history of retarded arguments. Basically you are arguing that if one in 4 people commit murder then a pewrfect system of justice would be tolerant of that fact. Absurd on its face." Not at all, you simply misunderstand. This system of justice that I speak of doesn't excuse sin. You are thinking of the trinitarian system, where man is absolved of all sin if he merely *believes* in a sacrifice. That system of justice that I speak of, however, can differentiate between the sin of deliberate murder, and the sin of forgetting a prayer, rather than grouping them all under the same banner.
garyd Member	Sun Apr 11 00:17:13 Sorry, no, 'believe in' doesn't matter. Every devil in hell believes in the miracle of the Christ and it merits them nothing. And whether one beleives in the Sacrifice or not gains him nothing. In true Christianity salvation is an act of God not of man. Thus God Speaking through Paul states "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy." And further "You are saved by Grace, though faith, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, (refering there in to faith). Should God not change your heart you will in the fullness of time find yourself in hell with a lot of other people who thought themsleves God's and were not and they will have this one thing in common. They thought by there works to batter down the gates of heaven and there by gain entrance to that which is freely given to whomever god chooses to give it but denied to all others.
Muslim Member	Sun Apr 11 00:20:03 garyd, I know its hard, but try to stay on topic, theres no need for sunday school rants.
garyd Member	Sun Apr 11 00:22:59 You asked the question I merely answered it.
Muslim Member	Sun Apr 11 00:32:31 You didn't answer anything. In this thread: 1. You have been unable to explain your definition of Justice. 2. You have stated that God has instituted a system of Justice that makes it impossible for those under its sway to uphold. You didn't explain how this is Just. 3. You have stated that this system of Justice "demands perfection" from imperfect creatures. Again, you haven't explained how this is Just.
Camaban Moderator	Sun Apr 11 00:38:22 Bit hypocritical of you to complain about someone doing things like this, isn't it?
Muslim Member	Sun Apr 11 01:55:40 camaban, do you have any opinion on the topic at hand?
Camaban Moderator	Sun Apr 11 02:00:47 Nope. It's two fools arguing over something without the evidence that it even exists. However, I do have strong opinions on hypocrisy, which has become part of the thread. You bitching at someone for avoiding questions is definitely hypocrisy.
Camaban Moderator	Sun Apr 11 02:04:05 *the slightest As far as either of you can prove, your justice systems are nothing more or less than the imperfect work of man.
Cammy Member	Sun Apr 11 02:08:07 Nevermind me. I am just here to spam, as usual and try and derail Muslim's thread.
Camaban Moderator	Sun Apr 11 02:09:34 Not derail. But opportunities to point out that Muslim is a coward and hypocrite should never be avoided.
Muslim Member	Sun Apr 11 03:50:12 The trinitarian concept of Justice is very muddled and confusing. This is as a result of incoherence, baselessness and the attempt to fit a pagan dogma into the confines of the Judaic religion. The concept of justice in Islam, however, is much clearer. It can be summed up in the following Qur'anic verses: ----- And unto Allah belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, that He may reward those who do evil with that which they have done, and reward those who do good with goodness. Those who avoid enormities of sin and abominations, save the unwilled offences - (for them) lo! thy Lord is of vast mercy. He is Best Aware of you (from the time) when He created you from the earth, and when ye were hidden in the bellies of your mothers. Therefor ascribe not purity unto yourselves. He is Best Aware of him who wardeth off (evil). Didst thou (O Muhammad) observe him who turned away, And gave a little, then was grudging? Hath he knowledge of the Unseen so that he seeth? Or hath he not had news of what is in the books of Moses And Abraham who paid his debt: That no laden one shall bear another's load, And that man hath only that for which he maketh effort, And that his effort will be seen. And afterward he will be repaid for it with fullest payment! Qur'an 53:31-41 ----- In these few verses is the concept of Divine Justice made clear. Those who do sin, are punished for their sin. And those who do good, are punished for their good. THIS is Justice. To each according to what he has done.
Muslim Member	Sun Apr 11 03:52:11 *rewarded for their good Sorry for that trinitarian error.
Borthas Member	Sun Apr 11 09:05:39 It's so funny to see Auslim complain about christians when he's a desert moon demon worshipper.
garyd Member	Sun Apr 11 09:37:05 Why is having standards unjust? If murder and lying are wrong, coveting, that is to desire that which is your neighbors, is wrong. It's not that the standards are tough it's that we human beings are too damn selfish for our own good. Hell son even the good things we do we often do for the wrong reasons. You aren't punished for doing good you are punished for doing bad because the good you have done makes you no less guilty of the wrongs you have committed. And we've all done crap we shouldn't have. Your version is no different than what those ultimate pagans the Hindus with there innumerable gods believe. Dharma vs karma. It's not what you've done that matters but how much good and bad you've done. As if doing good could ever make you less guilty of doing bad.
Muslim Member	Mon Apr 12 23:24:37 garyd, I agree with most of what you say. Yes, I agree that doing good does not make your sins less bad. However, why would God record mans sins, and dismiss his good? Is this Just? No, it is Unjust. The Qur'an says: "Allah is never unjust in the least degree: If there is any good (done), He doubleth it, and giveth from His own presence a great reward." Qur'an 4:40 God further says: "That day mankind will issue forth in scattered groups to be shown their deeds. And whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then, And whoso doeth ill an atom's weight will see it then." Qur'an 99:6-8 "We shall set up scales of justice for the Day of Judgment, so that not a soul will be dealt with unjustly in the least, and if there be (no more than) the weight of a mustard seed, We will bring it (to account): and enough are We to take account." Qur'an 21:47 "Then, on that Day, not a soul will be wronged in the least, and ye shall but be repaid the meeds of your past Deeds." Qur'an 36:54 God's JUSTICE demands that ALL our actions be taken into account. Not just our sin. "It's not that the standards are tough it's that we human beings are too damn selfish for our own good." That's precisely the point. In the trinitarian system, there is absolutely no avenue for any self redemption. Yes, we human beings are selfish. The Qur'an is full of references regarding the selfish nature of man, enough to fill many hundreds of volumes. However, the greatest battle is the battle against ones own being, against ones own rebellious self. And we cannot win this battle without God's help: "Nor do I absolve my own self (of blame): the (human) soul is certainly prone to evil, unless my Lord do bestow His Mercy: but surely my Lord is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." Qur'an 12:53 "Your version is no different than what those ultimate pagans the Hindus with there innumerable gods believe." garyd, the last thing a trinitarian such as yourself wants to do is to start comparing similarities to paganism.
Garyd Member	Tue Apr 13 00:10:41 Why do they still send you to jail for robbing a bank if you give some or all of the proceeds to charity? The Trinitarian view point is that there is one God, who reveals different facets of his nature to us at different times and places because the sum total of his infinite being is so far beyond our comprehension that we would simply be unable to deal with it. Sill at times it doesn't help a lot because infinity divided by three is still a very big number indeed.
Firestorm Phoenix Member	Tue Apr 13 07:59:24 Muslim Member Sat Apr 10 23:48:06 What does that have to do with the price of fish, mr phoenix? Muslim Member Sun Apr 11 03:50:12 The trinitarian concept of Justice is very muddled and confusing. This is as a result of incoherence, baselessness and the attempt to fit a pagan dogma into the confines of the Judaic religion. The concept of justice in Islam, however, is much clearer. - My point was proven.
Renzo Marquez Member	Sat Apr 17 09:55:41 For the primitive raghead who is too dumb to figure out how to do this and enjoys being sodomized by wild boars.
Muslim Member	Sun Apr 18 02:04:56 @ garyd "Why do they still send you to jail for robbing a bank if you give some or all of the proceeds to charity?" So now you are trying to explain the divine system of trinitarian justice by referring to the human justice systems. In the trinitarian system of justice, all sin is equal. All sin damns you to hell, no matter what it is. Is this the same with human justice? If I steal 5 cents, is it considered the same by human justice systems if I steal 5 billion dollars? Or if I commit murder? Nope. But such is the case with the trinitarian dogma. There is no differentiation between sin. My sin damns me no matter how small or big it is. In the trinitarian system of justice, stealing a loaf of bread is the same as committing mass murder. Another example. In the human justice system, can my punishment be lessened if I have done good? Certainly. Good character and good deeds are recognised by human justice systems and can infact save me from punishment for many smaller crimes. I can go on and on, and can give many examples of how human justice systems are actually superior in their concept of justice to the trinitarian system. But these few examples suffice.
garyd Member	Sun Apr 18 08:25:04 No Hell is not a one size fits all punishment. It has varying degrees like everything else and the chief punishment isn't the heat...
garyd Member	Sun Apr 18 08:27:51 All sin is ultimately selfishness. No one deserves heaven. And the best of us commit murder in our minds if not in actuality with far more frequency that we will admit even to ourselves.
Renzo Marquez Member	Sun Apr 18 12:02:41 Why didn't you thank me Muslim?
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