Utopia Talk / Politics / Debating with JB

hoER Member	Fri Aug 28 09:47:51 JB - "Noone here DARES TO CHALLENGE ME! I bring UNCHALLENGABLE PROOF and all the Liberals FLEE!" hoER - "Ok, I challenge you on your statement that: "To date, in the past 50 years, no one has been shot and killed with an automatic weapon owned by a private citizen." " JB - "What the hell are you talking about? What do you want me to prove?" I'm talking about: "hoER - "Ok, I challenge you on your statement that: "To date, in the past 50 years, no one has been shot and killed with an automatic weapon owned by a private citizen." " JB - "What link do you want moron?" hoER - "Ok, I challenge you on your statement that: "To date, in the past 50 years, no one has been shot and killed with an automatic weapon owned by a private citizen." " JB - "Ah, o.k., I see. Very well then. Thank you for the explanation. However, before I provide you with that link of what did not happen, I want you to provide me with a link showing that for the past 50 years no one has been shot and killed with a toilet plunger gun. Show me that statistic- of that event that never occurred- and then I will show my statistic of the event I claim never occurred." PROOF JB is full of shit when challenged.
Hot Rod Member	Fri Aug 28 09:53:06 Like I said, "Anyone with half a brain would have understood what he said."
hoER Member	Fri Aug 28 09:57:05 I guess thats why you understood it.
Hot Rod Member	Fri Aug 28 09:57:54 I guess that is why you didn't. :)
Hood Member	Fri Aug 28 09:58:20 I don't think HR got your meaning hoER.
hoER Member	Fri Aug 28 09:59:20 Indeed. Think about how you just selfpwnd youtself again moron and then fuck off. Your posts are worthless.
hoER Member	Fri Aug 28 09:59:40 @HR. Indeed Hood, lol...
hoER Member	Fri Aug 28 10:01:14 The Hijacker's spam is ignored.
Hot Rod Member	Fri Aug 28 10:06:12 Hood, at least I have half a brain. He has far less than that. :) That was sooooooo obvious.
The Bear Jew Member	Fri Aug 28 10:10:22 Humor, either you have it, or you don't.
hoER Member	Fri Aug 28 10:13:46 I'm also still waiting for the challenge I made to JB yesterday, when he claimed that "personal experience can never be used in any intellectual discipline" (this while trying to convince me he knew my society better than me through brief personal experience of it...dumdumdum)? For someone whos been bragging so much that youre CHALLENGING anyone to refute you and NOOONE DARES and everyone FLEES in the face of your PROOF, you sure dont have much of any worth to come up with when someone refutes you...
Jeddediah Wilkins Member	Fri Aug 28 10:19:35 I think hoER is handicapped. And if so, then I apologize for being so hard on her. hoER, take your time, have a glass of juice, and then try to read this over: "..however, before I provide you with that link of what did not happen, I want you to provide me with a link showing that for the past 50 years no one has been shot and killed with a toilet plunger gun. Show me that statistic- of that event that never occurred- and then I will show my statistic of the event I claim never occurred." I will also give you a hint so you can understand this better: Statistics are not usually compiled about things that did not happen. Thus, if there are no statistics about people getting eaten by dinosaurs, it is probably because no one has ever been eaten by a dinosaur. The reason there are no recorded instances of people being shot to death by legally registered law abiding citizens using fully automatic weapons is because it has never happened. In all cases, shooting deaths involving automatic weapons have been with illegally obtained or stolen/noncompliant weapons/owners. There is a substantial difference between the two; namely that any new gun legislation will target the former and not the latter.
Jeddediah Wilkins Member	Fri Aug 28 10:22:32 The only way to prove this statement false would be FOR YOU to find an instance where a law abiding citizen used a legally registered, properly compliant fully automatic firearm, and used it to murder someone. And even if you did, I would probably ask you to also include information on whether the shooting occurred in legally viable self-defense situation, or whether the guy flipped out and whacked a bunch of people, as I believe that speaks to the issue at hand.
Nekran Member	Fri Aug 28 10:23:37 You're wanting us to find a case of a law-abiding citizen murdering someone? I found one of an ex-cop, Iraq veteran killing a deputy with an assault rifle though. It's posted in the other thread.
Jeddediah Wilkins Member	Fri Aug 28 10:24:51 all assault rifles are NOT automatic. Was the ex-cop using a fully automatic weapon?
hoER Member	Fri Aug 28 10:29:36 "however, before I provide you with that link of what did not happen, I want you to provide me with a link showing that for the past 50 years no one has been shot and killed with a toilet plunger gun. Show me that statistic- of that event that never occurred- and then I will show my statistic of the event I claim never occurred." Its sad you stoop so low in debate JB. because everyone here recognizes the error in your retort. Everyone here recognizes that I have made no claims of statistical knowledge whatsoever about toilet plunger guns. Everyone here also realizes you HAVE made a claim to statistical knowledge about "To date, in the past 50 years, no one has been shot and killed with an automatic weapon owned by a private citizen." Everyone here is smarter than you think they are JB and realize very easily the point of difference here. So, since you present statistical knowledge as your argument, we are in our traditional debatical rights to ask where you got this knowledge from. Its sad that you go so low one actually has to explain the normal and accepted rules of debate because you evade the CHALLENGE that NOONE DARES TO MAKE so feverishly...
Jeddediah Wilkins Member	Fri Aug 28 10:32:17 One cannot prove a negative in statistics. Isn't that right? The absence of any recorded instances of an event is equivalent to statistical proof that it never happened. Isn't that right?
Nekran Member	Fri Aug 28 10:32:54 Ow sorry no... orw ell it's not mentioned at all. But I was on the assault rifle deal from the other thread. Not on full automatic... that's my screw up :)
Ayn Rand Member	Fri Aug 28 10:35:03 Welcome to the Utopia Forums! The current time is Fri Aug 28 10:34:40 2009 , You have 0 new messages. Chat on the IRC server here Utopia Talk / Politics / Gun Rights 101 Jeddediah Wilkins Member Thu Aug 27 17:27:29 My favorite is No. 11 FIREARMS REFRESHER COURSE 1. "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jeffer son 2. Those who trade liberty for security have neither. ~John Adams 3. Free men do not ask permission to bear arms. 4. An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject. 5. Only a government that is afraid of its citizens tries to control them. 6. Gun control is not about guns; it's about control. 7. You only have the rights you are willing to fight for. 8. Know guns, know peace, know safety. No guns, no peace, no safety. 9. You don't shoot to kill; you shoot to stay alive. 10. Assault is a behavior, not a device. 11. 64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday. 12. The United States Constitution (c) 1791. All Rights Reserved. 13. The Second Amendment is in place in case the politicians ignore the others. 14. What part of 'shall not be infringed' do you NOT understand? 15. Guns have only two enemies; rust and politicians. 16. When you remove the people's right to bear arms, you create slaves. 17. The American Revolution would never have happened with gun control. NeverWoods Member Thu Aug 27 17:32:41 2/10 Pure stupidity. Hood Member Thu Aug 27 17:33:04 every time I see "bear arms" I think of family guy and chuckle. NeverWoods Member Thu Aug 27 17:35:57 http://www...e/1_the_right_to_bear_arms.jpg Hot Rod Member Thu Aug 27 17:36:26 Why does Obama want a civilian army as well funded as The American Military? LiberalFlamerQueer New Member Thu Aug 27 17:42:12 2/10 Pure stupidity. Nancy Boy New Member Thu Aug 27 17:43:00 LOL, yeah, really! These silly Americans and their notions of "independence". What a riot! NeverWoods Member Thu Aug 27 17:46:42 ^JB. Hood Member Thu Aug 27 17:47:32 http://sch...09/08/family-guy-bear-arms.jpg that one. Hot Rod Member Thu Aug 27 17:49:54 And you wonder why fine upstanding Americans get upset at Town Hall Meetings when that is the kinds of responses they are getting from the liberals. NeverWoods Member Thu Aug 27 18:06:03 And you wonder how you turned out to be stupid, well let me tell you it was your mothers stupid genes that based on to you. yankeessuck123 Member Thu Aug 27 18:18:46 The OP fails pretty hard. Hot Rod Member Thu Aug 27 18:34:17 There are 17 statements in the OP. Can you debunk any of them with a rational argument or is cartoons and insulting someones deceased mother all you got? Just curious? NeverWoods Member Thu Aug 27 18:39:10 "Can you debunk any of them" I don't need waste my breath on such stupidity, not everyone is paranoid of their own government. You don't see we in the rest of the sane Europe being turned into slaves for the government do you? Rugian Member Thu Aug 27 18:42:33 "You don't see we in the rest of the sane Europe being turned into slaves for the government do you?" How's that new EU telecom spy bill coming along, NW? Not that having guns really helps against those who infringe on civil liberties. Bush gleefully buttraped the legal rights of both citizens and non-citizens and got away with it scot-free. NeverWoods Member Thu Aug 27 18:47:14 "How's that new EU telecom spy bill coming along, NW?" Just fine, patriotic act and warrants less phone tapping working out well for you guys? Hot Rod Member Thu Aug 27 18:51:27 "I don't need waste my breath on such stupidity, not everyone is paranoid of their own government." TRANSLATION No, they are axioms that cannot be debunked. pillz Member Thu Aug 27 18:54:53 http://www...hread=22416&time=1251417087085 NeverWoods Member Thu Aug 27 18:56:55 You are not good at translating HR. So let me make this as simple as it can get. You are an moron. NeverWoods Member Thu Aug 27 18:59:10 I don't know how your mom's retarded genes work but i can't disprove negatives. The burden of proof rests with you, not i for made no such claims. Hot Rod Member Thu Aug 27 19:00:26 Personally, I like #15. ehcks Member Thu Aug 27 19:11:13 I like how the "well regulated Militia" part is completely ignored. Followed by "The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) defines the phrase To bear arms as "to serve as a soldier, do military service, fight."" Rugian Member Thu Aug 27 19:13:29 Guns are really fun to take to the range though, regardless of constitutionality. ehcks Member Thu Aug 27 19:20:43 Oh yeah, that part's great. I think it's been to long since I've been to one, actually.. April or May '06? Hot Rod Member Thu Aug 27 19:22:16 Another insult against my dead mother. Is that the only way you can win an argument, by making yourself so repulsive people just leave? Can't expect civilized behavior from you I guess. Rugian Member Thu Aug 27 19:23:40 "Just fine, patriotic act and warrants less phone tapping working out well for you guys?" See paragraph 2 of my post responding to you. NeverWoods Member Thu Aug 27 19:34:14 nod. Jeddediah Wilkins Member Thu Aug 27 19:37:27 What is funny is that the Liberal fags that hate gun rights are going to be the same quivering snot-rags that are going to be seeking help from a legal gun owner if and when they ever find themselves in the midst of civil unrest / natural disaster, etc. ehcks Member Thu Aug 27 20:12:12 I don't hate gun rights. I say that the constitution doesn't give the people the right to just own their own guns. But we already do, so blah. Can't just remove them. My plan is more about punishing people who use guns incorrectly. Hot Rod Member Thu Aug 27 20:16:31 ehcks - I don't hate gun rights. I say that the constitution doesn't give the people the right to just own their own guns. The United States Supreme Court disagrees with you. They ruled a few months ag that that is exactly what it means when they struck down Washington D.C.'s gun law. ehcks Member Thu Aug 27 20:25:19 I can still have an opinion. That's all it is. Either way, it doesn't change my idea that people who commit a crime by incorrectly using a gun should receive far greater punishment than currently. Jeddediah Wilkins Member Thu Aug 27 20:26:43 What part of this don't you understand: "the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Hot Rod Member Thu Aug 27 20:32:49 Sorry, sounded like a claim. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, as long as you do not take my gun rights away from me. Fed Bureau Of Utopia Member Thu Aug 27 20:39:27 Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined â??â??Patrick Henry The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun. â??â?? Patrick Henry Jeddediah Wilkins Member Thu Aug 27 20:50:39 HOLY FUCK! Fed Bureau of Utopia has a brain! I take back every nasty thing I said about you, FBU! Fed Bureau Of Utopia Member Thu Aug 27 20:59:25 Well gee I am in the business of guns. I just hold the view that some should not have guns because they are completely nuts and do not have the maturity and mental capacity to wield such powerful devices. This doesn't imply that I want 2nd amendment rights to be infringed upon. It is that I reserve the opinion that there are people who misunderstand the concept of the 2nd amendment. Hood Member Thu Aug 27 21:00:39 it seems my family guy remarks were taken the wrong way. I'm not for or against guns in the hands of americans. I *do* believe people who own automatic weapons and claim they use them for hunting are retarded. you don't need an auto to hunt. don't lie to yourself, you want it because it's cool and good for defending yourself. and that part I'm still undecided. I just think it's funny to think of bear arms being mounted on a wall when talking about guns. yankeessuck123 Member Thu Aug 27 22:20:40 A friend of mine in Texas was saying that down there you can get grenade launchers at gun shows. Fucking grenade launches. No private citizen needs a grenade launcher, nor should be allowed one. There has to be a line somewhere, and grenade launchers are clearly well over it. Jeddediah Wilkins Member Thu Aug 27 22:26:18 nonsense. Can't buy a 'nade launcher. Hot Rod Member Thu Aug 27 23:09:18 "I *do* believe people who own automatic weapons..." It is illegal to own an automatic weapon in The United States. Nekran Member Thu Aug 27 23:27:02 Is it? Hot Rod Member Thu Aug 27 23:46:18 Yes, unless you have a special collectors or dealers license and those are few and far between. Now, you can own a Machine Gun, I know one guy that owns a .50 Ca. Machine Gun that he has mounted on a jeep. But, they must be fixed so they will not fire automatic and some must not fire at all. I thing you can buy a Thompson Sub-Machine Gun that will fire semi but not full auto. Of course the Hollywood Studios own some that will fire automatic, but I am not sure if they will fire live ammo or not. That is my understanding of the laws anyway. Correct me if I am wrong. kargen Member Thu Aug 27 23:48:34 "A friend of mine in Texas was saying that down there you can get grenade launchers at gun shows." Your friend isn't exactly right. Collectors can buy rifles that come with grenade launchers attached. You must have a special permit though to be a collector, and they do check. Also you can't legally get the ammo for the grenade launcher and would lose your ability to collect guns if you were caught ever firing it. The rifles with grenade launcher attachments are sold for display purposes only, and that is legal in most states. Forwyn Member Thu Aug 27 23:53:14 To add to HR's last post, it is possible to acquire a license for owning automatic weapons(or high capacity weapons, semi-auto/auto shotguns, etc), but it takes months/years, lots of cash, and extensive backtground checks. Anyways, some of those points are a little over the top, but the general premise is correct. Jeddediah Wilkins Member Fri Aug 28 06:01:08 You can buy grenade launchers and automatic weapons. You just can't walk up and buy it at a gun show. They require licensing and permits, as well they should. To date, in the past 50 years, no one has been shot and killed with an automatic weapon owned by a private citizen. And in the history of the country, not one person has been hit or killed with a grenade launcher. hoER Member Fri Aug 28 06:03:50 "To date, in the past 50 years, no one has been shot and killed with an automatic weapon owned by a private citizen." Link? NeverWoods Member Fri Aug 28 06:13:19 http://www...on/2007-09-14-1906887147_x.htm Assault-weapon attacks on rise in Miami In this undated photo provided by the Miami-Dade Police Department, Shawn Sherwin Labeet is shown. Authorities are sweeping across South Florida in a manhunt for Labeet is suspected to be the gunman, armed with a high-powered weapon, that killed a Miami-Dade County, Fla., police officer and injured three others Thursday, Sept. 13, 2007, and then fled in a car with a woman and two children, officials said. (AP Photo/Miami-Dade Police Department) By Matt Sedensky, Associated Press Writer MIAMI â?? The spray of bullets that killed a police officer and hurt three others this week came from something increasingly common on this city's streets: a high-powered assault weapon, fast becoming the gun of choice for gang members and violent criminals. And when the guns, once found solely in the hands of soldiers, are aimed at officers on patrol, there's little authorities can do to escape. "It's almost like we have water pistols going up against these high-powered rifles," said John Rivera, president of the Dade County Police Benevolent Association. "Our weaponry and our bulletproof vests don't match up to any of those types of weapons." Federal officials don't compile statistics on the number of crimes involving assault weapons like the AK-47, and municipalities' numbers across the country are patchwork. But in Miami, at least, there are signs it is becoming a major problem. In 2005, the Miami-Dade Police Department reported two homicides involving an assault rifle; last year there were 10. That agency covers numerous unincorporated areas in the nation's eighth-largest county, but not its biggest cities, which have their own police forces. FIND MORE STORIES IN: Cuba | Airlines | Tobacco | Assistant U.S | Explosives | Bureau of Alcohol | Firearms | Cmdr | St. Croix | National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund | Miami-Dade Police Department | Bello | Shawn Labeet The Miami Police Department said 15 of its 79 homicides last year involved assault weapons, up from the year before. This year, already 12 of the 60 homicides have involved the high-power guns. "We've noticed an increase in the amount of assault weapons that we've seen on the street, and certainly the amount that have been used in murders and other shootings," said Detective Delrish Moss. "And it seems to be increasing every year." Police do not yet know where the 25-year-old suspect in Thursday's shooting of the Miami-Dade officers got his weapon. Shawn Sherwin Labeet was found hours later and 30 miles from the crime scene. Police said they shot and killed him after he refused to drop his firearm. On Friday, officers arrested four people accused of aiding Labeet. Alba Bello, 47; her son, Alain Gonzalez, 24; and Bello's boyfriend, Lazaro Guardiola, 35, were charged with accessory after the fact on suspicion of harboring the killer. Labeet's girlfriend, Renee Dangelo, 26, was charged with giving police false information. Later Friday, Labeet's brother, Shane Labeet, 32, was charged with aiding his brother's flight. Also arrested was Shawn Labeet's nephew Jaleel Torres, 22, who was charged with resisting an officer with violence as investigators tried to question him about his uncle's whereabouts. Labeet is also the stepbrother of the U.S. Virgin Islands' most wanted criminal, Ishmael Ali LaBeet, said Miami-Dade police Cmdr. Linda O'Brien. Three decades ago, Ishmael Ali LaBeet and four accomplices opened fire during a robbery on St. Croix, killing eight people. They were caught and convicted of murder, but LaBeet escaped and hijacked an American Airlines jet to Cuba in 1985. The rising number of deaths by assault weapons reflects growing availability of the weapons and their elevation to a status symbol among gang members, said Carlos Baixauli, an agent with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. "In the early '80s to '90s, it was more common to have a handgun in your waistband and the bigger the caliber, the more powerful you were," Baixauli said. "Now it's escalated to the assault weapons." Another issue potentially at play is the 2004 expiration of the federal assault weapons ban, 10 years after its passage. The legislation outlawed 19 types of guns, including the semiautomatic AK-47. The guns are readily available on streets, Baixauli said, or can be ordered by mail for under $200. Shootings involving assault weapons were among the reasons U.S. Attorney R. Alexander Acosta set up an anti-gang task force of federal, state and local law enforcement officials this year. He assigned 15 federal prosecutors, led by Assistant U.S. Attorney Ben Greenberg, to the effort. "These bullets are very powerful: they go through walls, they go through cars, and if you just spray the general vicinity you're going to get innocent bystanders," Acosta said. "A shooting that might have been an injury previously is now a death." Kevin Morison of the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund said his organization is considering tracking when assault weapons are involved in police shootings. Officer shootings had been on a downturn until this year. More U.S. police officers were killed while on duty in the first six months of 2007 -- 101 -- than during any such period since 1978, according to the organization. To date, there have been 132 officer fatalities this year, compared with 97 at the same time last year. Rivera pleaded for leaders to allow police to carry higher-power weapons -- though not necessarily as strong as some already on the street -- and provide stronger protective vests. "Give us a fighting chance," he said. Police officials said they were bogged down with the aftermath of the shootings and unable to respond to Rivera's comments. They did say they were trying to cope with the loss of Officer Jose Somohano. The Miami-Dade department was helping to plan the funeral, and Officer Jody Wright was recovering from a gunshot wound to the right leg, O'Brien said. The other two officers were treated and released. "Anytime a fellow officer has been killed, it destroys us," O'Brien said. "It's almost got no words to it. Your blood just runs cold." Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. Jeddediah Wilkins Member Fri Aug 28 06:15:04 *by a legally registered, licensed owner* NeverWoods Member Fri Aug 28 06:17:43 What you said was "To date, in the past 50 years, no one has been shot and killed with an automatic weapon owned by a private citizen." Why are you changing statements? hoER Member Fri Aug 28 06:23:00 Cos his horseshit is getting challenged. "by a legally registered, licensed owner" Link? Hot Rod Member Fri Aug 28 06:23:42 NeverWoods, so? hoER Member Fri Aug 28 06:24:53 In fact, how can you POSSIBLY know that statistic in the face of: "Federal officials don't compile statistics on the number of crimes involving assault weapons like the AK-47"? NeverWoods Member Fri Aug 28 06:28:29 "NeverWoods, so?" It's stupid and dishonest, then again you belong in that club so carry on. Hot Rod Member Fri Aug 28 06:30:37 NeverWoods, your article is about Assault Weapons, *NOT* fully automatic weapons. Big Difference. hoER Member Fri Aug 28 06:32:14 So we're still waiting for a link that "To date, in the past 50 years, no one has been shot and killed with an automatic weapon owned by a private citizen." So...Link? NeverWoods Member Fri Aug 28 06:41:36 "NeverWoods, your article is about Assault Weapons, *NOT* fully automatic weapons." They belong in the same category. Assault Weapons just mean they are the bigger guns, not that they are not fully automatic. Hot Rod Member Fri Aug 28 06:47:37 We were talking about fully automatic weapons and machine guns. Not semi-automatic weapons. Do you know the difference? Jeddediah Wilkins Member Fri Aug 28 07:09:21 Neverwoods is clearly a gun grabber with no respect for traditional American values, or the US Constitution- a document I've sworn to uphold and defend. I have no interest in entertaining this topic. At our core we are fundamentally different. I'm a patriot and I love my country, and a more traditional way of life. I love my constitutionally guaranteed right to keep fire arms, in the event that a worst-case scenario occurs. NeverWoods does not share those things in common with me. Nimatzo Member Fri Aug 28 07:22:15 Awww his horse shit proved to be horse shit so now it is about a piece of paper written by slave owners 300 years ago. Boohoo =,( Jeddediah Wilkins Member Fri Aug 28 07:27:30 Nimatzo, to you, the US Constitution is a piece of paper. To me, and 100 million+ other Americans, it is a national treasure, and an amazing document. If it were followed to the letter by today's leadership, 90% of America's problems would not exist. We probably would not have 2 wars going on. We probably would have no national debt. We probably would not be meddling in other countries' affairs. We probably would have a stronger fabric in our society, with less political correctness. But I digress. In any case, it isn't that I "now, suddenly make it about a piece of paper". It has ALWAYS been about that piece of paper. Fed Bureau Of Utopia Member Fri Aug 28 07:27:39 Don't have much time but I'll address a few points for those who are fuzzy on the topic about assault weapons. What JB said is correct. Yes, I know this bothers you. Assault and [Fully] Automatic does not mean the same thing. Assault weapons is a description of the weapon and not correct description for [fully] automatic. They are semi-automatic thus not fitting the definition of [fully] automatic. As for the other misconceptions, anyone that wants to buy such a weapon must get a TAX STAMP registered to the ATF. That means they know you have these types of weapons versus you just having a handgun permit and such unless they (law enforcement) run a check on you for a particular reason. And the last thing to address before I run off, is that if a person was to buy a semi-automatic rifle for an example an AR-15, there is no wait. You can simply buy it and go on about your day. Jeddediah Wilkins Member Fri Aug 28 07:33:59 Ah, now I see why you thought the other thread was redundant. Nimatzo Member Fri Aug 28 07:45:04 No no no, this was about a claim you made, a specific claim which turned out to be shit, when it made that turn you resorted to this being about the constitution. Personally I do not think guns should be illegal to own, but that is neither here nor there. The second amendment can be interpreted in many ways and it is probably the shittiest argument FOR gun ownership, because it is outdated and subject to change. Jeddediah Wilkins Member Fri Aug 28 07:45:31 Which claim did I make that turned out to be shit? Hot Rod Member Fri Aug 28 07:48:10 Nimatzo, "The United States Supreme Court disagrees with you." Jeddediah Wilkins Member Fri Aug 28 07:50:36 Nimatzo, are you referring to this: "*by a legally registered, licensed owner* " Well no SHIT! Obviously, that is who we are talking about! Legally registered, law abiding citizens are the subject of Gun control legislation, are they not? Please do not say that criminals are being targeted by some new law on the books. Do you believe criminals are going to turn in their weapons, in the event of a new ban? Because if you do, I will lose all respect for you. Nimatzo Member Fri Aug 28 07:59:45 That is not what you originally said was it? That is what you said after it was apparent that you were wrong. Jeddediah Wilkins Member Fri Aug 28 08:12:16 No, it means I have 4 windows open, and I'm working on other shit. Sometimes one fails to type out a full and complete thought. In this particular instance, on re-reading what I wrote, I think it is SO obvious that I shouldn't have had to type it all out, but that's just me. The Bear Jew Member Fri Aug 28 08:16:15 "No, it means I have 4 windows open, and I'm working on other shit. Sometimes one fails to type out a full and complete thought. In this particular instance, on re-reading what I wrote, I think it is SO obvious that I shouldn't have had to type it all out, but that's just me. " LOL!!! Best excuses I've heard in a long time! Hot Rod Member Fri Aug 28 08:21:00 It was extremely obvious that Jed meant licensed automatic gun owners, there was no need for him to post a clarification. Anyone with half a brain would have understood what he said. Nimatzo Member Fri Aug 28 08:26:43 It is also fairly obvious that in a country with a functioning government accessibility to legal weapons will also increase the accessibility to illegal weapons. As in, if there are no weapon stores to rob or weapon owners homes to raid then quite simply there will be less illegal weapons in circulation. This is all pointless, because as I see it Americas problem does not lie with the weapons you own, but the culture you have and the fear you breed. The Bear Jew Member Fri Aug 28 08:28:03 Oh don't even start on that, so many other occasions have been said about you, but yet you still played the "how was I supposed to know" card. Hell, go look at the cheney lied thread. That is a good example there where you had a fucking fit about knowing every 'esoteric detail'. What a hypocrite. LOL! Classic, classic, classic. The Bear Jew Member Fri Aug 28 08:31:20 Here ya go HR, prime example, http://www...hread=22407&time=1251407149921 Hot Rod Member Fri Aug 28 08:32:37 LOL, I see. So I am supposed to *KNOW*. But you don't have to know. It was perfectly clear to me. :) How hypocritical can you get. Go change your name again, you just lost all credibility under that phony name. The Bear Jew Member Fri Aug 28 08:35:45 You idiot, it's the same thing that you just said. You are pointing out that "anyone with a brain would understand" what JB was saying. It is the same god damn situation in recent threads involving you. Talking about credibility? You've lost that LONG time ago. The Bear Jew Member Fri Aug 28 08:36:44 You still haven't answered my question in the that thread either. Hot Rod Member Fri Aug 28 08:37:58 LOL, goofus. I am pointing out *YOUR* hypocrisy. :) The Bear Jew Member Fri Aug 28 08:38:49 There is none. Hot Rod Member Fri Aug 28 08:40:11 "LOL!!! Best excuses I've heard in a long time!" Go change your name again. The Bear Jew Member Fri Aug 28 08:41:15 Yes, that is a sentence of what I said. Good job. The Bear Jew Member Fri Aug 28 08:42:42 This is too sad. When are you ever going to stop with your contridictions and hypocracy? When is it going to stop? hoER Member Fri Aug 28 09:10:29 So we're still waiting for a link that "To date, in the past 50 years, no one has been shot and killed with an automatic weapon owned by a private citizen." So...Link? This is the second time in two days I challenge one of your claims and you disappear...For someone one brags a whole lot about wanting to be challenged and noone dares to, you seem to go very quiet every time I cahallenege one of your dumbass comments, JB? Hot Rod Member Fri Aug 28 09:13:57 Like I said, "Anyone with half a brain would have understood what he said." Jeddediah Wilkins Member Fri Aug 28 09:16:52 hoER why are you editing out the CONTEXT of what I said? Is this the only way Liberals can score? By editing comments out of the context of the conversation, and then twisting the meaning? The Bear Jew Member Fri Aug 28 09:22:09 Too good, way to good. The Bear Jew Member Fri Aug 28 09:25:28 "No, it means I have 4 windows open, and I'm working on other shit. Sometimes one fails to type out a full and complete thought. In this particular instance, on re-reading what I wrote, I think it is SO obvious that I shouldn't have had to type it all out, but that's just me. " LOL! I love it. Jeddediah Wilkins Member Fri Aug 28 09:30:19 Glad you like it. The Bear Jew Member Fri Aug 28 09:31:46 I have to remember it for whenever I need to backtrack. hoER Member Fri Aug 28 09:35:29 So...still no link, eh? JB == challenged and found lacking Jeddediah Wilkins Member Fri Aug 28 09:36:07 What the hell are you talking about? What do you want me to prove? hoER Member Fri Aug 28 09:36:15 Second statement by you in 2 days Ive challenged and you jst have...nothing... Jeddediah Wilkins Member Fri Aug 28 09:36:58 What link do you want moron? The Bear Jew Member Fri Aug 28 09:37:09 Well you did make the claim that no automatic weapon own by private citizens have killed anyone in the past 50 years. hoER Member Fri Aug 28 09:37:26 How dumb are you? Can you not read at all? "So we're still waiting for a link that "To date, in the past 50 years, no one has been shot and killed with an automatic weapon owned by a private citizen." So...Link? This is the second time in two days I challenge one of your claims and you disappear...For someone one brags a whole lot about wanting to be challenged and noone dares to, you seem to go very quiet every time I cahallenege one of your dumbass comments, JB? " Hot Rod Member Fri Aug 28 09:38:24 Like I said, "Anyone with half a brain would have understood what he said." hoER Member Fri Aug 28 09:38:34 And Im still waiting for you to back up your statement last night that no personal knowledge can ever be used in any intellectual discipline. You ran away from that too... So...links? The Bear Jew Member Fri Aug 28 09:39:48 "I am not going to research...to learn every esoteric detail about the subject, before posting" -Hot Rod Jeddediah Wilkins Member Fri Aug 28 09:40:24 Ah, o.k., I see. Very well then. Thank you for the explanation. However, before I provide you with that link of what did not happen, I want you to provide me with a link showing that for the past 50 years no one has been shot and killed with a toilet plunger gun. Show me that statistic- of that event that never occurred- and then I will show my statistic of the event I claim never occurred. The Bear Jew Member Fri Aug 28 09:41:57 So you concede. Jeddediah Wilkins Member Fri Aug 28 09:42:32 So you concede. show deleted posts Bookmark and Share TTTTTTTTTtttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
Ayn Rand Member	Fri Aug 28 10:35:30 ttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
Jeddediah Wilkins Member	Fri Aug 28 10:36:13 My point is gun grabbers point to these crazy machine guns in the streets nonsense, but it (almost) never happens. The few isolated instances where it did happen, it involved hardened criminals either stealing their automatic weapons from police, or DEA, or bringing them in from South of the border. These make up the TINIEST sliver of the overall gun-crime pie.
Hot Rod Member	Fri Aug 28 10:45:14 hoER, how do you figure Jed screwed up this thread. Isn't Ayn Rand one of *YOUR* multis?
Jeddediah Wilkins Member	Fri Aug 28 10:49:49 Why would I screw up my own thread?
Ayn Rand Member	Fri Aug 28 10:50:31 I'm actually Sam Adams
Ehcks Member	Fri Aug 28 10:51:59 By the way, as I said before, to "bear arms" did not mean to own guns. It meant to serve as a soldier and do military service.
Nekran Member	Fri Aug 28 10:54:10 Wouldn't that have been in conflict with the whole no gays thing all the time? And what about women? Or didn't the constitution apply to women at the time?
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hoER Member	Fri Aug 28 12:04:41 "Jeddediah Wilkins Member Fri Aug 28 10:32:17 One cannot prove a negative in statistics. Isn't that right?" How sad you continue...when you know that we all know this is a blatant rhetorical fallacy...It makes it so obvious to all that you have no reply and are juts ducking... You claim to have knowledge that "To date, in the past 50 years, no one has been shot and killed with an automatic weapon owned by a private citizen." Validate your claim of this statistical knowledge.
Forwyn Member	Fri Aug 28 12:05:48 Are you seriously making a thread dedicated to JW, dude? Based on that obviously false comment? fail.
Hood Member	Fri Aug 28 12:15:59 "The reason there are no recorded instances of people being shot to death by legally registered law abiding citizens using fully automatic weapons is because it has never happened." yeah, because they aren't law abiding citizens once they pull a weapon on someone.
Randal Graves Member	Fri Aug 28 12:24:42 "To date, in the past 50 years, no one has been shot and killed with an automatic weapon owned by a private citizen." JB, it is time for you to leave, or shut up and never speak again. Pa. Gunman 'Hell-bent' on Killings, Had 4 Guns Police say he used two 9-millimeter automatic pistols and fired 36 shots inside the class of around 30 women. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=8255530&page=1 I believe this covers 'automatic weapons'. Please kindly, shut the fuck up and never spew your bullshit again. And if you decide to do so, I will be here to shut you up again.
Jeddediah Wilkins Member	Fri Aug 28 12:39:05 Randal Graves, many here can tell you that if you don't have your shit tight, that I will bury you. And so I'm going to do that right now: "Three of the four guns found with Sodini were traced back to him, and authorities are in the process of tracing the fourth, Moffatt said. They were two 9 mm semi-automatics, a .45-caliber revolver and a .38 in his pocket." Now because this is not a daycare, I am not going to educate you on the difference between - SEMI-automatic and - AUTOMATIC However, you may now leave the thread in shame.
Jeddediah Wilkins Member	Fri Aug 28 12:39:32 http://www...lvania.gym.shooting/index.html
HOLY FUCK New Member	Fri Aug 28 12:40:40 PWNT!
Randal Graves Member	Fri Aug 28 12:51:39 I am quite aware of the differences. The thing is you have one report. And I have another. So we are at a crossroads. Which report is correct? They are both conflicting. Hardly 'PWNT' has your little multi on your bandwagon.
Randal Graves Member	Fri Aug 28 12:52:27 as your little multi jumping on your bandwagaon is saying.
Jeddediah Wilkins Member	Fri Aug 28 12:55:16 When you are done looking up the type of weapon used, you will find that your report was typical irresponsible sensationalistic (or amateurish) journalism, while the report from CNN is accurate. You posted a link, then I posted a link. Now it is your turn again. But I suggest you take your own advice, STFU, and do not return to this thread.
HOLY FUCK Member	Fri Aug 28 12:57:25 DAYUM! PWNT!
Randal Graves Member	Fri Aug 28 12:58:23 You are the one that still hasn't provided anything that you claimed. So as it appears we are back to square one. Who is to say that the report from CNN is more accurate than the one I provided? Come on, where is that undeniable statistics you have regarding this: "To date, in the past 50 years, no one has been shot and killed with an automatic weapon owned by a private citizen."?
Jeddediah Wilkins Member	Fri Aug 28 13:00:12 circular argument see above
HOLY FUCK Member	Fri Aug 28 13:02:01 I think you lost, RG. :(
hoER Member	Fri Aug 28 13:04:57 I'm still waiting for the mighty unchallenged challenger to stop fleeing from this challenge: "To date, in the past 50 years, no one has been shot and killed with an automatic weapon owned by a private citizen." " Validate this claim. I'm still waiting for the mighty unchallenged challenger to stop fleeing from this challenge: "personal experience can never be used in any intellectual discipline" Validate this claim.
Randal Graves Member	Fri Aug 28 13:05:15 Not really, since we have conflicting reports.
hoER Member	Fri Aug 28 13:06:01 You really are not much of a challenger despite all the big man talk when it comes down to it, are you kid...
Jeddediah Wilkins Member	Fri Aug 28 13:06:34 "personal experience can never be used in any intellectual discipline" Validate this claim. Very well. I will. But the other issues are dead. It is only Randal Graves' pride that prevents him from admitting it. And I can understand that because of his earlier post filled with boasting. The let down is that much greater.
hoER Member	Fri Aug 28 13:08:22 "ut the other issues are dead." Nope. They remain undefended, unsubstantiated and unchallenged by you, the great unnsubstantiated challenger.
Jeddediah Wilkins Member	Fri Aug 28 13:09:10 Unfortunately it will have to wait as I have an appointment with a beautiful big-tit blonde. And as much of a stud as I am, that doesn't happen every day.
hoER Member	Fri Aug 28 13:10:10 I have nothing to do with his debate, I havent even read his posts. Once again, you duck and dive when you get challenged, as you have neeb for several threads now...you slimy, flip flopping, for ever ducking weasel.
Randal Graves Member	Fri Aug 28 13:11:14 JB, we have two reports. One reporting one thing and the other another. We are back to square one. You even admitted it's a circular argument. Meaning it's still going either way. Thank you for trying to build yourself up along with your multi.
hoER Member	Fri Aug 28 13:11:53 You're fleeing again when you get challenged, you moral weakling. Im never going to let you forget how I shoved your internet tough guy horseshit lies and boasts down your throat like this...
Amadeus Member	Fri Aug 28 14:07:10 http://www....com/news/20283352/detail.html Sodini walked in with the guns -- two 9 mm semiautomatics and a .45-caliber revolver -- hidden in his gym bag shortly before 8 p.m., then made his way to an aerobics room where at least 20 people were working out in a Latin Dance class, police said.
Internet Bully Member	Fri Aug 28 14:46:17 Hey, an 8 year old was killed by an UZI that was own by a private citizen in Massachusetts at a Gun shoot. Which occurred in 2008, that technically destroys his claim.
Fed Bureau Of Utopia Member	Fri Aug 28 16:19:28 This thread is full of ignorance. Randal Graves: Would it be possible that even though the reports are conflicting that perhaps the one you provided made an error or incorrectly described the weapons, as I am sure there are other reports including the police report itself describing what the shooter used? JB/JW Whichever: The claim about in 50 years, yadda, yadda. I bring your attention to an old man named Carl Drega. Killed multiple police officers in New Hampshire and several others, used an automatic rifle the specific model a fully-automatic AR-15. According to reports from the FBI and Police, don't ask for the source as I would have to dig up so I am going by memory, not only purchased it but also a vest. I still think there is a memorial on the police depts. website describing the encounter.
Fed Bureau of Utopia Member	Fri Aug 28 16:22:38 Oh forgot to mention the year, happend in 1997 or 1998.
Jeddediah Wilkins Member	Fri Aug 28 16:44:19 Internet Bully, despite the fact he is an asshat, MIGHT have the single incident that would, in fact destroy my claim. We shall see.
hoER Member	Fri Aug 28 16:45:51 You think this may only have happened once in 50 years? Rofl... Hot date already over, Jason Bourne? I'm still waiting for the mighty unchallenged challenger to stop fleeing from this challenge: "To date, in the past 50 years, no one has been shot and killed with an automatic weapon owned by a private citizen." " Validate this claim. I'm still waiting for the mighty unchallenged challenger to stop fleeing from this challenge: "personal experience can never be used in any intellectual discipline" Validate this claim.
Jeddediah Wilkins Member	Fri Aug 28 16:48:34 Dude, chill. I told you I would. First off, I need to know, are you a girl or a guy? I promise it will not change my approach to debating with you.
hoER Member	Fri Aug 28 16:51:48 Shut up and just fucking FINALLY do it. Man, noone is harder to get to meet a challenge than the supreme self proclaimed unchallenged challenger from whom children and women flee.
Randal Graves Member	Fri Aug 28 19:28:55 "Randal Graves: Would it be possible that even though the reports are conflicting that perhaps the one you provided made an error or incorrectly described the weapons, as I am sure there are other reports including the police report itself describing what the shooter used?" Yes it would be possible. My point is that it is foolish to claim that you are the victor if there are conflicting reports. I'll concede that ABC report may be incorrect as it happens in journalism frequently. No big deal, not losing sleep over it. But, what you wrote about the shooting and what internet bully said, wouldn't that more or less discount JB's claim?
Forwyn Member	Fri Aug 28 20:59:51 Randal Graves, automatic pistols are banned anyways. The only use they currently hold in the US civilian world is in certain police precincts, which utilize glock 18s. If they're using an open-bolt TEC, MAC, HK, 1912, etc, they're already breaking the law.
Fed Bureau of Utopia Member	Sat Aug 29 07:14:50 "automatic pistols are banned anyways. " That is not entirely true. This is tricky and there are some loop holes. One, as mentioned in the Gun 101 thread if you get a permit and tax stamp registered with the government (ATF) you are allowed to legally have them. Two, regarding the 1934 NFA if you had made any machineguns prior to the 1986 ban and it is not for resale you are in the clear, however you would still have to go register it with ATF and if they do not allow you to register then it is illegal.
hoER Member	Sat Aug 29 07:16:31 And STILL he continues to hide when challenged...LOL
Internet Bully Member	Sat Aug 29 07:18:55 This is funny. I believe it's over now. From the website JB uses. Guncite.com Crime with Legally Owned Machine Guns In 1995 there were over 240,000 machine guns registered with the BATF. (Zawitz, Marianne,Bureau of Justice Statistics, Guns Used in Crime [PDF].) About half are owned by civilians and the other half by police departments and other governmental agencies (Gary Kleck, Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997.) Since 1934, there appear to have been at least two homicides committed with legally owned automatic weapons. One was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer (as opposed to a civilian). On September 15th, 1988, a 13-year veteran of the Dayton, Ohio police department, Patrolman Roger Waller, then 32, used his fully automatic MAC-11 .380 caliber submachine gun to kill a police informant, 52-year-old Lawrence Hileman. Patrolman Waller pleaded guilty in 1990, and he and an accomplice were sentenced to 18 years in prison. The 1986 'ban' on sales of new machine guns does not apply to purchases by law enforcement or government agencies. --- Thanks to the staff of the Columbus, Ohio Public Library for the details of the Waller case. Source: talk.politics.guns FAQ, part 2. The other homicide, possibly involving a legally owned machine gun, occurred on September 14, 1992, also in Ohio (source). In Targeting Guns, Kleck cites the director of BATF testifying before Congress that he knew of less than ten crimes that were committed with legally owned machine guns (no time period was specified). Kleck says these crimes could have been nothing more than violations of gun regulations such as failure to notify BATF after moving a registered gun between states. Hey, that is also within the 50 years. Well, isn't that special?
Internet Bully Member	Sat Aug 29 07:27:13 "And STILL he continues to hide when challenged...LOL " You know of course, he will come back and say how he was with some hot babe and none of us would understand that, because you know he is so uber cool the epitome of men of stature in such a modern age, and blah, blah. In the end, he was wrong and full of shit.
hoER Member	Sat Aug 29 08:31:37 Indeed...the immortal James Bond styled CHALLENGER that CHALLENGES anyone that everyone flees from his CHALLENGE and his PROOF and his EVIDENCE...is just full of shit...
Forwyn Member	Sat Aug 29 09:37:49 "One, as mentioned in the Gun 101 thread if you get a permit and tax stamp registered with the government (ATF) you are allowed to legally have them." i.e. you pay lots of money and submit to a background check "Two, regarding the 1934 NFA if you had made any machineguns prior to the 1986 ban and it is not for resale you are in the clear, however you would still have to go register it with ATF and if they do not allow you to register then it is illegal." i.e. you're a weapons manufacturer/collector, and statistically less likely to go bonkers on a couple cops with a machine gun. :P -- "Forwyn Member Fri Aug 28 12:05:48 Are you seriously making a thread dedicated to JW, dude? Based on that obviously false comment? fail." Just have to repeat myself. The extent that this thread has gone on is laughable.
Jeddediah Wilkins Member	Sat Aug 29 09:48:02 Since 1934, there appear to have been at least two homicides committed with legally owned automatic weapons... ...Patrolman Roger Waller, then 32, used his fully automatic MAC-11 .380 caliber submachine gun to kill a police informant,... The other homicide, *POSSIBLY* involving a legally owned machine gun, occurred on September 14, 1992, also in Ohio... So, we are up to anywhere from 2 to 3 incidents in the past 50 years where someone was killed with a legally owned, registered automatic "assault" type weapon or submachine gun. Bravo. My statement has been proven false through the only means it could have been done so: by providing documented evidence that it had actually occurred. I gladly concede defeat on this single, isolated issue. Congratulations gun grabbers: You have proven that in the past 50 years, more people have choked to death on a coffee bean than have been killed with automatic weapons. I say we ban coffee beans.
Jeddediah Wilkins Member	Sat Aug 29 09:48:55 3 people since 1934. Awesome.
hoER Member	Sat Aug 29 09:52:25 No, what this shows is how impossible it is to get you to substantiate your claims. All I asked for originally was substantiation for this claim. Now you can pretend that you are wholly unaware of standard procedures at UP to ask for verification for claims made, but you, I and everyone else knows it was perfectly reasonable to ask for that. What this DOES show is that extracting substantiation for your claims, which is something you have been BRAGGING that you do so well, is like pulling a dragons tooth. And you STILL havent substantikated the first claim. What an empty fraud you are lol...
hoER Member	Sat Aug 29 09:54:36 In fact, you still havent substantiated ANY of them yet...after all these threads and time...
Internet Bully Member	Sat Aug 29 09:58:00 Downplay it all you want tweedle dick. But you've made a claim and you were proven wrong.
Multi No. 27 New Member	Sat Aug 29 13:26:58 Yeah, tweedle dick. But you made a claim you wer provned rwrong
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