Utopia Talk / Politics / 20 More Ways HC Bill Strips Away Liberty

Alex Member	Wed Mar 24 08:11:33 20 Ways ObamaCare Will Take Away Our Freedoms By David Hogberg Sun., March 21, '10 3:24 PM ET With House Democrats poised to pass the Senate health care bill with some reconciliation changes later today, it is worthwhile to take a comprehensive look at the freedoms we will lose. Of course, the overhaul is supposed to provide us with security. But it will result in skyrocketing insurance costs and physicians leaving the field in droves, making it harder to afford and find medical care. We may be about to live Benjamin Franklinâ??s adage, â??People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.â?? The sections described below are taken from HR 3590 as agreed to by the Senate and from the reconciliation bill as displayed by the Rules Committee. * 1. You are young and donâ??t want health insurance? You are starting up a small business and need to minimize expenses, and one way to do that is to forego health insurance? Tough. You have to pay $750 annually for the â??privilege.â?? (Section 1501) * 2. You are young and healthy and want to pay for insurance that reflects that status? Tough. Youâ??ll have to pay for premiums that cover not only you, but also the guy who smokes three packs a day, drink a gallon of whiskey and eats chicken fat off the floor. Thatâ??s because insurance companies will no longer be able to underwrite on the basis of a personâ??s health status. (Section 2701). * 3. You would like to pay less in premiums by buying insurance with lifetime or annual limits on coverage? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer such policies, even if that is what customers prefer. (Section 2711). * 4. Think youâ??d like a policy that is cheaper because it doesnâ??t cover preventive care or requires cost-sharing for such care? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer policies that do not cover preventive services or offer them with cost-sharing, even if thatâ??s what the customer wants. (Section 2712). * 5. You are an employer and you would like to offer coverage that doesnâ??t allow your employeesâ?? slacker children to stay on the policy until age 26? Tough. (Section 2714). * 6. You must buy a policy that covers ambulatory patient services, emergency services, hospitalization, maternity and newborn care, mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment; prescription drugs; rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices; laboratory services; preventive and wellness services; chronic disease management; and pediatric services, including oral and vision care. Youâ??re a single guy without children? Tough, your policy must cover pediatric services. Youâ??re a woman who canâ??t have children? Tough, your policy must cover maternity services. Youâ??re a teetotaler? Tough, your policy must cover substance abuse treatment. (Add your own violation of personal freedom here.) (Section 1302). * 7. Do you want a plan with lots of cost-sharing and low premiums? Well, the best you can do is a â??Bronze plan,â?? which has benefits that provide benefits that are actuarially equivalent to 60% of the full actuarial value of the benefits provided under the plan. Anything lower than that, tough. (Section 1302 (d) (1) (A)) * 8. You are an employer in the small-group insurance market and youâ??d like to offer policies with deductibles higher than $2,000 for individuals and $4,000 for families? Tough. (Section 1302 (c) (2) (A). * 9. If you are a large employer (defined as at least 50 employees) and you do not want to provide health insurance to your employee, then you will pay a $750 fine per employee (It could be $2,000 to $3,000 under the reconciliation changes). Think you know how to better spend that money? Tough. (Section 1513). * 10. You are an employer who offers health flexible spending arrangements and your employees want to deduct more than $2,500 from their salaries for it? Sorry, canâ??t do that. (Section 9005 (i)). * 11. If you are a physician and you donâ??t want the government looking over your shoulder? Tough. The Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to use your claims data to issue you reports that measure the resources you use, provide information on the quality of care you provide, and compare the resources you use to those used by other physicians. Of course, this will all be just for informational purposes. Itâ??s not like the government will ever use it to intervene in your practice and patientsâ?? care. Of course not. (Section 3003 (i)) * 12. If you are a physician and you want to own your own hospital, you must be an owner and have a â??Medicare provider agreementâ?? by Feb. 1, 2010. (Dec. 31, 2010 in the reconciliation changes.) If you didnâ??t have those by then, you are out of luck. (Section 6001 (i) (1) (A)) * 13. If you are a physician owner and you want to expand your hospital? Well, you canâ??t (Section 6001 (i) (1) (B). Unless, it is located in a county where, over the last five years, population growth has been 150% of what it has been in the state (Section 6601 (i) (3) ( E)). And then you cannot increase your capacity by more than 200% (Section 6001 (i) (3) (C)). * 14. You are a health insurer and you want to raise premiums to meet costs? Well, if that increase is deemed â??unreasonableâ?? by the Secretary of Health and Human Services it will be subject to review and can be denied. (Section 1003) * 15. The government will extract a fee of $2.3 billion annually from the pharmaceutical industry. If you are a pharmaceutical company what you will pay depends on the ratio of the number of brand-name drugs you sell to the total number of brand-name drugs sold in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the brand-name drugs in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2.3 billion, or $230,000,000. (Under reconciliation, it starts at $2.55 billion, jumps to $3 billion in 2012, then to $3.5 billion in 2017 and $4.2 billion in 2018, before settling at $2.8 billion in 2019 (Section 1404)). Think you, as a pharmaceutical executive, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 9008 (b)). * 16. The government will extract a fee of $2 billion annually from medical device makers. If you are a medical device maker what you will pay depends on your share of medical device sales in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the medical devices in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2 billion, or $200,000,000. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for R&D? Tough. (Section 9009 (b)). The reconciliation package turns that into a 2.9% excise tax for medical device makers. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 1405). * 17. The government will extract a fee of $6.7 billion annually from insurance companies. If you are an insurer, what you will pay depends on your share of net premiums plus 200% of your administrative costs. So, if your net premiums and administrative costs are equal to 10% of the total, you will pay 10% of $6.7 billion, or $670,000,000. In the reconciliation bill, the fee will start at $8 billion in 2014, $11.3 billion in 2015, $1.9 billion in 2017, and $14.3 billion in 2018 (Section 1406).Think you, as an insurance executive, know how to better spend that money? Tough.(Section 9010 (b) (1) (A and B).) * 18. If an insurance company board or its stockholders think the CEO is worth more than $500,000 in deferred compensation? Tough.(Section 9014). * 19. You will have to pay an additional 0.5% payroll tax on any dollar you make over $250,000 if you file a joint return and $200,000 if you file an individual return. What? You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9015). That amount will rise to a 3.8% tax if reconciliation passes. It will also apply to investment income, estates, and trusts. You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Like you need to ask. (Section 1402). * 20. If you go for cosmetic surgery, you will pay an additional 5% tax on the cost of the procedure. Think you know how to spend that money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9017).
CrownRoyal Member	Wed Mar 24 08:21:42 "20. If you go for cosmetic surgery, you will pay an additional 5% tax on the cost of the procedure." Founding Fathers are spinning in their graves!
ehcks Member	Wed Mar 24 08:22:04 You want to be a greedy bastard? Tough. The people don't agree with you. Try being reasonable.
charper Member	Wed Mar 24 08:26:08 I didnt read beyond "20 More Ways HC Bill " to know this is a list of exactly what habebe hasnt fathomed yet.
charper Member	Wed Mar 24 08:45:03 habebe: "but we give a tiny amount of what is actually needed to tax deductable religious charity and if your illness is not a popular one with the churches, fuck you! See how wonderfully generous we are???"
so what Member	Wed Mar 24 12:40:21 So Alex, when are you putting your weapon obsession to good use and take up arms to fight the Obama worshippers to save the American people?
habebe Member	Wed Mar 24 12:50:54 Charper, What are obsessed with me? This is like the 3rd thread that I am not in and you are responding to what you think I will say. Perhaps if you were not so greedy yourself your conscience would allow you to sleep without drugs.
habebe Member	Wed Mar 24 12:58:22 Even in here you have two different posts almost 20 minutes apart about me, seriouysly dude, get off my dick.
charper Member	Wed Mar 24 13:10:27 Just showing you examples of what you could not believe. Now youve seen them. If you carry on not understanding, then I know youre just denying facts you have now been made aware of.
habebe Member	Wed Mar 24 13:13:38 Your a lost cause. Btw, why don't you compare the amount of money that the US pours into social security vs European countries, you may be surprised.
charper Member	Wed Mar 24 13:22:31 No, see, I have the general views of the entire developed, civilized world minus the religious conservative side of the USA. You don't. You're the lost cause mate.
habebe Member	Wed Mar 24 13:30:55 So you admit that you are not open to new ideas? and you've admitted your dislike of facts and citations before.Think whatever you will, btw, I sleep with no problems, no pangs of conscience keeping me awake.
habebe Member	Wed Mar 24 13:31:25 Either way, sorry for taking this off-topic, I'll stop now.
charper Member	Wed Mar 24 13:34:57 "So you admit that you are not open to new ideas? " Huh? No, Im more open-minded than you lol "and you've admitted your dislike of facts and citations before." Why are you a liar? If you had a real defense, you wouldnt need to lie. "Think whatever you will, btw, I sleep with no problems, no pangs of conscience keeping me awake. " This is indeed the way of the greedy man, (though I've never accused you personally of that, so you can drop that little straw man charade straight away).
Forwyn Member	Wed Mar 24 15:06:56 "You want to be a greedy bastard? Tough. The people don't agree with you. Try being reasonable." Not wanting to be forced to buy an expensive product is greedy and unreasonable? Fuck you asshole.
Alex Member	Wed Mar 24 17:28:25 Forwyn's post is the first intelligent one in this entire thread (besides the OP).
ehcks Member	Wed Mar 24 17:58:34 "1. You are starting up a small business and need to minimize expenses, and one way to do that is to forego health insurance?" If you're your only employee, you have your own insurance. If you have employees, you either have to pay for a portion, or all of, their insurance, or you pay them more so they can buy their own. "3. You would like to pay less in premiums by buying insurance with lifetime or annual limits on coverage?" This isn't something customers do. This is something insurance companies to to ensure a larger profit. " 4. Think youâ??d like a policy that is cheaper because it doesnâ??t cover preventive care or requires cost-sharing for such care?" The largest single reason for this bill at all is to get everyone preventive care coverage. "14. You are a health insurer and you want to raise premiums to meet costs?" If you are, you're a greedy bastard. More?
ehcks Member	Wed Mar 24 17:59:54 "18. If an insurance company board or its stockholders think the CEO is worth more than $500,000 in deferred compensation?" And just a big HAHA at this one.
ehcks Member	Wed Mar 24 18:01:42 "9. If you are a large employer (defined as at least 50 employees) and you do not want to provide health insurance to your employee, then you will pay a $750 fine per employee (It could be $2,000 to $3,000 under the reconciliation changes)." Also that one. Again, you're either directly paying for a portion of your employees' insurance, or you're paying them more outright. Otherwise, they'd be better off not working for you at all.
ehcks Member	Wed Mar 24 18:02:55 Continuation: It's more economically sound for a large company to pay for its employees' insurance than for each employee to pay for their own. Economies of scale.
Mr. Show Member	Thu Mar 25 11:38:43 "Not wanting to be forced to buy an expensive product is greedy and unreasonable?" It's like driving without car insurance. It is unreasonable because instead of mitigating your own risks you are passing that risk off on others.
xyz1 Member	Thu Mar 25 12:37:38 "If you are, you're a greedy bastard." Yes, maintaining financial solvency is such a greedy thing to do...
Chapys Mom New Member	Thu Mar 25 14:00:46 Jesus Christ Charp....STFU YOU ARE ONE BABBLING IDIOT.
Forwyn Member	Thu Mar 25 15:39:17 "It is unreasonable because instead of mitigating your own risks you are passing that risk off on others." Hospitals don't have payment plans?
Mr. Show Member	Thu Mar 25 15:50:23 "Hospitals don't have payment plans?" I should have said "unless you have the means to pay for or borrow enough money to pay for any and all possible healthcare costs you might ever incur, then it is unreasonable because instead of mitigating your own risks you are passing that risk off onto others."
Forwyn Member	Thu Mar 25 16:03:21 "But according to the same Census report, there are 8.3 million uninsured people who make between $50,000 and $74,999 per year and 8.74 million who make more than $75,000 a year." The other uninsured either can't afford it or qualify for medicaid. So again, not unreasonable.
KreeL Member	Thu Mar 25 16:05:44 GOP sour grapes are so cool. My only regret is that republicans should be excluded from the healthcare bill. Talk about a bunch of whiners. How many republicans enjoy social security RIGHT NOW? How many republicans enjoy medicaid RIGHT NOW? Republicans whined for months surrounding those bills, and now we are just seeing more of the same. I chalk it up to ignorance before the facts.
Forwyn Member	Thu Mar 25 16:09:36 If you pay into Social Security and Medicare for 40 years, why wouldn't you collect upon retirement?
KreeL Member	Thu Mar 25 18:40:45 Exactly. Same thing except this is healthcare that will benefit millions upon millions of americans.
Forwyn Member	Thu Mar 25 19:07:10 ~8 million Americans that make under 50k and don't qualify for government aid. In this case they'll still be forced to cough up money they apparently don't have right now, they'll just get a subsidy so they're only coughing up half as much.
Mr. Show Member	Fri Mar 26 09:00:16 "The other uninsured either can't afford it or qualify for medicaid." Having everyone coveredis reasonable. Because like car insurance you are not mitigating your own risk. The fact that people are forced to get it through private insurers as opposed to other ways is a problem.
Hellfire Member	Fri Mar 26 10:52:33 "The fact that people are forced to get it through private insurers as opposed to other ways is a problem." Under the senate bill I believe there will be a non-profit health care option but I don't remember which government entity runs it. But there is an option that isn't strictly private as I understand it.
Forwyn Member	Fri Mar 26 16:18:50 "Having everyone coveredis reasonable." Forcing 32 million financially sound people to get insurance they don't need in the process of forcing the 8 million who actually can't afford it to get it is unreasonable. "Because like car insurance you are not mitigating your own risk." Driving a car on public roads is a choice. "The fact that people are forced to get it through private insurers as opposed to other ways is a problem." They weren't forced, until now.
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