Utopia Talk / Politics / What went wrong?

Cloud Strife Member	Tue Mar 16 13:39:46 Why is there this cultural rift of basic understanding between European and American cultures these days? Europeans completely miss out on the basic incentive based culture of America, and Americans either scoff at or envy the social safety net and consequentially strong government oversight of Europe. There are so many bigger fish to fry... Why do we have to keep trying to prove our respective ways better?
The Children Member	Tue Mar 16 13:47:28 "what went wrong" is about the dumbest thing you have said. It never went wrong. Europe and USA always had a different culture. And always will. So to sum it all up. Nothing went wrong.
charper Member	Tue Mar 16 13:50:09 Core values are diverging more and more between the developed world and the right half of USA. Europe gets on fine with the other hslf of the USA. Also, its BS that its just Europe. Pretty much the entire developed world is sick and tired of the right half of the USA, as is the entire 2nd and 3rd world.
Rugian Member	Tue Mar 16 13:51:05 Europe kind of went completely crazy after WWI and now they're a bunch of pacifistic naive little pleasure-seeking nonentities.
charper Member	Tue Mar 16 13:52:17 The right hslf of Israel and the right half of the USA are pretty much the only ones who like each other. They should make their own religious country somewhere.
Nekran Member	Tue Mar 16 13:52:54 There's a big difference between the petty differences that the populations of the US and the EU have and the relationship the leaders have. When we're honest, we know we're by extremely far eachother's most important allies and that won't be changing in a hurry.
charper Member	Tue Mar 16 13:55:12 But mainly, Bush happened. And that lesson isn't forgotten yet.
habebe Member	Tue Mar 16 13:59:59 I have no problems with Euro's on the whole, every group has a few assholes . Growing up my dad had many Saudi friends, and out of the 10-12 saudis he knew only one was really an ass. The problems generally come from people who like to start trouble because they think they can do no wrong, are in no way greedy, and some sort of gift to the world. Even most Chinese are not like TC.Most Euro's are not like Charper. As Nekran said, in the end we are eachothers best allies.
charper Member	Tue Mar 16 14:03:37 I can do plenty of wrong, plenty - Im just not greedy...I care little for material possessions, an unfathomable concept to this stupid fucking troll lol
charper Member	Tue Mar 16 14:05:03 The US righties certainly aren't our best allies at all. We saw that plenty good during Bush.
charper Member	Tue Mar 16 14:06:38 Anyone got those polls for where the USA was voted greatest threat to world peace during Bush?
Rugian Member	Tue Mar 16 14:07:03 To be fair...we didn't really abandon our allies when they needed us. Granted, we changed the name of french fries when France refused to follow us into Iraq, but if you guys got attacked while Bush was in office we'd likely still have helped you.
habebe Member	Tue Mar 16 14:11:37 " if you guys got attacked while Bush was in office we'd likely still have helped you." No question. We may argue over issues like global warming and such, but I'm very confident that if in case of a war on home soil either side (EU/US) would aid the other as much as they could.
Rugian Member	Tue Mar 16 14:18:29 Can't we IP ban this spammer?
habebe Member	Tue Mar 16 14:23:02 http://www...e-america-it-wants-989653.html From a US perspective though, it does seem IMO that some of Europe is much more involved in wanting the US to to be more like them in general politics, which is looked at with a bit of skeptisism here. The US seems much more concerned about ME/Chinese politics than EU politics. However from the Euro's I've met personally (mostly exchange students) they seemed glad that we are how we are, and vica versa, I'd love to see Europe, and part of that is because they are different.
Prophet Bush Member	Tue Mar 16 19:13:01 'But mainly, Bush happened. And that lesson isn't forgotten yet.' This has got to be most retarded statement I have ever had the severe displeasure of hearing. Bush was a great hero, perhaps the greatest who ever lived. He stood against the evil of Islam, and all of it followers, and if it were not for his grand vision and guidance, you would all be being fucked up the ass by angry mullahs and clerics. PRAISE PROPHET BUSH! HALLOWED BE HIS NAME!
garyd Member	Wed Mar 17 00:03:45 The chief problem most Euro's had with Bush is simply that a reality in which some follwers of Islam truly are dangerous does not fit in well with a world view that procalims the West is basically an evil selfish oligarchy and the USA by dint of it's refusal to accept this supposed fact especially on the right of the political equation, is the most evil of all. Hence idiots like chaper hate the wrong people and view anyone that tries to show them the truth with extreme suspicion if not out right hatred.
Clitoral Hood The Bloody Scourge	Wed Mar 17 02:04:32 I know some rational righties. they also happen to be non-practicing in their religions. way I see it, religion should have ended with the jews. the BS they made up worked out great to keep them alive way back when. why the fuck did some idiot (X2, YA DUMB FUCKS) try to update and improve the god we invented? sort of thing that you look back and say "well, we had good intentions..."
Nekran Member	Wed Mar 17 02:46:21 "The chief problem most Euro's had with Bush is simply that a reality in which some follwers of Islam truly are dangerous does not fit in well with a world view that procalims the West is basically an evil selfish oligarchy and the USA by dint of it's refusal to accept this supposed fact especially on the right of the political equation, is the most evil of all." LOL... yeah you know Europe all right. Damn...
USTARD New Member	Wed Mar 17 03:43:19 "The chief problem most Euro's had with Bush is simply that a reality in which some follwers of Islam" And these danfgerous people were in Iraq planing evil things, we had to invade, Bush was inspired by God!!!
habebe Member	Wed Mar 17 03:49:06 " Bush was inspired by God!!! " Nope you have it backwards, he was inspired by a dog.Checkers rose from the grave and spoke to him.
charper Member	Wed Mar 17 04:05:23 lol...garyduh explains the world...
charper Member	Wed Mar 17 04:46:11 In fact, garyduh, just by sheer manifestation of his presence in this thread, answers the OP.
Alex Member	Wed Mar 17 07:15:52 What went wrong? Europe is full of homos and muslims. That's what went wrong.
Clitoral Hood The Bloody Scourge	Wed Mar 17 11:13:00 "Bush was inspired by God!!!" this makes USTARD a terrorist, right? inspiring terror in others = terrorist after all.
habebe Member	Wed Mar 17 11:22:02 " Europe is full of homos and muslims. " So is the US, so what's the problem?
so what Member	Wed Mar 17 11:58:57 The US has always been more a heterogenous society compared with the European nationstates. It's easier to show solidarity and share with people who are like you than with people who look and talk different. Although unity is a major doctrine in America, people are racists by nature. Now with the increase of immigrants in Europe, you see that the support for such show of solidarity decrease in correlation with the amount of foreign immigrants. Europe is becoming more like America.
Seb Member	Wed Mar 17 13:43:04 Garyd: "The chief problem most Euro's had with Bush is simply that a reality in which some follwers of Islam truly are dangerous" *sigh* Leaving asside from the large generalisations against a substantial fraction of Europes population that would make such a broad brush approach somethign no European government could accept (Demonise a fraction of your citizens on the basis of ethno/religious identity?... yeah... something generally frowned on after WWII), is Islam more dangerous than Communism? NAZIism? Fuck no, take a reality check and get some perspective. "does not fit in well with a world view that procalims the West is basically an evil selfish oligarchy" Which is an entirely fictional world view for the purposes of this conversation, but hey ho... "and the USA by dint of it's refusal to accept this supposed fact especially on the right of the political equation, is the most evil of all." The problem is what msot of Europe assocaites with the West, particularly the universality of the rule of Law, human rights, establishment of international norms and violence as an action of last resort (all of which were pioneered by America, incidentaly) is not what the US Righties consider hall-marks of Western Civilisation (Free Market capitalism, market de-regulation, superiority of WASP values, economic and military superiority as a necessity rather than an emergent benefit). This is exacerbated when combined with a contrarian attitude to foreign relations and a strong belief in American exceptionalism to all things (the great irony is that America ceased to be exceptional when Europe adopted it's ideals after WWII, and is now seeking to demonstrate it's exceptionalism by reverting to the norms of the typical 19th century European great power). so what: It's all about race? The general characterisation of Europe is of a de-militarised socialist state. I don't see how growing miniorities are going to change that view. Equally, growing immigration rather than make people believe that state benefits and entitlements should be devalured, just simply lead to people thinking that these benefits should be ringfenced from immigrants who have to earn such priveledges. As to attitudes to rule of law, consensual decision making etc. on an international setting, again, that has nothign to do with immigration at all.
Seb Member	Wed Mar 17 13:43:34 If you look at it, America is more becoming like Europe, with a growing hostility to immigration which historically it has welcomed.
Seb Member	Wed Mar 17 13:44:28 In terms of international relations, the problem for most Europeans is that America looks increasingly like some 19th century European throwback in it's behvariour... and we already know whwere that leads to.
habebe Member	Wed Mar 17 13:54:50 " If you look at it, America is more becoming like Europe, with a growing hostility to immigration which historically it has welcomed." I think this is passing fad IMO, exacerbated by two major issues. 1) Economics, people see huge unemployment levels and tend to blame it on Mexican immigrants. 2)The cartel wars at the Mexican border are heating up, dozens getting murdered daily, probably more than in Iraq/Afghanistan.
Forwyn Member	Wed Mar 17 14:16:57 "If you look at it, America is more becoming like Europe, with a growing hostility to immigration which historically it has welcomed." Chinese, Irish, laws against SE Europeans, etc. Groups that were coming in in very high rates were never welcomed. Then again, at least those groups tried to adapt to the culture.
Seb Member	Wed Mar 17 14:23:33 Forwyn: Socially, perhaps not welcomed. But there was given far less legal expression than it is now. "Then again, at least those groups tried to adapt to the culture." Spoken like a true frenchman!
Forwyn Member	Wed Mar 17 14:29:45 http://en....United_States_Immigration_Acts I'll admit there weren't talks of building walls with concrete gun nests back then, but illegal immigration wasn't an issue(or considered an issue) back then. But legal immigrants of certain ethnicities were severely restricted. "Spoken like a true frenchman!" Hey, I try.
habebe Member	Wed Mar 17 14:32:07 " But legal immigrants of certain ethnicities were severely restricted. " Not to mention loophole laws, like banning of ponytails, opium being aimed at Chinese laborers. But Seb is right that in general immigration has usually been promoted more than it was argued against.
charper Member	Wed Mar 17 15:18:06 "Chinese, Irish, laws against SE Europeans, etc. Groups that were coming in in very high rates were never welcomed. " Both have belonged to the bottom of societies criminal class as immigrants in different countries, the Irish for centuries in fact. Hint hint geddit? The immigrants in the lowest most ill adapted classes in different countries come from a wide range of different countries, not just niggers and mooslims.
charper Member	Wed Mar 17 15:19:59 What happened to: Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
YouAreFuckingStupid Member	Wed Mar 17 16:40:00 Americans are individualistic, religious, and rugged. Europeans are collective, secular, and sissy.
licker Sports Mod	Wed Mar 17 16:55:41 "What happened to: Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! " They became politicians and dragged the whole country down. Or more seriously, when the country needed bodies that thinking applied. Now that we no longer need an influx of labor (or no longer desire it, either way) it ceases to apply.
habebe Member	Wed Mar 17 16:57:29 Licker, We don't need an influx of labor for the short-term. Long term though we do need it.
licker Sports Mod	Wed Mar 17 16:59:38 Well point is that we don't need tired poor huddled masses as laborers anymore. The economy is in a vastly different place where unskilled labor is essentially useless. At least if you are a legal resident...
habebe Member	Wed Mar 17 17:00:55 True, we need more educated/specialist workers now.
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