Utopia Talk / Politics / HC vote tonight

mexicantornado Member	Sat Nov 07 17:43:28 Call your congressman's office if you want them to vote against it. This is it.
Formerly Fred Member	Sat Nov 07 17:51:18 "Call your congressman's office" The fuck good will that do? I don't own an insurance company.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Nov 07 17:57:10 This guy just said the wor "shall" appears in the bill 3400 times. That is not a misprint.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Nov 07 18:00:38 My favorite is, you shall go to jail unles you purchase insurance. Are we still the land of the Free?
mexicantornado Member	Sat Nov 07 18:04:03 "The fuck good will that do?" What do you think pressuring your congressmen will result in?
Ninja Member	Sat Nov 07 18:05:54 "This guy just said the wor "shall" appears in the bill 3400 times. " Your point being?
Formerly Fred Member	Sat Nov 07 18:06:35 "What do you think pressuring your congressmen will result in?" Nothing. I'm not a jew nor do I own an insurance company that will buy him off.
ehcks Member	Sat Nov 07 18:08:15 Hey Hot Rod. What happens if a cop pulls you over in your car and you have no insurance? It's not just for your own benefit.
Formerly Fred Member	Sat Nov 07 18:13:00 Apples and oranges, ehcks.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Nov 07 18:14:00 Liability insurance is a reasonable law to protect others from you actions. This law is to protect others that you are not responsible for.
ehcks Member	Sat Nov 07 18:17:02 If someone gets injured and has no money to pay the ER bill, who do you think does? If they're on the public option, we still pay, but most likely less because they're more likely to get treated early, before it's severe.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Nov 07 18:19:38 And that is a bad law. As I said, we are not responsible for them. What the government needs to do is fix the present system, not scrap it.
ehcks Member	Sat Nov 07 18:21:03 What present system? I wasn't aware we even had one, which is why this is so important. Letting everyone fend for themselves isn't how a country should work it's health care.
Jack Cafferty Member	Sat Nov 07 18:21:08 "Hey Hot Rod. What happens if a cop pulls you over in your car and you have no insurance? It's not just for your own benefit. " This is completely different. The only thing that is similar is the concept of having insurance or be penalized. This is one part of the HC reformation that I am against. This is am ultimatum that should not be put in place as it is against the principles of your freedom and I am not trying to sound like a 'teabagger'.
ehcks Member	Sat Nov 07 18:22:30 Why would anyone be against this?! How can ANYONE EVER be against the population of their country being guaranteed the right to health care!?
Formerly Fred Member	Sat Nov 07 18:24:24 "Why would anyone be against this?! " Because it forces you to spend $300 a WEEK for insurance or you go to jail??? There are much better ways to deal with this.
Jack Cafferty Member	Sat Nov 07 18:24:40 "If someone gets injured and has no money to pay the ER bill, who do you think does? If they're on the public option, we still pay, but most likely less because they're more likely to get treated early, before it's severe. " But to fine them and/or send them to prison is the better option, especially with our current CJS? "What the government needs to do is fix the present system, not scrap it. " .....They are not scrapping it's a reformation.
Jack Cafferty Member	Sat Nov 07 18:28:07 "How can ANYONE EVER be against the population of their country being guaranteed the right to health care!? " Why are you going to the extreme? This has nothing to do being against having people all on health care. But how this was campaign is that people have a public OPTION. Instead of having the burden to go for private insurances that they couldn't afford the premiums. So for those who are in that sector have the OPTION to get the public insurance. However, they should still have the freedom to not get either insurance.
ehcks Member	Sat Nov 07 18:29:12 Let me clarify this. If someone without insurance gets injured and treated and can not pay, everyone else has to pay more to make up for it. This includes the borderline cases where someone can barely afford their own insurance. Now they can't. Not forcing one guy to get insurance can prevent other people from getting it. No one should EVER be prevented from getting health care.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Nov 07 18:30:59 When the last private insurance company closes it's doors it will be scrapped.
Jack Cafferty Member	Sat Nov 07 18:31:40 "If someone without insurance gets injured and treated and can not pay, everyone else has to pay more to make up for it." Right, but let's be practical, some people are not going to even be able to afford the public option either. And you want to penalize them for that AND/or send them to prison, thus continuing to burden taxpayers? "Not forcing one guy to get insurance can prevent other people from getting it. No one should EVER be prevented from getting health care." This does not make sense to me.
Jack Cafferty Member	Sat Nov 07 18:32:16 "When the last private insurance company closes it's doors it will be scrapped. " But that isn't going to happen.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Nov 07 18:41:47 Query: If an employee is fired or quits does the employer have to report to the government when their insurance runs out or does the government get a report from their own receivable or the insurance company's receivable dept?
mexicantornado Member	Sat Nov 07 18:44:06 god ehcks is fucking stupid. but not surprisingly he is about the only person on this forum, who is an american, that supports this bill.
Formerly Fred Member	Sat Nov 07 18:44:33 Neither. The former employee is immediately eligible for COBRA for something like 15 weeks but the cost is fucking huge.
Jack Cafferty Member	Sat Nov 07 18:50:32 I have a question, if this idiotic concept of fines and/or imprisonment is applied. Who the hell is going to enforce it? Are you going to go to the clinic for a cold or something and then they ask you if you carry insurance and you tell them no. Are they going to call the police? Or will this be part of police protocol now when you get pulled over and asked for license, registration, and car/health insurance? Really, you can't see the problem with this?
mexicantornado Member	Sat Nov 07 18:53:34 They will probably have a giant database and mail out tickets to people who aren't in the database.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Nov 07 18:59:24 The democrats keep cheating by using more time than they are allowed.
mexicantornado Member	Sat Nov 07 19:04:06 Cock suckas
leah horchler Member	Sat Nov 07 19:07:15 Any idea what time the vote is supposed to go down at?
Hrothgar Member	Sat Nov 07 19:40:17 The rest of the 1st world countries and even many developing nations look at US health care private, for profit, insurance company structure and laugh. Then they look at those who cry outrage at efforts toward reform and laugh even harder.
Forwyn Member	Sat Nov 07 19:45:37 Yeah, because the rest of the "first world" has been brainwashed to think that a bunch of power-hungry morons in a government position are better suited to provide services than a bunch of power-hungry morons in a private position.
pillz Member	Sat Nov 07 20:00:19 Yes, obvsiously the US is in the right here, being the only 1st world nation in the world that has private-only HC. fucking idiots. The government should provide healthcare for everyone. If someone wants private insurance that is their right and they can pay for it. The fact you idiots can not understand that this is a better system then your current one is pathetic.
Formerly Fred Member	Sat Nov 07 22:01:14 it passed
Hot Rod Member	Sat Nov 07 22:02:31 Still voting, need1 more votes to pass.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Nov 07 22:08:58 S H I T 218 - 214
Formerly Fred Member	Sat Nov 07 22:09:54 I want to see the names of the dems that voted no.
Y2A Member	Sat Nov 07 22:12:02 1 republican voted yea!
Formerly Fred Member	Sat Nov 07 22:13:13 Yeah, after it was already decided. That wasn't a political move. LOL.
Dukhat Member	Sat Nov 07 22:15:03 It was Cao, stupid RINO. At any rate, you fucking pieces of shit can go fuck yourselves. I am not paying for your goddamn healthcare and will spend the difference in taxes defrauding the system (within legal means) instead of working hard. Watch what happens when those that are taxed revolt.
Y2A Member	Sat Nov 07 22:17:06 I say Cao's vote makes this a bi-partisan bill.
Dukhat Member	Sat Nov 07 22:25:50 Hopefully this is brinksmanship. The senate will filibuster the public option part, the house will pass a bill without the public option and then the senate will pass it giving "blue dogs" cover with their constituencies.
Dukhat Member	Sat Nov 07 22:26:06 Well not hopefully, this bill is sitll a shit sandwich even without the public option.
Y2A Member	Sat Nov 07 22:48:38 lol Cao's wiki page is protected now because of vandalism.
Ninja Member	Sat Nov 07 22:59:12 "the house will pass a bill without the public option" Uhhhh.... didn't the house just pass a bill WITH the public option?
Formerly Fred Member	Sat Nov 07 23:24:06 The legislation would require most Americans to carry insurance and provide federal subsidies to those who otherwise could not afford it. Large companies would have to offer coverage to their employees. Both consumers and companies would be slapped with penalties if they defied the government's mandates. Insurance industry practices such as denying coverage on the basis of pre-existing medical conditions would be banned, and insurers would no longer be able to charge higher premiums on the basis of gender or medical history. In a further slap, the industry would lose its exemption from federal antitrust restrictions on price gouging, bid rigging and market allocation.
Dukhat Member	Sat Nov 07 23:38:44 The healthcare pie is being reapportioned. Trial lawyers get to keep their share. The government gets to keep their share. The poor get their votes bought out and become dependent on the government. And the tax payer will get a double whammy in higher premiums and higher taxes as private entities like insurers and hospitals will have huge cost increases as they have to treat the poor at below cost and pass the buck on to private payers. Fuck you Obama.
river of blood Member	Sat Nov 07 23:48:30 Did they even read the damn thing before voting on it? Hell no. Fucking unbelievable. Where's the blood in the streets?
Pierre Member	Sun Nov 08 06:04:58 heres a education for you... http://www...S/11/08/health.care/index.html The Affordable Health Care for America Act, or H.R. 3962, restricts insurance companies from denying coverage to anyone with a pre-existing condition or charging higher premiums based on gender or medical history. It also provides federal subsidies to those who cannot afford it and guarantees coverage for 96 percent of Americans, according to the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office.
Hot Rod Member	Sun Nov 08 06:15:25 Here is an education for you. The private insurance companies will go out of business, the premiums collected will end up in the General Fund, and this program will end up just as "broke" as Social Security. This will prove to be the biggest rip off in history. So far.
Nimatzo Member	Sun Nov 08 06:19:57 So you right wingers only have a problem with fining people for not having health insurance? Or what is it in this bill that you hate?
river of blood Member	Sun Nov 08 06:33:10 I'm having trouble finding something in it I LIKE. But, yes, I'd say $250,000 fines and 5 years in prison for not being able to afford a mandatory minimum $15,000 health insurance policy is completely outrageous and it's difficult for me to understand why ANYONE thinks this is a good idea.
Nimatzo Member	Sun Nov 08 07:19:23 Yes that sounds very bad, but you mean you don't like the parts where it bans the insurance companies from fucking people over?
Hot Rod Member	Sun Nov 08 07:33:12 "This guy just said the wor "shall" appears in the bill 3400 times." Nimatzo, "shall" means that is what they allow. This is supposed to be a free country, a citizen should not have to have the government allow him 3400 things he *can do* concerning his health needs.
Pierre Member	Sun Nov 08 07:46:33 you could say that for all laws... and say not being allowed to murder and rape people hurts your freedom...
Hot Rod Member	Sun Nov 08 07:49:51 Bullshit, I thought you were a rational debater, but that is nonsense.
leah horchler Member	Sun Nov 08 08:02:09 Women don't report though! Excellent!
Nimatzo Member	Sun Nov 08 08:44:44 >>This is supposed to be a free country, a citizen should not have to have the government allow him 3400 things he *can do* concerning his health needs.<< I have no way to very that claim. I have no way to tell what these "shall" parts refer to in each case. Even so the government tells you what to do on a regular basis. Now, does anyone actually have a real problem with the bill other than the parts where it supposedly forces people to have an insurance or go to jail?
Leah Horchler Member	Sun Nov 08 08:55:29 Increasing the deficit and reducing choice by, in addition to forcing people to buy coverage, crowding out public insurance for two. The insurance companies will have no problems with the end product though. Bank on that. Because the mandates requiring people to buy coverage will still be in there but the public option will not be. And all the tools who support amorphous "reform" while bashing the insurance companies will just keep clapping while they gt fucked and the insurance industry receives massive amounts of corporate welfare.
Nimatzo Member	Sun Nov 08 08:58:22 Reading the bill I have to say that most of uses of the word "shall" in no way supports you Hot Rod. "Nothing in this section >>shall<< be construed as preventing a group health plan from increasing the premiums" "The provisions of section 2703 >>shall<< apply to health insurance coverage offered by a health insurance issuer" "A minor child >>shall<< include any individual who is 21 years of age or younger" Just a few examples so far no person SHALL do anything.
Nimatzo Member	Sun Nov 08 09:08:01 >>Increasing the deficit<< Well there are worse things to spend this money on than providing something that is as basic as food and water for the people. But point taken. >>reducing choice by<< How so? >>in addition to forcing people to buy coverage<< I am trying to find the actual parts in the bill that says this.
Jack Cafferty Member	Sun Nov 08 09:13:36
Nimatzo Member	Sun Nov 08 09:15:28 >>crowding out public insurance for two.<< I missed this, so you are saying that creating competition is bad because it provides you with fewer choices?
Jack Cafferty Member	Sun Nov 08 09:17:34 Dang it! To answer your question, there are some issues I have a problem with. But I also realise that there is and will be no perfect bill, there will always be parts that won't make sense or I wont like, but the overall effect of the bill would be beneficial. Though with this bill and my acknowledgement that we do need health care reform and that this bill is probably one of the better options, but to include the language that requires or is mandatory to have health care or face a fine and/or imprisonment is going to far and makes me hesitant and more inclined to be against this bill.
limousine liberal Member	Sun Nov 08 09:29:38 There is no language however that says in the bill it mandates you to buy any HC or face penalties.
Aeros Member	Sun Nov 08 09:36:08 I believe there is a part of the bill that say's you are automatically enrolled in the Public Option if you don't purchase a private plan. The balance of your premiums would then be assessed in your taxes.
limousine liberal Member	Sun Nov 08 09:38:59 And if you refuse to pay taxes, you get fined or go to jail. Just like it has been happening. But no, somehow you get some stupid, dumbfucking idiot, amazingly equates it as "if you don't buy HC you go to jail" as some type of fear tactic and get you all upset and turn against it.
Formerly Fred Member	Sun Nov 08 09:40:08 There is no Public Option in the bill.
limousine liberal Member	Sun Nov 08 09:42:14 Um....what?
limousine liberal Member	Sun Nov 08 09:43:38 Health care bill passes with public option http://www...bill-passes-with-public-option
Leah Horchler Member	Sun Nov 08 09:47:20 Nimatzo Member Sun Nov 08 09:15:28 "I missed this, so you are saying that creating competition is bad because it provides you with fewer choices?" 1. The mandates contain certain provisions that MUST be in your insurance policy. You lose the freedom to contract regarding such provisions. 2. The playing field is not level. The public option does not have to be run efficiently. It can charge reduced rates and operate at a loss, undercutting private insurance. Additionally, some employers will likely dump their employees onto the public option and pay the fine instead of complying with the mandate. Of course, it doesn't matter because the public option cannot pass the Senate. "I am trying to find the actual parts in the bill that says this." http://rep...oadedFiles/JCTletter110509.pdf I haven't gone through and checked these sections but I would assume that the Chief of Staff of the Joint Commission on Taxation knows his shit since he is the dude who has to answer inquiries from Congress.
Leah Horchler Member	Sun Nov 08 09:48:19 limousine liberal Member Sun Nov 08 09:29:38 "There is no language however that says in the bill it mandates you to buy any HC or face penalties." Yes, there is.
limousine liberal Member	Sun Nov 08 09:49:04 No there isn't I just made a thread about it. Take your little lazy ass and go read. You're done, bye, bye now.
Leah Horchler Member	Sun Nov 08 09:51:43 limousine liberal Member Sun Nov 08 09:49:04 "No there isn't I just made a thread about it. Take your little lazy ass and go read. You're done, bye, bye now." Retard, your own thread proves you wrong. If you don't buy insurance, you have to pay a tax. The tax is a penalty. If you don't pay the tax, you can be locked up.
limousine liberal Member	Sun Nov 08 09:53:57 Which is fucking different than saying that if you DONT BUY ANY HC you go to jail which is what some idiots are saying. It's like other taxes that are taking out of your payroll. If you refuse to pay it or do your taxes at the end of the year. You are going to be penalized or can face imprisonment. No where it says that you must buy HC period or go to jail. You stupid dumb fucking idiot.
Leah Horchler Member	Sun Nov 08 09:56:05 limousine liberal Member Sun Nov 08 09:53:57 "Which is fucking different than saying that if you DONT BUY ANY HC you go to jail which is what some idiots are saying." You said there is NO PENALTY for not buying insurance, you fucking retard.
limousine liberal Member	Sun Nov 08 09:58:34 And you are too stupid to understand the context of what that is referring. Of course if you want to twist my meaning and ignore the topic at hand sure, that would be a way to portray it. But it had nothing to do with what you are doing. It was in response to another poster and I was specifying that there is no language in the bill that requires YOU an individual to buy HC for YOURSELF or face fines or go to jail. You stupid dumb fucking idiot.
Leah Horchler Member	Sun Nov 08 10:00:01 To summarize the last few posts: You said there is no penalty. I said there was. You said I was wrong. I proved that there is a penalty. You got butthurt.
limousine liberal Member	Sun Nov 08 10:00:43 Nope, you are incorrect and a dumb fucking idiot. That is what was established. As I said before, you're done now, bye, bye.
Formerly Fred Member	Sun Nov 08 10:01:56 limousine liberal Member Sun Nov 08 09:42:14 Um....what? limousine liberal Member Sun Nov 08 09:43:38 Health care bill passes with public option http://www...bill-passes-with-public-option An insurance â??exchangeâ?? =/= public option.
Leah Horchler Member	Sun Nov 08 10:02:35 You got PWNED! I did not twist your meaning. I corrected your false statement.
limousine liberal Member	Sun Nov 08 10:04:20 No, you did not. You did twist what I said as it was a response ot a previous poster. You're wrong, again, and a dumb fucking idiot.
limousine liberal Member	Sun Nov 08 10:16:24 Formerly Fred, http://docs.house.gov/rules/health/111_ahcaa.pdf Title III subtitle B
Leah Horchler Member	Sun Nov 08 10:22:38 You said there were no penalties. You were dead wrong.
limousine liberal Member	Sun Nov 08 10:23:38 You can't read in context and see reference. You're a dumb fucking idiot.
Leah Horchler Member	Sun Nov 08 10:24:32 Look at little ll. Can't even admit that she was 100% wrong. What a miserable cunt.
limousine liberal Member	Sun Nov 08 10:26:24 Look at little LH. Dumb fucking idiot can't read.
Leah Horchler Member	Sun Nov 08 10:29:16 I can read. You said there were no penalties. I called you on your lie and you got all pissy.
Nimatzo Member	Sun Nov 08 10:30:19 >>The playing field is not level.<< LOL? Who cares about a leveled playing field when you are talking about the health and well being of people? Besides in a country like Sweden, where I live that has universal health care we STILL have private companies offering health insurance. And these companies and insurances have sprung up WHILE we have had universal health care. Admittedly they are not that popular, but they exist and apparently some people buy them. It is great that people have principles that they like to adhere to, like free and fair market, but something are just more important, important enough to violate principles. It is very easy to stare yourself blind on principles, at some point it becomes retarded and counter productive.
limousine liberal Member	Sun Nov 08 10:31:26 "I can read. You said there were no penalties. I called you on your lie and you got all pissy. " Incorrect, dumb fucking idiot.
Leah Horchler Member	Sun Nov 08 10:32:28 Nimatzo, you understand who ends up paying the loss that the public insurance option will ring up, right? It would cost more and reduce choices in the end. But again, there is no way a public option will get through the Senate. It's not gonna happen.
Leah Horchler Member	Sun Nov 08 10:32:50 limousine liberal Member Sun Nov 08 10:31:26 "Incorrect" Incorrect.
limousine liberal Member	Sun Nov 08 10:33:32 Incorrect.
limousine liberal Member	Sun Nov 08 10:33:58 LH = Dumb fucking idiot.
Leah Horchler Member	Sun Nov 08 10:34:40 Incorrect.
Leah Horchler Member	Sun Nov 08 10:34:55 ll = Dumb fucking idiot nickelswede.
limousine liberal Member	Sun Nov 08 10:35:09 Correct.
limousine liberal Member	Sun Nov 08 10:35:32 :)
Leah Horchler Member	Sun Nov 08 10:35:43 So you admit that you are a dumb fucking idiot nickelswede.
limousine liberal Member	Sun Nov 08 10:35:43 LH = lil davey
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