Utopia Talk - Politics - "Don't ask don't tell" = costly failure

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Utopia Talk / Politics / "Don't ask don't tell" = costly failure

yankeessuck123
Member Sat Oct 03 20:35:24
Read the piece before yelling.

http://www...failure_of_dont_ask_dont_tell/

SIX WEEKS ago, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs was asked what the latest discussions were between President Obama and Defense Secretary Robert Gates on reexamining the 1993 â??donâ??t ask, donâ??t tellâ??â?? law that bans openly gay and lesbian soldiers from military service. Gibbs merely said, â??I can check on that. I donâ??t have anything with me.â??â??

He does now.

In an essay in the current Joint Force Quarterly, and first reported on by the Globeâ??s Bryan Bender, Air Force Colonel Om Prakash called for homosexual soldiers to be allowed to serve in the open. Prakash wrote the research essay as a student at the National Defense University, and it won the secretary of defenseâ??s national security essay competition. Prakash now works for Gates at the Pentagon.

The fact that the Pentagon honored Prakashâ??s essay is a sign that top officers understand that the law, born out of bigotry, is too antiquated for a modern military - especially the most powerful military in the world. Prakash said there is no basis for the central argument for the law, that homosexual soldiers destroy troop morale. â??After a careful examination, there is no scientific evidence to support the claim that unit cohesion will be negatively affected if homosexuals serve openly,â??â?? he wrote.

In looking at the experience of other countries that lifted their bans on gay soldiers, Prakash saw â??no mass exodus of heterosexuals, and there was also no mass â??coming-outâ?? of homosexuals. . . . In a survey of over 100 experts from Australia, Canada, Israel, and the United Kingdom, it was found that all agreed the decision to lift the ban on homosexuals had no impact on military performance, readiness, cohesion, or ability to recruit or retain, nor did it increase the HIV rate among troops.â??â??

To the contrary in the United States, the 12,500 homosexual soldiers discharged since â??donâ??t askâ??â?? was enacted represent a â??costly failure,â??â?? costly â??both in personnel and treasure.â??â?? The costs of discharges and recruiting and training replacements have cost, according to a University of California study, $363 million. â??These figures do not account for the additional opportunity costs of high-profile, prized specialties such as Arabic speakers,â??â?? Prakash wrote.

Americans clearly support openly gay and lesbians serving in the armed forces, according to polling by the Washington Post, from 44 percent in 1994 to 75 percent in 2008. A USA Today poll this year had support at 69 percent, compared with 26 percent who were opposed to openly homosexual soldiers. Americans have grown to understand, as Prakash wrote, that the law â??forces unusual personal compromises wholly inconsistent with a core military value - integrity . . . these compromises undermined the very cohesion DADT sought to protect.â??â??

Prakash concluded that â??based on this research, it is not time for the administration to reexamine the issue; rather, it is time for the administration to examine how to implement the repeal of the ban.â??â?? It does indeed appear that the White House and military officials are slowly working their way to this conclusion. Obama has long supported lifting the ban and in July, Gates said if the law is changed, â??we will do what the law says and what the president tells us to do.â??â?? Michael Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, similarly said he has had discussions with his service chiefs, including combatant commanders.

â??Certainly, when the law changes - weâ??ll carry out the law,â??â?? Mullen said.

Until now, Congress and Obama were reticent to repeal this maddening law, fearing it would explode politically, similar to what happened to President Clinton in 1993 when he tried to lift the ban. If Prakashâ??s essay can win top prize within the military, then it ought to be that much easier for Congress and Obama to end the costly failure. It is time for them to end this betrayal of our core values.

Hot Rod
Member Sat Oct 03 21:26:38

Good article.

MrPresident07
Member Sat Oct 03 22:21:30
If anybody gets kicked out of the military for admitting they're gay, that's a shame and something needs to be done.

Formerly Fred
Member Sat Oct 03 22:43:26
Kinda hits home, huh.

MrPresident07
Member Sat Oct 03 22:58:31
Yeah it does, because 2 close people in my life have been gay. It's not a choice, therefore people shouldn't be discriminated against for it.

Formerly Fred
Member Sat Oct 03 23:01:10
Sucking dick is not a choice? Funny, I could suck a dick pretty much any time I want, but yet I never have. I simply choose not to.

MrPresident07
Member Sat Oct 03 23:03:29
Not the act, the draw and feeling. There's a difference. I do not support the act, but I cannot deny the feelings as I've seen it manifested in friends.

Formerly Fred
Member Sat Oct 03 23:14:05
"Not the act, the draw and feeling."

Yeah, I'm not buying it. Self control is all it takes. Otherwise I'd be fucking every 14-16 year old girl that walks.

pillz
Member Sat Oct 03 23:40:30
fred pretty much raped you there, faggot07

Eikeys Ghost
Sports Mod Sat Oct 03 23:41:38
"Otherwise I'd be fucking every 14-16 year old girl that walks. "

Even the skanky ones?

mexicantornado
Member Sun Oct 04 00:05:45
" I do not support the act, but I cannot deny the feelings"

heh.

Sorry but the average man serving in the military doesn't want to deal with an openly gay man in his platoon. If a homosexual wants to serve he can however he needs to keep his abnormal sexuality a secret. If he cannot do that then he doesn't need to serve.

MrPresident07
Member Sun Oct 04 00:16:04
Dude, Fred, you know exactly what I'm saying. You don't have to have gay sex ever in your life to be a homosexual. It's not that act that defines you, it's the drive/draw. Geeze.

Nice play on words there MT. lol

roland
Member Sun Oct 04 00:24:03
"Sorry but the average man serving in the military doesn't want to deal with an openly gay man in his platoon"

What is there to deal with?

mexicantornado
Member Sun Oct 04 01:21:25
The fact that he sucks the cocks of other men.

roland
Member Sun Oct 04 01:41:36
So?

Gary Cooper
Member Sun Oct 04 02:02:51
"A 50-year-old State College man was arrested Friday afternoon just hours after police say he broke into a Penn State student's apartment and performed oral sex on the man while he was asleep.

The student, 21, awoke this morning to his neighbor Barry G. Homan, of State College, underneath his comforter performing oral sex on him and talking to him about his penis, according to the criminal complaint.
"

Why should we have to deal with people like this in the military?

We have to worry about the enemy which is enough we don't want to have to worry about other soldiers doing stuff like this to us

Sam Adams Cat
Member Sun Oct 04 02:24:54
"Yeah it does, because 2 close people in my life have been gay. It's not a choice, therefore people shouldn't be discriminated against for it. "

Its always the same with the reps. They only get it when it happens to someone they love. Until then, they'll give a fuck about anyone who someone else somewhere loves.

roland
Member Sun Oct 04 02:30:09
"Why should we have to deal with people like this in the military? "

And why should you use a crimal to represent all gays? Why not pick a rapist to represent all soldiers?

Aeros
Member Sun Oct 04 05:52:28
Even so, a Gay guy in an infantry platoon would be like keeping 1 straight dude in a platoon full of lesbian women. It could be very distracting for the gay dude, and the lesbians would always be looking over their shoulder at the dude.

Sorry, its not a healthy environment. Those combat arms units live in very close quarters. Its already a pain in the ass to make sure the Women are kept separate from the men, which is why very few are found at an operational battalion level. Add gay dudes to the mix and you got just one more Command Headache. Not the least the institutionalized machismo inherent with the Army itself.

CrownRoyal
Member Sun Oct 04 06:05:15
I believe IDF, British Army and Canadian Forces are all gay now. Since they allowed fags to serve. Slowly but surely, the gays assfucked their way through the troops and finally, when the British Chief of Staff blew a seargant, the deed was done. They are all gay now, and can't fight the enemy anymore, everybody is so distracted.

MrPresident07
Member Sun Oct 04 09:05:47
"Its always the same with the reps. They only get it when it happens to someone they love."

Well, I can't argue your point, because that's what happened to me.

Clitoral Hood
The Bloody Scourge Sun Oct 04 10:02:02
"It's not a choice, therefore people shouldn't be discriminated against for it."

really? I hope you have proof for that claim. I can assume you believe that gay people are born gay then (since it's the same argument)?

tell me. I have a thing for chicks in running clothes. you know, those ridiculously short mesh shorts and a plain tee. was I born this way? or did it have something to do with the 10 years of XC and track?

PhunkyPhishStyle
Member Sun Oct 04 10:24:18
"Yeah, I'm not buying it. Self control is all it takes. Otherwise I'd be fucking every 14-16 year old girl that walks."

- Epic.

Seb
Member Sun Oct 04 19:30:03
You Americans are such prudes, it's funny.

Yes, in a combat situation, all those gay guys are going to be thinking about cock rather than the bullets shooting at them, while all the straight guys will be watching their backs (literally) for the sudden ass raping that will occur and not see the RPG screaming towards them.

It'll be like gay firemen all over again. God knows how many firemen have died in collapsing buildings while suddenly distracted by seeing a hunky guy spraying water out of a phallic object, sending him off into a blissfully erotic reverie, or those not looking where they were going to check that the guy behind him on the line wasn't undoing his flies for a quick jerk-off.

Nimatzo
Member Sun Oct 04 22:00:39
>>Sorry but the average man serving in the military doesn't want to deal with an openly gay man in his platoon.<<

WTF are you talking about "deal", what is there to deal with? They suck cock so what? How the fuck does that effect your non cock sucking life? Oh dear imagine to have to deal with combat stress, dead comrades, that asshole sergeant and, and THIS GUY THAT IS GHEY!!

MrPresident07
Member Sun Oct 04 22:10:28
"really? I hope you have proof for that claim. I can assume you believe that gay people are born gay then (since it's the same argument)?

tell me. I have a thing for chicks in running clothes. you know, those ridiculously short mesh shorts and a plain tee. was I born this way? or did it have something to do with the 10 years of XC and track?"

I know I have 2 friends that didn't choose. Enough convincing for me.

Clitoral Hood
The Bloody Scourge Sun Oct 04 22:16:21
I never said choice. I said born with. I'm assuming you think gay people are born that way. if that assumption is wrong, fine. I retract my ... argument? yeah.

there's a giant difference between your life affecting you and being born a specific way. like having a genetic disease and catching a cold.

MrPresident07
Member Sun Oct 04 22:22:15
I'm not sure whether born or not, I just simply said that they don't choose. What are you arguing?

Clitoral Hood
The Bloody Scourge Sun Oct 04 22:26:50
my argument is that unless you think they were born gay, it had to be choice.

now whether that choice was conscious or unconscious would be a case to case basis.

MrPresident07
Member Sun Oct 04 23:15:08
Given the arguments about early childhood development and the psychological aspects involved, I'm not ready to say it's strictly being born that way.

saiko
Member Tue Oct 06 02:19:49
I was never asked if I wanted to be straight. Can't really be a choice then.

Sam Adams Cat
Member Tue Oct 06 02:34:23
"now whether that choice was conscious or unconscious would be a case to case basis. "

Ridiculous. noone chooses it apart from a 1 in a million confused teen who briefly experiments for a school semester. A tiny, negligible minority.

Sam Adams Cat
Member Tue Oct 06 02:38:21
And hes probably Bi anyway.

Clitoral Hood
The Bloody Scourge Tue Oct 06 02:43:05
right, so being attracted to someone of your own sex is hard wired in your genes? a trait that can be passed from parents to offspring?

Sam Adams Cat
Member Tue Oct 06 03:04:20
probably hormones in the womb.

Sam Adams Cat
Member Tue Oct 06 03:04:53
Also, its quite possible that humans are wired to have sex for pleasure with either sex.

Clitoral Hood
The Bloody Scourge Tue Oct 06 08:55:51
in which case homosexuality is normal and shouldn't be frowned upon. we're far past the point in our evolution where we need to worry about underpopulation leading to the species dying out.

Cloud Strife
Member Tue Oct 06 11:41:32
It worked for the Greeks.

CrownRoyal
Member Tue Oct 06 13:04:06
Fucking Greeks.

show deleted posts

yankeessuck123 Member	Sat Oct 03 20:35:24 Read the piece before yelling. http://www...failure_of_dont_ask_dont_tell/ SIX WEEKS ago, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs was asked what the latest discussions were between President Obama and Defense Secretary Robert Gates on reexamining the 1993 â??donâ??t ask, donâ??t tellâ??â?? law that bans openly gay and lesbian soldiers from military service. Gibbs merely said, â??I can check on that. I donâ??t have anything with me.â??â?? He does now. In an essay in the current Joint Force Quarterly, and first reported on by the Globeâ??s Bryan Bender, Air Force Colonel Om Prakash called for homosexual soldiers to be allowed to serve in the open. Prakash wrote the research essay as a student at the National Defense University, and it won the secretary of defenseâ??s national security essay competition. Prakash now works for Gates at the Pentagon. The fact that the Pentagon honored Prakashâ??s essay is a sign that top officers understand that the law, born out of bigotry, is too antiquated for a modern military - especially the most powerful military in the world. Prakash said there is no basis for the central argument for the law, that homosexual soldiers destroy troop morale. â??After a careful examination, there is no scientific evidence to support the claim that unit cohesion will be negatively affected if homosexuals serve openly,â??â?? he wrote. In looking at the experience of other countries that lifted their bans on gay soldiers, Prakash saw â??no mass exodus of heterosexuals, and there was also no mass â??coming-outâ?? of homosexuals. . . . In a survey of over 100 experts from Australia, Canada, Israel, and the United Kingdom, it was found that all agreed the decision to lift the ban on homosexuals had no impact on military performance, readiness, cohesion, or ability to recruit or retain, nor did it increase the HIV rate among troops.â??â?? To the contrary in the United States, the 12,500 homosexual soldiers discharged since â??donâ??t askâ??â?? was enacted represent a â??costly failure,â??â?? costly â??both in personnel and treasure.â??â?? The costs of discharges and recruiting and training replacements have cost, according to a University of California study, $363 million. â??These figures do not account for the additional opportunity costs of high-profile, prized specialties such as Arabic speakers,â??â?? Prakash wrote. Americans clearly support openly gay and lesbians serving in the armed forces, according to polling by the Washington Post, from 44 percent in 1994 to 75 percent in 2008. A USA Today poll this year had support at 69 percent, compared with 26 percent who were opposed to openly homosexual soldiers. Americans have grown to understand, as Prakash wrote, that the law â??forces unusual personal compromises wholly inconsistent with a core military value - integrity . . . these compromises undermined the very cohesion DADT sought to protect.â??â?? Prakash concluded that â??based on this research, it is not time for the administration to reexamine the issue; rather, it is time for the administration to examine how to implement the repeal of the ban.â??â?? It does indeed appear that the White House and military officials are slowly working their way to this conclusion. Obama has long supported lifting the ban and in July, Gates said if the law is changed, â??we will do what the law says and what the president tells us to do.â??â?? Michael Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, similarly said he has had discussions with his service chiefs, including combatant commanders. â??Certainly, when the law changes - weâ??ll carry out the law,â??â?? Mullen said. Until now, Congress and Obama were reticent to repeal this maddening law, fearing it would explode politically, similar to what happened to President Clinton in 1993 when he tried to lift the ban. If Prakashâ??s essay can win top prize within the military, then it ought to be that much easier for Congress and Obama to end the costly failure. It is time for them to end this betrayal of our core values.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Oct 03 21:26:38 Good article.
MrPresident07 Member	Sat Oct 03 22:21:30 If anybody gets kicked out of the military for admitting they're gay, that's a shame and something needs to be done.
Formerly Fred Member	Sat Oct 03 22:43:26 Kinda hits home, huh.
MrPresident07 Member	Sat Oct 03 22:58:31 Yeah it does, because 2 close people in my life have been gay. It's not a choice, therefore people shouldn't be discriminated against for it.
Formerly Fred Member	Sat Oct 03 23:01:10 Sucking dick is not a choice? Funny, I could suck a dick pretty much any time I want, but yet I never have. I simply choose not to.
MrPresident07 Member	Sat Oct 03 23:03:29 Not the act, the draw and feeling. There's a difference. I do not support the act, but I cannot deny the feelings as I've seen it manifested in friends.
Formerly Fred Member	Sat Oct 03 23:14:05 "Not the act, the draw and feeling." Yeah, I'm not buying it. Self control is all it takes. Otherwise I'd be fucking every 14-16 year old girl that walks.
pillz Member	Sat Oct 03 23:40:30 fred pretty much raped you there, faggot07
Eikeys Ghost Sports Mod	Sat Oct 03 23:41:38 "Otherwise I'd be fucking every 14-16 year old girl that walks. " Even the skanky ones?
mexicantornado Member	Sun Oct 04 00:05:45 " I do not support the act, but I cannot deny the feelings" heh. Sorry but the average man serving in the military doesn't want to deal with an openly gay man in his platoon. If a homosexual wants to serve he can however he needs to keep his abnormal sexuality a secret. If he cannot do that then he doesn't need to serve.
MrPresident07 Member	Sun Oct 04 00:16:04 Dude, Fred, you know exactly what I'm saying. You don't have to have gay sex ever in your life to be a homosexual. It's not that act that defines you, it's the drive/draw. Geeze. Nice play on words there MT. lol
roland Member	Sun Oct 04 00:24:03 "Sorry but the average man serving in the military doesn't want to deal with an openly gay man in his platoon" What is there to deal with?
mexicantornado Member	Sun Oct 04 01:21:25 The fact that he sucks the cocks of other men.
roland Member	Sun Oct 04 01:41:36 So?
Gary Cooper Member	Sun Oct 04 02:02:51 "A 50-year-old State College man was arrested Friday afternoon just hours after police say he broke into a Penn State student's apartment and performed oral sex on the man while he was asleep. The student, 21, awoke this morning to his neighbor Barry G. Homan, of State College, underneath his comforter performing oral sex on him and talking to him about his penis, according to the criminal complaint. " Why should we have to deal with people like this in the military? We have to worry about the enemy which is enough we don't want to have to worry about other soldiers doing stuff like this to us
Sam Adams Cat Member	Sun Oct 04 02:24:54 "Yeah it does, because 2 close people in my life have been gay. It's not a choice, therefore people shouldn't be discriminated against for it. " Its always the same with the reps. They only get it when it happens to someone they love. Until then, they'll give a fuck about anyone who someone else somewhere loves.
roland Member	Sun Oct 04 02:30:09 "Why should we have to deal with people like this in the military? " And why should you use a crimal to represent all gays? Why not pick a rapist to represent all soldiers?
Aeros Member	Sun Oct 04 05:52:28 Even so, a Gay guy in an infantry platoon would be like keeping 1 straight dude in a platoon full of lesbian women. It could be very distracting for the gay dude, and the lesbians would always be looking over their shoulder at the dude. Sorry, its not a healthy environment. Those combat arms units live in very close quarters. Its already a pain in the ass to make sure the Women are kept separate from the men, which is why very few are found at an operational battalion level. Add gay dudes to the mix and you got just one more Command Headache. Not the least the institutionalized machismo inherent with the Army itself.
CrownRoyal Member	Sun Oct 04 06:05:15 I believe IDF, British Army and Canadian Forces are all gay now. Since they allowed fags to serve. Slowly but surely, the gays assfucked their way through the troops and finally, when the British Chief of Staff blew a seargant, the deed was done. They are all gay now, and can't fight the enemy anymore, everybody is so distracted.
MrPresident07 Member	Sun Oct 04 09:05:47 "Its always the same with the reps. They only get it when it happens to someone they love." Well, I can't argue your point, because that's what happened to me.
Clitoral Hood The Bloody Scourge	Sun Oct 04 10:02:02 "It's not a choice, therefore people shouldn't be discriminated against for it." really? I hope you have proof for that claim. I can assume you believe that gay people are born gay then (since it's the same argument)? tell me. I have a thing for chicks in running clothes. you know, those ridiculously short mesh shorts and a plain tee. was I born this way? or did it have something to do with the 10 years of XC and track?
PhunkyPhishStyle Member	Sun Oct 04 10:24:18 "Yeah, I'm not buying it. Self control is all it takes. Otherwise I'd be fucking every 14-16 year old girl that walks." - Epic.
Seb Member	Sun Oct 04 19:30:03 You Americans are such prudes, it's funny. Yes, in a combat situation, all those gay guys are going to be thinking about cock rather than the bullets shooting at them, while all the straight guys will be watching their backs (literally) for the sudden ass raping that will occur and not see the RPG screaming towards them. It'll be like gay firemen all over again. God knows how many firemen have died in collapsing buildings while suddenly distracted by seeing a hunky guy spraying water out of a phallic object, sending him off into a blissfully erotic reverie, or those not looking where they were going to check that the guy behind him on the line wasn't undoing his flies for a quick jerk-off.
Nimatzo Member	Sun Oct 04 22:00:39 >>Sorry but the average man serving in the military doesn't want to deal with an openly gay man in his platoon.<< WTF are you talking about "deal", what is there to deal with? They suck cock so what? How the fuck does that effect your non cock sucking life? Oh dear imagine to have to deal with combat stress, dead comrades, that asshole sergeant and, and THIS GUY THAT IS GHEY!!
MrPresident07 Member	Sun Oct 04 22:10:28 "really? I hope you have proof for that claim. I can assume you believe that gay people are born gay then (since it's the same argument)? tell me. I have a thing for chicks in running clothes. you know, those ridiculously short mesh shorts and a plain tee. was I born this way? or did it have something to do with the 10 years of XC and track?" I know I have 2 friends that didn't choose. Enough convincing for me.
Clitoral Hood The Bloody Scourge	Sun Oct 04 22:16:21 I never said choice. I said born with. I'm assuming you think gay people are born that way. if that assumption is wrong, fine. I retract my ... argument? yeah. there's a giant difference between your life affecting you and being born a specific way. like having a genetic disease and catching a cold.
MrPresident07 Member	Sun Oct 04 22:22:15 I'm not sure whether born or not, I just simply said that they don't choose. What are you arguing?
Clitoral Hood The Bloody Scourge	Sun Oct 04 22:26:50 my argument is that unless you think they were born gay, it had to be choice. now whether that choice was conscious or unconscious would be a case to case basis.
MrPresident07 Member	Sun Oct 04 23:15:08 Given the arguments about early childhood development and the psychological aspects involved, I'm not ready to say it's strictly being born that way.
saiko Member	Tue Oct 06 02:19:49 I was never asked if I wanted to be straight. Can't really be a choice then.
Sam Adams Cat Member	Tue Oct 06 02:34:23 "now whether that choice was conscious or unconscious would be a case to case basis. " Ridiculous. noone chooses it apart from a 1 in a million confused teen who briefly experiments for a school semester. A tiny, negligible minority.
Sam Adams Cat Member	Tue Oct 06 02:38:21 And hes probably Bi anyway.
Clitoral Hood The Bloody Scourge	Tue Oct 06 02:43:05 right, so being attracted to someone of your own sex is hard wired in your genes? a trait that can be passed from parents to offspring?
Sam Adams Cat Member	Tue Oct 06 03:04:20 probably hormones in the womb.
Sam Adams Cat Member	Tue Oct 06 03:04:53 Also, its quite possible that humans are wired to have sex for pleasure with either sex.
Clitoral Hood The Bloody Scourge	Tue Oct 06 08:55:51 in which case homosexuality is normal and shouldn't be frowned upon. we're far past the point in our evolution where we need to worry about underpopulation leading to the species dying out.
Cloud Strife Member	Tue Oct 06 11:41:32 It worked for the Greeks.
CrownRoyal Member	Tue Oct 06 13:04:06 Fucking Greeks.
	show deleted posts

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