Utopia Talk - Politics - Rising Above I.Q.

Welcome to the Utopia Forums! Register a new account
The current time is Mon Jul 14 23:49:16 UTC 2025

Utopia Talk / Politics / Rising Above I.Q.

CrownRoyal
rank Tue Jun 09 11:20:09 2009
Rising Above I.Q.

By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
Published: June 6, 2009

In the mosaic of America, three groups that have been unusually successful are Asian-Americans, Jews and West Indian blacks and in that there may be some lessons for the rest of us.

Asian-Americans are renowned or notorious for ruining grade curves in schools across the land, and as a result they constitute about 20 percent of students at Harvard College.

As for Jews, they have received about one-third of all Nobel Prizes in science received by Americans. One survey found that a quarter of Jewish adults in the United States have earned a graduate degree, compared with 6 percent of the population as a whole.

West Indian blacks, those like Colin Powell whose roots are in the Caribbean, are one-third more likely to graduate from college than African-Americans as a whole, and their median household income is almost one-third higher.

These three groups may help debunk the myth of success as a simple product of intrinsic intellect, for they represent three different races and histories. In the debate over nature and nurture, they suggest the importance of improved nurture which, from a public policy perspective, means a focus on education. Their success may also offer some lessons for you, me, our children and for the broader effort to chip away at poverty in this country.

Richard Nisbett cites each of these groups in his superb recent book, Intelligence and How to Get It. Dr. Nisbett, a professor of psychology at the University of Michigan, argues that what we think of as intelligence is quite malleable and owes little or nothing to genetics.

I think the evidence is very good that there is no genetic contribution to the black-white difference on I.Q., he said, adding that there also seems to be no genetic difference in intelligence between whites and Asians. As for Jews, some not-very-rigorous studies have found modestly above-average I.Q. for Ashkenazi Jews, though not for Sephardic Jews. Dr. Nisbett is somewhat skeptical, noting that these results emerge from samples that may not be representative.

In any case, he says, the evidence is overwhelming that what is distinctive about these three groups is not innate advantage but rather a tendency to get the most out of the firepower they have.

One large study followed a group of Chinese-Americans who initially did slightly worse on the verbal portion of I.Q. tests than other Americans and the same on math portions. But beginning in grade school, the Chinese outperformed their peers, apparently because they worked harder.

The Chinese-Americans were only half as likely as other children to repeat a grade in school, and by high school they were doing much better than European-Americans with the same I.Q.

As adults, 55 percent of the Chinese-American sample entered high-status occupations, compared with one-third of whites. To succeed in a profession or as managers, whites needed an average I.Q. of about 100, while Chinese-Americans needed an I.Q. of just 93. In short, Chinese-Americans managed to achieve more than whites who on paper had the same intellect.

A common thread among these three groups may be an emphasis on diligence or education, perhaps linked in part to an immigrant drive. Jews and Chinese have a particularly strong tradition of respect for scholarship, with Jews said to have achieved complete adult male literacy the better to read the Talmud some 1,700 years before any other group.

The parallel force in China was Confucianism and its reverence for education. You can still sometimes see in rural China the remains of a monument to a villager who triumphed in the imperial exams. In contrast, if an American town has someone who earns a Ph.D., the impulse is not to build a monument but to pass a hat.

Among West Indians, the crucial factors for success seem twofold: the classic diligence and hard work associated with immigrants, and intact families. The upshot is higher family incomes and fathers more involved in child-rearing.

Whats the policy lesson from these three success stories?

Its that the most decisive weapons in the war on poverty arent transfer payments but education, education, education. For at-risk households, that starts with social workers making visits to encourage such basic practices as talking to children. One study found that a child of professionals (disproportionately white) has heard about 30 million words spoken by age 3; a black child raised on welfare has heard only 10 million words, leaving that child at a disadvantage in school.

The next step is intensive early childhood programs, followed by improved elementary and high schools, and programs to defray college costs.

Perhaps the larger lesson is a very empowering one: success depends less on intellectual endowment than on perseverance and drive. As Professor Nisbett puts it, Intelligence and academic achievement are very much under peoples control.

http://www...07/opinion/07kristof.html?_r=1

nhill
rank Tue Jun 09 11:25:42 2009
I'm guessing this guy is against IQ tests from the title. (not gonna read the article at work)

From that assumption, I agree. IQ tests are not very indicative of overall intelligence, they are indicative of anaylytical intelligence and completely neglect the 40+ (and counting) other types of intelligence a human being possesses.

Nekran
rank Tue Jun 09 11:57:47 2009
His point is more that there's no difference between races for IQ, as get s claimed regularly and that the real difference lies in education.

nhill
rank Tue Jun 09 11:59:15 2009
Ah, a point that has to be made time and time again I see. I would have thought everyone knew that by now, but I imagine the racist fucks like to hold on to that falsity.

Camaban
rank Tue Jun 09 12:19:19 2009
>>His point is more that there's no difference between races for IQ, as get s claimed regularly and that the real difference lies in education. <<

Not even then, but cultural attitude to education.

As RoB so kindly helped us discover, if you ignore the hispanic and blacks (who are apparently less likely to value education) but instead focus on the attainment levels of whites and asians, America has one of the world's best education systems when looking at results.

river of blood
rank Tue Jun 09 13:12:25 2009
"For at-risk households, that starts with social workers making visits to encourage such basic practices as talking to children. One study found that a child of professionals"

LOL. I didn't even see that one coming. I love how government finds a way to turn everything into an excuse for expanding and getting in between parents and kids even when, ironically, they recognize that lack of engagement between parents and children is part of the problem.

"The next step is intensive early childhood programs"

Right...... i.e. take the kids away from their parents earlier and longer.

Why don't we just cut to the chase? Here's what they should go ahead and recommend: We're raising a nation of retards therefor we should remove children from their homes and make them wards of the state which has a remarkable reputation for raising wave after wave of geniuses. /sarcasm

habebe
rank Tue Jun 09 17:30:03 2009
" West Indian blacks, those like Colin Powell whose roots are in the Caribbean, are one-third more likely to graduate from college than African-Americans as a whole, and their median household income is almost one-third higher. "

Uh, that still isn't really saying much, how do they stack up compared to the US on the whole?

" Not even then, but cultural attitude to education. "

I knew several koreans/Vietmanese, there families pushed college and higher education as if it was part of their religion.

licker
rank Tue Jun 09 17:42:02 2009
"His point is more that there's no difference between races for IQ, as get s claimed regularly and that the real difference lies in education. "

This is incorrect.

His point is that there is no GENETIC difference.

I think that is incorrect as well, but I don't think IQ matters nearly as much as many people make it out to and that the difference is minute anyway.

Clearly there is a difference in the way men and womens brains process certain types of information, and apparently there is also a slight difference between different racial groups. How or if that relates to IQ is often misused by various idiots, but it doesn't change the fact that there are differences.

Madc0w
rank Tue Jun 09 17:42:26 2009
"We're raising a nation of retards therefor we should remove children from their homes and make them wards of the state which has a remarkable reputation for raising wave after wave of geniuses.
"

I highly doubt you understood the main point of the article.

habebe
rank Tue Jun 09 17:43:30 2009
Licker, Many other skills not tested in IQ tests play major factors in success. People skills comes to mind.

licker
rank Tue Jun 09 17:47:42 2009
I don't know why you directed that to me habebe, as I said, I don't put much value in IQ tests, nor did I comment on what it takes to be successful.

My only point is that there are genetic differences between races, some of them involving the brain. It's not a stretch to say that there could be some genetic difference which manifests itself in IQ measurements, but again, I don't think it really matters.

Nekran
rank Tue Jun 09 17:48:16 2009
"His point is that there is no GENETIC difference."

Is what I meant... but point well taken.

"I think that is incorrect as well, but I don't think IQ matters nearly as much as many people make it out to and that the difference is minute anyway."

I agree with you on IQ not really mattering... don't know about the genetic thing when it comes to race. I hate that so many people are so allergic to the idea of there being differences between races while this is so obviously undeniable though.

habebe
rank Tue Jun 09 17:49:24 2009
licker, I directed to you as it seemed to go with the theme of your post, I'm agreeing w/ you.

river of blood
rank Tue Jun 09 17:50:11 2009
"I highly doubt you understood the main point of the article."

I guess you missed the part about "policy lessons" to be learned from this. Try reading it again over and over real slow.

talon121
rank Wed Jun 10 02:33:46 2009
No one thinks genetics can push people towards their culture or have a great effect on it?

I think that different races would have a different average IQ but the difference would be minimal. Maybe a few points at most.

talon121
rank Wed Jun 10 02:37:53 2009
But even if there was a 10 point difference between races, people need to understand that humans still don't have a perfect system for measuring intelligence.

But to say that every race is the same is silly. Every race is different in many ways so why wouldn't intelligence be different. But it would be even more silly to use it in an argument since it's a mute point.

habebe
rank Wed Jun 10 05:12:49 2009
Also, avg. IQ and max IQ effect societies differently.

High avg. IQ's help a society to better run day to day things.

But high max IQ's result i your Einstiens, Tesla, Galileo, Newton etc. just look at all of the great things that have been accomplished merley because of those 4 men.

Sam Adams
rank Wed Jun 10 06:53:32 2009
while IQ obviously cannot be ignored, one must remember that some asian kid who studies his ass off is going to 1) have no life and no experience making real decisions and 2) follow the book more closely with less creativity.

This is why the japanese navy on paper matched the US and then lost every battle.

Spiridonovich Putin
rank Wed Jun 10 10:09:25 2009
pearl harbor

Bushwasdabespresid
rank Wed Jun 10 10:18:24 2009
herosheema

river of blood
rank Wed Jun 10 10:34:44 2009
Obviosly we need to have someone from the government living with each family in america to make sure they are doing everything right. Thank god for these invaluable policy lessons.

Truther
rank Wed Jun 10 10:46:03 2009
"Obviosly we need to have someone from the government living with each family in america to make sure they are doing everything right"

Isn't there a program teaching children to report other children for being terrorists?

All they have to do is expand it to report parents too and thats over with.

MrPresident07
rank Wed Jun 10 22:16:28 2009
RoB is absolutely right.

crown royal31282
rank Sun Feb 05 09:20:47 2012
family develop young keep grow do grow !

show deleted posts

CrownRoyal rank	Tue Jun 09 11:20:09 2009 Rising Above I.Q. By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF Published: June 6, 2009 In the mosaic of America, three groups that have been unusually successful are Asian-Americans, Jews and West Indian blacks and in that there may be some lessons for the rest of us. Asian-Americans are renowned or notorious for ruining grade curves in schools across the land, and as a result they constitute about 20 percent of students at Harvard College. As for Jews, they have received about one-third of all Nobel Prizes in science received by Americans. One survey found that a quarter of Jewish adults in the United States have earned a graduate degree, compared with 6 percent of the population as a whole. West Indian blacks, those like Colin Powell whose roots are in the Caribbean, are one-third more likely to graduate from college than African-Americans as a whole, and their median household income is almost one-third higher. These three groups may help debunk the myth of success as a simple product of intrinsic intellect, for they represent three different races and histories. In the debate over nature and nurture, they suggest the importance of improved nurture which, from a public policy perspective, means a focus on education. Their success may also offer some lessons for you, me, our children and for the broader effort to chip away at poverty in this country. Richard Nisbett cites each of these groups in his superb recent book, Intelligence and How to Get It. Dr. Nisbett, a professor of psychology at the University of Michigan, argues that what we think of as intelligence is quite malleable and owes little or nothing to genetics. I think the evidence is very good that there is no genetic contribution to the black-white difference on I.Q., he said, adding that there also seems to be no genetic difference in intelligence between whites and Asians. As for Jews, some not-very-rigorous studies have found modestly above-average I.Q. for Ashkenazi Jews, though not for Sephardic Jews. Dr. Nisbett is somewhat skeptical, noting that these results emerge from samples that may not be representative. In any case, he says, the evidence is overwhelming that what is distinctive about these three groups is not innate advantage but rather a tendency to get the most out of the firepower they have. One large study followed a group of Chinese-Americans who initially did slightly worse on the verbal portion of I.Q. tests than other Americans and the same on math portions. But beginning in grade school, the Chinese outperformed their peers, apparently because they worked harder. The Chinese-Americans were only half as likely as other children to repeat a grade in school, and by high school they were doing much better than European-Americans with the same I.Q. As adults, 55 percent of the Chinese-American sample entered high-status occupations, compared with one-third of whites. To succeed in a profession or as managers, whites needed an average I.Q. of about 100, while Chinese-Americans needed an I.Q. of just 93. In short, Chinese-Americans managed to achieve more than whites who on paper had the same intellect. A common thread among these three groups may be an emphasis on diligence or education, perhaps linked in part to an immigrant drive. Jews and Chinese have a particularly strong tradition of respect for scholarship, with Jews said to have achieved complete adult male literacy the better to read the Talmud some 1,700 years before any other group. The parallel force in China was Confucianism and its reverence for education. You can still sometimes see in rural China the remains of a monument to a villager who triumphed in the imperial exams. In contrast, if an American town has someone who earns a Ph.D., the impulse is not to build a monument but to pass a hat. Among West Indians, the crucial factors for success seem twofold: the classic diligence and hard work associated with immigrants, and intact families. The upshot is higher family incomes and fathers more involved in child-rearing. Whats the policy lesson from these three success stories? Its that the most decisive weapons in the war on poverty arent transfer payments but education, education, education. For at-risk households, that starts with social workers making visits to encourage such basic practices as talking to children. One study found that a child of professionals (disproportionately white) has heard about 30 million words spoken by age 3; a black child raised on welfare has heard only 10 million words, leaving that child at a disadvantage in school. The next step is intensive early childhood programs, followed by improved elementary and high schools, and programs to defray college costs. Perhaps the larger lesson is a very empowering one: success depends less on intellectual endowment than on perseverance and drive. As Professor Nisbett puts it, Intelligence and academic achievement are very much under peoples control. http://www...07/opinion/07kristof.html?_r=1
nhill rank	Tue Jun 09 11:25:42 2009 I'm guessing this guy is against IQ tests from the title. (not gonna read the article at work) From that assumption, I agree. IQ tests are not very indicative of overall intelligence, they are indicative of anaylytical intelligence and completely neglect the 40+ (and counting) other types of intelligence a human being possesses.
Nekran rank	Tue Jun 09 11:57:47 2009 His point is more that there's no difference between races for IQ, as get s claimed regularly and that the real difference lies in education.
nhill rank	Tue Jun 09 11:59:15 2009 Ah, a point that has to be made time and time again I see. I would have thought everyone knew that by now, but I imagine the racist fucks like to hold on to that falsity.
Camaban rank	Tue Jun 09 12:19:19 2009 >>His point is more that there's no difference between races for IQ, as get s claimed regularly and that the real difference lies in education. << Not even then, but cultural attitude to education. As RoB so kindly helped us discover, if you ignore the hispanic and blacks (who are apparently less likely to value education) but instead focus on the attainment levels of whites and asians, America has one of the world's best education systems when looking at results.
river of blood rank	Tue Jun 09 13:12:25 2009 "For at-risk households, that starts with social workers making visits to encourage such basic practices as talking to children. One study found that a child of professionals" LOL. I didn't even see that one coming. I love how government finds a way to turn everything into an excuse for expanding and getting in between parents and kids even when, ironically, they recognize that lack of engagement between parents and children is part of the problem. "The next step is intensive early childhood programs" Right...... i.e. take the kids away from their parents earlier and longer. Why don't we just cut to the chase? Here's what they should go ahead and recommend: We're raising a nation of retards therefor we should remove children from their homes and make them wards of the state which has a remarkable reputation for raising wave after wave of geniuses. /sarcasm
habebe rank	Tue Jun 09 17:30:03 2009 " West Indian blacks, those like Colin Powell whose roots are in the Caribbean, are one-third more likely to graduate from college than African-Americans as a whole, and their median household income is almost one-third higher. " Uh, that still isn't really saying much, how do they stack up compared to the US on the whole? " Not even then, but cultural attitude to education. " I knew several koreans/Vietmanese, there families pushed college and higher education as if it was part of their religion.
licker rank	Tue Jun 09 17:42:02 2009 "His point is more that there's no difference between races for IQ, as get s claimed regularly and that the real difference lies in education. " This is incorrect. His point is that there is no GENETIC difference. I think that is incorrect as well, but I don't think IQ matters nearly as much as many people make it out to and that the difference is minute anyway. Clearly there is a difference in the way men and womens brains process certain types of information, and apparently there is also a slight difference between different racial groups. How or if that relates to IQ is often misused by various idiots, but it doesn't change the fact that there are differences.
Madc0w rank	Tue Jun 09 17:42:26 2009 "We're raising a nation of retards therefor we should remove children from their homes and make them wards of the state which has a remarkable reputation for raising wave after wave of geniuses. " I highly doubt you understood the main point of the article.
habebe rank	Tue Jun 09 17:43:30 2009 Licker, Many other skills not tested in IQ tests play major factors in success. People skills comes to mind.
licker rank	Tue Jun 09 17:47:42 2009 I don't know why you directed that to me habebe, as I said, I don't put much value in IQ tests, nor did I comment on what it takes to be successful. My only point is that there are genetic differences between races, some of them involving the brain. It's not a stretch to say that there could be some genetic difference which manifests itself in IQ measurements, but again, I don't think it really matters.
Nekran rank	Tue Jun 09 17:48:16 2009 "His point is that there is no GENETIC difference." Is what I meant... but point well taken. "I think that is incorrect as well, but I don't think IQ matters nearly as much as many people make it out to and that the difference is minute anyway." I agree with you on IQ not really mattering... don't know about the genetic thing when it comes to race. I hate that so many people are so allergic to the idea of there being differences between races while this is so obviously undeniable though.
habebe rank	Tue Jun 09 17:49:24 2009 licker, I directed to you as it seemed to go with the theme of your post, I'm agreeing w/ you.
river of blood rank	Tue Jun 09 17:50:11 2009 "I highly doubt you understood the main point of the article." I guess you missed the part about "policy lessons" to be learned from this. Try reading it again over and over real slow.
talon121 rank	Wed Jun 10 02:33:46 2009 No one thinks genetics can push people towards their culture or have a great effect on it? I think that different races would have a different average IQ but the difference would be minimal. Maybe a few points at most.
talon121 rank	Wed Jun 10 02:37:53 2009 But even if there was a 10 point difference between races, people need to understand that humans still don't have a perfect system for measuring intelligence. But to say that every race is the same is silly. Every race is different in many ways so why wouldn't intelligence be different. But it would be even more silly to use it in an argument since it's a mute point.
habebe rank	Wed Jun 10 05:12:49 2009 Also, avg. IQ and max IQ effect societies differently. High avg. IQ's help a society to better run day to day things. But high max IQ's result i your Einstiens, Tesla, Galileo, Newton etc. just look at all of the great things that have been accomplished merley because of those 4 men.
Sam Adams rank	Wed Jun 10 06:53:32 2009 while IQ obviously cannot be ignored, one must remember that some asian kid who studies his ass off is going to 1) have no life and no experience making real decisions and 2) follow the book more closely with less creativity. This is why the japanese navy on paper matched the US and then lost every battle.
Spiridonovich Putin rank	Wed Jun 10 10:09:25 2009 pearl harbor
Bushwasdabespresid rank	Wed Jun 10 10:18:24 2009 herosheema
river of blood rank	Wed Jun 10 10:34:44 2009 Obviosly we need to have someone from the government living with each family in america to make sure they are doing everything right. Thank god for these invaluable policy lessons.
Truther rank	Wed Jun 10 10:46:03 2009 "Obviosly we need to have someone from the government living with each family in america to make sure they are doing everything right" Isn't there a program teaching children to report other children for being terrorists? All they have to do is expand it to report parents too and thats over with.
MrPresident07 rank	Wed Jun 10 22:16:28 2009 RoB is absolutely right.
crown royal31282 rank	Sun Feb 05 09:20:47 2012 family develop young keep grow do grow !
	show deleted posts

Your Name:
Your Password:
Your Message: