Utopia Talk / Politics / In Every Single US War

Milton Bradley Member	Thu Sep 23 05:51:18 ...except the war when they killed each other centuries ago, they have been invaders in another peoples country. Discuss.
Nekran Member	Thu Sep 23 06:03:05 Don't think you can call what the US did in the world wars invading... that was actual liberating.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 06:05:16 Actually it was 1.5 centuries ago. And I think you are ignoring the war of 1812 not to mention WWI and WWII, Vietnam, Korea, and GWI to mention a few off the top of my head.
Milton Bradley Member	Thu Sep 23 06:10:41 Hmmm, I see, vietnam was fought on american soil. Good point. Since the excuses are going to be semantic, lets add this qualifier: In Every Single US War except the war when they killed each other centuries ago, they have waged every war within another countrys sovereign borders.
Milton Bradley Member	Thu Sep 23 06:13:54 * with the semi-exception of 1812, 2 centuries ago
roland Member	Thu Sep 23 06:17:54 pretty sure we started as the defender at the start of the Pacific war.
Milton Bradley Member	Thu Sep 23 06:24:08 well thats a whole lot better example than vietnam, I'll give you that. At least one attack was on US soil that time.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 06:42:21 mb - In Every Single US War except the war when they killed each other centuries ago, they have waged every war within another countrys sovereign borders. Of course, The Japanese were the only ones with the balls to attack American soil recently and they did it twice, not once. Not to mention the explosive balloons they launched at us. We were invited into Vietnam which is not the same thing as an invasion.
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 07:03:55 "We were invited into Vietnam which is not the same thing as an invasion. " This is a very stupid comment, but it was posted by a notoriously stupid person. In any war there are two sides. One side is always going to welcome their foreign allies aid while to the other side they are foreign enemies. Because some germans welcomed the allies invasion is not the same thing as saying that the allies were invited to germany by any possible stretch of the imagination. You fucking moron.
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 07:08:40 "Of course, The Japanese were the only ones with the balls to attack American soil recently" How quickly you forget 911.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 07:14:14 When the French pulled out Ike sent military advisers to South Vietnam. When Kennedy lost face at The Bay of Pigs his adviser, Schlesinger, told him that a larger contingent of troops could whip the Viet Cong is short order. *****Kennedy's troops entered the fight with the blessing of the government of South Vietnam.***** After Kennedy found out that was not working he was in the process of withdrawing those troops when he was assassinated. Enter LBJ and The Gulf of Tonkin which was proven to be the kind of trickery that Bush was accused of, but never proven, and the full fledged war it turned out to be.
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 07:15:24 Yeah, Soviet did not invade afghanistan, they were invited. Also, civilized humans generally use the word invite for parties and dinners, not fucking mass murdering. You fucking idiot.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 07:15:52 AH - How quickly you forget 911. I thought we were talking about wars, not terrorist attacks.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 07:18:52 AH - Yeah, Soviet did not invade afghanistan, they were invited. That is a true statement. "The Soviet war in Afghanistan was an almost ten-year conflict involving the Soviet Union, supporting the Marxist-Leninist government of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan at their own request against the Mujahideen Resistance..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 07:20:44 I know what happened. Its fucking moronic to say afghanistan invited the soviets. You see if you can work out why and why its generally called an invasion of afghanistan and not an invitation by afghanistan.
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 07:22:12 "Hot Rod Member Thu Sep 23 07:15:52 AH - How quickly you forget 911. I thought we were talking about wars, not terrorist attacks. " Pathetic to see how you distinguish between countries and terrorist cells when it suits you and dont when it doesnt suit you. Cunt.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 07:25:14 All I know is what the history books say. Or in this case, WIKIPEDIA. "Soviet-Afghan relations The USSR had provided aid to Afghanistan as early as 1919, shortly after the Russian Revolution and when the regime was facing the Russian Civil War. Provisions were given in the form of small arms, ammunition, a few aircraft, and (according to debated Soviet sources) a million gold rubles to support the resistance during the Third Anglo-Afghan War. In 1942, the USSR again moved to strengthen the Afghan army, by providing small arms and aircraft, and establishing training centres in Tashkent (Uzbek Soviet). Soviet-Afghan military cooperation began on a regular basis in 1956, and further agreements were made in the 1970s, which saw the USSR send advisers and specialists. A final pre-war treaty, signed in December 1978, allowed the PDPA to call upon the Soviet Union for military support."
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 07:29:38 "All I know is what the history books say. Or in this case, WIKIPEDIA. " No, you also know perfectly well, much as you'll lie that you dont, that the conflict is known as the invasion of afghanistan and not the invitation of afghanistan. There were plenty of prominent people in Britain who welcomed the nazis, just as there were in Austria, Norway, Holland, Denmark, even the USA. Nobody says they were invited. They invaded. You idiot.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 07:30:55 AH - Pathetic to see how you distinguish between countries and terrorist cells when it suits you and dont when it doesnt suit you. *The War On Terror* is a pseudonym for going after international terrorists, but is not a war per se. The only part of TWOT is the war in Afghanistan which was an invasion of a foreign country because they were harboring terrorists. Thay has always been my position.
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 07:34:00 Lets use the source you just recommended, moron. Invasions of Afghanistan From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Afghanistan has been invaded many times, its boundaries and governments almost always in dispute. Invaders include the Mughal rulers of South Asia, Russian Tsars, Soviet Union, British Empire, and currently a coalition force of NATO troops with UN-backing led by US armed forces. Soviet invasion The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan occurred on December 24, 1979, leading to the 1980 Summer Olympics boycott and kick-starting United States funding for Islamic Mujahideen groups who opposed the invasion. WhatWhatWhat??? No hits for Soviet Invitation of Afghanistan???
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 07:34:37 AH - There were plenty of prominent people in Britain who welcomed the nazis, just as there were in Austria, Norway, Holland, Denmark, even the USA. Nobody says they were invited. You are talking about dissidents, not the established government. Only the *established government* can properly invite another country to be their ally on their soil.
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 07:36:21 "Invitation of Afghanistan Did you mean: Invasion of Afghanistan?" http://en....arch=Invitation+of+Afghanistan The worst thing is you know you're wrong. You fucking idiot.
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 07:43:08 Im pretty sure if a rogue dictatorship seized power of the USA and 'invited' Russia to come over and help them kill the 'dissidents' you wouldnt be saying that the USA invited them. I have just a very vague feeling you would say the USA was invaded.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 07:46:50 Also from the same article: "Simultaneously, Amin moved the offices of the president to the Tajbeg Palace, believing this location to be more secure from possible threats. According to Colonel General Tukharinov and Merimsky, Amin was fully informed of the military movements, having requested Soviet military assistance to northern Afghanistan on December 17.[32][33] His brother and General Dmitry Chiangov met with the commander of the 40th Army before Soviet troops entered the country, to work out initial routes and locations for Soviet troops." "In September 1979, Deputy Prime Minister Hafizullah Amin seized power after a palace shootout that resulted in the death of President Taraki. Over two months of instability overwhelmed Amin's regime as he moved against his opponents in the PDPA and the growing rebellion." Evidently Amin was the established government at the time the Soviets entered the country and did so with his blessing and assistance. No doubt the article is conflicting, but there is little doubt Amin was in charge.
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 07:51:48 Idi Amin was in charge too, that doesnt make him a rightful government that can legitimately invite foreign nations to help him kill his countrymen. There were americans that supported george III to rule america. That doesnt mean America invited the Brits to rule over them. Shut up for christs sake.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 07:53:03 AH - Im pretty sure if a rogue dictatorship seized power of the USA and 'invited' Russia to come over and help them kill the 'dissidents' you wouldnt be saying that the USA invited them. I have just a very vague feeling you would say the USA was invaded. Emotionally you may be right, but if the rogue dictatorship had established a viable and functioning government then, dispassionately, I would have to say they were 'invited' even though I would be in the trenches fighting the dictatorship. Some issues like this are not just black and white, there are many subtleties to questions like this. IMHO.
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 07:55:21 "No doubt the article is conflicting" No, but youre almost there. What is conflicting is your pretense that a dictatorship that brings in foreign troops to help them kill their countrymen who are trying to overthrow the dictatorship can possibly be described simply as responding to a legitimate request by the country of afghanistan. Its the request of an illegitimate dictatorship who have seized control of the country through violence and destruction.
Rugian Member	Thu Sep 23 07:56:52 Adolf, it may be worth pointing out that the government of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan which invited Soviet troops was about as legitimite as the Taliban, seeing as how only eight (8!) countries recognized it.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 07:58:12 AH - Idi Amin was in charge too, that doesnt make him a rightful government... No one said anything about a "rightful" government. I said an established government which makes them the legitimate government. The communists are the established/legitimate government of Mainland China in the eyes of the world, but IMHO Taiwan is the 'rightful' government of the Chinese Peoples.
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 07:58:48 "Some issues like this are not just black and white, there are many subtleties to questions like this." Of course there are, as in everything in life, something you usually are the first to deny - until it suits you, that is. that is why you cant say something as black an white as the USA were invited to vietnam. If it was that simple, the viatnamese wouldnt have killed 50,000 americans. dumdumdum
General Populace Member	Thu Sep 23 08:02:50 "No one said anything about a "rightful" government. " And the semantics begin. That's exactly what it means though. Established/legitimate.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 08:06:53 You are calling my opinion 'suiting me'. Your opinion 'suits' you too. That is what makes for disagreements. Hell, there are people that would like to see every country in the world revert to feudalism, but they don't have the power of government behind them. It is the established government that makes the decisions on what direction the country will take.
General Populace Member	Thu Sep 23 08:07:07 I don't want you to think this is a present dinosaur Rod, but here is a Thesaurus. http://thesaurus.com/browse/rightful You're welcome.
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 08:09:53 "You are calling my opinion 'suiting me'. Your opinion 'suits' you too." Ah yes, thats why its just as valid to call it The Soviet Invitation Of Afghanistan as The Soviet Invasion Of Afghanistan. Wait, no its not. Its never been called The Soviet Invitation Of Afghanistan. Its always been called The Soviet Invasion Of Afghanistan by everyone. It would be ridiculous to call it The Soviet Invitation Of Afghanistan. You know that perfectly well, so just shut it. When I am right and you are wrong, stupidly wrong in fact, then I have a valid argument and you dont. Just because you can type words doesnt make them a valid argument.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 08:14:10 Rugian, good point. GP, depends on what you mean as rightful. As Rugian pointed out only 8 countries recognized the PDPA, but they were in charge of their country except for the civil war. The population may not have considered the PDPA their 'right' government, but they were in essence the established government.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 08:19:18 AH - Ah yes, thats why its just as valid to call it The Soviet Invitation Of Afghanistan as The Soviet Invasion Of Afghanistan. If you are not even willing to that we have a difference of opinion then we are truly at an impasse. It has been a pleasure.
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 08:21:25 Of course we have a difference of opinion. The difference is the entire world agrees with me and not with you, hence I didnt make adjustments to suit me as you did.
General Populace Member	Thu Sep 23 08:22:01 What Rugian said and what you are inferring are two fundimentally different things. Eye of the beholder. Though the Taliban established itself and thinks itself as an legitimate government, the populace, or other countries may not view them as that. But they are an established and legitmate government since there is no other government formed (at the time) that held any other type of authorization. We do not recognize Hamas as a legitimate government, but they are the established and legitimate government. I am going to quote you now standby; "No one said anything about a "rightful" government. I said an established government which makes them the legitimate government. " Legitimate means rightful. So you disagreed and agreed with yourself in those two sentences. When AH said rightful it is perfectly alright to acknowledge that it meant the same as you just said "establish/legitmate" because they mean the same damn thing.
General Populace Member	Thu Sep 23 08:23:41 ....so who is twisting words now?
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 08:23:45 Again, just because you can type words doesnt mean they are a legitimate argument. If I say a blue car is a blue car and you say its a rainbow colored dinogator, then sure we have a difference of opinion, mine being correct and yours being stupidly incorrect.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 08:31:43 GP - Though the Taliban established itself and thinks itself as an legitimate government, the populace, or other countries may not view them as that. That was true, but they have been deposed and Afghanistan now has an elected government. They are now the established/legitimate government. >-We do not recognize Hamas as a legitimate government, but they are the established and legitimate government. They are the establised/legitimate government of The Gaza Strip, not the Palestinians. I consider those in The West Bank to be the 'rightful' government. >-I said an established government which makes them the legitimate government. I mean legitimate in terms of making the decisions for the country, simply because they asre ion power.
General Populace Member	Thu Sep 23 08:37:06 Losing Focus Rod... "No one said anything about a "rightful" government. I said an established government which makes them the legitimate government. " -Hot Rod You argued the contrary with AH in regards to the usage of the word "rightful". Legitimate means rightful, thesaurus entry provided. Why are you going in circles about this?
Nimatzo Member	Thu Sep 23 08:40:09 This is a classis Hot Rod thread. Just classic :D
Nimatzo Member	Thu Sep 23 08:43:52 >>They are the establised/legitimate government of The Gaza Strip, not the Palestinians.<< You are dead wrong Hamas was elected by the majority of ALL palestinians meaning those in in the west bank too. Fatah refused to let go of control in the west bank and a civil war ensued. By every definition Hamas is the legitime and rightful government of all palestinians.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 08:44:22 For a government to be 'rightful' as opposed to legitimate there needs to be an entity that claims to be the legitimate government. There was no entity claiming to be the rightful government opposed to the PDPA other than the Mujahideen guerrillas.
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 08:44:46 "That was true, but they have been deposed and Afghanistan now has an elected government. They are now the established/legitimate government." wtf has that got to do with the argument? One country invades another country, kills off the previous government, installs another government that is friendly towards them, and hey presto, the foreign invasion was invited by the new legitimate government that didnt exist at the time of the invasion! Idiot.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 08:50:40 Nimatzo - You are dead wrong Hamas was elected by the majority of ALL palestinians meaning those in in the west bank too. They were elected to a number of seats in their parliament, or whatever they call it, they didd not win the leadership from Fatah. In their civil war they were *only* able to wrest control of Gaza. By your definition the communists are the legitimate government for Taiwan. That may well be your position, if so I disagree.
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 08:52:12 There was no legitimate american government during the British rule of america. Hence there was no entity other than the legitimate British government. Americans who did not accept British rule were thus not a legitimate entity.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 08:57:45 Ergo, Hamas is not the rightful government of the Palestinians because there is a rightful/legitimate government in The West Bank waiting to regain control. They are however, the established government of Gaza. You guys are looking at this as if it were quite simple and all cut and dried. It is really a complex issue that requres the subtleties be considered.
General Populace Member	Thu Sep 23 08:57:55 Is it me or is it that anytime you're discussing plainly, Rod always get's emotionally attached and then lose all objectivity? And this is the result?
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 08:58:31 "The war was the culmination of the political American Revolution, whereby many of the colonists rejected the legitimacy of the Parliament of Great Britain to govern them without representation, claiming that this violated the Rights of Englishmen" Nice to see Dinorod supporting the arguments of the british colonialists vs the illegitimate americans.
General Populace Member	Thu Sep 23 08:58:35 "No one said anything about a "rightful" government. I said an established government which makes them the legitimate government. " -Hot Rod
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 09:01:14 "You guys are looking at this as if it were quite simple and all cut and dried. It is really a complex issue that requres the subtleties be considered. " So you finally agree that saying the USA were invited to Vietnam and Russia were invited to afghanistan is a simplification of a decidedly more complex matter. Thank you.
Nimatzo Member	Thu Sep 23 09:04:05 I just explained to you that Hamas won a democratic election to govern all the palestinian territories, not just Gaza.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 09:07:56 AH - There was no legitimate american government during the British rule of america. Hence there was no entity other than the legitimate British government. Americans who did not accept British rule were thus not a legitimate entity. By 'George' I think you've got it. (No pun intended.) :) The American Revolution was just that, a revolution. They were not the established/legitimate or 'rightful' government of The Colonies. They revolted, won their revolution and established a legitimate government that became a rightful government through free elections. (And yes, I am aware that only property owners were allowed to vote at the beginning.)
Rugian Member	Thu Sep 23 09:09:00 Nimatzo Member Thu Sep 23 09:04:05 I just explained to you that Hamas won a democratic election to govern all the palestinian territories, not just Gaza. Similarly, it's widely believed that had not Ngo Dinh Diem (who had come to power through blatantly fraudelent means) not cancelled the reunification elections, South Vietnam would have voted to merge with North Vietnam, making the North Vietnamese government the legitimite one.
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 09:09:12 Btw, its not complex at all. If Country X is plunged into civil war and one side calls upon foreign aid to help them beat the other side, then you dont say Country X has invited you. You say one side of Country X has invited you and the other side refuses you. Thats not complex in the slightest, thats very straight forward.
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 09:10:28 The only thing complex about that is when you try to pretend that Country X invited foreign aid and try to pretend that its that simple and get stuck in your tangled web of nonsense.
Nimatzo Member	Thu Sep 23 09:10:39 So thats 58 000 american lives and a couple million vietnamese for nothing.
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 09:13:51 "The American Revolution was just that, a revolution. They were not the established/legitimate or 'rightful' government of The Colonies. They revolted, won their revolution and established a legitimate government that became a rightful government through free elections. " Thus, you fucking waste of time, you cant say America invited the Brits when some did and some didnt.
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 09:15:09 Repeat for the village idjit: Btw, its not complex at all. If Country X is plunged into civil war and one side calls upon foreign aid to help them beat the other side, then you dont say Country X has invited you. You say one side of Country X has invited you and the other side refuses you. Thats not complex in the slightest, thats very straight forward.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 09:16:23 Nimatzo - I just explained to you that Hamas won a democratic election to govern all the palestinian territories, not just Gaza. And I just explained to you that they did *NOT* win the leadership of the Palestinian peoples. The won *some seats* in their legislative assembly. The republicans hold a number of seats in both houses on our Congress here in The US, but the leadership is held by President Obama, a Democrat.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 09:26:46 AH - Btw, its not complex at all. If Country X is plunged into civil war and one side calls upon foreign aid to help them beat the other side, then you dont say Country X has invited you. You say one side of Country X has invited you and the other side refuses you. One last time: It depends on which side is making the offer. If the government in power makes the offer, it is an invitation. If it is the rebels, it is an invasion. Quit trying to simplify it before you understand the subtleties.
roland Member	Thu Sep 23 09:33:23 "And I just explained to you that they did *NOT* win the leadership of the Palestinian peoples. The won *some seats* in their legislative assembly. " Actually, they won the majority of seats in their legislation council, not just *some seats*.
Nekran Member	Thu Sep 23 09:36:37 Most succesful troll thread in quite a while, I reckon.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 09:56:14 roland, you are correct. I didn't realize they won the majority of seats and had formed a new government. This makes them the established/legitimate and 'rightful' government of Palestine and it makes Abbas' government a revolutionary government that controls half the country Like the PDPA, Hamas is only recognized as a rightful leader by a limited number of countries. Fatah, while claiming to be the rightful government actually isn't, they are a revolutionary government. Adding another layer to the complexity of relations between nations.
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 09:59:30 One last time: My mom is at home reading the morning newspaper and drinking tea and your mom is a stinking cesspuddle of lice-infested rotting sludge in a dark, cold hole in the ground. :)
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 10:01:07 AH, this is an adult conversation. If you can't be mature, go fuck yourself.
Paramount Member	Thu Sep 23 10:01:48 "...except the war when they killed each other centuries ago, they have been invaders in another peoples country. Discuss." USA has also never a won a war. They lost in Vietnam, Bay of Pigs, Somalia, and they are about to surrender and withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan. The only reason why they won over Japan is because they nuked hundred of thousands of civilians, and the WW2 was already won by England and Russia.
Rugian Member	Thu Sep 23 10:03:50 "USA has also never a won a war. They lost in Vietnam, Bay of Pigs, Somalia, and they are about to surrender and withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan. The only reason why they won over Japan is because they nuked hundred of thousands of civilians, and the WW2 was already won by England and Russia." I was going to point out the Mexican-American War, but demographically the Mexicans seem poised to reconquer the territories we took from them in that conflict, so that's a long-term loss.
Paramountme Member	Thu Sep 23 10:04:19 The poster who has a similar name to my own is also not known for his historical knowledge.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Sep 23 10:05:42 "WW2 was already won by England and Russia." LOL, yeah. England was just getting ready to cross The Channel with 30 fully equipped combat divisions.
Rugian Member	Thu Sep 23 10:07:06 Also, regarding this, "and the WW2 was already won by England and Russia." While it is true that the Soviet Union did the VAST majority of the winning for the Allies in the European front, they hadn't come close to winning the war by the time we entered. Also, that whole Pacific war thingy? All us, baby. WOO
Adolf Hitler Member	Thu Sep 23 10:07:34 Your mom Rod...a bucketful of larvae-bubbling slime, rotting in a hole in the ground, while mine sips tea. This makes me smile :)
kargen Member	Thu Sep 23 13:21:15 This is very simple. If the ruling government asks for your help in a war, or willingly accepts your help in a war then you are not invading. If you enter the country to fight the ruling government unprovoked by prior military action that is invasion.
adolf HitlEr Member	Thu Sep 23 13:40:17 Another one of the far-right jesus freaks who thinks the soviet invasion of afghanistan actually was the soviet invitation of afghanistan... You're all alone in the world with this theory. Man you people are freaks. Why do you think the entire world calls it the soviet invitation of afghanistan and not the invitation?
adolf HitlEr Member	Thu Sep 23 13:40:37 *Why do you think the entire world calls it the soviet invasion of afghanistan and not the invitation?
adolf HitlEr Member	Thu Sep 23 13:53:48 Just admit it. If you were watching a discovery show about the *invasion* of afghanistan and there was an ex-soviet general reminiscing his days during the invitation of afghanistan, explaining how they were there because afghanistan invited them, you'd be fuming and talking a whole different talk. Wouldnt you? You'd be saying: "did you just hear what that damn commie said?!!" You cannot say afghanistan invited them to come and kill them, you could however say the dictatorial regime invited them to help wage war on the afghan population.
Milton Bradley Member	Thu Sep 23 16:42:49 Adolf Hitler Member Thu Sep 23 07:08:40 "Of course, The Japanese were the only ones with the balls to attack American soil recently" How quickly you forget 911. We actually have PROOF that the japs attacked the US. 9/11 is just a CT.
Paramountme Member	Thu Sep 23 16:43:55 Yes a CT according to the Iranian President Dipshit. An elaborate plot by the US to jumpstart the economy.
Milton Bradley Member	Thu Sep 23 16:46:34 "Yes a CT according to the Iranian President Dipshit." I believe the Iranian President is named Ahmadinejad, not Dipshit.
Paramountme Member	Thu Sep 23 16:47:11 Dipshit. He recently got a name change.
Milton Bradley Member	Thu Sep 23 16:48:30 Either way, there's no solid proof who did 9/11, only theories.
Paramountme Member	Thu Sep 23 16:49:31 Keep living that dream...
Milton Bradley Member	Thu Sep 23 16:50:57 Post a link to the proof then.
roland Member	Thu Sep 23 16:51:05 "This makes them the established/legitimate and 'rightful' government of Palestine and it makes Abbas' government a revolutionary government that controls half the country " That's false, Abbas was still the president, but the day to day running of the country is run by Hamas, at least for that time. However, after the Israel-Palestinian war erupted in 2006, Israel pretty much cut off Gaza from West Bank, making it impossible for Hamas to govern the west bank, the Fatah stronghold.
ISpeekidLikdaWeTod Member	Thu Sep 23 16:51:48 Ownli uh weetod wuld clum dat
ISpeekidLikdaWeTod Member	Thu Sep 23 16:53:51 poost leenk ov deespruf den.
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