Utopia Talk / Politics / Drunk Illegal Alien Kills Nun

Hot Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 07:41:44 Proponents of tougher immigration policies focus on suspect in crash that killed nun By Paul Duggan and Carol Morello Washington Post Staff Writers Thursday, August 5, 2010 Proponents of tougher immigration enforcement have seized on the case of a Bolivian man charged with killing a nun and critically injuring two others while driving drunk as a symbol of a badly broken immigration system. Carlos A. Martinelly-Montano, 23, who entered the United States illegally at age 8 with his parents and sister, has been awaiting a deportation hearing after two convictions for drunken driving in 2007 and 2008. His case has been postponed three times -- and it is one of about 243,000 cases that are clogging immigration courts, according to statistics compiled by Syracuse University. Because of the backlog, it takes 15 months to conclude the average case. Martinelly-Montano's has dragged on for nearly two years. Immigrant advocates and groups such as Mothers Against Drunk Driving have said that this is a case about drunken driving, not illegal immigration. The nuns' order, the Benedictine Sisters of Virginia, has asked that the crash not be politicized. But Martinelly-Montano has become Exhibit A in calls to stiffen immigration enforcement since his car swerved Sunday into the path of a vehicle carrying three nuns who were on their way to a retreat in Prince William County. He told police he didn't remember the crash, according to the arrest warrant. Prince William Commonwealth's Attorney Paul Ebert said he intends to ask a grand jury to return a second-degree murder indictment next month. A wake will be held Thursday for Sister Denise Mosier, 66, and her funeral will be Friday. The two nuns injured in the crash, Sister Connie Ruth Lupton, 75, and Sister Charlotte Lange, 70, remained in critical condition Wednesday. Corey A. Stewart, chairman of the Prince William Board of County Supervisors, said Wednesday that Congress, President Obama and Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano "all have blood on their hands." "This tragedy is not due to some mistake by some low-level staff at the Department of Homeland Security," said Stewart (R-At Large). "The president and Congress have deliberately starved the department to the point that [Immigration and Customs Enforcement] doesn't even have the resources to hold and deport illegal aliens who commit crimes in our communities." ad_icon Martinelly-Montano's journey through the immigration system is hard to verify, because privacy rules bar officials from discussing specifics of the case. Homeland Security officials will conduct an internal review to determine why the effort to deport Martinelly-Montano after his second drunken-driving arrest, in 2008, was incomplete at the time of Sunday's crash. His mother, Maria Martinelly, said in an interview that she, husband Alejandro, Martinelly-Montano and a daughter entered the United States illegally from Bolivia in 1996. They filed for permission to live here permanently in 2001 -- an application that she described as still pending -- and were granted work permits in 2007, she said. Martinelly showed the employment authorization cards, which were issued by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, to a Washington Post reporter this week. But work permits do not confer legal status to undocumented immigrants, said Crystal L. Williams, executive director of the American Immigration Lawyers Association. "That's actually a common misunderstanding of people who get employment cards," she said. "When they get the card, it makes them think they're legal. In fact, all the government is saying to them is: 'You have what appears on its face to be a valid petition for legal residency. So while we're trying to decide that, we'll let you work.' " After Martinelly-Montano's first drunken-driving arrest, in Prince William in 2007, ICE apparently was not notified of the charge, said an ICE official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the case. The agency's first contact with him was after his second drunken-driving arrest in 2008, also in Prince William, the official said. Martinelly-Montano served no jail time in the first case and 20 days in the second. Although Martinelly-Montano had a work permit at the time of his October 2008 arrest, he had not been granted legal status, the official said. A month after that arrest, the official said, ICE began trying to have him deported. Even if he had been granted legal status by then, Williams said, he still would have been "removable." She said ICE probably would have sought deportation based on the drunken-driving arrests, regardless of his status. Martinelly-Montano's deportation hearing before an immigration judge was initially scheduled for April 21, 2009, six months after ICE had first encountered him, said Elaine Komis, a spokeswoman for the immigration court. In the meantime, rather than detaining him, ICE allowed Martinelly-Montano to remain free on his own recognizance, the official said. Williams said ICE typically detains violent criminals pending deportation hearings but not convicted drunk drivers. "There's not enough room in the jails, and it's incredibly expensive," she said. "The federal government has got to make these choices, and does every day, on how to best use taxpayer resources." Citing privacy rules, Komis would not disclose why Martinelly-Montano's hearing was repeatedly delayed -- from April 2009 to May 7, 2009; then to Dec. 3, 2009; then to Aug. 19. Williams said that the number of continuances in Martinelly-Montano's case was "a bit unusual," although it is common for lawyers on both sides to seek delays. "That happens a lot," she said. Critics of the immigration system say that's part of the problem. "Here is a perfect example of how our government at various levels -- state, federal and local -- is failing to protect the public safety," said Greg Letiecq, head of the anti-illegal immigrant group Help Save Manassas. "If the government had done the job they promised us they would do, and kept illegal aliens out of this country, a nun would be alive today." Staff writers Jennifer Buske and Kevin Sieff contributed to this report. http://www...010/08/04/AR2010080406937.html
Rugian Member	Thu Aug 05 08:00:44 The Guardian: Illegal immigration has enough valid arguments against it. So why, instead of using those valid arguments, are you focusing on anecdotal examples which are totally useless for dictating the policy of a country of 300 million people?
Hot Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 08:17:23 Because they are valid arguments too.
Rugian Member	Thu Aug 05 08:20:32 No they are not. You can't ban or allow anything based on an anecdotal example you idiot. The laws of probability say that ANYTHING that could happen will eventually happen, regardless of any trends the country is experiencing. TRENDS are relevant. Individual examples that are independent of trends are not.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 08:31:28 Are you now saying that this is the only American killed by an illegal drunk alien, or are you just not making yourself clear.
Cold Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 08:34:42 Where is he saying that? Good god...
Hot Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 08:42:40 "Individual examples that are independent of trends are not."
Cold Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 09:29:25 You are misinterpreting what he is saying. The trend being that people are dying from drunk drivers. And individual in that trend happends to be an illegal immigrant. This doesn't not mean that illegal immigrants are the trend commiting DUI's and killing people.
INTERESTING FACTS Member	Thu Aug 05 09:33:57 In the United States the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) estimates that 17,941 people died in 2006 in "alcohol-related" collisions, representing 40% of total traffic deaths in the US. NHTSA states 275,000 were injured in alcohol-related accidents in 2003 according to DOT HS 809775, a.k.a. Traffic Safety Facts 2003.
miltonfriedman Member	Thu Aug 05 09:34:05 HR, this kind of trolling is quite pathetic. Is this how you want people to do when you post here now?
Hot Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 09:45:56 mf, I think this is just one more reason that we should get rid of all illegals. Perhaps one death is insignificant to the liberal mindset, I think it is one too many. This is no more out of place than the very next thread on police brutality.
Cold Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 09:47:40 "Perhaps one death is insignificant to the liberal mindset, I think it is one too many. " So are you saying that getting rid of illegal aliens will stop all deaths?
Allahuakbar Member	Thu Aug 05 09:49:57 Let more true muslims into the USA: they don't drink alcohol!
miltonfriedman Member	Thu Aug 05 10:22:05 "Perhaps one death is insignificant to the liberal mindset, I think it is one too many." Interesting. Here is what you said about genocides: "80% of the Muslims should be killed."
Clitoral Hood The Bloody Scourge	Thu Aug 05 10:32:59 "Perhaps one death is insignificant to the liberal mindset, I think it is one too many." k. a republican flew an airplane into a public building and killed at least one person. lets get rid of all of the republicans.
Canadian Member	Thu Aug 05 12:12:11 Hot Rod would be okay with that, as he's a libertarian.
Clitoral Hood The Bloody Scourge	Thu Aug 05 12:13:26 in voice, maybe. but you can apply the logic to any group on the planet. there will *always* be someone to ruin the name of everyone else. the people who focus on those tards are even worse than the tards themselves.
Trolly McCool Member	Thu Aug 05 12:22:23 Hot Rod, giving the American right a bad name since 1927.
Trolly McCool Member	Thu Aug 05 12:24:11 "Carlos A. Martinelly-Montano, 23, who entered the United States illegally at age 8 with his parents and sister, has been awaiting a deportation hearing after two convictions for drunken driving in 2007 and 2008. His case has been postponed three times -- and it is one of about 243,000 cases that are clogging immigration courts, according to statistics compiled by Syracuse University. Because of the backlog, it takes 15 months to conclude the average case. Martinelly-Montano's has dragged on for nearly two years. " Clearly enforcement is not an issue here. It is the backlog of cases brought about by insufficient resources to prosecute these cases. More enforcement would just lead to a bigger backlog. The ideal solution is more resources dedicated to immigration courts to clear the backlog.
Signal 2 member	Thu Aug 05 12:27:32 Trolly McCool: "The door in question, which habebe has not eluded to his not even damage." Congrats sir.
Signal 2 member	Thu Aug 05 12:28:29 Great, my copy and paste is even subpar this day as well. I should just go back to sleep. Trolly McCool: The ideal solution is more resources dedicated to immigration courts to clear the backlog. Congrats sir.
Paramount Member	Thu Aug 05 12:42:55 "You can't ban or allow anything based on an anecdotal example you idiot." Hot Rod can.
Madc0w Member	Thu Aug 05 12:44:46 This is not an argument against illegal immigration. People are going to be killed by drunk drivers no matter how few illegal immigrants are in the country.
werewolf dictator Member	Thu Aug 05 13:05:31 no one will die from drunk driving in usa if usa population is 0.. one more good argument for antinatalism against breeders..
Hot Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 16:28:33 What is wrong with you people? Do you have any idea what you are posting? We are talking about people who have broken our laws and have absolutely zero right to be in this country. You guys are the stupidest conglomeration of liberals I have ever seen outside the current Obama administration.
Cold Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 16:32:28 That is right we are talking about people who broke our laws. But what you are implying on this topic is incorrect.
miltonfriedman Member	Thu Aug 05 16:33:05 nigga plz. You just said you would like to see 80 million Muslims killed and then said that would be "cool." Besides, you have personally killed 2 underage boys in your crawlspace. So really, free lil' Davey first before you start moralizing.
habebe Member	Thu Aug 05 16:33:29 " Illegal immigration has enough valid arguments against it. So why, instead of using those valid arguments, are you focusing on anecdotal examples which are totally useless for dictating the policy of a country of 300 million people?" Agrees...
Madc0w Member	Thu Aug 05 16:35:33 "We are talking about people who have broken our laws and have absolutely zero right to be in this country." And? That should be your argument against illegal immigration, not that a drunk driver who happened to be an illegal alien ended up killing a nun.
werewolf dictator Member	Thu Aug 05 18:24:13 'We are talking about people who have broken our laws and have absolutely zero right to be in this country. ' Ayn Rand: Illegal Immigrant? http://fre...nders-no-will-for-freedom.html As further background you should know that Ayn Rand was both Jewish and an immigrant herself. And we should be clear that Ayn, in order to escape communist Russia, lied to get into the United States. She basically entered the country illegally. As has been well documented, the young Ayn pretended to be coming to the U.S. in order to study the film industry so that she could return to Russia to work in the film industry there. Her first actually published writings were two booklets the Soviets published by Rand about the American film industry. Rand, however, knew she had no intention of ever returning to Russia. Rand's biographer and friend, Barbara Branden, also an immigrant and Jewish, described Ayn's dilemma. Even though Ayn had secured Soviet permission to visit the U.S. for six months, she still had to secure a U.S. visa. Anti-immigrant hysteria in the U.S. had lead to the passing of numerous laws meant to keep out immigrants of a certain kind: and among them were Eastern Europeans, mainly Jews who were fleeing a history of pogroms against them. Branden says Ayn could only secure a visa "if she could convince the consul that she did not plan to remain in the United States," this in spite of her having every intention of staying in the U.S. Rand had already decided that if the visa were turned down by the consulate in Latvia, where she had to travel to receive it, "she would vanish into the anonymity of Latvia, and find a way to flee to Europe." When Ayn meet with the U.S. consulate official, who would approve or deny her visa, "she thought she must tell him every reason she could invent to convince him that she wished to return to Russia." As the official was looking over her application she read the dossier he had in front of him. She noticed it said she was engaged to marry an American. Ayn pounced, insisting that the information was wrong. And then she embellished the truth by saying that she was engaged, but to a Russian whom she would marry upon her return. She was not actually engaged to anyone. The official took a closer look and realized that her papers had been confused with another woman's and told her he was about to deny her the visa but would now approve itâ??after all, she was to be married in Russia, after her temporary visit to the U.S. As far as I can see, Ayn Rand was forced to lie to U.S. officials in order to secure a visa to come to America. I am no expert on 1920 immigration law but I suspect that lying to secure a visa is itself a crime, perhaps one that would be considered severe enough to cause the cancellation of said visa. Ayn Rand secured her visa under false pretenses, but I don't fault her, legal (truthful) immigration had been closed to her. So, in order to get the papers she needed, she invented a lie. She most likely broke the law to do so and I suggest that her immigration to the United States was illegal as a result. After her arrival in the country, she did go to Hollywood and the rest is history. She met and married Frank O'Connor, and because of that marriage she became a citizen. It was also well known to O'Connor that the marriage was necessary for Ayn to remain in the United States. A law is a law. But what about rights? Now I want to turn to precisely what Mr. Thomas said and why I find it so objectionable from a libertarian, even an Objectivist, viewpoint. The Thomas piece starts with the premises: "illegal immigration is illegal, isn't it?" Yes, so is marijuana, so was sodomy up until a couple of years ago, and so are numerous things defended by Objectivists. Objectivists, would even argue that people have the right to engage in activities that are illegal. Rights trump the law, which was a major point of Rand's theory. She argued that individual rights limit the power of the state, not that the power of the state limits individual rights.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 18:46:48 Interesting, thank you.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 18:52:50 wd, have you ever read, 'We The Living.' An interesting novel, not preachy like Atlas Shrugged. It will show you why she was so desoerate to escape. BTW, I had a friend who spent over three years trying to get permission to vacation outside Bulgaria, He got off the boat in Nice, France and never looked back.
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Thu Aug 05 19:51:31 'No they are not. You can't ban or allow anything based on an anecdotal example you idiot. The laws of probability say that ANYTHING that could happen will eventually happen, regardless of any trends the country is experiencing. ' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_probability The appeal to probability is a logical fallacy. It assumes that because something could happen, it is inevitable that it will happen. This is flawed logic, regardless of the likelihood of the event in question. The fallacy is often used to exploit paranoia. Explanation The logical idea behind this fallacy is that, given a whichever event P, if the probability of P occurring is not strictly 0, it is best to assume that P will occur, since it will almost surely happen, provided that enough time be granted. The fallacy incorrectly applies a common tenet of probability: given a sufficiently large sample space, an event X of nonzero probability P(X) will occur at least once, regardless of the magnitude of P(X). This is derived from the definition of probability. The operative term is "given a sufficiently large sample space". Virtually all events are considered for probability within a finite number of samples, and the chance that X will occur in a given finite space S is directly proportional to S. Given a finite number of events S, each of which is X or not X, a sample space Y = 2PrS exists where one possibility is that all events in S are not X. Therefore, P(X in Y) = (Y-1)/Y. Because Y-1/Y < 1 for all finite Y, P(X in Y) < 1 regardless of P(X) or Y. There is thus always a chance that X will not occur, and therefore, no proof that X will occur given its probability.
miltonfriedman Member	Thu Aug 05 19:55:04 Isn't it funny that just yesterday Hot Rod was telling people how "cool" it is to kill 80 million Muslims worldwide?
Hot Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 20:00:09 Here's your sign.
miltonfriedman Member	Thu Aug 05 20:04:39 Do you want me to do this the next time you start a thread, HR?
Hot Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 20:06:19 Seems to me that I started this thread and you are the one spamming it. Here's your sign.
miltonfriedman Member	Thu Aug 05 20:08:00 And you should be thankful that I have enough honor to not spamming your thread by typing the same phrase over and over again. But like I said, this could be arranged for now on.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 20:09:08 Here's your sign.
miltonfriedman Member	Thu Aug 05 20:09:56 Excellent. It shouldn't be too difficult to get others to join in as well.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 20:10:53 Have you ever considered making an intelligent contribution to a thread? You might get a different answer.
miltonfriedman Member	Thu Aug 05 20:16:14 HR, that comes with an intelligent thread. Like I said, since you are eager to get people to respond to you using the same phrase over and over again from now on, I am happy to do so with your threads.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 20:17:34 An intelligent person will pass on a thread that doesn't interest them. Here's your sign.
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Thu Aug 05 20:18:02 'Have you ever considered making an intelligent contribution to a thread? You might get a different answer. ' Considering the fact that your definition of an intelligent contribution is solely limited to statements agreeing with your OP, regardless of how absurd it is, why would anyone bother?
miltonfriedman Member	Thu Aug 05 20:23:53 "An intelligent person will pass on a thread that doesn't interest them. Here's your sign." We can't talk to you because you are dead.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 20:24:08 clit, wrong. An intelligent contribution has to do with the subject of the thread either pro or con, makes no difference. An intelligent contribution has nothing to do with pedo comments, killing a bunch of people who deserve it or any of a number of ad hominum attacks on the poster, just for the fun of it. You see, that is the problem with this forum now. You guys have forgotten the art of conversation.
miltonfriedman Member	Thu Aug 05 20:24:27 We can't talk to you because you are dead.
miltonfriedman Member	Thu Aug 05 20:30:59 "Considering the fact that your definition of an intelligent contribution is solely limited to statements agreeing with your OP, regardless of how absurd it is, why would anyone bother? " There is no way to contribute in a meaningful manner because HR will troll those who disagree with him (e.g., say that liberals like to see illegal immigrants killing nuns, when HR himself wrote about how he wants to kill 80 million Muslims yesterday). And when his trolling fails, he starts spamming the thread by using the same phrase over and over again. Like I said, I can arrange this kind of silly spamming as long as HR wants it.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 21:01:56 "Considering the fact that your definition of an intelligent contribution is solely limited to statements agreeing with your OP, regardless of how absurd it is, why would anyone bother? " As I said, "An intelligent person will pass on a thread that doesn't interest them."
Clitoral Hood The Bloody Scourge	Thu Aug 05 21:44:23 "clit, wrong. An intelligent contribution has to do with the subject of the thread either pro or con, makes no difference. An intelligent contribution has nothing to do with pedo comments, killing a bunch of people who deserve it or any of a number of ad hominum attacks on the poster, just for the fun of it. You see, that is the problem with this forum now. You guys have forgotten the art of conversation." when did I post about intelligent contributions?
Madc0w Member	Thu Aug 05 21:59:07 He confused you with miltonfriedman.
Madc0w Member	Thu Aug 05 22:00:29 Or Cthulhu, rather. A rare failure on my part.
Clitoral Hood The Bloody Scourge	Thu Aug 05 22:04:48 I know. I just find it amusing that an "intelligent contribution" was prefaced with such an obvious fail.
Hot Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 23:26:58 >-when did I post about intelligent contributions? Thu Aug 05 20:18:02 Considering the fact that your definition of an intelligent contribution is solely limited to statements agreeing with your OP, regardless of how absurd it is, why would anyone bother?
Clitoral Hood The Bloody Scourge	Thu Aug 05 23:29:29 I think you're confusing me with... who the fuck knows who you're confusing me with. you're just fuckin confused. and wrong.
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Thu Aug 05 23:29:58 Clitoral hood is not me HR
Hot Rod Member	Thu Aug 05 23:32:53 >-I think you're confusing me with... It appears so. Big deal.
Adolf Hitler Member	Fri Aug 06 05:06:10 such fail lol
Adolf Hitler Member	Fri Aug 06 05:20:19 "There is no way to contribute in a meaningful manner because HR will troll those who disagree with him (e.g., say that liberals like to see illegal immigrants killing nuns, when HR himself wrote about how he wants to kill 80 million Muslims yesterday)" Nonono, 80 millions isnt even close, he said he wants 800 million killed. But dont you dare go calling him genocidal, thats almost as insulting to him as calling him a pedo.
Hot Rod Member	Fri Aug 06 06:57:14 There's your tell. Here's your sign.
Signal 2 member	Fri Aug 06 08:29:42 This argument by the OP is as bad as the argument to enforce laws for cell phone usage by motorists. Especially such reactionary laws to specifically ban texting.
Hot Rod Member	Fri Aug 06 08:49:31 S2, this guy was arrested twice for drunk driving and released into the population both times. It was known he was in this country illegally. A backlog is no excuse for such irresponsibility. Two things need to be done to relieve the backlog. 1. Any illegal guilty of a crime such as DD should be held until they can be deported. I would suggest setting up tent cities close to the border to hold them. They have no rights to our Constitutional protections. Serious crimes they should server their time and then deported. 2. Streamline the deportation process. When they caught VanderVoot in South America they took him to the border within a day or so and expelled him into the handa of those who wanted him. Perhaps the US could not get that streamlined, but they can sure beat 15 months by a long shot.
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 06 08:58:36 How much do you think the government should spend on catching the odd illegal alien who DD's a nun every 50 years?
Hot Rod Member	Fri Aug 06 09:00:34 "But the carnage wrought by illegal alien murderers represents only a fraction of the pool of blood spilled by American citizens as a result of an open border and un-enforced immigration laws. While King reports 12 Americans are murdered daily by illegal aliens, he says 13 are killed by drunk illegal alien drivers â?? for another annual death toll of 4,745. That's 23,725 since Sept. 11, 2001. While no one â?? in or out of government â?? tracks all U.S. accidents caused by illegal aliens, the statistical and anecdotal evidence suggests many of last year's 42,636 road deaths involved illegal aliens." http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=39031
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 06 09:03:29 wnd is a terrible source. The WND backs the obama forged birth certificate conspiracy and thus has proven it cannot be relied on.
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 06 09:06:52 Or, to put it bluntly: here's your sign.
Hot Rod Member	Fri Aug 06 09:07:40 mb - How much do you think the government should spend on catching the odd illegal alien who DD's a nun every 50 years? If all illegal alien drunk drivers are locked up until they can be deported it would save lives. Had the subject in question been locked away the first time that Nun would still be alive. But he was released and he went out and drunk drove again and again. Why should he worry, if he was caught the third time or the fourth or the fifth... he would ha just been released again. Lock them up till they can be deported and there will be fewer infractions.
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 06 09:09:29 Still waiting for real figures and an answer to my question; How much should the government be paying to save that figure which is yet to be substantiated?
Hot Rod Member	Fri Aug 06 09:11:06 Don't tell me it is a terrible source, that is a cop out. Give me some better stats if you have them.
Signal 2 member	Fri Aug 06 09:11:34 I am not arguing agaisnt removing his ass. But backlog is an excuse. This is a common thing in our system as you may or may not know. That is where the problem lies I am sure you know. And the argument to hold them, the argument is that they do not have enough resources or rooms to do so. Which is why in our courts that Plea Bargains are so common to alleviate such volume. But this "one" and I use quotations to represent that as a small percentage representing the whole as an argument against illegal-immigrants is weak. The validity of that example to use as an argument is as said earlier, anecdotal. Let me put it to you this way; Predating cell phone/ texting laws in some states. You have 99 people driving not using such devices, however 10 of those 99 are using such devices and 3 out of that 10 got into crashes, got killed, or killed. So a lawmaker sees that data and then makes law to ban such devices in cars. The question; a) is that a good reason to pass a law banning cell phones for motorists? b) is that a poor reason to pass a law banning cell phones for motorists?
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 06 09:12:06 WND began an online petition to have Obama's Hawaiian birth certificate released to the public. The website also unsuccessfully urged Supreme Court justices to hear the Donofrio, Berg and Keyes lawsuits.[21] In May 2009, WND began collecting money to erect billboards asking, "Where's the Birth Certificate?", the first three of which appeared in Louisiana, Pennsylvania, and Los Angeles.[22] Several WND commentators have written columns demanding that the birth certificate be released, including Farah; Corsi; Christian television host Hal Lindsey;[23] Faith and Values Coalition co-chair Janet Porter[24][25] and talk radio host Barbara Simpson.[26] WND has claimed it is confirmed that President Obama has spent at least $1.7 million on lawyers defending against requests for his birth certificate.[27] if youre going to use that site as a source, all I can say is: Heres your chimney
Cold Rod Member	Fri Aug 06 09:20:23 Crimes committed by illegal immigrants According to Edmonton and Smith in The New Americans: Economic, Demographic, and Fiscal Effects of Immigration, "it is difficult to draw any strong conclusions on the association between immigration and crime".[60] Cities with large immigrant populations showed larger reductions in property and violent crime than cities without large immigrant populations.[117] Almost all of what is known about immigration and crime is from information on those in prison. Incarceration rates do not necessarily reflect differences in current crime rates.[60] A few of the other reasons also cited for why the extent of illegal immigrants' criminal activities is unknown are as follows: For many minor crimes, especially crimes involving juveniles, those who are apprehended are not arrested. Only a fraction of those who are arrested are ever brought to the courts for disposition.[60] Many illegal immigrants who are apprehended by Border Patrol agents are voluntarily returned to their home countries and are not ordinarily tabulated in national crime statistics. If immigrants, whether illegal or legal, are apprehended entering the United States while committing a crime, they are usually charged under federal statutes and, if convicted, are sent to federal prisons. Throughout this entire process, immigrants may have a chance of deportation, or of sentencing that is different from that for a native-born person.[60] We lack comprehensive information on whether arrested or jailed immigrants are illegal immigrants, nonimmigrants, or legal immigrants. Such information can be difficult to collect because immigrants may have a reason to provide false statements (if they reply that they are an illegal immigrant, they can be deported, for instance). The verification of the data is troublesome because it requires matching INS records with individuals who often lack documentation or present false documents.[60] Noncitizens may have had fewer years residing in the United States than citizens, and thus less time in which to commit crimes and be apprehended.[60] In 1999, law enforcement activities involving unauthorized immigrants in California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas cost a combined total of more than $108 million. This cost did not include activities related to border enforcement. In San Diego County, the expense (over $50 million) was nine percent of the total county's budget for law enforcement that year.[118] A study by the Public Policy Institute of California, found that, "cities with large immigrant populations showed larger reductions in property and violent crime than cities without large immigrant populations" but adds, "As with most studies, we do not have ideal data. This lack of data restricts the questions we will be able to answer. In particular, we cannot focus on the undocumented population explicitly".[119] A study published by the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas has found that while property-related crime rates have not been affected by increased immigration (both legal and illegal), in border counties there is a significant positive correlation between illegal immigration and violent crime, most likely due to extensive smuggling activity along the border.[120] Another study, by the immigrant-advocacy group, Immigration Policy Center, based on U.S. Census Bureau data, found that large increases in illegal immigration do not result in a rise in crime[121] On August 6, 2008, an audit done by agents of Immigration and Customs Enforcement found that 122 of the 637 jail inmates in the Lake County, Illinois jail were of questionable immigration status. Of those 122 originally suspected, only 75 were later ordered to face deportation proceedings by the ICE. According to Lake County sheriff Mark Curran, illegal immigrants were charged with half of the 14 murders in the county.[122]
Hot Rod Member	Fri Aug 06 09:47:54 MB, so you don't have a source that can refute MND. Cool. S2 - But backlog is an excuse. This is a common thing in our system as you may or may not know. Once more, "2. Streamline the deportation process. When they caught VanderVoot in South America they took him to the border within a day or so and expelled him into the handa of those who wanted him. Perhaps the US could not get that streamlined, but they can sure beat 15 months by a long shot." S2 - And the argument to hold them, the argument is that they do not have enough resources or rooms to do so. Once more, "1. Any illegal guilty of a crime such as DD should be held until they can be deported. I would suggest setting up tent cities close to the border to hold them. They have no rights to our Constitutional protections. Serious crimes they should server their time and then deported." S2 - But this "one" and I use quotations to represent that as a small percentage representing the whole as an argument against illegal-immigrants is weak. WND has provided these stats, "Milton Bradely" is unable to refute the stats, only the source. S2, this thread is not about cell phones. It is about illegal aliens who get drunk and kill people. It is also about illegal aliens that commit any crime on US soil. It is also about ileegal aliens that are breaking the law by being in this country without permission. Sorry, I'm not as forgiving as others. Give me just one valid reason why anyone who is here illegally has a legal right to be here and I will change my mind.
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 06 09:52:10 if youre going to use that site as a source, all I can say is: Heres your chimney
Hot Rod Member	Fri Aug 06 10:02:46 >-"As with most studies, we do not have ideal data. This lack of data restricts the questions we will be able to answer. In particular, we cannot focus on the undocumented population explicitly". Without ideal data and with no other source haw can WND's states be dismissed out of hand? >-On August 6, 2008, an audit done by agents of Immigration and Customs Enforcement found that 122 of the 637 jail inmates in the Lake County, Illinois jail were of questionable immigration status. Of those 122 originally suspected, only 75 were later ordered to face deportation proceedings by the ICE. The fact that 8.49% of the inmates in jail at that pinpoint in time gives even more credence to the fact that illegal alien crime is a serious concern. BTW, while the DD killing the nun mat very well be anecdotal, the thread has expanded to cover the overall problem of crimes committed by illegal aliens.
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 06 10:07:03 "Without ideal data and with no other source haw can WND's states be dismissed out of hand? " By the evidence I provide of how untrustworthy it is, of course. "WND began an online petition to have Obama's Hawaiian birth certificate released to the public. The website also unsuccessfully urged Supreme Court justices to hear the Donofrio, Berg and Keyes lawsuits.[21] In May 2009, WND began collecting money to erect billboards asking, "Where's the Birth Certificate?", the first three of which appeared in Louisiana, Pennsylvania, and Los Angeles.[22] Several WND commentators have written columns demanding that the birth certificate be released, including Farah; Corsi; Christian television host Hal Lindsey;[23] Faith and Values Coalition co-chair Janet Porter[24][25] and talk radio host Barbara Simpson.[26] WND has claimed it is confirmed that President Obama has spent at least $1.7 million on lawyers defending against requests for his birth certificate.[27] if youre going to use that site as a source, all I can say is:"
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 06 10:07:48 ...Theres your bookshelf.
Hot Rod Member	Fri Aug 06 10:13:09 MB, what kind of logic is that. Because the publication believes something that you do not agree with then they cannot possibly be right about something else? By that logic I cannot ever use any source and neither can you. No matter the source they are bound to have printed something at one time or another that neither of us would agree with. Not necessarily the same story of course.
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 06 10:14:47 Theres your flower pot. Here's your poodle.
Hot Rod Member	Fri Aug 06 10:15:56 BTW, I have no problem with Obama's citizenship. I do believe he has a more detailed birth certificate that he is not releasing for reasons of his own, probably political.
Hot Rod Member	Fri Aug 06 10:17:26 Now you are making yourself look even more foolish than usual. Here's your sign. Later my friend.
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 06 10:18:52 Heres your pwnge You may now run away.
Signal 2 member	Fri Aug 06 10:19:43 Hot Rod: "Once more, "2. Streamline the deportation process. When they caught VanderVoot in South America they took him to the border within a day or so and expelled him into the handa of those who wanted him. Perhaps the US could not get that streamlined, but they can sure beat 15 months by a long shot." What does Vandersloot have to do with our illegal alien situation? Key word though, he was wanted. Big difference in your DUI example that you wantn to use as the standard for deportation processes for millions of people. The phrase I'm looking for; easier said than done and there are too many variables to be accounted for that you are ignoring. Hot Rod: "Once more, "1. Any illegal guilty of a crime such as DD should be held until they can be deported. I would suggest setting up tent cities close to the border to hold them. They have no rights to our Constitutional protections. Serious crimes they should server their time and then deported." Yes, I see that, you don't have to repeat it. Again, resources, resources, resources. Hot Rod: "WND has provided these stats, "Milton Bradely" is unable to refute the stats, only the source. " You missed the point I was conveying to you obviously. Hot Rod: "S2, this thread is not about cell phones. It is about illegal aliens who get drunk and kill people. It is also about illegal aliens that commit any crime on US soil. It is also about ileegal aliens that are breaking the law by being in this country without permission. Sorry, I'm not as forgiving as others. Give me just one valid reason why anyone who is here illegally has a legal right to be here and I will change my mind. " The cell phone is an example you twit, on how it is a terrible argument to pass laws or use as a pedestal to demonstrate a point on anecdotal variables to use as an extreme method in a situation. It went passed your head and seeing how you are continue to ignore the purpose of the example, I see that I am wasting my time. So I have better things to do.
Cold Rod Member	Fri Aug 06 10:28:11 "Without ideal data and with no other source haw can WND's states be dismissed out of hand? " Because their sources are based on data that isn't a true representation of what they are saying and what you are using their information to convey your point. The AAA study that is used in your source is a fine example on misreprentation. Their [WND] argument is that highway deaths are on the rise due to drivers not having liceneses or valid licenses. This could be ANYBODY, white, black, hispanic, asian, dutch, english, russian, etc. But no they are using that study to blur the perspective and portray that it's only illegal immigrants who are guilty of such infractions. Your source WND also admits that what they are using is anecdotal. But you are using it to as solid truth and indisputable and right there is where you fail.
Cold Rod Member	Fri Aug 06 10:42:54 "The fact that 8.49% of the inmates in jail at that pinpoint in time gives even more credence to the fact that illegal alien crime is a serious concern. " All crimes committed by all people should be a concern. But for some crazy reason you want just illegal immigrant ones to be a serious concern. "BTW, while the DD killing the nun mat very well be anecdotal, the thread has expanded to cover the overall problem of crimes committed by illegal aliens. " No one has ever disputed crimes are being committed by illegal aliens. It's your assertion to use this DUI as an argument as a cause for an overhaul on a system solely based on an example, these types are arguments are weak and actually hurt the foundation on the principles to extract reasonable and solid solutions.
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 06 10:50:07 Lol look at WND's top headlines today: LAW OF THE LAND WorldNetDaily Exclusive New campaign is demanding 'gay' Prop 8 judge be booted 'It's just a gross breach of his judicial responsibilities ... activism on steroids' --WND QUEERLY BELOVED Courts hold uncertain future for Prop 8 Law professor: 'It's very unclear how the 9th Circuit will rule' --KTVX-TV, Salt Lake City County prepared for ceremonies if Prop. 8 stay is lifted 'I met with staff yesterday just to make sure we're geared up' --Ventura County Star Ruling could affect ban Arizona voters approved Judge's opinion in California would not bind the court here, but it might be persuasive' --KSAZ-TV, Phoenix Expert: Same-sex nuptials in Pennsylvania inevitable someday 'Once the Supreme Court decides gay marriage is legal, that's it' --Mechanicsburg Patriot-News, Pennsylvania Mexican court upholds capital's 'gay' marriage law Rejected argument it violated charter's guarantees to protect family --Associated Press PLAY IT AGAIN, SAM How 'gay rights' is being sold to America David Kupelian explains powerful marketing techniques used to mainstream homosexuality
Hot Rod Member	Fri Aug 06 20:04:59 S2 = The cell phone is an example you twit... And Vandervoot was a segue you twit. Once more, "2. Streamline the deportation process. When they caught VanderVoot in South America they took him to the border within a day or so and expelled him into the handa of those who wanted him. Perhaps the US could not get that streamlined, but they can sure beat 15 months by a long shot." Why don't you people ever bother to read a post and *understand* it before you charge into the breach? Here's your sign.
miltonfriedman Member	Fri Aug 06 20:10:33 Free Davey!
Hot Rod Member	Fri Aug 06 20:43:46 There's your tell. Here's your sign.
Just Troll It Member	Fri Aug 06 20:45:15 I hope you get murdered Hot Rod.
miltonfriedman Member	Fri Aug 06 20:46:27 Free Davey!
Cold Rod Member	Fri Aug 06 20:57:07 I've noticed that hot rod hasn't addressed any of the points that were wrong with this sources. Not that I am suprised. But still...
Hot Rod Member	Fri Aug 06 21:13:40 OK, scratch WND as a source. I still say this one incident is one too many. This guy was arrested twice before for drunk driving and released both times by ICE. My point is, as previously pointed out, that illegal aliens that breal a law, I don't care if it is jaywalking, should be held in custody until deported. This guy had nothing to lose by getting behind the wheel drunk again. Why should he think he did, he had already been released twice.
miltonfriedman Member	Sat Aug 07 08:46:47 So you now focused on this one illegal immigrant instead of using this to call for the deportation of all illegal immigrants? Are you reversing your previous position?
Signal 2 member	Sun Aug 08 18:25:46 You provide the resources for such a measure, I'm sure it will happen. Your "solutions" are based from what? Where will the money come from? How would you pitch this measure to such towns. A lot of communties now oppose detention centers to be installed. Like I said before easier said than done. So I ask, what would be the pitch, the incentive, and where will the resources come from since it is tapped now?
Hot Rod Member	Sun Aug 08 18:48:29 S2 - Where will the money come from? How would you pitch this measure to such towns. Let me try once more. It is a federal responsibility to close the border and get rid of the illegal aliens. No need to pitch the towns anything. A series of tent cities along the border would not be as expensive as turning them loose and then trying to keep track of them. If they are illegal aliens put them in a tent city till you can process them. Streamline the processing time until you reduce it from 15 months to one or two weeks. As for the money, the fed is printing billions everyday. A few more billions isn't going to make that much difference.
Signal 2 member	Sun Aug 08 19:02:16 Hot Rod:"It is a federal responsibility to close the border and get rid of the illegal aliens. No need to pitch the towns anything." Yes, that has been established. Move on from that point about federal responsibility. And it would matter, such endeavors will require resources, this camp you are envisioning will cause issues with local communities, and would have to be a secured installation, which again would involve more resouraces. Which again is lacking. Hot Rod: "A series of tent cities along the border would not be as expensive as turning them loose and then trying to keep track of them." f they are illegal aliens put them in a tent city till you can process them. Streamline the processing time until you reduce it from 15 months to one or two weeks. You lack insight and this is false. As previously mention in my statement as to why this isn't such a simple task. Considering individual rights being infringed upon in such settings with current and past president's initiatives that had been passed or modified. Hot Rod: "s for the money, the fed is printing billions everyday. A few more billions isn't going to make that much difference. " Budget. And the law enforcement community on all levels are insuffienct.
Kilo Member	Sun Aug 08 19:02:31 You know HotRod, deporting this illegal won't stop deaths from DUIs
Firestorm Phoenix Member	Sun Aug 08 19:03:23 Time to end this farce.
Firestorm Phoenix Member	Sun Aug 08 19:03:34 END OF LINE
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