Utopia Talk / Politics / Civilizational Suicide

Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Jun 11 08:55:38 Claim: Universal suffrage ("one person, one vote") structurally undermines civilization because it grants political power without demanding competence, accountability, or long-term investment. Historically, thriving civilizations required voters to have demonstrable stakes—military service, taxes, property—ensuring responsible, long-term governance and strategic stability. Without such conditions, democracy devolves into short-term populism, emotional decision-making, and dependency, leading inevitably toward civilizational entropy and collapse.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Jun 11 08:55:55 Discuss.
Pillz breaker of wtb	Wed Jun 11 09:02:04 Sam, Rugian, kargan, Obaminated, CC and Asgardand myself agree Jergul doesn't want to agree TW and seb are apalled Cuckhat struggles to understand what you've said
Pillz breaker of wtb	Wed Jun 11 09:03:00 (this is one of the most discussed ideas, and probably the most popular besides 'glass the middle east', in UP history)
jergul large member	Wed Jun 11 09:35:30 Universal suffrage does not grant universal political power. Political power is still held by the relative few. It does provide a codified vector for moblizing political power into the hands of the relative few and is often more egalitarian in sense that there are few barriers to elected public service at local level and beyond. The implicit assumption that all other systems demand competence, accountability and long term investment is counterfactual. The flaw is the same as always. Populist messaging can cause people to vote against their own best interests. Not in essence different than any time populist messaging has enflamed the many to act in self-destructive ways. Pro-tip: The alternative is oligarchy in one of its many incarnations. It is beyond dispute however that providing people with vested interests makes the system work better. So, yah, lets do that.
Forwyn Member	Wed Jun 11 09:43:44 Repeal the 19th is always the safest starting point
Pillz breaker of wtb	Wed Jun 11 10:40:40 Let's play a game. What's the difference in jergul's opening statement about universal suffrage vs his closing statement about alternatives? "Universal suffrage does not grant universal political power. Political power is still held by the relative few." vs "Pro-tip: The alternative is oligarchy in one of its many incarnations." Gotcha. There is none! "The flaw is the same as always. Populist messaging can cause people to vote against their own best interests." That is because people are uneducated, misled, and exposed to propaganda. Because misinformation and ignorance are the combination used to manipulate the masses for all of history. We should have addressed this issue by now. Instead we've willingly made it worse: because the cycle can't be broken - and you're it's favorite sort of victim.
jergul large member	Wed Jun 11 11:13:55 The system is definitely broken, but it mostly has to do with the economic foundation. A single person should be able to work 30 hours a week at Safeway making 30 buck and hour to cover a mortgage on his two room apartment in an urban area (work more hours if you want kids and a bigger home). Why is that so impossble? I dont think I am the victim by any stretch. Too old. I managed to cling to the bottom rung of the ladder as it was pulled up.
Pillz breaker of wtb	Wed Jun 11 11:19:26 Symptom not the cause. Also your last sentence incorrectly reframes my assertion via economics. I said what I said.
Pillz breaker of wtb	Wed Jun 11 11:20:44 Better question for UP is why has nimatzo begun posing his questions via ChatGPT tho
jergul large member	Wed Jun 11 11:36:28 That once is easy. An inferred appeal to authority fallacy. Reserving personhood for actual humans would be a helpful step towards a kinder future. Legal entities following amoral scripts supposedly written by Smith's invisible man is the AI we should worry about. Never mind that the actors enacting the script might perhaps be human still.
jergul large member	Wed Jun 11 11:36:43 invisible hand*
Sam Adams Member	Wed Jun 11 14:50:32 Pillz breaker of wtb Wed Jun 11 09:02:04 Sam, Rugian, kargan, Obaminated, CC and Asgardand myself agree Jergul doesn't want to agree TW and seb are apalled Cuckhat struggles to understand what you've said Lol yep that about sums it up.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 12 02:22:05 Chatgpt is acting like a glorified notepad in these threads, an assistant. It does a good job. If I have a deeper session I ask it to distill it into a claim. And then as the thread progresses I can unpack arguments gpt noted down that I made and post them. If a poster makes a new unaddressed argument I can input that. I will be doing this lot of this going forward. It’s always me, but I do not hesitate to post what I think are interesting or good arguments that gpt made, but then I will be upfront about it. Why? It helps me cut through the noise, of my own brain, the passive aggressive jabs and invectives, not that I care, I am just easily sniped that way into mudd wrestling. TL:DR you guys are more useful interlocutors when ”michael” filters you :-)
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 12 02:28:10 And on that note. You raise several points worth unpacking. I want to clarify that my argument isn’t that universal suffrage gives each voter direct political power like an oligarch, but that the aggregated influence of the mass electorate shapes political outcomes, especially through the incentives it creates for politicians to prioritize popularity over sustainability. In that sense, suffrage operates as a structural driver—not a symbolic one. On populism, I think we’re actually closer than it seems. You identify populist manipulation as the danger, and I agree. But I’d argue this isn’t external to the system—it’s endogenous. Universal suffrage without filters (skin in the game, competence, responsibility) creates the very conditions in which populism flourishes. The crowd becomes the battlefield. You also mention that other systems aren’t paragons of accountability—true. But my point isn’t that alternatives are flawless, just that universal suffrage uniquely removes selection pressure for long-term thinking. Other flawed systems may decay through corruption or stagnation; this one decays by design through voter incentives. Lastly, I noticed you conceded that systems work better when people have vested interests. That’s the heart of the argument: power needs anchoring in responsibility. Whether it’s property, tax contribution, or service, tying vote to stake has historically produced more stable governance. ”The reframing of Jergul’s populism point as “endogenous” to suffrage (turning a seeming disagreement into a deeper agreement).” GPT is the author of this. I very much agree and this idea is compatible with my own focus on human evolution and ecology. It is always a mystery when this happens. Did it do this because it is mirroring my mind (through memory, archived chats and customizations) or did I just ”google” something that resonated with me?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 12 02:28:26 That was to Jergul.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 12 02:32:50 Sorry I missed this: On your economic point—I agree that material decline is real and deeply felt. But I’d argue that economic collapse isn’t isolated—it’s shaped by political incentives. When short-term electoral cycles drive spending, regulation, and redistribution without long-term strategy, economic fragility becomes an output of the system itself.
williamthebastard Member	Thu Jun 12 03:06:28 Without reading the low-information neofascist bigotry that must be going on here judging by a quick scroll of the names posting here and the author, it will always remain a complete mystery how adult males who are fixated on pretending to be big, strong "alpha males" can be so hateful and frightened of our daughters, wives, sisters and mothers. I have to conclude its just really bad people fearing the loss of their unearned privileges over other people
jergul large member	Thu Jun 12 05:13:28 Populism is not caused by universal suffrage. Mob rule, bread riots, insurrections. Mass revolt. All form the backdrop where those with political power formulate populist policies. Facts old when Romans coined the phrase Bread and Circus to keep the population in check. All rolling back universal sufferage would do is cripple the legitimacy of any regime that emerged from such a ruin. Compounding in effect what you seek to resolve. I fear I lack your admiration for the Communist Party of China in other words. Universal sufferage without filters? When has that ever existed? There are astounding numbers of checks and balances in place that stability and incremental development. Strengthen checks and balances? Sure. Start by disenfranchising legal persons to remove one mob that most certainly is perverting the course of human development. Development. Not evolution. Evolution is measured over the spam of 1000nds of generations. We are materially the same people that decided that farming was a novel and interesting idea. Vested interests rests in securing a fair portion of the ever increasing pie productivity grants humanity as a whole. People are vested when they have something to lose. So make sure everyone has something. Any other course is oligarchy in various forms of expression.
jergul large member	Thu Jun 12 05:20:49 I fear I lack Chat GPTs admiration for the Communist Party of China* I may as well blame the correct author.
Forwyn Member	Thu Jun 12 08:35:34 "frightened of our daughters, wives, sisters and mothers." It's not MY daughters, wife, sisters, or mother. It's women without the stabilizing force of family, God, or societal standards, whose stabilizing force is a social media algorithm that weaponizes that empathetic consensus-seeking of the female mind. One only need look at the disparity in voting patterns for single vs. married women.
Pillz breaker of wtb	Thu Jun 12 10:04:48 The more nim & jergul post the worse it gets!
Seb Member	Thu Jun 12 16:07:09 Oh my god are we even having this high school level debate? This has genuinely been done to death hundreds of years ago.
Pillz breaker of wtb	Thu Jun 12 16:17:57 Called it
Sam Adams Member	Thu Jun 12 16:39:42 Lol
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