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Utopia Talk / Movie Talk / (TV) Watchmen
Cherub Cow
Mon Oct 28 01:38:15
After I wrote too much about episode 2, I figured this deserves its own thread, though I have mixed feelings about the show so far.

(UP thread for episode 1: http://www...hread=84886&time=1571918559463 )
Cherub Cow
Mon Oct 28 01:38:23
@Watchmen S1E2: "Martial Feats of Comanche Horsemanship"

I figured I'd give this show three episodes before abandoning it for not being worth the time. After the second episode, things seem to be on track for that plan. It's just not too interesting, and it has these annoying plot pause-for-effect moments where things were (apparently) supposed to be intense revelations.. whereas, for the viewer (or me anyways) they're just matter-of-fact moments. This is something that typically occurs in bad TV such as "Supergirl", "Grey's Anatomy", or cheesy soap operas, so it's no wonder that Damon Lindelof plots things out in this way (though episode 1&2 director Nicole Kassell should also take the blame).


Like, Angela finding out that Will Reeves is her grandfather.. Okay, that's not unexpected, and it doesn't exactly shatter her character's worldview that she has a grandfather who's trying to educate her on the latent racism of the person she admired. It's *totally* expected, and even from the initial setup moments with Chief Crawford, it should be pretty obvious to most viewers that he has a secret criminality (his cocaine use and his quick judgment to give officers firearms for 24 hours) and is somehow behind or involved in the White Night (i.e., it would be a surprise if Crawford *didn't* orchestrate the White Night to put himself in greater control and that Angela surviving it was an unintended outcome (maybe Judd's emotional connection to her meant that he couldn't quite kill her? Or he wasn't supposed to kill her, just wound her?)). Yet, with Lindelof being behind the show's viewers, it could be that the show doesn't "reveal" (not a true reveal since it should already be known) Crawford to be affiliated with the Rorschach-masked Seventh Kavalry for another couple of episodes. They definitely should have "revealed" it this episode, but I guess they think that Angela needs to do more digging to find that out. Will Reeves seems to think that it would blow Angela's mind to know it all too quickly, but it's a mistake if the show thinks that viewers are as behind the curve as Angela has turned out to be.

The other stuff going on in the show doesn't amount to much yet. Angela's adopted son, Topher (excessively angry boy who looks like excessively angry girl from "Logan"), seems to have Dr. Manhattan-like abilities (floating that model while building it), but cool powers in the hands of a child's mind usually just end up being Deus Ex Machinas for later. Like, maybe Angela will be in trouble, and Topher will vaporize someone — Dr. Manhattan style — revealing that he's the son of Silk Spectre II and Dr. Manhattan, placed under Angela's protection. That would be another "too late for the viewer to care" plot development. They have already failed to get ahead of that in an interesting way.

It also looks like Veidt's (Jeremy Irons') insanity is being developed a little more, but again, it's not that interesting. Like, yeah, he's cloning people and killing them to act out his fascination with time and with Dr. Manhattan. That's nice; one must stay busy in retirement, anyways. All that means is that he's waiting for a plan to come into focus, but *that* just means that in poorly-directed format he can be spliced into a later "reveal" moment (the impending watch battery suicide vest attack) as being behind everything. That is, it *should* be an interesting and even casual reveal, but the way the show is structured, for viewers it'll be more like, "Yeah. We knew already. Get over it."

The obvious move for the season based on pacing so far would be that Veidt is the one actively working to discredit Rorschach's journal by aligning Rorschach with the Seventh Kavalry. (*That* could be interesting — if they did it well (they won't).) Apparently, Nite Owl II has already arrived to remove Will Reeves (who else could grab an entire car? The smaller version of Owl's flying machine that the police have would not be up to the task), which means that Will Reeves wants the truth to be known regardless of the consequences (Rorschach-style), but Nite Owl II and Silk Spectre II don't want Reeves messing with the game board. With Silk Spectre II coming onto the scene next episode as this FBI agent (revealed in the next episode preview), it could be that she's arrived for additional damage control (i.e., she was put in place by Veidt to further the narrative that the Seventh Kavalry are racist conspiracy theory loons, which, again, lets citizens in the show dismiss Rorschach's journal by association).

Angela keeps investigating Will's hints and discovers...
• that Veidt arranged for Crawford (a former KKK member) to come into power via a purging of the police force on the White Night,
• (hopefully) that Crawford was tasked with discrediting Rorschach's journal by aligning Rorschach with the racism of the Seventh Kavalry,
• that the Seventh Kavalry was given more power than they should have had via Veidt's sponsorship and Crawford's leadership,
• that Will Reeves is (likely) a former Watchmen (part of the original Minutemen?) and at least an insider (because he knows Nite Owl II and Silk Spectre II), that he saw things getting out of hand, and that he wanted his granddaughter to know that she was being used by Veidt.

The broader narrative is one of the "noble lie", like the conclusion of the Watchmen comic. People like Rorschach and America's black population have been driven underfoot such that when they see some truth in the world they have to be silenced for it, because the lie fixes problems in the short term. The return of Rorschach's journal was the truth finding its way to the surface again, so now Veidt has to silence the truth for his noble lie. But, again, people like Reeves and Angela will work to uncover the truth, so that maybe this time people can hear it. (I.e., Cheney did 9/11) ;)
Cherub Cow
Mon Nov 04 02:59:13
@Watchmen S1E3: "She Was Killed by Space Junk"

The show had another one of those moments where I guess audiences were supposed to be like, "Oh! Really??" This was at about 40 minutes when it is "revealed" that Jeremy Irons is Veidt... Umm.. yeah.. we fucking know. Get ahead of it, show writers.

And it was mostly just a character-building episode otherwise. Silk Spectre II is jealous of her lost youth, ultra-cynical, looking for a reason not to be. She had that boy-toy motel visit scene, which seems oddly derivative of Gillian Anderson's character in TV's "The Fall" (Anderson's character specifically selects another officer whom she thinks will be willing to have sex with her for the sake of a night's bodily needs). "Oddly", because maybe it's a stretch that these writers saw that show. It may just be an easily-conjured trope... Dr. Manhattan at least heard her call, and while it would make some sense to connect the falling car with the car that was grabbed by a Nite Owl II ship, from immediate context, Dr. Manhattan must have teleported it as a way of saying, "Message received." That gives Silk Spectre II a reason to have an emotional upswing.

A slight piece of news is that Veidt is being held captive as opposed to being away by his own design. That — coupled with Veidt trying to build a suit with a breathing apparatus that is capable of withstanding extreme cold — may mean that Dr. Manhattan built a giant prison for Veidt on Mars (i.e., Veidt is trying to escape Mars but needs a suit and ship capable of traveling to Earth). That may also mean that *Veidt* is not behind the Tulsa plot to make Rorschach's journal seem like conspiracy theory nonsense. It could just be Dr. Manhattan or Nite Owl II... They did say that Nite Owl II is in prison, so maybe there's another kid on the table, flying mom and dad's ship, or Nite Owl II escaped without anyone knowing.

Senator Keane seems likely to be a Seventh Kavalry plant. When Silk Spectre II makes her shot, he gives a look like, "That wasn't part of the plan." He may have intended to be taken then escape or something to make himself look heroic enough for the presidency (Probably he'll be president at the start of season 2?).

The pacing is awful. So far, this would be about 20 minutes of a movie, but they've stretched it to 3 hours of near-empty filler. They're going to be pulling teeth with these obvious plot developments, so I don't know if I'll keep watching.
Cherub Cow
Mon Nov 04 03:05:43
*"(i.e., Veidt is trying to escape Mars but needs a suit and ship capable of traveling to Earth)"

Correction. I just watched the next episode preview.. it looks like Veidt is building a teleporter, not a ship. They also showed a glimpse of Dr. Manhattan on Earth, so I've officially been dragged into next week's episode :(
Mon Nov 04 04:23:40
Recomend, CC?
Cherub Cow
Mon Nov 04 05:38:18
Not so far :/
It could be that it's just doing setup for good episodes later, but right now it's just not happening.
the wanderer
Fri Nov 08 23:04:26
i'm enjoying the show :p

i didn't know it was Veidt until you said so :p (although i haven't read any comics if that would've helped... i saw the newspaper saying Veidt was dead & assumed he was dead)

also him being on Mars was a good theory too, i had no idea what to make of the cold suit

the problem isn't the show, just you being too smart perhaps... but you didn't anticipate the Dr Manhattan dildo, didja?
Cherub Cow
Sat Nov 09 06:35:09
lol. Definitely didn't expect the dildo, though it was kind of matter-of-fact so I didn't laugh at the time :D
..And it weirdly fits her character, since she prefers orgasms with Dr. Manhattan but emotional connections with Nite Owl II ;D

I maybe do need to give the show more of a chance when it comes to plot developments. I think I'd just like it a lot more if they made their reveals in a low-key way. Mr. Robot has impressed me with that a lot. You'll get ahead of the characters, but then the narrator will say something directly to the audience like, "You knew all along, didn't you?", which works whether or not the viewer knew, whereas Watchmen makes the assumption that no one knew.

"i didn't know it was Veidt until you said so :p (although i haven't read any comics if that would've helped... i saw the newspaper saying Veidt was dead & assumed he was dead)"

Oh, yeah.. Comics may help, but I think the movie gives all the needed info if you've seen that. The newspaper thing seemed like a clue since they didn't know for sure that he was dead — just that he had been declared dead due to long absence. Then they show Jeremy Irons living a secluded life of riches with over-obedient servants, and the limited cast options point to him. Then for the kicker, on imdb they list Jeremy Irons as Veidt. Lol :D .. that might be cheating, though ;D
the wanderer
Sat Nov 09 11:41:49
i saw the movie just didn't know how much the show was connected... the limited previews i saw didn't seem to have clear overlap so didn't know if any familiar characters were going to be involved

i thought the Veidt newspaper was just an easter egg type reference (like the smiley face eggs & blood-drip on badge)
the wanderer
Sun Nov 10 22:43:08

-- Watchmen S1E4: If You Don't Like My Story, Write Your Own --

Veidt's artificial world seems confirmed... quite a weird one at that :p... could be the Moon rather than Mars

is slippery sewer guy a known character?

a weird show to be sure :p
Cherub Cow
Mon Nov 11 03:28:41
@intro: I'd forgotten about that Kenny Rogers and Dolly Parton "Islands in the Stream" song :D

@title ("If You Don't Like My Story, Write Your Own"): Is Damon Lindelof preemptively responding to the people who expect him to "Lost" this up? ;D

"Heaven is pretend."
Lulz, yes! \:D/

"could be the Moon rather than Mars"

Looks like it with that transition! I guess Dr. Manhattan wanted Mars to himself ;)

"is slippery sewer guy a known character?"

I'm not familiar with him... His greasy pig technique was certainly novel ;D ... maybe he's a private citizen aligned with the viewer who's figured out the back-plot and is working against the police and Kavalry?

That chase scene further painted Regina King's (Angela's) lack of physical presence. It wasn't easy to believe that she could keep up with a tall lanky runner-body while herself being short and stocky and running in heels...

[Me]: "and while it would make some sense to connect the falling car with the car that was grabbed by a Nite Owl II ship, from immediate context, Dr. Manhattan must have teleported it"

Oops. ¿Porque no los dos? ;D .. no.. just good timing I guess?
Trieu and Reeves being allied means that Nite Owl II really may be in prison (they don't need Nite Owl II to fly their ships)..

@farm couple:..hmm, pretty sure that showing people that you have access to their medical records would be illegal even in the Watchmen universe ;)
They had me wishing that they'd turn down Lady Trieu just to shut down her callous power, so good job if the writers wanted people to start out hating her :p

Looks like she's Veidt part II. Not even a thinly-veiled connection there with her buying Veidt's business. And with her being Vietnamese and her daughter having some kind of memories of a burning village, that puts her in an anti-Dr.Manhattan position since Dr. Manhattan brutalized Vietnam. She also said that she built her fortune through "advanced pharma and biomedical tech"; and with that clone baby she presented, that probably means that her daughter is a clone of herself (complete with latent memories of her own traumatic experience in Vietnam) and that she's been helping Veidt to escape. That is, maybe she gave Veidt clone technology for him to use for subjects and support and she's building the "clock" to help Veidt teleport back to Earth. So, once the clock is completed, Veidt puts on his spacesuit, launches himself through Dr. Mahattan's barrier, and is teleported the rest of the way by Trieu...

Also, Will Reeves being able to walk (another of those "not a big deal" reveals that was over-played on screen) could mean that those pills represent the fruit of Trieu's bio successes. I.e., maybe it's some kind of anti-aging medicine that kept Trieu young (explaining why she looks young and yet was in one of the villages that Dr. Manhattan brutalized) and why Reeves can walk. Then again, Trieu's clone daughter may just be her successor.. like she replaces herself with a fresh clone (complete with memories) as her clone body starts to fail. That probably better explains why her daughter has to sleep with IV therapy (Steps necessary to keep the clone viable). It could also explain why Reeves still looks old; the pills help him walk, but he's not young-looking.

And their "tick tock, tick tock" ending seems to be the awaited connection between them (Trieu and Reeves) and the Seventh Kavalry. Silk Spectre II must not know ( #TeamManhattan ). Reeves also (sort of) made it seem like his meddling with Angela has been part of the plan as opposed to unplanned interference (This from that conversation he had with Trieu about gradually preparing people to hear the truth). So, I still think that means that he's getting her ready to learn that Rorschach's journal was true, but it's not part of working against Veidt/Trieu.. it's probably more like recruiting his own successor for Veidt support. That may be why they want Veidt back: get his genetic material so that Veidt can continue to ensure that his new world order can persist beyond his normal lifespan.

Not sure why they did that weird misandrist feminist moment before meeting Trieu ("So sorry. Ladies only."). Either the show wanted to pass the Bechdel Test, or that was just some random stuff Trieu's daughter said because the other FBI agent couldn't be trusted with high level info...

Anyways, the show may be growing on me. I was only annoyed by one scene in this episode ;D .. I do hope that they don't make a big deal out of it if it turns out that Silk Spectre II speaks Vietnamese and understood that coded conversation between Angela and Trieu.. but the show can't be perfect I guess ;)
the wanderer
Mon Nov 11 21:15:02
some kind of anti-aging pills makes sense (though didn't occur to me :p), as they did note he'd be over 100 years old

I assumed the IV was somehow related to how she gets the memories but your theory may be better :p
Cherub Cow
Mon Nov 18 05:01:14
@Watchmen S01E05: "Little Fear of Lightning"

..the bearded guy from the focus group was Steve Coulter.. he played Reg in Walking Dead (husband of Alexandria leader Deanna Monroe; his throat was cut by the drunken doctor) and he was Owens' dad in season 1 of the Purge...

..guess they took the "tin foil hat" thing to a subtle level with Looking Glass' trucker hat :D

@25 minutes: They showed a little more subtly by just montaging frames of current Looking Glass with 1985 Looking Glass. It was pretty clear in the opening scene that it was Looking Glass (that body type, that face, and being from Tulsa), so the montage wasn't necessary at all, but they at least didn't do a "dun dun dun!" moment with this "reveal". Doing the same with the hat right afterwards was borderline annoying, though.

Nice historical re-write with "Schindler's List" red-coat girl being in fictional squid apocalypse "Pale Horse" movie ;)

@39 minutes: I was just waiting for him to not check his weapon. Drunk or not, you still make sure it's loaded with actual rounds and is functional.. Blanks have an obvious tip to them that he could have caught just by looking at the cylinder or removing a round.

@41: Woohoo! There's the senator ("Seventh Kavalry plant") :p
His comment about the racism of the Kavalry drones and his insider knowledge sort of confirms that he's just using them to hide the truth of the video and of Rorschach's journal. Looks like this show will fulfill my personal hope of the show saying that right wing conspiracy theories can be a good place to hide the truth (i.e., discredit the truth by aligning it with racists) ;D

[Me after S01E03]: "That may also mean that *Veidt* is not behind the Tulsa plot to make Rorschach's journal seem like conspiracy theory nonsense."

With that VHS-quality 1985 video, looks like Veidt *can* still be part of the plot. He set all of this in motion in 1985, so he doesn't need to have present communications to keep it going. Makes sense that his original plan wouldn't stop at the '85 explosion.

[tw]: "could be the Moon rather than Mars"

The transition was [sort of] a lie!! ;D
I guess they felt like *any* moon counted — not just Earth's. They even played Debussy's « Clair de lune » ("moonlight") during Veidt's SOS message-making. Still, looks like it was a moon of Jupiter, maybe Europa or Ganymede (ice moons). His message was "Save Me D—", and we don't get to see the rest of the name. Don't think they've revealed any D— names, but Lady Trieu seems likely.

[Me]: "could mean that those pills represent the fruit of Trieu's bio successes ... Trieu's clone daughter may just be her successor.. like she replaces herself with a fresh clone (complete with memories) as her clone body starts to fail."

Arg! Was so close ;) .. since the pills were revealed to be memories, that must be how Trieu gives her memories to her clone daughter. Looks like Angela will get to sort out a bunch of new memories while she's in jail.

The speculation over the identity of "Hooded Justice" from the show-within-a-show could mean that Will Reeves was actually Hooded Justice... that would be a stretch (people would definitely be able to figure out Hooded Justice's skin color, even with the mask, due to the eye holes), but I could see this show overlooking that detail when they were writing (looks good on paper, doesn't make sense in reality). Before this episode, I just thought he was a forgotten or minimized member of the Minutemen.

Otherwise, not too much happening this episode. Mostly just things being confirmed and Looking Glass getting character work. But I'm on board now :) .. sticking with the show despite its rough start.
the wanderer
Mon Nov 18 22:58:29
i enjoyed the character work! ... although will be a shame if they are killing him off :p

(plus the episode let movie people understand the squid thing)

i was wondering if it's "Save Me Dr." w/ or w/o "Manhattan" :p
(i mean it seems like it would have to be Dr. M who put him there... but maybe there's some other twist...)

spelling out a rescue message with frozen corpses who were originally babies caught in lobster traps certainly isn't an idea i'd have come up with on my own :p good job, writers!
Cherub Cow
Tue Nov 19 02:45:35
I wonder if he was planning to use them as a signal when he was shooting them through the barrier, or if he just ran so many tests that using the bodies just became a good use of available materials ;D

"although will be a shame if they are killing him off :p"

True! I'm hoping this'll be his moment to show his fighting skills. Plus, surviving throws a wrench into the senator's plans, which seems necessary to the writing :)

"(i mean it seems like it would have to be Dr. M who put him there... but maybe there's some other twist...)"

That's why I don't think it's a message to Dr. Manhattan :p .. Dr. Manhattan put him there (punishment for 1985?), so if Manhattan saw that Veidt was able to escape the bubble, he'd probably visit and destroy Veidt's escape advancements. Hmm... but yeah, if there's a twist, and if it *was* "SAVE ME D[R. M]", then it could be that Veidt asked Dr. Manhattan to build that place so Veidt could be away from Earth on vacation, but then Veidt was marooned there? (Dr. Manhattan lost track of time? Wouldn't be the first time.) Veidt did have that line about it being a "paradise" at first and a "prison" later. I took that to mean that he didn't realize it was a prison until he explored the boundaries and/or just didn't mind being away, but if he expected it to be temporary, "paradise" to "prison" also fits.. and the "warden" of Veidt's bubble seems to have the job of keeping Veidt from leaving the bubble, but that could just be a safety precaution moreso than an *intentional* prison. And Veidt had that line about their "god" (Manhattan) abandoning them, which may apply to Veidt too (i.e., Manhattan forgot to retrieve him).

I'm still leaning more towards it being a message to Lady Trieu because her giant structure seems like a way to retrieve Veidt (not sure what else it could be?), but if it's to Dr. Manhattan, that'd be a good way to get Manhattan back into the story, and the writing seems to work for that possibility. Or! Lady Trieu still builds her teleporter to save Veidt, even though it's *now* the case that Dr. Manhattan could save Veidt. That'd be a waste of her efforts, though ;D
the wanderer
Tue Nov 19 11:40:21
have we seen something that shows Trieu building a teleporter? it doesn't seem like that's the reason as if she's already aware Veidt's there & needs teleporting, not sure he would need the rescue message

Veidt's been saying he's been there 4 years while it's been 30 years since the squid so not sure what to make of that (no planet orbits 4 times in 30 Earth years, i checked that too :p)

i was thinking whereas it seems Dr M had to have made that place... it would also have to be Dr M who could save him from it

but possibly Veidt's events are in the past, maybe someone has been flying out to that moon & retrieving him & returning for years & he soon catches up to present time

or the teleportation thing will happen... i dunno :p
Cherub Cow
Sun Nov 24 02:53:39
[tw]: "have we seen something that shows Trieu building a teleporter? it doesn't seem like that's the reason as if she's already aware Veidt's there & needs teleporting, not sure he would need the rescue message ... Veidt's been saying he's been there 4 years"

I just figured that the giant "clock" that she's building is some kind of teleporter or Dr.M-style power source. It would be consistent with her being the new Veidt: finding the human, non-superhero, technology way to tap into Dr. Manhattan's powers. My guess was that Trieu knew Veidt was in space but didn't know exactly where, so she was building the structure while searching, maybe using satellites or Juno to narrow in on Jupiter's moons based on tracking the uses of Manhattan's powers (since it's established that the discharge of Manhattan's powers can be tracked). So, once Veidt's location has been pinpointed, she can teleport him.

Or, if she *has* known that he's there (which I think is more likely after you pointing out that Veidt has only been there for 4 years, plus it makes sense with Juno seemingly pointed at Veidt's location — that could be Trieu's way of watching the barrier), that could mean that Europa was an established vacation spot for Veidt (a place for research without oversight?), and he just got marooned on his latest trip there. That could also mean that Trieu was activated automatically as Veidt's contingency plan for return (i.e., if Manhattan doesn't teleport him back, Trieu needs to build the teleporter and return him). But Veidt would still need to step outside of Manhattan's shielding before he could escape. By showing Trieu that he can safely exit the shielding, she would know that she can teleport him... "SAVE ME D[R. M]" could even work in that case, because Veidt may have lost confidence in Trieu and just hopes that Manhattan can remember his obligations ;)

I've clearly moved away from thinking that Veidt was put on Europa as punishment.. I may need to re-watch some episodes ;p

[Me]: "I wonder if he was planning to use them as a signal when he was shooting them through the barrier, or if he just ran so many tests that using the bodies just became a good use of available materials ;D"

I just realized that the scene where he had killed all of his servant-clones (their dead bodies shown in the dining room) was him planning to use them as a signal... There was a follow-up scene where he was using a specific trajectory for the dead bodies, so he was putting them where he could quickly spell out his message...
the wanderer
Sun Nov 24 22:33:09

S1:E6 - This Extraordinary Being

well they addressed none of ^these questions :p ... but white people are terrible!

the wanderer
Sun Nov 24 22:59:37
unrelated to the new episode, i'm not sold on the Veidt / Trieu connection (despite all that letter similarity that i just noticed... it's practically Veidt backward if you have bad handwriting :p)....

Veidt was not ever motivated by evil intentions (that i'm aware of) whereas she seems more of a sinister plotter

although grandpa doesn't seem motivated by evil either & they are partnered, so i dunno... :p

could be another plan that seems evil only based on perspective
Cherub Cow
Mon Nov 25 01:39:20
"it's practically Veidt backward if you have bad handwriting"

Good catch! It seems to work best when mirroring cursive with just a little line added to the "d":

"whereas she seems more of a sinister plotter ... could be another plan that seems evil only based on perspective"

Veidt was megalomaniacal, so that fits for both of them. Both seem ready to sacrifice a big chunk of people to prevent bigger issues. Trieu will probably let the Seventh Kavalry suicide attack a major target (40 different places again, like the White Night?) just so the Veidt secret can remain buried... but Trieu definitely lacks Veidt's subtly. Trieu likes to belittle people to feign intelligence, whereas Veidt let his intelligence show itself by how collected he was. It could just be because the actress who plays Trieu (Hong Chau) isn't smart and doesn't know how to play a smart person, though.. because if you took her lines and had Matthew Goode (Veidt from the movie) deliver them, they would probably work..

A potential loose end to Trieu and Reeves being behind the Kavalry was that Reeves didn't seem to know why Judd Crawford had kept his ancestral KKK uniform (Reeves had made up his mind and called it "pride"). Crawford made it clear in that dialogue that he's not an actual racist and that he kept the uniform to remind himself of his family's great shame (his motivation for now helping), but the Reeves actor played the scene like he didn't believe it or didn't even hear it. If killing Crawford was part of a plan to remove the local leader of the Kavalry so that they'd be riled up for revenge, then there wouldn't have been harm in honesty for Crawford's final moments. That means that Reeves may have just been doing it for more vigilante sport — meant to be mirrored against his killing of the Cyclops KKK peeps. Then again, he may just have enjoyed the sport while also putting a plan together.. like he didn't know the truth about Crawford, but Crawford still needed to die for the plan.

Alternate possibility: Trieu is a reversal of Veidt in the sense that she *wants* the truth to be known and is derailing Veidt's plans with the Kavalry...

Also, not a realistic implementation of getting Crawford to hang himself. They showed Crawford step off of a small ladder (a foot, maybe?), but then showed him hanging several feet off the ground. When showing an unlikely possibility (here, hypnotism), continuity errors like that can be a big deal... like, in this case, Reeves still would have needed to get rid of a large ladder afterwards...

"well they addressed none of ^these questions :p"

At least Hooded Justice was confirmed! :p
This was episode 6, and it was obvious from episode 2 that Reeves was a former member of the Minutemen, and at least since last episode it was pretty obvious that he was Hooded Justice... so the show is only like, 5 episodes behind the viewer ;D

This episode clarified how he could hide his skin color despite the eye holes. Not sure that's believable, but they gave it a shot. This could be an equal stretch, but that could also mean that the Rorschach character who shot Angela but left her alive on the White Night was actually Cal, Angela's husband, in white-face. It would explain why he didn't finish her and how Cal survived without any mention of a fight.

That means that this episode was just sort of going through the motions for Angela's sake, re-showing all of the former Hooded Justice scenes but with Reeves inserted to show the true version.. kind of like an hour long version of those "in case you missed it" montages at the end of the "Saw" movies. I was about to give director Stephen Williams a pass on not doing any "dun dun dun" moments.. until the ending, since that ending really hammered their intention of aligning Angela's ignorance and surprise with the viewer's "surprise" (just as those earlier scenes showing Angela transforming back and forth with Reeves were meant to do — attempts at establishing empathy between Reeves, Angela, and the viewer)... That wasn't awful, but an hour to catch up on this info was a little much. It's good for character-building, but the character it builds happens to be one that's way behind, which doesn't make her particularly virtuous. If the show wants the audience to develop with her, then they need to stop dropping those little plot hints everywhere (e.g., people watching the "Minutemen" show) and just follow her experience of events like was done with Rorschach. They could even still use the Minutemen TV show footage but show it afterwards..

They also seemed to show that the IV therapy helps consolidate the memories, since Trieu used it to bring Angela back to lucidity. A minor development..
the wanderer
Mon Nov 25 17:00:53
adding a little line seem like cheating :p but still interesting... i guess we'll see if any intentionality to the names eventually

the episode 2 weeks from now is titled "a god walks into a bar" so maybe some blue man coming!
Cherub Cow
Wed Nov 27 03:50:10
I hope so! I haven't seen Dr. Manhattan vaporize someone in *ages*! ;D
the wanderer
Sun Dec 01 22:58:07

S1.E7 - An Almost Religious Awe

i'll let you interpret the ending & what Cal's history was & what Trieu up to as i'm confused :p

i did note was Trieu mentioned launching a spacecraft & we know Veidt is not in same timeline (365 days having passed for him) so that leaves open the long travel out & back option... perhaps that statue is the real Veidt frozen in carbonite!

also of note was i had made a post in UP mentioning "Ernest Hemingway" (not someone i mention frequently :p) then right afterward, i watched the episode, and see there's Cal reading a book by Hemingway thus proving Dr. Manhattan is real!
Cherub Cow
Mon Dec 02 09:28:10
lulz. Maybe you got Zeitgeisted ;D
Reminds me: I once talked with someone about how I was reading Joyce's "A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man", and they also happened to be reading it in another city.. which seemed miraculous until I realized that that book had just been re-printed (new edition) and re-released and was on prominent display in lots of mass booksellers... so we got Zeitgeisted ;D

My while-watching comments:

The Silk Spectre II actress (Jean Smart from "Designing Women") really cannot act. She's had bad scenes before, and that scene with Mrs. Crawford was the latest. It's like she's just bleh-ing lines. Trieu's clone is a bad actress too ("Why *are* you a cop?"), but she's a kid, so it's expected.

..looks like you were right about Veidt being behind the normal show runtime! :D

..it's kind of a let-down if Trieu's clone is just her mom instead of herself *and* her mom. I was hoping Trieu's mom was the original, Trieu (clone 1) took her mom's memory, and Trieu's daughter (clone 2) is taking her combined memories. Still possible, but they previously hinted at her stated truth (re-making her mom) when Trieu mentioned how Vietnamese culture venerates elders, so it may just be that. Bummer.

Trieu bought MIT at 19? Lulz. That's world-breaking even for Watchmen power levels. MIT wouldn't sell, but they'd take her donations.

Trieu's speech about Dr. Manhattan not listening reminds me of Titus' speech in Titus Andronicus: "If any power pities wretched tears, / To that I call!" The theme being that even the most pitiful suffering goes unheard or remains unimportant to gods and universal powers, if even minor powers like Manhattan or TNG's Q exist anywhere (Titus suffered to that point and suffers even more afterwards, receiving no help despite having "deserving" prayers).

After watching:

"i'll let you interpret the ending & what Cal's history was & what Trieu up to as i'm confused :p"

That surprised me! Not *shocked*, but yeah :p .. I didn't expect them to come through on Dr. Manhattan hiding in human form. They hinted at it with Reeves in episode 2 (his "what if?" question while talking with Angela), but it seemed stupid — not because Manhattan wouldn't have that power but because he would only care so much about human concerns like "blending in". The biggest evidence they have for that plot development is Dr. Manhattan turning down his skin brightness for television. Oh well, that bell was rung.

So this (maybe?) means that Dr. Manhattan realized that to stop being distant from humanity he needed to dumb himself down, re-experiencing life through human subjectivity (to channel Bill Hicks ;p ). That makes sense with their showing "Cal" reading "For Whom the Bell Tolls". As per John Donne and Ernest Hemingway themes around that book, Dr. Manhattan probably felt connected to humanity even when he tried to distance himself from it, and.. maybe to further the metaphor.. with "fascism" on the rise (the Cyclops/Kavalry peeps rising like Spanish fascism was rising in the Hemingway work), Dr. Manhattan would feel a need to intervene to save humanity.. (ignoring how lame that is for the moment)

Not sure I see how he chose to be with Angela. If they don't write it off as random pre-determinism, we know that Angela's grand-mother had another heart attack, which would leave her stranded in Vietnam again, and we know that Angela claims to have moved from Vietnam with "Cal" years before (10 years? Not sure exactly), so Dr. Manhattan must have come up with the plan to become "Cal" while Angela was living in Vietnam.. and that's kind of a blank spot on the show. A 5th-dimensional being deciding to reach out to the granddaughter of a Minutemen member seems thin, but maybe they'll say that he marvels at the unlikelihood of her very existence — like he did with Silk Spectre II — since Angela's grand-father barely survived the Tulsa Massacre, then she barely survives the explosion that killed her parents. Her connection to Tulsa would also give him pretext for returning there with her.. like he knows that he needs to go to Tulsa to stop the "fascists", so he embeds himself with a Tulsa native and waits for his vision of the future to catch up to present day. Kind of a stretch if the writing chooses that path (just go directly to Tulsa!), but whatever. This at least may explain where "Cal" was when Angela was shot; he was probably playing the scared human, but when Angela was about to be finished off, Manhattan woke up and vaporized the attacker. It also must explain why Topher's (Angela's adopted kid's) model was floating.. Not because Topher has powers, like I thought before, but because "Cal" must have been floating it subconsciously.

This fascism-fighting story starts to confirm a worry I had while watching the first episode: "if they're only erroneously saying that "Rorschach [was right-wing so he must have been racist; and anyone who believed his journal would be a right-wing, KKK, racist, copy-cat]", then this show is dead in the water" (UP thread: http://www...hread=84886&time=1571918559463 ). I was hoping that Senator Keane was only *manipulating* racists to conceal Rorschach's/Veidt's truth, but Keane's comment ("It is extremely difficult to be a white man in America right now") looks to be right out of a Hollywood-DNC, Daily Show, Adorno joke-book about how racist and misguided people with "white privilege" must be to lash out at identity politics. So Keane, despite knowing the master plan and knowing that Rorschach was telling the truth, was just developed into an archetypal racist. Zero nuance.

That leaves Veidt, the master plan-maker. If Veidt *wasn't* killed and instead arrived alive in that spacecraft that crashed onto that farmland that Trieu purchased or he will be returned otherwise (still holding onto that teleporter plot), then nuance may still be possible. He *may* have arranged for Keane to not know any better (*Veidt* capable of enough nuance to weaponize racists to keep his plan a secret), but you may be right about carbonite Veidt, and if they really kill Veidt, that kills room for nuance, and the show just becomes a thinly-veiled excuse for an intersectional parade to fight those pesky white right-wing fascist racists bent on race eugenics by using Dr. Manhattan's powers to directly purge undesirables. Such risky story-telling! So brave! :/

And now Lady Trieu... Jane Crawford mentioned to Silk Spectre II that "that was the *original* idea, but something extraordinary happened, and suddenly 'president' seemed a bit small potatoes." So maybe the Kavalry was following Veidt's plans to get Keane elected (and distort Rorschach's journal? No? Not anymore?), but Veidt didn't count on Keane being a legit racist, which leads to the present situation of Keane finding out how to steal Manhattan's abilities, and now Veidt/Trieu need to stop them (i.e., stop Keane, Crawford, and Kavalry/Cyclops). That seems very roundabout. Trieu would have the resources to just kill the Kavalry members outright. The Kavalry clearly have only recently gotten close to a functional intrinsic field generator, so they weren't exactly untouchable. If Trieu can buy MIT, then she can buy a kill squad. If that detail *wasn't* overlooked, then her big plan was to force Dr. Manhattan out into the open so *she* can use his powers, maybe to super-charge her clock. Or, the clock was built to kill Dr. Manhattan. It's stupid if it was built to kill Manhattanized Kavalary people because again: kill squad, so a weapon against or channeling Dr. Manhattan has more sense. (Channel Manhattan to teleport Veidt? No? That's gone too? ;) )

Oh, and Angela freaking out about that elephant transfusion... I'm wondering if that elephant was just another of Damon Lindelof's "Lost" polar bears.. like, a weird anomaly meant to seem mysterious and weird which doesn't amount to anything sensible or meaningful. The elephant was in a pretty small room, so we know that Lady Trieu isn't an animal rights advocate.
the wanderer
Mon Dec 02 12:19:49
i had forgotten about the crash on farmland... ok, so i'll say Veidt had to be frozen in [carbonite w/ a new name] for transport & that's him in the 'statue' which arrived in the crashed ship

and why she 'made' him old when asked about the 'statue'... not sure what the process is to unfreeze him or why not done yet, maybe takes time

Trieu mentioned her plan was to save humanity so that leaves open the Veidt-style villain... seems like she has more than just plans to stop the Kavalry, something semi-sinister has to happen w/ her but defensible from a point of view :p


i was trying to figure out the ending dialogue w/ Cal & thought maybe Cal had a terminal illness & Dr M merged w/ him to extend his life or something (so the 'it was your idea' was to Cal)

but maybe there never was a Cal? (so the 'it was your idea' was to John?)

that one doesn't really explain the 'done so we could be together' part though

in any case we still have the issue of why he chose to be that person, but you have some good ideas on that... i imagine they'll give us some explanation next episode when they walk into a bar

Cherub Cow
Tue Dec 03 14:20:50
"ok, so i'll say Veidt had to be frozen in [carbonite w/ a new name] for transport & that's him in the 'statue' which arrived in the crashed ship"

Incorporating that with his trial, he may have been frozen/transmuted by the servant-clones as punishment? Then Trieu gets him brought back, and she needs Manhattan's powers to transmute him back into human form?

"but maybe there never was a Cal? (so the 'it was your idea' was to John?) [/] that one doesn't really explain the 'done so we could be together' part though"

That's how I took it — that she was talking past Cal to John. And it could make sense for them being together if it was a matter of safety. Silk Spectre II probably wasn't too safe being a mortal public figure with Manhattan being a super power.. people may have tried to exploit her to get to Manhattan.
the wanderer
Tue Dec 03 17:15:01
yeah, that's possible the carbonite not being punishment unrelated to transport

we still need to know who "D" is... i don't think we know Lady Trieu's first name

or could be 'DAUGHTER'... would be a bit of an odd choice though :p ...unless her name is a lot longer (but could be done just for the audience reveal maybe rather than being sensible)
the wanderer
Tue Dec 03 17:15:55
*remove that 'not' after carbo
Cherub Cow
Wed Dec 04 07:29:03
"we still need to know who "D" is... i don't think we know Lady Trieu's first name"

True! They showed that "D" signal again in the "previously on Watchmen" recap, so it seemed like we'd get an answer this episode. Not too many choices in the (known) cast list..
- Dr. Manhattan
- "D" for "Detective"; Unlikely; would be weird if Veidt knew Angela, and I don't think she's a detective, just an officer
- Daniel/Dan Dreiberg (Nite Owl II); ("SAVE ME DAN") this could be a nice play. He's supposed to be in prison, but this could be a way to bring him back into the story... Not sure when he was jailed, though. I got the impression he was jailed before Veidt went away, so it'd be weird to ask for a jailed person's help

After those options, it's right back to mystery names again ;)
the wanderer
Sun Dec 08 23:04:47

S1.E8 A God Walks into a Bar

a Dr M episode!

there's scenes at the end (audio beginning during credits) & continuing afterwards... hopefully that hasn't been happening all along :p i tend to stop at credits to avoid teasers for the next week

well, a lot of stuff cleared up... i may have to diagram out some timeline stuff :p... so it seems when Veidt said he had been there 4 years, that was from a starting point of 10 years ago

and not a prison, you were close with "could be that Veidt asked Dr. Manhattan to build that place so Veidt could be away from Earth on vacation"

& you were right about Cal using his powers to save Angela

not sure it's clear why he was ever w/ Angela to begin with

anyway, i liked the episode as i enjoy Dr M :p

the wanderer
Mon Dec 09 00:55:20
i may have to watch again, but i guess the idea is he was unsatisfied on Europa, came back & perhaps to Dr M festival just as easy to blend in, then it was merely seeing her & sensing the emptiness that drew him in (then fall in love due to future incident which is simultaneous for him)

they had a few incidents of him referencing the past/future saying 'you are talking about A' then moments pass & him saying '-now-, you are talking about B' things which are a bit off giving impression of time passing, whereas that person would be talking about both A & B at both points in time for Dr M... so not technically wrong either :p

overall, i think they did a good job w/ his temporal issues (although probably some errors if examined closer :p)
Cherub Cow
Mon Dec 09 06:25:32
Difficult (at first) to listen to a normal-voiced actor playing Dr. Manhattan after Billy Crudup's voice was so awesome for it.

Nice character episode. No new info — mostly confirmations (Veidt's location, the reason for him being marooned on "paradise", Cal's killing of the Kavalary guy) — but good to see it unfold.

"anyway, i liked the episode as i enjoy Dr M :p"

Me too! Fifth dimensional experience is fun. It was cut together pretty nicely, too. Episode director Nicole Kassell may not be totally incompetent after all ;)

"(then fall in love due to future incident which is simultaneous for him)"

With his pre-determinism issues, that moment of love could be his only motive, and he just fell into a pattern around that. It could also have been his attraction to his own death, since Manhattan might be most fascinated by and drawn to situations where his powers have lapses.. so he was drawn to that 10-year lapse with Angela and drawn to his [death?] at the hands of the Kavalry.. That parallels nicely with Veidt; they both wanted to create something and then die (an old Fruedian trope of males of a species expiring in the act of creation or when finally satisfied), but Veidt resists giving up because he has more to create and isn't satisfied with his works.

Dr. Manhattan's talk of willfully transferring his powers may not have just been for the sake of the Kavalary plot either. Maybe he transferred them, and *that*'s why Topher was able to float his model while building it (taking back my thought that Manhattan was doing it subconsciously). Maybe future Topher consented to having the powers, so current Topher is getting doses of those powers, and he'll grow into greater powers as he matures into them (maybe even saved from Manhattan's 5th dimensional numbness).. like Uncle Ben's "with great power comes great responsibility" line ;)

"so it seems when Veidt said he had been there 4 years, that was from a starting point of 10 years ago"

And don't forget to add another year for his trial! They puffed up his stay there by saying that the trial lasted an entire year. Only 5 years of development to go! A spaceship trip from Europa could be a good chunk of that.

"hopefully that hasn't been happening all along :p"

It hasn't! :D .. I let the credits run for the music after watching. This was the first time that they've done that.

After Veidt's in-progress escape was shown, now I'm doubting that he'll be transmuted by the clones as *punishment*.. might be back to it happening for transportation issues (your idea that it was to help him survive the journey). Or, that was just a statue after all? Their moon transition turned out to be incomplete, so maybe their Veidt transition wasn't literal either.

Then again, the story also forces that we'll have to have time dedicated to explaining how the original "Adam" lost his "Eve" (Adam's character moment about his "isolation" means that story time will have to be dedicated there).. so it's possible that Veidt will be re-captured, hear that story, then be transmuted... Maybe Veidt could win over the warden and get help from him... so it still wouldn't be transmutation as punishment..

Veidt also had that line about "a little elephant told me [Manhattan's location on Europa]", so Damon Lindelof isn't giving up on his "Lost" polar bear plot version 2. We now know that transfusions from the elephant can stabilize a person's memories, and the elephant has some kind of powers that let it track Dr. Manhattan's actual position. Veidt was also in the business of engineering special animals, so probably he engineered a semi-5th dimensional being (the elephant) as a kind of seer. That elephant would then be how Trieu was able to locate Veidt after his disappearance, how Trieu learned about Cal being Manhattan, and (with luck) how she knows that Manhattan's powers may be up for grabs for her "clock".

Or! If this show wants to get crazy, Veidt *is* Trieu — big sex change and cosmetic surgery ;D .. lulz.. Jeremy Irons is 6' 2" and Hong Chau (Trieu) only 5', so they better fucking not do that ;p
the wanderer
Mon Dec 09 11:54:07
Veidt's timeline is unclear... it's the (-10 yrs + 4 yrs + 1 yr), but i don't think we know how long they've been hitting him w/ tomatoes / actually jailed (could be 2 years, could be 2 days)... i was wondering if he was going to get hit w/ near infinite tomatoes & the statue was him encased in tomato residue :p
(doesn't really work as the statue would need to be lumpy...)

& Trieu knows about Dr M as grandpa told her
(there was some 'where did you get that idea' 'he told me' exchange between Angela & Trieu)
Cherub Cow
Mon Dec 09 19:41:49
"& Trieu knows about Dr M as grandpa told her"

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. The grandpa knew everything. That elephant is still a seer, though ;D
the wanderer
Mon Dec 09 21:50:47
I don't recall the dialogue but I believe we were led to believe Angela was tubed up to grandpa, but instead was the elephant... and we haven't seen grandpa lately iirc, so is it possible he's somehow fused with the elephant?

also, as a long-shot, I'll say the elephant is Trieu's father :p
the wanderer
Mon Dec 09 22:06:02
^ would make Trieu "a little elephant" :p

Or maybe her father fused with elephant like grandpa, if that's a thing...
the wanderer
Mon Dec 09 23:01:47
i rewatched most of last episode... Dr M said he teleported the three kids to her grandpa so he's probably not in the elephant :p (although kids would enjoy an elephant!)
Cherub Cow
Tue Dec 10 04:45:57
Maybe they've played up the elephant memory trope, so the elephant is the collective memory of a bunch of different people. That might account for how it stabilized Angela's memory; it has such a powerful certainty of memory that it can reinforce those memories in people who start forgetting or who have difficulty remembering. And/or it has a psychic link to all beings, so it's the ultimate spy tool ;)
the wanderer
Sun Dec 15 23:27:28

======= S1.E9 See How They Fly ========

\o/ some of my guesses were right! carbonite & daughter... & they even realized it would be weird to spell out daughter yet provided a reason... i was impressed :p

also, i didn't notice it last episode but there's that horseshoe he used for escape (probably took awhile to dig tunnel...) One of the butler clones weirdly offered him a horseshoe in episode 1... i can't recall how Veidt responded to it in that episode though... but suggests Dr M had them prepped to help his eventual escape all along (not really important, just noting :p)

no elephant info :/

Cherub Cow
Mon Dec 16 02:39:37
"You're just a man, Mr. Veidt. You have limitations."

They clarified that that wasn't misandrist feminism, but she delivered it like it was... They could have avoided that bullshit by having her say, "You're just a human," or, "You're just a mortal."
Yet, pop feminism aside, via Veidt's semen thief they also just admitted that intelligence is genetically heritable and maybe even that the intelligence of Western Caucasians can be stolen by other races. Oops ;)
Via Trieu, they also just admitted that an intelligent, capable person can start with nothing and become the most powerful person on Earth (the old "bootstraps" narrative that CNN actively hates).. so maybe this show is only *semi*-"woke" ;)

@13:30 "I will never call you daughter."
tw, you fuck! ;D
Good call! :D

@15:30 bullet catching
Now they straight recycle the writing?

Looks like you were right about the statue being space preservation too! :D

@32 minutes, Senator Keane talking:
This is one of those "In case you missed the entire season" explanation moments...

@"Just do it"
At least they saved the writing a little bit there. That scene of killing the senior Cyclops peeps was clearly meant to satisfy people who bought into the racism sub-plot, but they gave Jane Crawford some dimension beyond the "racists=bad" cliché by letting her shit on Reeves' letter.

@59 minutes, "That guy talks too much"
Veidt being knocked out was predictable, cliché, and fucking stupid. There's no way that a world-consistent Veidt would be taken by two halfwits. That was falsely-given empowerment; they had to make Veidt into an idiot in order to "defeat" him. A more consistent Veidt would have seen that possibility coming and had a plan prepared (certainly that would have been the case in 1985, so not having a plan *now* is just absurd), but this Veidt didn't have anything — not his speed or a plan — and just yelled angrily in defeat. And defeated by Silk Spectre II no less, whose actress ran that scene with a look of superiority that in a character-consistent story she would not have.

@ending pool step
Fuck, that was cliché.

"no elephant info :/"

Yeah. I think that confirms it to be another of Lindelof's "Lost" polar bears. They even replaced Veidt's "a little elephant told me" line with that scene where Trieu has found Dr. Manhattan's location — which was new information to Veidt. So *Trieu* told him, not a literal elephant.

So, way too many clichés in this episode. The writing was unimaginative and subservient to false empowerment issues. It sampled from comic book comic relief tropes that the "Watchmen" story actively avoided (hit with a fucking wrench from behind? Jerking away from the hit like Three Stooges?), it reverted to its most base possibility of hick white supremacist racists being the villains, it lied with that line about "You can't heal under a mask, Angela. Wounds need air" (That's not even true; wounds need protective environments, which sometimes means *no* air), and its big exposition scenes (Angela saying goodbye to John, Will talking to Angela) felt like forced season-rehashes that assumed way too much success in its former directors. And while I'm happy that the false intelligence of Trieu resulted in her death, I almost wish that the season had ended with her vaporizing all the main characters, forcing next season to deal with a difficult continuity. Instead, Lindelof tried to clear his plate so that he can read the opinions/critiques of better writers on Reddit — or wherever he stole his "Lost" re-writes from — and implement their ideas for a season 2.

In short, with season 1 complete, it's clear that this show is garbage that came from garbage and will return to garbage. It shat on the "Watchmen" universe, employed substandard directors, took liberties that it shouldn't have taken, and sold it under a flag of easily-digested social justice issues. It wasn't *all* bad, but right now I'm annoyed that I didn't stop at episode 1. :/
the wanderer
Mon Dec 16 12:14:14
well, as a minor fan of the universe (only saw movie), i liked it overall :p

I don't know Veidt's character beyond movie, but he's spent ~7 or 8 years on a moon going crazy & then was just unfrozen hours ago from some substance after many months or some years, so not sure he should be expected to be fully on his game.

Trieu's company logo was an elephant head... closest reason i can think of for him calling her a little elephant. Perhaps we can surmise her memory drugs were created by use of elephants... and maybe employed in advertising & merchandise.

...although not sure he could've known that at the time he said it to Dr M. (which was ~1 year after she told him & she was not yet a big success)
Trieu's timeline of success needs plotted :p
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