Utopia Talk - Politics - US again threatens allies

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Utopia Talk / Politics / US again threatens allies

Seb
rank Fri Apr 24 10:58:07
Apparently the US is threatening to reverse its position on the Falklands to support Argentina.

That doesn't really matter, I think. But it just shows how the US can't be trusted or relied on and why Europe needs to be further cutting ties with the US.

williamthebastard
rank Fri Apr 24 11:12:16
I wish Trump would have a couple more apoplexy fits over invading greenland or something, just to silence the last remaining rightwingers in Europe who are stopping us from finally cutting all ties with the US

williamthebastard
rank Fri Apr 24 11:24:31
Greenland would be a perfect battleground for us. Every inch booby-trapped by now, too very awkward area to land larger forces, no civilian casualties, smash their glass jaw, send them home in shock and dismay cut off from everyone to ruminate on their errors

Sam Adams
rank Fri Apr 24 12:08:30
"Europe needs to be further cutting ties with the US."

We've been over this seb. You are cowards. You are going to keep outsourcing your defense to the US for as long as you can.

jergul
rank Fri Apr 24 12:25:06
Sammy, your military is built on the concepts of cowardice and casualty aversion.

I admit that we need to come to grips with casualties in the range of 1k a day against any near peer adversary, so we have to focus both on lethality so we can inflict the same level and robustness so we can sustain such losses indefinitely.

You? You run out of options the moment you run out of long range smart weapons. Cowards.

jergul
rank Fri Apr 24 12:26:04
Could you even imagine accepting 1k casualties a day for months or years? You see? Coward.

Seb
rank Fri Apr 24 12:44:25
NaMBLA:

From the same school of thought that brought you "Japanese will never be able to fly planes because of their slitty eyes".

williamthebastard
rank Fri Apr 24 13:02:42
Tne US is suffering greatly from ivory tower syndrome and probably can only be brought back to reality again by getting their nose bloodied. Theyre like a pop star who couldnt handle fame and now demands to be allowed to push and shove their way through any crowd and get extraordinary treatment, while the crowd is increasingly going "who the fuck does she think she is?"

Getting smacked around in Greenland, leading them to isolation and to get on with setting their own country back 40 years in their own civil war would do them a lot of good.

murder
rank Fri Apr 24 13:42:01

"Apparently the US is threatening to reverse its position on the Falklands to support Argentina."

Just remind Argentina that you have nukes and are overdue for a test.

-

Habebe
rank Fri Apr 24 15:02:11
So, it's a threat to say we MAY no longer support colonial claims to territory of allies?

Rugian
rank Fri Apr 24 15:19:52
Yeah this is a stupid thread title.

"Oh no, the US is THREATENING to not give you free security guarantees for your imperial overseas possessions!"

Wow, the country that has held a policy of global decolonization since WWII isn't going to help you over the Falklands. The horror.

Fun fact: statistically, there are more Falklands citizens who support reunion with Argentina than there are Chagos inhabitants who support annexation to Mauritius.

But don't expect any consistency from Seb on this topic.

Seb
rank Fri Apr 24 15:32:16
Rugian:

Falklands isn't covered by any security guarantee. It wasn't in 1982 when you tried to force us to negotiate with the invader, and it isn't now; and we really don't need any "guarantee".

And that isn't what the US is doing, it's threatening to take the view that the territory and the people living there are subject to Argentinian sovereignty.

This is like the UK supporting the increasing view among Russian nationalists that Alaska wasn't really sold to the US and it's actually occupied.

Seb
rank Fri Apr 24 15:40:06
"Fun fact: statistically, there are more Falklands citizens who support reunion with Argentina than there are Chagos inhabitants who support annexation to Mauritius."

Which is irrelevant.

The Falklands was not artificially cut out of a British colony to retain independence. It was separate from Argentina since before Argentinian independence from Spain.

The Chagos islands were part of the colony of Mauritius (the two having been annexed together by the French) and the issue is the UK artificially separated them for the specific purposes of retaining control over the Chagos Islands.

We would be on more solid ground if we had established the split on the basis Chagosans did not want to be part of Mauritius; but the deal we struck with the US required us to depot all the Chagosans, many *to* Mauritius which creates a bit of a problem as it both establishes that at the time we did consider it part of Mauritius (why relocate the population there otherwise) and also establishes the separation wasn't based on self determination. It's now pretty hard to base a separation on principles self-determination having removed any resident population that you'd base that on.

By creating the "perfect" base by creating a territory with no population, its pretty hard to establish anything other than "you are occupying a bunch of natural resources that rightfully belong to an existing state".

Hrothgar
rank Fri Apr 24 15:51:31
This entire thread has Putin laughing. Trump has (probably) obliviously achieved his Russian objectives so perfectly.

Hrothgar
rank Fri Apr 24 15:56:10
Also, I'm almost certain any war for Greenland would have half the American population wanting to fight for Europe, including most of largest, most populous states. It would be hugely destabilizing beyond even the current flailing US nation state, and with the right spark states would ally with Europe.

Seb
rank Fri Apr 24 16:02:47
Hrothgar:

It does, and while Putin certainly ruthlessly exploited the cracks and flaws in US society, the problem is that a significant chunk of the US is fine with that because they see their interests as more closely aligned with Putin and Russia than their domestic political opponents.

I would rather remain an Atlantacist as I had been all my life but honestly that's just not possible until the US sorts itself out - and by that I explicitly do not mean "elects a party I'm more ideologically in tune with"; I mean something more akin to "reconstitutes itself into such a way it is a polity capable of pursuing a sufficiently predictable and sustained foreign policy that it makes sense to engage with".

Seb
rank Fri Apr 24 16:06:45
Any genuinely serious country would have ejected the trump admin one way or another - until the US stays taking itself seriously it's difficult to imagine other countries taking it seriously as a partner to engage with rather than a random event generator to be managed.

show deleted posts

Seb rank	Fri Apr 24 10:58:07 Apparently the US is threatening to reverse its position on the Falklands to support Argentina. That doesn't really matter, I think. But it just shows how the US can't be trusted or relied on and why Europe needs to be further cutting ties with the US.
williamthebastard rank	Fri Apr 24 11:12:16 I wish Trump would have a couple more apoplexy fits over invading greenland or something, just to silence the last remaining rightwingers in Europe who are stopping us from finally cutting all ties with the US
williamthebastard rank	Fri Apr 24 11:24:31 Greenland would be a perfect battleground for us. Every inch booby-trapped by now, too very awkward area to land larger forces, no civilian casualties, smash their glass jaw, send them home in shock and dismay cut off from everyone to ruminate on their errors
Sam Adams rank	Fri Apr 24 12:08:30 "Europe needs to be further cutting ties with the US." We've been over this seb. You are cowards. You are going to keep outsourcing your defense to the US for as long as you can.
jergul rank	Fri Apr 24 12:25:06 Sammy, your military is built on the concepts of cowardice and casualty aversion. I admit that we need to come to grips with casualties in the range of 1k a day against any near peer adversary, so we have to focus both on lethality so we can inflict the same level and robustness so we can sustain such losses indefinitely. You? You run out of options the moment you run out of long range smart weapons. Cowards.
jergul rank	Fri Apr 24 12:26:04 Could you even imagine accepting 1k casualties a day for months or years? You see? Coward.
Seb rank	Fri Apr 24 12:44:25 NaMBLA: From the same school of thought that brought you "Japanese will never be able to fly planes because of their slitty eyes".
williamthebastard rank	Fri Apr 24 13:02:42 Tne US is suffering greatly from ivory tower syndrome and probably can only be brought back to reality again by getting their nose bloodied. Theyre like a pop star who couldnt handle fame and now demands to be allowed to push and shove their way through any crowd and get extraordinary treatment, while the crowd is increasingly going "who the fuck does she think she is?" Getting smacked around in Greenland, leading them to isolation and to get on with setting their own country back 40 years in their own civil war would do them a lot of good.
murder rank	Fri Apr 24 13:42:01 "Apparently the US is threatening to reverse its position on the Falklands to support Argentina." Just remind Argentina that you have nukes and are overdue for a test. -
Habebe rank	Fri Apr 24 15:02:11 So, it's a threat to say we MAY no longer support colonial claims to territory of allies?
Rugian rank	Fri Apr 24 15:19:52 Yeah this is a stupid thread title. "Oh no, the US is THREATENING to not give you free security guarantees for your imperial overseas possessions!" Wow, the country that has held a policy of global decolonization since WWII isn't going to help you over the Falklands. The horror. Fun fact: statistically, there are more Falklands citizens who support reunion with Argentina than there are Chagos inhabitants who support annexation to Mauritius. But don't expect any consistency from Seb on this topic.
Seb rank	Fri Apr 24 15:32:16 Rugian: Falklands isn't covered by any security guarantee. It wasn't in 1982 when you tried to force us to negotiate with the invader, and it isn't now; and we really don't need any "guarantee". And that isn't what the US is doing, it's threatening to take the view that the territory and the people living there are subject to Argentinian sovereignty. This is like the UK supporting the increasing view among Russian nationalists that Alaska wasn't really sold to the US and it's actually occupied.
Seb rank	Fri Apr 24 15:40:06 "Fun fact: statistically, there are more Falklands citizens who support reunion with Argentina than there are Chagos inhabitants who support annexation to Mauritius." Which is irrelevant. The Falklands was not artificially cut out of a British colony to retain independence. It was separate from Argentina since before Argentinian independence from Spain. The Chagos islands were part of the colony of Mauritius (the two having been annexed together by the French) and the issue is the UK artificially separated them for the specific purposes of retaining control over the Chagos Islands. We would be on more solid ground if we had established the split on the basis Chagosans did not want to be part of Mauritius; but the deal we struck with the US required us to depot all the Chagosans, many to Mauritius which creates a bit of a problem as it both establishes that at the time we did consider it part of Mauritius (why relocate the population there otherwise) and also establishes the separation wasn't based on self determination. It's now pretty hard to base a separation on principles self-determination having removed any resident population that you'd base that on. By creating the "perfect" base by creating a territory with no population, its pretty hard to establish anything other than "you are occupying a bunch of natural resources that rightfully belong to an existing state".
Hrothgar rank	Fri Apr 24 15:51:31 This entire thread has Putin laughing. Trump has (probably) obliviously achieved his Russian objectives so perfectly.
Hrothgar rank	Fri Apr 24 15:56:10 Also, I'm almost certain any war for Greenland would have half the American population wanting to fight for Europe, including most of largest, most populous states. It would be hugely destabilizing beyond even the current flailing US nation state, and with the right spark states would ally with Europe.
Seb rank	Fri Apr 24 16:02:47 Hrothgar: It does, and while Putin certainly ruthlessly exploited the cracks and flaws in US society, the problem is that a significant chunk of the US is fine with that because they see their interests as more closely aligned with Putin and Russia than their domestic political opponents. I would rather remain an Atlantacist as I had been all my life but honestly that's just not possible until the US sorts itself out - and by that I explicitly do not mean "elects a party I'm more ideologically in tune with"; I mean something more akin to "reconstitutes itself into such a way it is a polity capable of pursuing a sufficiently predictable and sustained foreign policy that it makes sense to engage with".
Seb rank	Fri Apr 24 16:06:45 Any genuinely serious country would have ejected the trump admin one way or another - until the US stays taking itself seriously it's difficult to imagine other countries taking it seriously as a partner to engage with rather than a random event generator to be managed.
	show deleted posts

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